Countless Mesmer Balance Suggestions

[bravan.3876]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> @"bravan.3876"

> Yeah GW2's targeting system is the real issue here, not allowing for things like aiming skills etc (beyond random yolo noscoping). I wish the game had been initially designed around a third person soft lock targeting of skills, and actual aiming of auto attacks like weapon fire in a TPS, similar to that action camera they introduced (although sadly that shows as being more of an afterthought than having the whole game's skills designed around it).

>

> For the detarget skills themselves:

> Axe 3 - the only issue I can accept with this skill is because it has a low cooldown, as is necessary for the primary burst damage skill of the weapon. Position wise, regardless of rng it's all melee range on the target of which cleave is the clear counterplay. If the low cooldown is an issue then I believe the detarget could be removed from here and transferred to Jaunt instead - much longer cooldown skill, and is crucially also a teleport (because as Mirror Images shows, detargets only make sense when on skills that also reposition, otherwise they are pointless. Eg imagine if Signet of Midnight detargeted instead of stealth - how pointless it would be). In tandem with Self Deception that could actually be quite cool for Jaunt - port and "vanish" leaving a clone in your place. But I think for axe 3 the downside of porting into melee range makes this skill acceptable.

>

> Illusionary Ambush - I think the 35s cooldown is enough to keep this in check, because it takes comparatively little time to retarget the mirage after it's been used (ie, couple of seconds at most), than the cooldown before it can be used again. It also only truly has maximum benefit in terms of real "deception" on Staff, Scepter and GS due to ranged clones. For Axe and Sword the clones immediately begin moving towards the target after casting ambush, thus preventing any mind games to buy a more than a moment's breathing space.

> Also I think the double edged nature of this also requires the mirage be prepared for whatever the RNG does - so not only does the opponent have to react to sudden loss of mirage's position and target, but the mirage must be ready to quickly move from an unfavourable position for example, potentially burning another resource such as a dodge or weapon/utility skill.

> This is all ignoring the fact that it requires at least 2 clones out before use to give any amount of disorientation (taking into account potential to build for additional clone spawn through Self Deception).

>

> Mirage Advance - this skill is just not good at the moment due to basically being Axe 3 animation without damage and without an evade frame. Sure it has blind and retreat detarget, but here I think it makes most sense as it is the only one of these skills where the detarget is purely defensive.

>

> ----------

> But I agree that I would choose to prioritise IH becoming GM minor, than fight in defence of the above.

 

Yes i don't mind to rework Mirage Advantage more into something comparable to Thief's shadowstep but lose the retargeting for that. For axe i could see what Countless is suggesting: Remove the retargeting and the dodge from axe 3 and give a shorter 1/2s dodge to axe 2 with higher cd on the ammo skills.

 

I disagree to IA. Compare it to Decoy what has 45 or even 50s cd now? IA is a max range teleport +evade + retargeting + high dmg from ambushes (even from clones without even IH traited). Why it has 10-15s less cd than Decoy what offers not half as much reward? Also as mentioned the randomness is rly unhealthy for the Mesmer itself and for the opponent and unhealthy for every skillful encounter because it deletes the ability of mind gaming and active counterplay from both parts (the Mesmer itself and the opponent).

 

But tbh IA rework is not my main request, more important is to keep IH a viable and more active trait choice and keep the skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity this trait (and ambushes) add to the spec and rework (condi ambushes to more utility based ambushes instead only being about dmg) and fine adjust Mesmers own ambushes just as clone ambushes on each weapon separately to a balanced post patch lvl based on 2 dodges.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@"bravan.3876"

 

The fact that we have the lootbox model as far as BLC content goes, says you're wrong. Again, I invite you to reconsider your stance based on well known and currently adopted practices in the game.

 

P.S. This has nothing to do with what YOU or I would like to see as balance policies, it has everything to do with REALITY, and that REALITY CHECK is brutal. Sadly we're both cogs that have very little say in what the status quo will be, going forward.

 

Unless you're Helio that sells accounts and account boosts for $$ with ANET's Silent "go get some" policy.

