UNOwen.7132 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > Except thief *already* specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. > > > > > > > > > > Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (_cough_ herald _cough_). > > > > > > > > > > But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > D/P SA DD: > > > > > > > Shadow arts: defense, a bit damage > > > > > > > Trickery: utility, a bit damage > > > > > > > Daredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > CMirage: > > > > > > > Domination (utility, damage) > > > > > > > Illusions (damage) > > > > > > > Mirage (defense, a bit damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > pHerald: > > > > > > > Devastation: damage > > > > > > > Invocation: defense, utility > > > > > > > Herald: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience. > > > > > > Daredevil: > > > > > > Weakening Strikes + Weakness to lower even more the enemy damage > > > Marauder's Resilience > > > Unhindered Combatant > > > 30% damage redction + weakness > > > > Protection: 33-40% damage reduction without having to rely on an easily cleansed and not so easily applied condition. > > And the Thief can use the 30% damage reducttion AND benefit from Protections , for a totalof 48% damage reduction :P > How muc damage reduction Berseker Mesmers have ? > Also the WEaknessis applied every time you dodge + hit . Not all specs can cleanse it . And in teamfights your friends will aply their Weakness too :P > Yes, the protection that thief totally has access to. Such as .... .......... Consume Ectoplasm, I guess? Thats about it though. And yes, but thats a limited amount, and in fact *every* spec can cleanse it. If you cant cleanse a measily weakness, you get obliterated by any condi build. > Edit: if there no Guardian , you can replace Leeching Venoms > Flickering Shadows> Take less 33% damage while revealed. > Or add it up with the guardian prtection + 30% daredevil spec Yeah we already went over why Flickering Shadows is unplayable. And why those damage reductions dont save thief. You of course ignored that fact, as you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > Except thief *already* specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (_cough_ herald _cough_). > > > > > > > > > > > > But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > D/P SA DD: > > > > > > > > Shadow arts: defense, a bit damage > > > > > > > > Trickery: utility, a bit damage > > > > > > > > Daredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CMirage: > > > > > > > > Domination (utility, damage) > > > > > > > > Illusions (damage) > > > > > > > > Mirage (defense, a bit damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pHerald: > > > > > > > > Devastation: damage > > > > > > > > Invocation: defense, utility > > > > > > > > Herald: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience. > > > > > > > > Daredevil: > > > > > > > > Weakening Strikes + Weakness to lower even more the enemy damage > > > > Marauder's Resilience > > > > Unhindered Combatant > > > > 30% damage redction + weakness > > > > > > Protection: 33-40% damage reduction without having to rely on an easily cleansed and not so easily applied condition. > > > > And the Thief can use the 30% damage reducttion AND benefit from Protections , for a totalof 48% damage reduction :P > > How muc damage reduction Berseker Mesmers have ? > > Also the WEaknessis applied every time you dodge + hit . Not all specs can cleanse it . And in teamfights your friends will aply their Weakness too :P > > > > Yes, the protection that thief totally has access to. Such as .... > .......... > Consume Ectoplasm, I guess? Thats about it though. > And yes, but thats a limited amount, and in fact *every* spec can cleanse it. If you cant cleanse a measily weakness, you get obliterated by any condi build. > > > Edit: if there no Guardian , you can replace Leeching Venoms > Flickering Shadows> Take less 33% damage while revealed. > > Or add it up with the guardian prtection + 30% daredevil spec > > Yeah we already went over why Flickering Shadows is unplayable. And why those damage reductions dont save thief. You of course ignored that fact, as you do. a) Eevry spec cant cleanse it . Not all classes ave a evade>cleanse . Otherwise you wouldnt be among the ppl that whined about Core cuardians , where the have 2x condition to cleance (Burn + Vunibility) . Daredevil is full defensive trait with 30% damage reduction . That passive can add up in a teamfight with Guardian Protcetion , while Tanks cannot benefit for multiply Protection for even reduced damage ,they must take Toughness (40% damage reduction) Amulet b) You are saying to Tagra that leaching venoms > selfheal/do damage can be used once in burst ,for the SA its an offensive traitline . But they can be used again when you stealth again . So even Shadow Arts with Shadow's Embrace + Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning , is a 3/4 a defensive traitline in the same time If the selfheal from those venoms Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning is not enought ,you should take Flickering Shadows for 33% damage redcuction and not to wrry if you dont have a Guardian on your Team How much damage reduction a True Assasin like Mesmer + Rev can get with Berseker Gear again ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillze.7689 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 Threads like this always amuse me. So stopped playing mesmer coz its only any good now in duo and swap to my other main as thief. Next thing you see is everyone complaining that thief is OP and should be nerfed into the ground. Its so shallow, when will people realise that its not the spec its the player behind it that is op ? Thief actually takes brain power to pull off specially if you want to 1v1 these broken spec's like rev,necro,ranger,engi.guardian and ele coz we all know that thief 100% was a counter to mesmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 Thief is back to that period of time in what I believe was hot or late core, where it’s good for sure but many ppl would ditch it for tournaments. Though plenty of ppl will claim it’s meta despite that fact, but that’s only because it’s popular- not because it’s even good at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this. > > > > > > > > > > > > But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer does *much* more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses *2* defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a *bad* sign. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense" > > > > > > > > > > As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply). [Here](https://imgur.com/FvUR3l9) is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec *3* offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was *still* pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > L2read maybe? > > > > > > > > I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this. > > > > > > > > > > > > But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer does *much* more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses *2* defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a *bad* sign. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense" > > > > > > > > > > As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply). [Here](https://imgur.com/FvUR3l9) is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec *3* offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was *still* pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > L2read maybe? > > > > > > > > I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And chaos isnt. Even Dueling is half-half. Its still more defensive traitlines than the DD SA Trickery thief. What, did you show Mesmer with *3* defensive traitlines there (actually, looking at the damage that appears to be exactly what it is). Your suggestion is that thief damage is fine because DD SA Trickery thief does only slightly less burst than a full defense Mesmer? Hah. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh no its 6k on light, *maybe* medium. On heavy its 4k. Thats absolutely *pathetic* in the current game balance. Even by thief standards. > > > > > > > > > > > > Chaos is offensive?! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The traitline that features only 1 damage amplifying trait, which is for condi and as such not used for power, is offensive? What? > > > > > > > > > > > No, my point is if you want damage you should spec offensive traitlines. Like the core build on Vallun's video. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except thief *already* specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. They still do jack all damage. Even when they spec *3* offensive traitlines. Again, something *no* other class does. Even then do they not do as much damage as other classes do with *1* offensive traitline. So your point is basically "thief shouldnt do damage even if they go max glass cannon". > > > > > > > > > > > Again see Vallun's videos, 5k on heavy at 10min50 > > > > > > > > > > On a golem, with the full black powder damage combo that amps damage by more than a realistic scenario would allow. And with max stacked lead attacks (rather than the typical 0). Not in an actual game. There its indeed around 4k. > > > > > > > > There's a question mark on my post. I asked if you consider chaos offensive, since you said dueling is half half. > > > > > > > > > > Oh. No, it is utility, Dueling is half-half. > > > > > > > Power mes uses 2 full offensive traitlines and a defensive one (looking at the traits choice). > > > > D/P DD uses how many offensive ones? > > > > > > > > > > It uses *1* full offensive one. Dueling is half half. Chaos is full defensive. D/P DD uses 1 full offensive one, and 2 half/half ones. Of course, if you want to count Dueling as a fully offensive one, then the answer is D/P DD uses *3*. Since Daredevil and Shadow Arts are as offensive as Dueling is. > > > > > > > When even one of the best thieves around says thief damage is fine, there's not much to argue. > > > > > > And when even *the* best thief says thief damage is far too low, then there's not much to argue. This is the problem with argumentum ab auctoritate, there is usually an even higher authority to invoke. Of course, both of those are fallacies. The truth is, we have to make our own arguments based on what we see. What we see is thief doing less damage with 3 full offense traitlines than even Core Engineer does with only *1* offense traitline. Thats too low. > > > > If u talking about sindrener that was a while back when he stated that, he hasn't had to many negative things to say recently about thief state so maybe he's adjusted to things and is now on page with vallun that thief is completely fine. These players know there stuff so if they say thiefs fine maybe it's just not ur thing anymore. Their still doing fine on the class so thief players who feel otherwise must be wrong in thinking thief is in a weak state. > > > > Nerf teef! :) > > He hasnt exactly said anything to the contrary either. And there is no doubt that the current meta puts thief at a heavy disadvantage. Then again, hasnt he tried swapping to Rev recently? Yeah but when u have the experience, and ur name tied to best player of a class he'd prob really have to be at a point of dislike of the class to ever switch. Plus he's not as good YET on rev lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > Except thief *already* specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (_cough_ herald _cough_). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > D/P SA DD: > > > > > > > > > Shadow arts: defense, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > Trickery: utility, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CMirage: > > > > > > > > > Domination (utility, damage) > > > > > > > > > Illusions (damage) > > > > > > > > > Mirage (defense, a bit damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pHerald: > > > > > > > > > Devastation: damage > > > > > > > > > Invocation: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > Herald: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience. > > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: > > > > > > > > > > Weakening Strikes + Weakness to lower even more the enemy damage > > > > > Marauder's Resilience > > > > > Unhindered Combatant > > > > > 30% damage redction + weakness > > > > > > > > Protection: 33-40% damage reduction without having to rely on an easily cleansed and not so easily applied condition. > > > > > > And the Thief can use the 30% damage reducttion AND benefit from Protections , for a totalof 48% damage reduction :P > > > How muc damage reduction Berseker Mesmers have ? > > > Also the WEaknessis applied every time you dodge + hit . Not all specs can cleanse it . And in teamfights your friends will aply their Weakness too :P > > > > > > > Yes, the protection that thief totally has access to. Such as .... > > .......... > > Consume Ectoplasm, I guess? Thats about it though. > > And yes, but thats a limited amount, and in fact *every* spec can cleanse it. If you cant cleanse a measily weakness, you get obliterated by any condi build. > > > > > Edit: if there no Guardian , you can replace Leeching Venoms > Flickering Shadows> Take less 33% damage while revealed. > > > Or add it up with the guardian prtection + 30% daredevil spec > > > > Yeah we already went over why Flickering Shadows is unplayable. And why those damage reductions dont save thief. You of course ignored that fact, as you do. > > a) Eevry spec cant cleanse it . Not all classes ave a evade>cleanse . Otherwise you wouldnt be among the ppl that whined about Core cuardians , where the have 2x condition to cleance (Burn + Vunibility) . > Daredevil is full defensive trait with 30% damage reduction . That passive can add up in a teamfight with Guardian Protcetion , while Tanks cannot benefit for multiply Protection for even reduced damage ,they must take Toughness (40% damage reduction) Amulet > Your tendency to repeat the same lie again hoping that it magically becomes true is getting incredibly annoying. No, every spec can cleanse it. As I said, if you cant cleanse a single weakness, you die to all condi builds. Thief is actually one of the worst classes at dealing with condis, and they have no trouble. Even besides the options each class has, there are 3 words here. Sigil of Cleansing. Its an offense/utility traitline. You mostly pick it for dash. The damage reduction can easily be stopped or negated. Thats why it doesnt work. Its also cute that you think other classes dont have damage reduction. And by cute I mean annoying. Also, why do you think DD only started being picked once DA was overnerfed, and only to replace DA? Could it, be, *gasp*, that the defenses DD gives to thief are *irrelevant*. Why yes, that is why. > b) You are saying to Tagra that leaching venoms > selfheal/do damage can be used once in burst ,for the SA its an offensive traitline > . But they can be used again when you stealth again . So even Shadow Arts with Shadow's Embrace + Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning , is a 3/4 a defensive traitline in the same time Sure, they can be used if you try to stealth again. So that way, in order to get minor healing, you take massive amounts of free damage, that not only *completely* negates the healing you were going for, but results in you taking massive damage leading to a net negative in survivability. I had already explained to you, at length, why people dont use stealth in-combat. You ignore it. Its an offense/utility traitline with the only defensive benefit being a single cleanse on your healing skill. > If the selfheal from those venoms Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning is not enought ,you should take Flickering Shadows for 33% damage redcuction and not to wrry if you dont have a Guardian on your Team And that would still be a bad build. Despite your obsession with that trait. So please, do not talk about thief, you are uninformed about it. > Or are we going to buff the auto of the Thiefs and then take it ? > Dunno what buffs thief should get. Dont really care about the details either. > How much damage reduction a True Assasin like Mesmer + Rev can get with Berseker Gear again ? Ignoring how irrelevant (or until recently non-existant) the damage reduction is on thief, Rev can get up to 200%. You didnt forget about Facet of Light, did you? Otherwise a constant 33% if they so choose. More if they were to use Hardening Persistence, but they dont, its not good. Oh whats that? Thats better than thieves, without any conditions and restrictions that make it perform way worse? Why colour me surprised. Whoops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer does *much* more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses *2* defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a *bad* sign. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense" > > > > > > > > > > > As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply). [Here](https://imgur.com/FvUR3l9) is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec *3* offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was *still* pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > L2read maybe? > > > > > > > > > I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer does *much* more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses *2* defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a *bad* sign. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense" > > > > > > > > > > > As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply). [Here](https://imgur.com/FvUR3l9) is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec *3* offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was *still* pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > L2read maybe? > > > > > > > > > I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And chaos isnt. Even Dueling is half-half. Its still more defensive traitlines than the DD SA Trickery thief. What, did you show Mesmer with *3* defensive traitlines there (actually, looking at the damage that appears to be exactly what it is). Your suggestion is that thief damage is fine because DD SA Trickery thief does only slightly less burst than a full defense Mesmer? Hah. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh no its 6k on light, *maybe* medium. On heavy its 4k. Thats absolutely *pathetic* in the current game balance. Even by thief standards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chaos is offensive?! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The traitline that features only 1 damage amplifying trait, which is for condi and as such not used for power, is offensive? What? > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, my point is if you want damage you should spec offensive traitlines. Like the core build on Vallun's video. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except thief *already* specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. They still do jack all damage. Even when they spec *3* offensive traitlines. Again, something *no* other class does. Even then do they not do as much damage as other classes do with *1* offensive traitline. So your point is basically "thief shouldnt do damage even if they go max glass cannon". > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again see Vallun's videos, 5k on heavy at 10min50 > > > > > > > > > > > > On a golem, with the full black powder damage combo that amps damage by more than a realistic scenario would allow. And with max stacked lead attacks (rather than the typical 0). Not in an actual game. There its indeed around 4k. > > > > > > > > > > There's a question mark on my post. I asked if you consider chaos offensive, since you said dueling is half half. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh. No, it is utility, Dueling is half-half. > > > > > > > > > Power mes uses 2 full offensive traitlines and a defensive one (looking at the traits choice). > > > > > D/P DD uses how many offensive ones? > > > > > > > > > > > > > It uses *1* full offensive one. Dueling is half half. Chaos is full defensive. D/P DD uses 1 full offensive one, and 2 half/half ones. Of course, if you want to count Dueling as a fully offensive one, then the answer is D/P DD uses *3*. Since Daredevil and Shadow Arts are as offensive as Dueling is. > > > > > > > > > When even one of the best thieves around says thief damage is fine, there's not much to argue. > > > > > > > > And when even *the* best thief says thief damage is far too low, then there's not much to argue. This is the problem with argumentum ab auctoritate, there is usually an even higher authority to invoke. Of course, both of those are fallacies. The truth is, we have to make our own arguments based on what we see. What we see is thief doing less damage with 3 full offense traitlines than even Core Engineer does with only *1* offense traitline. Thats too low. > > > > > > If u talking about sindrener that was a while back when he stated that, he hasn't had to many negative things to say recently about thief state so maybe he's adjusted to things and is now on page with vallun that thief is completely fine. These players know there stuff so if they say thiefs fine maybe it's just not ur thing anymore. Their still doing fine on the class so thief players who feel otherwise must be wrong in thinking thief is in a weak state. > > > > > > Nerf teef! :) > > > > He hasnt exactly said anything to the contrary either. And there is no doubt that the current meta puts thief at a heavy disadvantage. Then again, hasnt he tried swapping to Rev recently? > > Yeah but when u have the experience, and ur name tied to best player of a class he'd prob really have to be at a point of dislike of the class to ever switch. Plus he's not as good YET on rev lol. I mean it did happen before in HoT. 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Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > Except thief *already* specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (_cough_ herald _cough_). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > D/P SA DD: > > > > > > > > > > Shadow arts: defense, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > > Trickery: utility, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CMirage: > > > > > > > > > > Domination (utility, damage) > > > > > > > > > > Illusions (damage) > > > > > > > > > > Mirage (defense, a bit damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pHerald: > > > > > > > > > > Devastation: damage > > > > > > > > > > Invocation: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > Herald: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience. > > > > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: > > > > > > > > > > > > Weakening Strikes + Weakness to lower even more the enemy damage > > > > > > Marauder's Resilience > > > > > > Unhindered Combatant > > > > > > 30% damage redction + weakness > > > > > > > > > > Protection: 33-40% damage reduction without having to rely on an easily cleansed and not so easily applied condition. > > > > > > > > And the Thief can use the 30% damage reducttion AND benefit from Protections , for a totalof 48% damage reduction :P > > > > How muc damage reduction Berseker Mesmers have ? > > > > Also the WEaknessis applied every time you dodge + hit . Not all specs can cleanse it . And in teamfights your friends will aply their Weakness too :P > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the protection that thief totally has access to. Such as .... > > > .......... > > > Consume Ectoplasm, I guess? Thats about it though. > > > And yes, but thats a limited amount, and in fact *every* spec can cleanse it. If you cant cleanse a measily weakness, you get obliterated by any condi build. > > > > > > > Edit: if there no Guardian , you can replace Leeching Venoms > Flickering Shadows> Take less 33% damage while revealed. > > > > Or add it up with the guardian prtection + 30% daredevil spec > > > > > > Yeah we already went over why Flickering Shadows is unplayable. And why those damage reductions dont save thief. You of course ignored that fact, as you do. > > > > a) Eevry spec cant cleanse it . Not all classes ave a evade>cleanse . Otherwise you wouldnt be among the ppl that whined about