Red Haired Savage.5430

Out of all the builds posted so far RedShark's build would probably give you the most decent survivability without sacrificing a ton of damage.

> @"Eme.2018" said:

> > @"zionophir.6845" said:

> >

> > you don't start with 15. you start with 20. 20 is 100% pve damage... if you want to get the difference of 75% of pve and 25% of pve, get the numbers, subtract and the difference is what percent of the 100% pve damage...

>

> This is exactly my point. From a PvP perspective it makes no sense include PvE damage in the relation and it is actually pretty misleading. All you need is the relations between pre and post patch damage.

>

> So to put is clearly, there are two ways of calculating the post patch damage:

>

> You can either say it is equal to **33% of the previous PvP damage** or you can say it is equal to **25% of the PvE damage**. From a purely PvP perspective it makes no sense to use the latter.

We've been comparing it to its initial form at the beginning of PoF. Since then it's been nerfed by about 83%. And since the PvE aspect of it hasn't changed since launch it's what it's getting compared to as a benchmark.

> @"Eme.2018" said:

> > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > Damage per second is damage..... its literally what damage per second means.

> > its the damage that can be done in a second, therefore it is damage, as damage is a measure of damage while dps is a measure of damage.

>

> Meters per second is a measurement of speed, not distance.

> Joule per second is a measurement of power, not energy.

>

> But apparently damage per second is a measurement of damage. Makes sense.

FPS are your screen/frame rate. We just don't have a classification of what DPS is, maybe it's your damage rate?

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> Remember when people had to choose between offense and defense?

> Ruminating should be left for the cows. When people try to have the cake and eat it too, the result will not be kind to the eye.

>

> The only way I could see full counter getting all its power back would be by not being able to get it all back at the same time.

> Have its base full powers reduced, and bring them back separately into different traits. Some even improved a bit.

> * Base full counter would no longer cause daze, would no longer be unblockable, would no longer be able to crit, and the damage reduction would be reduced to 50%.

> Then each of the 3 major grandmaster traits would return one of those only:

> * Enchantment Collapse would bring back the daze, increased to 2s, and it would also multiply the effects of Dispelling Force.

> * Revenge Counter would return the 100% damage reduction, and give a bit of barrier by converting damage received during its duration to barrier.

> * Magebane tether would return the ability to crit and unblockable property, and make it always critical as a bonus.

>

> Specializations should specialize more. Look at daredevil. Imagine if they could bring all the powers of their 3 dodge replacements at the same time. I'd be insane. You have to choose one of them.

> Elite Specializations should make people choose more.

See the problem with this is that it would make sense, Anet doesn't like to do that. Something like this would have been nice out of the box and made sense at the beginning of PoF.

> @"DonkeyHaxor.4052" said:

> > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > > @"DonkeyHaxor.4052" said:

> > > I am a warrior, it was op and it did need a nerf.

> > >

> > > The reasoning for that boils down to, warrior doesnt need the damage it adds (especially being unblockable). Its such a good utility skill, why does it also need to be a damage skill? thats how you get unbalanced classes.

> > >

> > > The reason soulbeast is broken is because it can do everything. it has a ton of damage, sustain, it has a 5k heal that gives resistance for allies, it has a pet that drops every boon in the game. It's busted because it can do everything.

> > >

> > > Thats what warrior is right now, even without a busted full counter. Full counter is very balanced as it is, i really wish warrior players would stop complaining about it.

> >

> > Well then you'd be the first warrior main I've seen that seems to think it was OP, which you still haven't said why it was OP. You just said why boonbeast is OP. So please why was it OP?

>

> OK, i will spell it out for you even more.

>

> Full counter, the skill that, when struck by an enemy, used to apply on average 6k damage, as well as a small daze, as well as 1 stability, as well as an evade after getting hit. Now, you could trait this skill to be EVEN MORE powerful, by making it so when this attack deals damage to an enemy, you get a constantly ticking reveal + might stack + CC.