 

[Curunen.8729]

@"bravan.3876" If anything I think Decoy is ridiculous on 45s when Signet of Midnight is 35s and still better in most ways - though nobody ever complains about signet. Decoy ought to be 35s as well tbh.

 

Illusionary Ambush's offensive potential would be somewhat brought in check when clone ambushes damage is shifted more to the player.

 

Though if anything requires a change I concede the 1200 range effective teleport (not taking into account varying position from target based on equipped weapon) could be the aspect that is reigned in, maybe to 900.

 

Ultimately though I think IA and Mirage Advance could have been merged into a single skill, leaving space for a new more unique Deception utility, though I appreciate Anet aiming to give different movement options for Deception utilities to compensate stationary dodge.

[Ovark.2514]

I think the chrono Alac duration reduction should remain even if just like 10% in PvP so that skill splits can still be done.

Please no more CC or blind additions thanks. We've been there with blind spam before and are mired in the CC spam atm.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> @"bravan.3876" If anything I think Decoy is ridiculous on 45s when Signet of Midnight is 35s and still better in most ways - though nobody ever complains about signet. Decoy ought to be 35s as well tbh.

>

> Illusionary Ambush's offensive potential would be somewhat brought in check when clone ambushes damage is shifted more to the player.

>

> Though if anything requires a change I concede the 1200 range effective teleport (not taking into account varying position from target based on equipped weapon) could be the aspect that is reigned in, maybe to 900.

>

> Ultimately though I think IA and Mirage Advance could have been merged into a single skill, leaving space for a new more unique Deception utility, though I appreciate Anet aiming to give different movement options for Deception utilities to compensate stationary dodge.

 

How about we meet at 40s cd for all (IA, Decoy and SoM)? xD

 

 

@"ArlAlt.1630" said:

The fact that we have the lootbox model as far as BLC content goes, says you're wrong. Again, I invite you to reconsider your stance based on well known and currently adopted practices in the game.

Unless you're the "not named player" that sells accounts and account boosts for $$ with ANET's Silent "go get some" policy.

 

 

 

Can you explain what you mean with lootbox model and BLC content? And how that proves that the randomness from IA is a skillful one? Never heard about BLC content and what that means.

If loot box model means the random proc luck on crits and other effects have x% chance to proc than yes, the game has little random parts you cannot avoid on computer generated fictive games like GW2, but that is a minor part of the game you barely can delete. At least GW2 does not generate blinds and 100% dmg absorbtion random based on gear stats proc chance anymore, that would be even more horrible xD

 

And ofc those randomness does delete skill ceiling from GW2 or are you happy when you lose a fight only because your opponent has an insane crit luck at an insane lucky good moment? This win was not based on skill then. Luckily this doesn't happen that often. The skillbased part in GW2 clearly overshines the skill ceiling reducing random lucky proc part of the game by far. The overall gameplay consept from GW2 is as much as possible to be about clearly defined opponents moves enabling reactive tactical moves as response. Comparable more to chess than to poker. And i think you cannot deny that adding any randomness to chess would kill skill ceiling. And that is what randomness does in GW2 too. Some ramdomness you cannot rly avoid (like crit and critchance mechanic) but IA adds an unnecessary and avoidable randomness that just kills skill ceiling as much as every other rdm aspect of the game. That is why GW2 has lower skill ceiling than chess. (while poker with the bluffing mechanic is a different story and doesn't fit as example because of that bluff mechanic. The bluff mechanic you can compare to GW2 stuff like stow-cancel skill casts to bait defensive cds from the opponent. There it would be a fitting example and ofc those bluff stuff is clearly skilled and includes mind gaming).

 

Imaginary thumb up for the Helisomething part xD It is actually shocking that those players, who should be perma banned, outlawed and dishonored for account sharing, PvP reward trading etc., have free out of jail cards and any influence on balance decisions because they are friend with some devs. Even more cringe when those players than brag in whispers about how they will make devs nerf Mesmer even more. Screenshots were shown. Such inbree... nepotism should not exist at all. Nothing proven ofc, maybe Helisomething only wanted to look more important than he actually is but when looking at whole context i have no hard time to believe that he was serious.