Core cuardians , where the have 2x condition to cleance (Burn + Vunibility) . > > Daredevil is full defensive trait with 30% damage reduction . That passive can add up in a teamfight with Guardian Protcetion , while Tanks cannot benefit for multiply Protection for even reduced damage ,they must take Toughness (40% damage reduction) Amulet > > > > Your tendency to repeat the same lie again hoping that it magically becomes true is getting incredibly annoying. No, every spec can cleanse it. As I said, if you cant cleanse a single weakness, you die to all condi builds. Thief is actually one of the worst classes at dealing with condis, and they have no trouble. Even besides the options each class has, there are 3 words here. Sigil of Cleansing. > > Its an offense/utility traitline. You mostly pick it for dash. The damage reduction can easily be stopped or negated. Thats why it doesnt work. Its also cute that you think other classes dont have damage reduction. And by cute I mean annoying. Also, why do you think DD only started being picked once DA was overnerfed, and only to replace DA? Could it, be, *gasp*, that the defenses DD gives to thief are *irrelevant*. Why yes, that is why. > > > b) You are saying to Tagra that leaching venoms > selfheal/do damage can be used once in burst ,for the SA its an offensive traitline > > . But they can be used again when you stealth again . So even Shadow Arts with Shadow's Embrace + Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning , is a 3/4 a defensive traitline in the same time > > Sure, they can be used if you try to stealth again. So that way, in order to get minor healing, you take massive amounts of free damage, that not only *completely* negates the healing you were going for, but results in you taking massive damage leading to a net negative in survivability. I had already explained to you, at length, why people dont use stealth in-combat. You ignore it. Its an offense/utility traitline with the only defensive benefit being a single cleanse on your healing skill. > > > If the selfheal from those venoms Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning is not enought ,you should take Flickering Shadows for 33% damage redcuction and not to wrry if you dont have a Guardian on your Team > > And that would still be a bad build. Despite your obsession with that trait. So please, do not talk about thief, you are uninformed about it. > > > Or are we going to buff the auto of the Thiefs and then take it ? > > > > Dunno what buffs thief should get. Dont really care about the details either. > > > How much damage reduction a True Assasin like Mesmer + Rev can get with Berseker Gear again ? > > Ignoring how irrelevant (or until recently non-existant) the damage reduction is on thief, Rev can get up to 200%. You didnt forget about Facet of Light, did you? Otherwise a constant 33% if they so choose. More if they were to use Hardening Persistence, but they dont, its not good. Oh whats that? Thats better than thieves, without any conditions and restrictions that make it perform way worse? Why colour me surprised. Whoops. 1) **there are 3 words here. Sigil of Cleansing** , 9 cd . What if it cleanses instead : The Poison from auto attack ? The Blind from Shadowshot ? Daredevil Its a defensive traitline With Dash+ Weakneess + 30% damage reduction You cannot lie to ppl like Taygra that Darevedeil is a semi defensive because it has only Marauder's Resilience 2) You have 30% damage reduction + Black Powerder field, you wont take massive damage , now te majority of the other specs damage got gutted 3) I insist, if you believe that the Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning are not a good way to survibility , take the 33% damage redction 4) I dont care too ,what buff thief will get after the July Tournament , but atleast that the majority of the population cannot operate it :p 5)Facet of Light > stop attack > or cc him for some secs > change target > it was always worked since HoT . Hardening Persistence: -1.5% incoming damage > the majority of the Revs dont use the auras (every1 gets Boons) , but instead try to waste thier energy in Attacking with the sword attack . Again not a single true assasin can maintain 30% damage reduction Case closed , have a good day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this. > > > > > > But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer does *much* more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses *2* defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a *bad* sign. > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ > > > > > > > > Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense" > > > > As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines. > > > > > > I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply). [Here](https://imgur.com/FvUR3l9) is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average. > > > > > > And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec *3* offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was *still* pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines. > > > > L2read maybe? > > I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive. > > > > 5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance. > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this. > > > > > > But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer does *much* more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses *2* defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a *bad* sign. > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ > > > > > > > > Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense" > > > > As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines. > > > > > > I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply). [Here](https://imgur.com/FvUR3l9) is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average. > > > > > > And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec *3* offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was *still* pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines. > > > > L2read