>

> So, in conclusion, spellbreaker had a single skill that has:

> Untraited: CC, evade, stab, 6k damage.

> Traited: all that PLUS another cc, 10 sec of reveal, 25 might.

>

> Now, with the nerfed full counter, you get all of that STILL, except you get 12 consistent might, and instead of 6k damage you do 1-2k damage.

>

> Was that enough of an explanation or should i try again

First off the only reason the stability is there is so you can actually use full counter because Anets bad at programming, if you notice it lasts the length of the FC charge up + the evade, if they knew how to program we wouldn't even have the stability. So now we're down to CC + evade + damage. As I've stated before the CC does little too nothing with the amount of stability/stun break floating around, so the lengthening of it doesn't do much of anything (not sure if I said it here or another thread). So now we have evade and damage that's not much of anything for a burst skill. As far as saying well it's got traits to make it more powerful, so do other professions on their class function skills. One more thing on class function skills other professions get more of them than we do so it does make sense that we'd have a few more things happen from ours.

> @"DonkeyHaxor.4052" said:

> > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > > @"DonkeyHaxor.4052" said:

> > > > @"Atticus.7194" said:

> > > > Lemme ask you something, why would someone bring a spellbreaker now? What exactly are they good at? Damage sponges? Nope. Damage dealers? Nope. Boon removal? Nope. Boon application? Nope. High mobility? Not really. CC application? Not really again. We have no role anymore; we can't really remove boons, we can't really punish attacks, we're okay at point control but other classes are better.

> > > >

> > > > Would this have initially ruined the spec? Nope, it would have crippled it. But with years worth of other subsequent nerfs it very much killed it this time around.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Ok dude, where are you getting that you dont do damage? what build are you running??? are you still playing defense dagger?? greatsword, axe, rampage all do insane damage.

> > >

> > > You dont have very much CC?? Bulls charge? shield bash? FULL COUNTER?? rampage??

> > >

> > > You dont have high mobility?? You can get from spawn on eternal colliseum, halfway to far node with gs 3 and gs 5.. not to mention you have bulls charge and rampage (are you noticing a trend here?)

> >

> > And if that the only thing that SB brought was the FC's CC. All of those other things you mentioned are just as effective if not more effective on core warrior.

>

> how are they "more" effective on core?? theyre the same exact skill on spellbreaker and on core..

Well if you're running SB you're more than likely running:

SB trait line

Discipline trait line

And then you're either running strength or you're running defense.

So you're either giving up:

Peak performance, forceful GS, and mmr/bp

Or you're giving up

Shield master/dogged March, adrenal health, auto defy pain, last stand/ci/rr

Depending on your choices you might be giving up the strength trait line for the defense trait line, so yes the listed skills would be less effective on a SB.

> @"DonkeyHaxor.4052" said:

> I am a warrior, it was op and it did need a nerf.

>

> The reasoning for that boils down to, warrior doesnt need the damage it adds (especially being unblockable). Its such a good utility skill, why does it also need to be a damage skill? thats how you get unbalanced classes.

>

> The reason soulbeast is broken is because it can do everything. it has a ton of damage, sustain, it has a 5k heal that gives resistance for allies, it has a pet that drops every boon in the game. It's busted because it can do everything.

>

> Thats what warrior is right now, even without a busted full counter. Full counter is very balanced as it is, i really wish warrior players would stop complaining about it.

Well then you'd be the first warrior main I've seen that seems to think it was OP, which you still haven't said why it was OP. You just said why boonbeast is OP. So please why was it OP?

> @"DonkeyHaxor.4052" said:

> > @"Atticus.7194" said:

> > Lemme ask you something, why would someone bring a spellbreaker now? What exactly are they good at? Damage sponges? Nope. Damage dealers? Nope. Boon removal? Nope. Boon application? Nope. High mobility? Not really. CC application? Not really again. We have no role anymore; we can't really remove boons, we can't really punish attacks, we're okay at point control but other classes are better.