 

 

[Curunen.8729]

@"bravan.3876" Sure I could work with that, though must point out since IC cooldown removal Decoy is higher than it used to be in vanilla, so maybe the ballpark of 40 is slightly too high. Leave blink at 35 though. ;)

[bravan.3876]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> @"bravan.3876" Sure I could work with that, though must point out since IC cooldown removal Decoy is higher than it used to be in vanilla, so maybe the ballpark of 40 is slightly too high. Leave blink at 35 though. ;)

 

Maybe we should start an auction. We only need to get some balance devs on the table, or better Helio maybe? :joy:

[ArlAlt.1630]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" Sure I could work with that, though must point out since IC cooldown removal Decoy is higher than it used to be in vanilla, so maybe the ballpark of 40 is slightly too high. Leave blink at 35 though. ;)

>

> Maybe we should start an auction. We only need to get some balance devs on the table, or better Helio maybe? :joy:

 

Bribing Helio is the way to go!

I have it on good authority that if you throw $200 his way, you get a nerf of your choosing.

[phokus.8934]

Good video. Recommend.

 

Same three people responding to each other in this sub forum. Do not recommend.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> Good video. Recommend.

>

> Same three people responding to each other in this sub forum. Do not recommend.

 

Remaining 3 mesmer players

[Eurantien.4632]

There's like 5 suggestions here, I wouldn't call that countless.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> There's like 5 suggestions here, I wouldn't call that countless.

 

I only got what "countless" meant after reading your comment, it's his username...

[Arheundel.6451]

Every mesmer suggestions thread .....**I want to be an unkillable Rambo** and every definition of counterplay in every mesmer suggestions thread....**as long as you practice 12 hrs per day and have inherent super gaming skill..you may stand a chance..you may**......../thread as always.....IH as minor trait.....sure sure

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> **as long as you practice 12 hrs per day and have inherent super gaming skill..you may stand a chance..you may**

 

This reminds me of the current level of skill needed to play mesmer

 

(Except chronomancer, you need to play 25 hours a day to be viable in gold)

[Allarius.5670]

I liked the video. Here is some personal feedback.

 

Egotism - I really liked the idea of customizing F1 and F2. I also liked how Egotism, as presented, builds on Domination's vulnerability theme. The worry that comes to mind is that core power shatter Mesmer can already come pretty close to '1 shotting' out of stealth, which is something being moved away from. Mind Wrack + 33% additional damage for a target with vulnerability seems like it would push this over the edge. Even without the Vulnerability damage multiplier, with Shatter Storm you could get essentially 3 Mind Wracks. Granted, this IS limited by clone generation AND Egotism would be on a longer cool down. I think it would also promote the 'spam shatters' play style that we saw with Blinding Dissipation and Ineptitude. Whatever trait is there would need to be able to compete with Shattered Concentration, and that is a hard nut to crack. Maybe Shattered Concentration already does the job of making Cry of Frustration useful on a power build all on its own?

 

Nomad's Endurance - I liked how you built in a reward for shattering with more clones. 1.5 sec of Vigor feels bad, the +condition damage on Vigor feels bad if you cannot reasonably maintain it, and one dodge feels bad. At the same time, I know there are many out there (Mesmers and non-Mesmers) that feel the evasion spam isn't fun to play against and isn't healthy for the game. That is too big a question for me to answer, I don't know the solution. Maybe 1 dodge is a sufficient limiting factor and perma vigor is fine, I'm not sure.

 

Chronomancer - I liked your suggestions. I'm in the camp that Continuum Split and Chronophantasma cause inherent balance problems for the profession as a whole, but especially for the elite specialization. Maybe, with the delay and damage reduction, Chronophantasma isn't so much an issue anymore, but the merge of Continuum Split with Distortion and the skill resets on Continuum Split definitely are a balance issue. It essentially means Chronomancer lacks Mesmer's primary defense mechanism and there are no Chronomancer traits or Chronomancer skills (shield doesn't feel good at all) that help make up for that. Even if folks don't like Mirage Mirrors, at least there is some kind of mechanical solution to help with 1 dodge on Mirage. Unfortunately, I don't expect them to even consider taking the skill reset functionality away, and so all of the balance changes forced by Chronomancer's design feel bad. Maybe they can do a skill split for PvP that allows F1, F2, and F3 to activate on the mesmer, but then still require clones for Continuum Split. I mean, Mirage in PvE has two dodges, so why can't Chrono in PvP still benefit from Illusionary Persona?

