How to Implement Hard Mode Vanquishes in GW2

[Eddy.7051]

# Vanquishing Q&A

 

**What are GW1 Vanquishes?**

* After reaching the max level and finishing the primary quests/story, players could toggle their PvE Normal Mode setting to Hard Mode and replay PvE zones in Hard Mode.

* Vanquishing achievements were rewarded to teams who killed every foe in Hard Mode zones. Zones were instanced and foes did not respawn.

* Zones can be categorized into three tiers, and each tier has different party size restrictions (4 player teams, 6 player teams, and 8 player teams). Players usually had to modify their team compositions and builds in more restricted tiers compared to the setups they used in 8 player teams. Some of the most difficult Vanquishes were in 4 player zones.

 

**Why would Vanquishing be good for GW2?**

* Reusing old, central Tyrian leveling maps for new, end-game content is resourceful. It costs less time/money than developing new maps for new content. Expansion and Living World maps can also potentially be Vanquished, but these newer maps are not as high on my priority list as central Tyrian maps.

* Vanquishing is another opportunity for moderately challenging content that gets players more comfortable with engaging in organized and cooperative content like Raids. Vanquishing probably will not bridge the skill gap between raiders and non-raiders, but that is not the purpose of Vanquishing. Strike Missions have the purpose of bridging the skill gap.

* In GW1, many players enjoyed and felt nostalgic when revisiting and Vanquishing leveling zones while not being bored by the easy difficulty in Normal Mode.

 

**How have Visions of the Past (for Ryland) already set the foundation for Vanquishing in GW2?**

* This enabled premade or hotjoined squads to enter an instanced map that can be large-scale.

* Unlike the open world, foes do not respawn in these instances after they are killed.

* The Eye of the North is now a central hub for organized PvE content (Strike missions and Visions of the Past) outside of Fractals and Raids. Vanquishing squads can be organized in this hub, and squads can enter Vanquishes through the Scrying Pool.

 

**How can Vanquishes be implemented in GW2?**

* Similarly to the three tiers of GW1 zones, GW2 zones can be categorized into six different tiers. Inspired by the gambit system of the Queen's Gauntlet, each tier can have various levels of combat restrictions to switch up the game play experience between each tier. Tier 6 Vanquishes would have no combat restrictions, Tier 5 Vanquishes would have some restrictions, Tier 4 Vanquishes would have more restrictions,... and Tier 1 Vanquishes would have the most restrictions. These combat restrictions may reflect the combat restrictions leveling characters have during each tier, and these restrictions are reminiscent of the team size restrictions in GW1's three tiers.

* Vanquishes would be instanced, accessible via the Eye of the North Visions system, and joined by either premade or hotjoined squads (50 player capacity). Vanquishes should be incorporated into the Visions system because Visions allow players to revisit the past, and combat restrictions can fit the lore if Vanquishes take players back to their past leveling experiences.

* Ideally, Vanquish zones will be significantly scaled up in difficulty compared to their reflected open world zones, and the enemies would mirror the same enemies from the reflected open world zones. These beefed up enemies will also have new abilities and/or bounty mechanics to make them complex enough for squads and level 80 players. Open world dynamic events and meta events will be disabled during the Vanquish. There will also be branching series of objectives that guide the squad and its subgroups to all corners of the zone. Vanquish objectives can be similar to the Dragon's Stand meta event where the squad(s) covers the entire zone by splitting up into three paths guided by separate series of branching objectives. Vanquish objectives can also be similar to GW1's Underworld or Fissure of Woe where the team is free to explore wherever, and they can complete the branching objectives, guiding players to different corners of the zone, in any order they choose. Novice teams would safely complete each objective one-by-one, while advanced teams would split up to complete multiple objectives more quickly.

* The Vanquish reward currencies and traders can be incorporated into the Visions and Strike Mission rewards systems.

* Vanquishes will take longer to complete than Raids, Fractals, Visions, or Strike Missions, so it is important to appropriately reward dedicated players while still having an incentive for players who cannot commit to the entire Vanquish. Rewards earned during the Vanquish can use the loyalty mechanic. For example, a Vanquish zone may theoretically have 12 objectives. Player A joins the Vanquish at the beginning and participates in all 12 objectives. Player A would receive 12 packets of rewards, and each consecutive reward will have increased chances at improved loot (similarly to the Lunar New Year's Celestial Challenge). Player B joins the Vanquish at the beginning and leaves the squad after participating in the first 6 objectives. Player C hotjoins the Vanquish in the middle and participates the last 6 objectives. Player D participates in 3 objectives, AFKs and doesn't receive credit for participating in the next 6 objectives, and then rejoins the squad to participate in the last 3 objectives. Players B, C, and D would all receive 6 packets of rewards, but players B and C would have 3 packets of rewards with increased chances at improved loot compared to player D because their participation was more consecutive. Hopefully this loyalty mechanic discourages AFKers from taking up space in hotjoin Vanquishes.