> >

> > Would this have initially ruined the spec? Nope, it would have crippled it. But with years worth of other subsequent nerfs it very much killed it this time around.

> >

>

> Ok dude, where are you getting that you dont do damage? what build are you running??? are you still playing defense dagger?? greatsword, axe, rampage all do insane damage.

>

> You dont have very much CC?? Bulls charge? shield bash? FULL COUNTER?? rampage??

>

> You dont have high mobility?? You can get from spawn on eternal colliseum, halfway to far node with gs 3 and gs 5.. not to mention you have bulls charge and rampage (are you noticing a trend here?)

And if that the only thing that SB brought was the FC's CC. All of those other things you mentioned are just as effective if not more effective on core warrior.

> @"DonkeyHaxor.4052" said:

> > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > And we need to be more vocal we're one of the least vocal classes in the game, just look at the forums and it's easy to see. But yes nerfing a class defining skill like FC into the ground is a horrible idea. So much so that I've done as several others have done and gone back to core warrior for my competitive modes and been allot more successful.

>

> I'm just curious, why do you people think this skill is so bad now? sure it doesnt do 8k damage every 6 seconds now, but its a 1.5s daze, 1 stack of stab, and an evade ???

It's a burst it's supposed to hit harder than an auto attack, now it doesn't even do that. The lengthened daze means little too nothing with the amount of stability and stun breaks floating around now. So let me ask why you non-warriors think it was OP and needed nerfed?

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > > > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > > > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > > > > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > > > > > > So essentially now its just a block with a 1.5 daze, as a profession mechanic?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > With 360, 10.5 sec CD, unblockable, that removes a boon on CC and copy 3 condis traited. It still does too much as it currently stands. It is a block. It is not supposed to do much else.

> > > > >

> > > > > its not a block at all. It only nullifies damage and is stable. Conditions and other effects still can be applied to the warrior, the stability keeps them from being CCed, but its only one stack and there is enough time for teams t dispel the stability and then cc before the counter goes off.

> > > >

> > > > As Cloud said it's not a block it's a burst skill, even says so in the description. Bursts are supposed to do damage.

> > >

> > > Anet wanted it to be a skill used for defensive purpose only

> >

> > that is a hell of a statement, got anything to back that up?

>

> Anet patch notes: “FC has different uses in competitive game modes compared to PvE.” They did not say it out right here, but they nerfed it’s damage by 75%. It is crystal clear that they are eluding to FC to be a dps skill in PvE and block/CC in PvP.

If it were a defensive skill they'd have upped the evade, the length of time the counter attack is waiting. Or something along those lines, not lengthening the CC. Lengthening the CC is an offensive thing. What they think the skill is in competitive modes is something to stop your enemy and start a counteroffensive, but the problem is that with the amount of stability and stun breaks the CC is meaningless. So the short CC to disrupt the enemy with damage was the better answer because of the meta we're currently in, and the CC will probably end up doing nothing.

> @"Rikimaru.7890" said:

> **Anyway, if you want to know where it will be located then it should be somewhere north of Desert Highlands in the Southern Shiverpeaks.**

If they do it right it'll be just to the west and south of Fields of Ruin past the brand.

Source:

https://www.thatshaman.com/tools/guide/?v=4&x=-746.125&y=978.875&z=3

> @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> > > So essentially now its just a block with a 1.5 daze, as a profession mechanic?

> >

> > With 360, 10.5 sec CD, unblockable, that removes a boon on CC and copy 3 condis traited. It still does too much as it currently stands. It is a block. It is not supposed to do much else.

>

> its not a block at all. It only nullifies damage and is stable. Conditions and other effects still can be applied to the warrior, the stability keeps them from being CCed, but its only one stack and there is enough time for teams t dispel the stability and then cc before the counter goes off.

As Cloud said it's not a block it's a burst skill, even says so in the description. Bursts are supposed to do damage.