 

... Also, as a side note on Chrono, it feels discombobulated that the specialization gets a shield that promotes near melee range play and wells that also promote near melee range play (for the offense and defense pay off mechanics), but that the shatters promote ranged kiting because you cannot activate without clones (need to keep them alive to prep a shatter) and the Chrono doesn't produce a melee shatter on themselves (no value for shattering in melee vs ranged).

[viquing.8254]

@"Trigr.6481" :

Nice vid but you miss around 60% of unused things.

Mean you only talk about very few trait in each traitline while there are some who were basically unused since they exists. If I have the motivation I will do a full mesmer review with each traits and skills looked at.

I Like your offensive shatter customisation.

I'm for another solution about chrono than IP who will provide another gameplay, even if we all agree chrono is destroyed currently.

 

 

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > **as long as you practice 12 hrs per day and have inherent super gaming skill..you may stand a chance..you may**

>

> This reminds me of the current level of skill needed to play mesmer

>

> (Except chronomancer, you need to play 25 hours a day to be viable in gold)

 

yeah...12 hrs practice per day to learn how to play a mesmer....that must be the reason behind the huge number of mesmer main post HoT....Possibly I would agree with the OP about the removal of IH and balancing of retargeting.......that would be a good start

 

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> post HoT....

 

Does **current** mean anything to you, at all?

 

 

[Xstein.2187]

Countless, I love some of your shatter change ideas and your composure during the video, but what are your plans if nothing changes?

I only ask because I believe many here consider such by far the most likely outcome.

 

Thanks,

[bravan.3876]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > **as long as you practice 12 hrs per day and have inherent super gaming skill..you may stand a chance..you may**

> >

> > This reminds me of the current level of skill needed to play mesmer

> >

> > (Except chronomancer, you need to play 25 hours a day to be viable in gold)

>

> yeah...12 hrs practice per day to learn how to play a mesmer....that must be the reason behind the huge number of mesmer main post HoT....Possibly I would agree with the OP about the removal of IH and balancing of retargeting.......that would be a good start

>

 

Just that removing IH makes Mirage EASIER to play (when ambushes are designed well at least) and NOT harder.

 

Also the ambush/IH mechanic is what generates the inherent costs/ trade off of the spec by creating opportunity costs/ harder decision making in dodge management in terms of what to use dodges for. With well designed ambushes (how it is supposed to be and need to be reworked for condi ambushes similar to gs/sword ambush design) it is exactly what balance out the strong instant MC mechanic.

 

Well designed utility/effect-ambushes (and not dmg as main purpose) create the need and incentive to dodge pure offensive for well timed and different timed from pure defensive dodges hits of ambush effect rewards (like a daze for example) for active and tactical outplays of the opponent and the need/incentive to combo those ambushes with other skills like shatter and weapons (for example selfbuff and target debuff to prepare a shatterburst combo with ambushes on gs or sword). That adds higher skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity to the spec.

 

The abiltiy to use ambushes (also from clones what adds even more different active and tactical outplay moves and even more combopotential to the spec) to hit the ambush effects to outplay opponents in a tactical manner differently timed from pure defensive dodges is elementar to balance out MC, it also adds a different to core playstyle and creates a higher skill cap.

 

All ofc ONLY when ambushes are designed well (comparable to sword/gs, that is why i say condi ambushes need a rework) and when they are balanced in how strong the ambush reward from the Mesmers own ambushes and from the clone ambushes are. The problem from current condi ambush design is, that they do not create any need to dodge pure offensive, their main purpose is dmg and the reward from clone ambushes in terms of how much condi dmg they apply was enough to only dodge pure defensive and let clones do all the work as a passive side effect during the Mesmer could play defensive all the time. Also shattering was not rewarded on Condimirage because clones did more dmg with ambushes and normal autopattacks as when they get shattered. Means condi ambushes need to get an utility/effect reward as main purpose just like it is on power weapons and not any op dmg application from clones. This can easy be fine adjusted (in terms of effect duration, and amount of dmg) for each weapon and each ambush of Mesmer and clones individually. That is the beauty of the spec, that is has that many ways of fine adjusting. That makes the nonsense one dodge sledge hammer nerf look even more stupid.