* There should also be achievements for detailed exploration of Vanquish zones. For example, there should be an achievement for participating in a squad that killed every foe in the Vanquish zone, and this would reference GW1 Vanquishing achievements.

* Every week or every other week, available Vanquishes can rotate based on regions (Maguuma, Kryta, Shiverpeaks, Ascalon, and Orr) or tiers (1-6). Each region can have exclusive and thematic Vanquish rewards that are earned from completing objectives (improved rates with the loyalty mechanic) and dropping from foes at very low rates.

* I would like to incorporate agony resistance into Vanquishes to make this stat useful in another mode outside of Fractals, but agony resistance is unnecessary for Vanquishes.

 

# Vanquishing Tier Design

 

**Tier 1**

* Zones: Metrica Province (Maguuma), Caledon Forest (Maguuma), Queensdale (Kryta), Wayfarer Foothills (Shiverpeaks), and Plains of Ashford (Ascalon)

* Recommended Agony Resistance: 25

* Unlocked Abilities

* Weapon Skills

* Healing Slot Skills

* Dodge

* Profession Skills (1/3)

 

**Tier 2**

* Zones: Brisban Wildlands (Maguuma), Kessex Hills (Kryta), Snowden Drifts (Shiverpeaks), and Diessa Plateau (Ascalon)

* Recommended Agony Resistance: 50

* Unlocked Abilities

* Tier 1 Abilities

* Utility Slot Skills

* Downed State and Skills

* Profession Skills (2/3)

 

**Tier 3**

* Zones: Bloodtide Coast (Maguuma rather than Kryta), Gendarran Fields (Kryta), Lornar's Pass (Shiverpeaks), and Fields of Ruin (Ascalon)

* Recommended Agony Resistance: 75

* Unlocked Abilities

* Tier 1-2 Abilities

* Elite Slot Skills

* Weapon Swap (in combat)

* Profession Skills (3/3)

 

**Tier 4**

* Zones: Sparkfly Fen (Maguuma), Harathi Hinterlands (Kryta), Dredgehaunt Cliffs (Shiverpeaks), Timberline Falls (Shiverpeaks), Blazeridge Steppes (Ascalon), and Iron Marches (Ascalon)

* Recommended Agony Resistance: 100

* Unlocked Abilities

* Tier 1-3 Abilities

* Top Specialization Line

 

**Tier 5**

* Zones: Mount Maelstrom (Maguuma), Southsun Cove (Kryta), Frostgorge Sound (Shiverpeaks), and Fireheart Rise (Ascalon)

* Recommended Agony Resistance: 125

* Unlocked Abilities

* Tier 1-4 Abilities

* Middle Specialization Line

 

**Tier 6**

* Zones: 3 Central Tyrian Orrian Zones and potentially Expansion/Living World Zones

* Recommended Agony Resistance: 150

* Unlocked Abilities

* Tier 1-5 Abilities

* Bottom/Elite Specialization Line

 

**Profession Skill Unlocks**

 

* Elementalist

* Tier 1: Fire and Water Attunements (F1-2)

* Tier 2: Air Attunement (F3)

* Tier 3: Earth Attunement (F4)

 

* Engineer

* Tier 1: Healing Tool Belt Skill (F1)

* Tier 2: Utility Tool Belt Skills (F2-4)

* Tier 3: Elite Tool Belt Skill (F5)

 

* Guardian

* Tier 1: Virtue of Justice (F1)

* Tier 2: Virtue of Resolve (F2)

* Tier 3: Virtue of Courage (F3)

 

* Mesmer

* Tier 1: Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration (F1-2)

* Tier 2: Diversion (F3)

* Tier 3: Distortion (F4)

 

* Necromancer

* Tier 1: Death Shroud, Life Blast, and Dark Path (F1 and Shroud 1-2)

* Tier 2: Doom (Shroud 3)

* Tier 3: Life Transfer and Tainted Shackles (Shroud 4-5)

 

* Ranger

* Tier 1: Attack My Target and Return to Me (F1 and F3)

* Tier 2: Beast Skills (F2)

* Tier 3: Swap Pets (F4)

 

* Revenant

* Tier 1: Legendary Dwarf and Assassin Stances and Swap Legends (F1)

* Tier 2: Legendary Demon Stance and Increased Energy Pips (from -3/+3 to -5/+5)

* Tier 3: Legendary Centaur Stance and Ancient Echo (F2)

 

* Thief

* Tier 1: Dual Wield Skills (3)

* Tier 2: Stealth Attack Skills (1)

* Tier 3: Steal and Stolen Skills (F1-2)

 

* Warrior

* Tier 1: 1 Adrenaline bar and Burst Skills (F1)

* Tier 2: 2 Adrenaline bars

* Tier 3: 3 Adrenaline bars

 

_Edit: Based on feedback and upon further consideration, I believe 10-player squads are more appropriate for Vanquish zones than 50-player squads. 50 players can zerg together and trivialize content. Branching objectives can still work for a 10-player squads when 3-5 players take each objective path._

[Seera.5916]

The way to handle what you get at what tiers is like how Final Fantasy XIV handles going to instanced content designed for lower levels.