Axe/GS for power and S-T/LB for Condi.

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > > > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > > > > Your math is bad and you should feel bad...

> > > > > > > the 25 PVE and 75 PVP means that. The damage was reduced 75% for PVP but only 25% for PVE. The skill effects were split between game modes.

> > > > > > > And even then, what's with the 27/75 - 1... That's not how you make an average if that was your intention, and anything else is just incredibly misguided... They didn't say 25 out of 75 (that would make your calculations somewhat correct), they said 25% PVE to 75% PVP. With 25 to 75 the best you could do would be an average (which would be around 50).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Your reading comprehension is obviously not great, so i'd suggest asking for some books for christmas...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Oh man don't make me school you on math. I will make you look bad seriously! I have a master's degree on physics.

> > > > > I have one in Engineering. Appeals to authority don't really work, but you're correct though.

> > > > >

> > > > > > You poor understanding on percentages is non existent and seriously you should not say math is wrong if you don't have a clue of what is going on.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (27/75 - 1) is the damage lost by going from 75 of PvE to 25 of PvE. IT IS NOT HOW YOU CALCULATE AVERAGES!

> > > > > > If you keep reading all my comments you should know that I calculated the nerf on FC this December patch.

> > > > > > I know that not everyone has the gift of math and I am not judging, so for clarification going from 75% to 25% is not 75% - 25% = 50%

> > > > > > Let X be the PvE damage, then 75% of PvE is:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (X)(0.75)

> > > > > > And 25% of PvE is:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (X)(0.25)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Therefore, the damage lost going from 75% of PvE to 25% of PvE is:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > [(X)(0.25)/(X)(0.75) -1] * 100% = [(0.25/0.75) - 1] * 100%

> > > > > > = -66.66%

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So, going from 75% of PvE to 25% of PvE is not 50%, it is 66.66%

> > > > > >

> > > > > Ok, my bad i misunderstood your intention, i only did a cursory reading, and did what i accused you of, i misinterpreted your text. I'll freely admit that.

> > > > > In that case you are correct. The overall reduction of damage for PVP is indeed 66%. The current damage is 33% of the previous.

> > > > >

> > > > > > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > > > > He includes cooldown nerf as well., which doesnt mean the skill does less damage, it just does less dps. Those are two very different terms.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No, Damage and damage per second are related by time! Suppose the cooldown was increased to 90000000000 seconds what is the damage nerf?

> > > > > > it will be [(8/9x10^10) - 1] * 100 = -99.99%

> > > > > Damage per second change will be 99%, but damage per hit isn't changed by the cooldown.

> > > > > > because you will not be able to cast the spell on a long cooldown and that is equivalent to a 99.99% nerf damage.

> > > > > On Damage Per Second, not per hit. There's a distinction there to be made, and while you're correct that it matters overall

> > > > >

> > > > > In cases like Full Counter damage per second isn't as important since it's used situationally. Although, it does mater, of course, and the cooldown is part of the balance and it's potential output, but damage per hit is more important due to the situational nature of it.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > As a physicist I have been trained to look outside the box and seek many examples to explain the same thing.

> > > > Now let me use this simple example that everyone will understand.

> > > > Suppose you earn X dollars in 8 hours, but then your boss tells you he is going to pay you X dollars in 12 hours.

> > > > Obviously you are not going to be happy because you will have to work harder and get pay the same amount of money.

> > > >

> > > > In fact, the work ratio is 2:3

> > > >

> > > > So, the same thing applies to FC, with the 8 sec to 12 sec increase, warriors have to do 3 FC to equate 2 FC from the past.

> > > > So oblivious there is a damage nerf of -33.33%

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Cooldown nerf != damage nerf. It's a dps nerf. You don't have dps rotations in pvp because defensive skills also play a big role in your "skill rotation".

> > >

> > > If skill hits for 3k once per 10 seconds or once per year it still does 3k damage. Your "total skill damage" is still 3k, but your **total damage over 8+ seconds time interval**, also known as DPS, will be lower.