maybe? > > I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive. > > > > And chaos isnt. Even Dueling is half-half. Its still more defensive traitlines than the DD SA Trickery thief. What, did you show Mesmer with *3* defensive traitlines there (actually, looking at the damage that appears to be exactly what it is). Your suggestion is that thief damage is fine because DD SA Trickery thief does only slightly less burst than a full defense Mesmer? Hah. > > > 5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance. > > Oh no its 6k on light, *maybe* medium. On heavy its 4k. Thats absolutely *pathetic* in the current game balance. Even by thief standards. how is dueling half half traitline? is this about 3s vigor and 1,5s blind? is that what we call defensive ? following that logic deadly arts is half half traitline becouse mug heals for 1,5k and I doubt 1shot core would take chaos after the nerfs, it was taken for mobility and stealth, but in classical mesmer style it ate over 50% nerf in that front. I dont see a reason to pick 1shot core over power mirage, and that should say something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this. > > > > > > > But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer does *much* more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses *2* defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a *bad* sign. > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ > > > > > > > > > > Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense" > > > > > As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines. > > > > > > > > I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply). [Here](https://imgur.com/FvUR3l9) is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average. > > > > > > > > And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec *3* offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was *still* pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines. > > > > > > L2read maybe? > > > I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive. > > > > > > 5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance. > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > I've been saying that thief damage is good as long as you spec offensive stuff instead of defensive, giving the example of mesmer with defensive traitlines doing 9k power burst. Your core build is the perfect example of this. > > > > > > > But apparently for some thieves is easier to beg ANerf for damage buffs instead of figuring this stuff out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer does *much* more burst than 9k with defensive traitlines. Thief does less with 3 offensive traitlines. No, thief damage is pathetic. I mean, bloody hell, my Core Grenade Engineer build, which A, is not meta, and B, uses *2* defensive traitlines (Tools and Alchemy), does far more burst damage than his thief that runs full offense. Thats a *bad* sign. > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/a/TkSxzEZ > > > > > > > > > > Don't know why I waste my time, already know the answer "liar, fabricated, photoshop yadda yadda nonsense nonsense nonsense" > > > > > As for thief damage Vallun's video above prove it does fine damage as long as you spec offensive traitlines. > > > > > > > > I indeed do not know why you wasted time fabricating such an obvious joke of a screenshot. Standard build, Dueling 2 3 1, Domination 1 2 2, Chaos 3 1 2. Zerkers, scholars, compounding and exploitation, you know the drill. Mantra activated in advance so its might doesnt apply. Golem starts at above 50%, because otherwise several traits would be active. The damage is slightly higher than against a player potentially (Since the golem doesnt use any skills obviously, making shattered anguishs doubling apply). [Here](https://imgur.com/FvUR3l9) is the result. Notably, significantly higher than 9k. Its 15325 damage. There is also a power spike that just didnt fit in the combat log, but its only 350 damage so its irrelevant. And before you say "well thats because everything crit (ignoring that the same is true of the thief damage you liked to show)", the non-crit versions werent much lower. I think I got between 11k-12k on average. > > > > > > > > And no, Valluns video proved the opposite. He had to spec *3* offensive traitlines (something no other class has to do), and the damage was *still* pathetic. 4-6k backstabs, with little else in terms of followup. Again, I play Core Engineer. I do over 2000 more burst damage while using 2 defensive traitlines. I could push it much higher if I too ran 3 offense traitlines. > > > > > > L2read maybe? > > > I said defensive traits. Dom Duel are offensive. > > > > > > > And chaos isnt. Even Dueling is half-half. Its still more defensive traitlines than the DD SA Trickery thief. What, did you show Mesmer with *3* defensive traitlines there (actually, looking at the damage that appears to be exactly what it is). Your suggestion is that thief damage is fine because DD SA Trickery thief does only slightly less burst than a full defense Mesmer? Hah. > > > > > 5-6k backstabs on heavy is absolutely fine in the current game balance. > > > > Oh no its 6k on light, *maybe* medium. On heavy its 4k. Thats absolutely *pathetic* in the current game balance. Even by thief standards. > > how is dueling half half traitline? > is this about 3s vigor and 1,5s blind? is that what we call defensive ? I was thinking Desperate Decoy, actually. As well as those. Youre right, its not much, and I am being generous with it. But thats because the same is true for Shadow Arts. People call it a defensive traitline when the only real defense it gives is 1 condi cleanse when using your healing skill. > following that logic deadly arts is half half traitline becouse mug heals for 1,5k Not entirely incorrect. But DA is not being used correctly anyway. > and I doubt 1shot core would take chaos after the nerfs, it was taken for mobility and stealth, but in classical mesmer style it ate over 50% nerf in that front. > I dont see a reason to pick 1shot core over power mirage, and that should say something My impression was that it was mostly used for PU, which wasnt nerfed at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > Except thief *already* specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (_cough_ herald _cough_). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > D/P SA DD: > > > > > > > > > > > Shadow arts: defense, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > > > Trickery: utility, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CMirage: > > > > > > > > > > > Domination (utility, damage) > > > > > > > > > > > Illusions (damage) > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage (defense, a bit damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pHerald: > > > > > > > > > > > Devastation: damage > > > > > > > > > > > Invocation: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > Herald: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Weakening Strikes + Weakness to lower even more the enemy damage > > > > > > > Marauder's Resilience > > > > > > > Unhindered Combatant > > > > > > > 30% damage redction + weakness > > > > > > > > > > > > Protection: 33-40% damage reduction without having to rely on an easily cleansed and not so easily applied condition. > > > > > > > > > > And the Thief can use the 30% damage reducttion AND benefit from Protections , for a totalof 48% damage reduction :P > > > > > How muc damage reduction Berseker Mesmers have ? > > > > > Also the WEaknessis applied every time you dodge + hit . Not all specs can cleanse it . And in teamfights your friends will aply their Weakness too :P > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the protection that thief totally has access to. Such as .... > > > > .......... > > > > Consume Ectoplasm, I guess? Thats about it though. > > > > And yes, but thats a limited amount, and in fact *every* spec can cleanse it. If you cant cleanse a measily weakness, you get obliterated by any condi build. > > > > > > > > > Edit: if there no Guardian , you can replace Leeching Venoms > Flickering Shadows> Take less 33% damage while revealed. > > > > > Or add it up with the guardian prtection + 30% daredevil spec > > > > > > > > Yeah we already went over why Flickering Shadows is unplayable. And why those damage reductions dont save thief. You of course ignored that fact, as you do. > > > > > > a) Eevry spec cant cleanse it . Not all classes ave a evade>cleanse . Otherwise you wouldnt be among the ppl that whined about Core cuardians , where the have 2x condition to cleance (Burn + Vunibility) . > > > Daredevil is full defensive trait with 30% damage reduction . That passive can add up in a teamfight with Guardian Protcetion , while Tanks cannot benefit for multiply Protection for even reduced damage ,they must take Toughness (40% damage reduction) Amulet > > > > > > > Your tendency to repeat the same lie again hoping that it magically becomes true is getting incredibly annoying. No, every spec can cleanse it. As I said, if you cant cleanse a single weakness, you die to all condi builds. Thief is actually one of the worst classes at dealing with condis, and they have no trouble. Even besides the options each class has, there are 3 words here. Sigil of Cleansing. > > > > Its an offense/utility traitline. You mostly pick it for dash. The damage reduction can easily be stopped or negated. Thats why it doesnt work. Its also cute that you think other classes dont have damage reduction. And by cute I mean annoying. Also, why do you think DD only started being picked once DA was overnerfed, and only to replace DA? Could it, be, *gasp*, that the defenses DD gives to thief are *irrelevant*. Why yes, that is why. > > > > > b) You are saying to Tagra that leaching venoms > selfheal/do damage can be used once in burst ,for the SA its an offensive traitline > > > . But they can be used again when you stealth again . So even Shadow Arts with Shadow's Embrace + Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning , is a 3/4 a defensive traitline in the same time > > > > Sure, they can be used if you try to stealth again. So that way, in order to get minor healing, you take massive amounts of free damage, that not only *completely* negates the healing you were going for, but results in you taking massive damage leading to a net negative in survivability. I had already explained to you, at length, why people dont use stealth in-combat. You ignore it. Its an offense/utility traitline with the only defensive benefit being a single cleanse on your healing skill. > > > > > If the selfheal from those venoms Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning is not enought ,you should take Flickering Shadows for 33% damage redcuction and not to wrry if you dont have a Guardian on your Team > > > > And that would still be a bad build. Despite your obsession with that trait. So please, do not talk about thief, you are uninformed about it. > > > > > Or are we going to buff the auto of the Thiefs and then take it ? > > > > > > > Dunno what buffs thief should get. Dont really care about the details either. > > > > > How much damage reduction a True Assasin like Mesmer + Rev can get with Berseker Gear again ? > > > > Ignoring how irrelevant (or until recently non-existant) the damage reduction is on thief, Rev can get up to 200%. You didnt forget about Facet of Light, did you? Otherwise a constant 33% if they so choose. More if they were to use Hardening Persistence, but they dont, its not good. Oh whats that? Thats better than thieves, without any conditions and restrictions that make it perform way worse? Why colour me surprised. Whoops. > > > 1) **there are 3 words here. Sigil of Cleansing** , 9 cd . What if it cleanses instead : > The Poison from auto attack ? > The Blind from Shadowshot ? > The poison from autoattack they hadnt applied yet? The blind that you cleared by attacking? > Daredevil Its a defensive traitline With Dash+ Weakneess + 30% damage reduction > You cannot lie to ppl like Taygra that Darevedeil is a semi defensive because it has only Marauder's Resilience > Its not. Dash's damage reduction is the least relevant part of it. Which is to say, basically not at