 

For the spec to work in that balanced trade offed and high skill ceiling way it is essential, that Mirage gets 2 dodges back, otherwise pure offensive dodges for active and tactical and for that skilled outplay moves with ambushes (from Mesmer and clones) are simply impossible because the dodge resource is overnerfed. A Mirage simply cannot dodge pure offensive anymore in most cases, because with only one dodge it would be a freekill after that.

Means all ambush effects (from Mesmer itself and from clones) become a pure passive side effect from pure defensive dodging when they need to avoid an attack, what kills all tactical and active uses of the spec mechanic (ambushes/IH) and for that kills a tons of skill ceiling. Not to mention that only one dodge also leads into a more spammy on cd and with that less mindful and tactical timed dodge management in general (means Mirage is double dumbed down by the one dodge change because it contradicts the general, gamewide dodge mechanic and the Mirage specific ambush mechanic to do more with its dodges than only avoiding attacks. That is why Daredevil, as the other spec build around strong dodges, has more evades not less, what is ofc also not ideal, because that reduces opportunity costs in dodge management for Daredevils and also makes dodges spammable just for different reasons then it does it on one dodge Mirage).

 

It is rly that simply, and that is why i will never get, why that is so hard to understand for most ppl, even for Mesmer mains themself. I at least get the theory behind that high IQ spec, also when i am not rly talented enough to play a high skilled IH Powermirage near its maximum skill cap. Time to turn IH Condimirage into an equally skilled and balanced playstyle by reworking and then fine adjusting condiambushes based on 2 dodges and not dumbing the whole traitline down with a nonsense sledge hammer nerf showing insane lack of spec knowledge and understanding from Anets side.

[UNOwen.7132]

On-topic: Dunno how I feel about giving Mesmers 3 free-form no cast time teleports on their utilities (even if one is short range). At some point Mesmer may be able to teleport accross half the map faster than even thief can.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Restoring IP to chrono without changing continuum split will bring back double casting. Double burst, double moa, double anything means everything has to be weaksauce.

>

> Yes it needs IP back to function, there's loads of problems etc etc but continuum split shouldn't be in the game imo, it's broken chrono and arguably mesmer all across the game.

 

It's just as easy as placing the clone requirement on CS split only. Why didn't they do that is beyond me.

[Tayga.3192]

Bring self-shatter back and lower CS cooldown.

Give chrono -300 power and -300 condition damage? idk?

[apharma.3741]

> @"Terrorhuz.4695" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > Restoring IP to chrono without changing continuum split will bring back double casting. Double burst, double moa, double anything means everything has to be weaksauce.

> >

> > Yes it needs IP back to function, there's loads of problems etc etc but continuum split shouldn't be in the game imo, it's broken chrono and arguably mesmer all across the game.

>

> It's just as easy as placing the clone requirement on CS split only. Why didn't they do that is beyond me.

 

Consistency reasons but it would also mean no distortion when someone like a thief or rev ports onto you still. It's fine if you can daze them with F3 but that's not always a defence.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > Restoring IP to chrono without changing continuum split will bring back double casting. Double burst, double moa, double anything means everything has to be weaksauce.

> > >

> > > Yes it needs IP back to function, there's loads of problems etc etc but continuum split shouldn't be in the game imo, it's broken chrono and arguably mesmer all across the game.

> >

> > It's just as easy as placing the clone requirement on CS split only. Why didn't they do that is beyond me.

>

> Consistency reasons but it would also mean no distortion when someone like a thief or rev ports onto you still. It's fine if you can daze them with F3 but that's not always a defence.

 

it doesnt work on thief, plasma makes sure of that with stab and aegis :D