> > >

> >

> > I appreciate the enthusiasm for participation, but please refrain from posting if you don't know what **2:3** means.

> > I want this post to be clear about the -83% damage nerf.

>

> You don't work for your skill cooldown, you wait for it. Waiting isnt damage nerf. Waiting isnt effort. Waiting is dps loss. Your analogy is a bit off.

Wouldn't a dps loss be a damage nerf?

> @"Miko.4158" said:

> > @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > > And we need to be more vocal we're one of the least vocal classes in the game, just look at the forums and it's easy to see. But yes nerfing a class defining skill like FC into the ground is a horrible idea. So much so that I've done as several others have done and gone back to core warrior for my competitive modes and been allot more successful.

> >

> > Shhhhh dont tell them, they will "fix" core too if they hear about it.

> > But since they seem to not look at warrior forum anyway i can tell you that i swapped back to core quite a while ago.

> >

>

> yup I don't even publish or talk about my build , lest it get nerfed to hell and back (more).

> I could point out that this makes the balance team anti the community spirit and ethos of gw2 across the board-

> as I'm hamstrung in helping people.

> Add this to the level of professionalism required to nerf something by 75% without consulting the community or listening to the offical forums and calling it 'balance', I could also point out this isn't the first massive 'balance' to this class alone in what 6 weeks.

> To do so would be to suggest completely cretinous incompetence of an order not usually seen in the 'world of work'......

> I'd love this sort of freedom with my balance sheet.

It's a reason I don't share my build either. And their "reasoning that Full Counter has functionally different uses in competitive game modes when compared to PvE" doesn't make sense. It's a burst skill... Burst skills ARE SUPPOSED TO HIT HARD.

> @"Martellus.7083" said:

> Just name it "Full Cuddle".

I think this is the best and most fitting name.

> @"RedShark.9548" said:

> > @"kiranslee.4829" said:

> > I agree on on 83% , but you named it wrong , it is Little Daze, not Full Counter.

>

> You spelled "Soft breeze" wrong, i give you that, its a stinking breeze, hence why the 1,5s daze. Or maybe its a stunningly beautiful flowery smell.

> I know that i swapped back to core some patches ago and definately do NOT regret it in the slightest. Looking at red hairs pve/wvw dmg comparison makes me wanna cry/laugh, i cant decide.

> Calling it full counter is just a bad joke.

It's a warm summer breeze that smells like lilacs. I've also switched back to core warrior cause this nerf was ridiculous.

> @"idolin.2831" said:

> > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > > The question is how the hell did you allow warrior to hit you with bull's charge, whirl wind, Rush, and Arcing Slice in that order?

> > > * Bull charge = "Look at me I am going to hit you, I also make a noise so you better dodge in 3, 2, 1"

> > > * Whirl wind = "Oh he use whirl win, I better dodge so i get hit only once"

> > > * Rush = "how cute this warrior, let me count 3,2,1 dodge"

> > > * Arcing Slice = You were already dead and he hit you when you were down.

> > >

> > > the warrior did not have cooldown on GS and yet you did not even dodge a single attack?

> > > Bull charge = hit

> > > Whirl wind = hit X 3

> > > Rush = hit

> > > Arcing slice = hit

> > >

> > > You have serious L2P issues boy!

> >

> > I was already at the end of my survivial in a team fight. I wasnt 1v1ing the war at all. More like 4v4 and i had the war on me the entire time, thats what he managed to hit me with after a prolonged fight. How ignorant u gotta be to assume it was a 1v1 sitchuation. The answere is very.

>

> So you got hit when you're out of defensive CD's and died - I don't really see what the problem is.

Also it's 4 whirlwinds 1 didn't crit, and you see the beginning of a 100b at the very bottom. I'm fairly certain the guy was standing still just getting hit.

I'll put this in terms others will understand easier. I put the same build/same gear on in both WvW and PvE and looked at my FC damage in each mode.