 

You get access only to things you would have unlocked at that level, but you get to keep your gear (though they did have a few dungeons where they would downscale gear as well). Maps since they have a level range would be the level of the max level foe.

 

So starter maps would be Level 15

Lornar's Pass would be Level 40

 

Specializations wise you would be able to fill a line out completely if you have already unlocked all of the traits on the line - too complicated to work out what you would have had unlocked and when.

 

You would still downscale to those levels even.

 

This would allow new players who may not even be level 80 yet to join in on maps of their level or below. It would be harder, but some people want the challenge.

 

Also keeps it simpler for players to figure out what they would have access to no matter what class they are going for. Even if ANet adjusts things in the future.

 

Could even further the selection of maps by using dungeon maps or fractal maps or or strike mission maps or even raid maps.

[Randulf.7614]

Well I'll give you a lot of credit for the presentation of your idea - one which has been put forward a few times, albeit this is a bit more refined and removes some of the problems, with the exception of - why?

 

The problem with harking back to HM on GW1, was that when I played GW1 at its height, HM was initially panned and abhorred. People did it of course for the rewards (esp Hom) and some certianly enjoyed it, but it really didn't add anything of substance to the game and if anything its poor implementation was a frustration at times. I admit your version is def more interesting than the GW1 version, albeit adding in agony is just silly. That is just throwing an arbitrary mechanic from elsewhere that is completely out of place just for the sake of using it.

 

I cannot see how vanquishing fits GW2 at all - it seems entirely the opposite structure to the living world GW2 pushes and doesn't really add anything along the way. I'd rather they concentrated on more things like the Steel Warband run and put more of those, with objectives and challenge modes.

 

The other issue is, do we really need more modes of challenging or bridging difficulties? I'm all for the Strikes - they work really well on their own. But do we need more stuff to do that job? I'm not seeing a convincing argument for it.

 

There's merit in your design and it is well thought out (better than most forum ideas), but it's not something I think is needed or would be popular enough to maintain a presence for in my opinion

 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

It sounds like a lot of work for the Devs...for little return for the players. I think the novelty would wear off quickly, and a substantial part of the playerbase would bemoan the fact that new content was shelved for a time for the Devs to work on this.

Remember, a large portion (I would think) of Dev resources are now going into the new expansion.

 

Good luck.

[Ayrilana.1396]

It'll take up too many resources with potentially every player creating their own map instance. It also won't work in this game, compared to GW1, due to how Anet designed the game around the hyper casual player so there's really no risk.

[Raknar.4735]

I don‘t think it is worth it introducing another 10 man lobby gamemode that will most likely be played by only a small percentage of the playerbase.

[Zohane.7208]

> @"Brad.9730" said:

> --snip--

>

> **Why would Vanquishing be good for GW2?**

> * Reusing old, central Tyrian leveling maps for new, end-game content is resourceful. It costs less time/money than developing new maps for new content. Expansion and Living World maps can also potentially be Vanquished, but these newer maps are not as high on my priority list as central Tyrian maps.

> * Vanquishing is another opportunity for moderately challenging content that gets players more comfortable with engaging in organized and cooperative content like Raids. Vanquishing probably will not bridge the skill gap between raiders and non-raiders, but that is not the purpose of Vanquishing. Strike Missions have the purpose of bridging the skill gap.

> * In GW1, many players enjoyed and felt nostalgic when revisiting and Vanquishing leveling zones while not being bored by the easy difficulty in Normal Mode.

>

> --snip--

>

 

I have to say I don't see that your Points here in any way answer the question; they are statements of how it could be done, and what the opportunity is, but it doesn't in any way describe what need in GW2 is fulfilled by this.

Specifically:

- Why would the player base wish to take on the challenge of hard mode? We know for a fact that the lashback from the HoT launch was pretty substantial, and the most common complaint was that the game got too hard.

- One common thing I read on the forums is that (seemingly) a lot of players don't want to collaborate with others. How would such players benefit from this?

- How is the GW1 nostalgia relevant to GW2?

 

I would like to see a reason why the broader playerbase would find this interesting, and how we all would benefit from it.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think this would be sweet and a great way to challenge players who are interested in tougher content.