**PvE:**

Damage: 1,136

CD: 8sec

**WvW**

Damage: 268

CD: 12sec

Now in a perfect wold I'd be able to use them on CD which I can't really do in either mode because someone needs to attack or I need to be in an AoE however for comparison's sake I'm just going to assume perfect world and that I can use it off CD (WvW I'm much more likely not to be able to use when on CD, so the numbers actually are much lower, unless you're fighting an idiot that's just face rolling skills and not dancing around you). I can get 3 FC's off in PvE in the time that I can get 2 off in WvW.

(1,136)3=3,408

(268)2=568

568/3,408=0.166667

So in reality we're doing about 16.6% of the damage in WvW that we can in PvE. And to be honest most people in small groups in competitive modes stop attacking when I use FC so it doesn't even really seem to proc.

Edited because silly forum format.

And we need to be more vocal we're one of the least vocal classes in the game, just look at the forums and it's easy to see. But yes nerfing a class defining skill like FC into the ground is a horrible idea. So much so that I've done as several others have done and gone back to core warrior for my competitive modes and been allot more successful.

> @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > > @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > > > Yes the but amount of stability people have means your daze did nothing.

> > >

> > > Even without stability, every class has at a minimum 3 ways to break out of a stun (3 on base rev, with the next lowest being 5 ways).

> >

> > My point is that our CC's are supposed to remove boons, but if they have stability it does nothing and in competitive modes most people will be bringing stability.

>

> I know, i was just colluding with you for a bit.

I got ya, I just want to make sure others realize that the longer duration CC doesn't do a darn thing when the enemy has stability. You'd be surprised at the amount of people don't realize dispelling force does nothing when the enemy has stability, so much for being a "boon hate" class when we're more of a boon dislike.

You should add make greatsword 4 hit more reliably. I don't know what they've done but I can't seem to land it or bull's charge even on a stationary target that is in range.

> @"Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485" said:

> > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > Yes the but amount of stability people have means your daze did nothing.

>

> Even without stability, every class has at a minimum 3 ways to break out of a stun (3 on base rev, with the next lowest being 5 ways).

My point is that our CC's are supposed to remove boons, but if they have stability it does nothing and in competitive modes most people will be bringing stability.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Torqiseknite.1380" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Torqiseknite.1380" said:

> > > > > @"TheBravery.9615" said:

> > > > > > @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > > > > > This would have been a much better idea than what they did, but in certain circumstances could be a little too OP. There are a few PvE foes that do a percentage of your health as damage instead of having damage multipliers and whatnot. If I remember the forged bastion's charge up laser beam skill does a percentage of your health.

> > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forged_Bastion

> > > > >

> > > > > I mean rather than nerfing competitive FC they could have applied OP's suggestion and leave pve alone.

> > > > Yes, it would almost certainly need to be split from pve

> > >

> > > This split would be a different mechanism between gamemode since there would be a mechanism looking for the the coefficient of the incoming attack to apply it and ANet don't split mechanisms, just numbers.

> > A split doesn't necessarily have to change the damage calculation, they could just put a cap on how much damage the skill can do against nonplayer opponents, similar to when they had a npc only icd on meteor shower

>

> Except that in case of damage done in %age of health you do not have damage coefficient and this would make the skill broken for this peculiar situation. It's just plain simple for ANet to keep things as they set them up.

As Dadnir said they won't change anything other than damage numbers, critical multipliers, condition/boon duration/stacks, recharge , not what the damage is based on. That would functionally make the skill 2 different skills.

This would have been a much better idea than what they did, but in certain circumstances could be a little too OP. There are a few PvE foes that do a percentage of your health as damage instead of having damage multipliers and whatnot. If I remember the forged bastion's charge up laser beam skill does a percentage of your health.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forged_Bastion

Since they increased the power base on some of it's skills I highly doubt it'll ever be more than a condi hybrid.