all relevant. The weakness just gets cleared off. The damage reduction, despite your desperate insistence that it totally is big and matters a lot, is irrelevant. > 2) You have 30% damage reduction + Black Powerder field, you wont take massive damage , now te majority of the other specs damage got gutted You dont, the weakness gets cleared off, the enemies attack outside the range threshold, lots of ways to undo or negate it. The black powder field doesnt pulse blind very often. You *will* take massive damage, no matter how much you hate that truth. > 3) I insist, if you believe that the Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning are not a good way to survibility , take the 33% damage redction They arent good survivability. But guess what? Its a good thing you dont pick them for survivability, but damage. Flickering Shadows is still unplayable. I know youre obsessed with unplayable thief traits that you desperately want to be good, but they remain unplayable. > 4) I dont care too ,what buff thief will get after the July Tournament , but atleast that the majority of the population cannot operate it :p The thief players can. You certainly cant, you dont even know theb asics of thief. > 5)Facet of Light > stop attack > or cc him for some secs > change target > it was always worked since HoT . Other than if you put conditions on him. And you know, even in that situation its 100% damage reduction, because he forces you to stop attacking him. > Hardening Persistence: -1.5% incoming damage > the majority of the Revs dont use the auras (every1 gets Boons) , but instead try to waste thier energy in Attacking with the sword attack . Hence why I said its bad and not used. > Again not a single true assasin can maintain 30% damage reduction > You forgot the pulsing protection, didnt you? Rev can absolutely maintain 33% damage reduction. Without the many problems that make thieves damage reduction irrelevant. Youre wrong, as inevitably you are every time you talk about thief. At this point a good way to learn about thief is to take what you say and just assume the opposite is true. > Case closed , have a good day > Indeed, case closed. You were wrong. As you were every time before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 @"UNOwen.7132" nah,mobility was the key, and even if PU was not nerfed they sure did nerf desperate decoy an hmm decoy, nerfing around the issue as always. I would trade stealth for mobility any day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" nah,mobility was the key, and even if PU was not nerfed they sure did nerf desperate decoy an hmm decoy, nerfing around the issue as always. > I would trade stealth for mobility any day So they did. Honestly Ive only really looked super-closely at the Engineer part of the patchnotes, since thats the class Im playing. Wonder what core Mesmer would even run then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Except thief *already* specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (_cough_ herald _cough_). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > D/P SA DD: > > > > > > > > > > > > Shadow arts: defense, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > > > > Trickery: utility, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CMirage: > > > > > > > > > > > > Domination (utility, damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > Illusions (damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage (defense, a bit damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pHerald: > > > > > > > > > > > > Devastation: damage > > > > > > > > > > > > Invocation: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > > Herald: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Weakening Strikes + Weakness to lower even more the enemy damage > > > > > > > > Marauder's Resilience > > > > > > > > Unhindered Combatant > > > > > > > > 30% damage redction + weakness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Protection: 33-40% damage reduction without having to rely on an easily cleansed and not so easily applied condition. > > > > > > > > > > > > And the Thief can use the 30% damage reducttion AND benefit from Protections , for a totalof 48% damage reduction :P > > > > > > How muc damage reduction Berseker Mesmers have ? > > > > > > Also the WEaknessis applied every time you dodge + hit . Not all specs can cleanse it . And in teamfights your friends will aply their Weakness too :P > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the protection that thief totally has access to. Such as .... > > > > > .......... > > > > > Consume Ectoplasm, I guess? Thats about it though. > > > > > And yes, but thats a limited amount, and in fact *every* spec can cleanse it. If you cant cleanse a measily weakness, you get obliterated by any condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: if there no Guardian , you can replace Leeching Venoms > Flickering Shadows> Take less 33% damage while revealed. > > > > > > Or add it up with the guardian prtection + 30% daredevil spec > > > > > > > > > > Yeah we already went over why Flickering Shadows is unplayable. And why those damage reductions dont save thief. You of course ignored that fact, as you do. > > > > > > > > a) Eevry spec cant cleanse it . Not all classes ave a evade>cleanse . Otherwise you wouldnt be among the ppl that whined about Core cuardians , where the have 2x condition to cleance (Burn + Vunibility) . > > > > Daredevil is full defensive trait with 30% damage reduction . That passive can add up in a teamfight with Guardian Protcetion , while Tanks cannot benefit for multiply Protection for even reduced damage ,they must take Toughness (40% damage reduction) Amulet > > > > > > > > > > Your tendency to repeat the same lie again hoping that it magically becomes true is getting incredibly annoying. No, every spec can cleanse it. As I said, if you cant cleanse a single weakness, you die to all condi builds. Thief is actually one of the worst classes at dealing with condis, and they have no trouble. Even besides the options each class has, there are 3 words here. Sigil of Cleansing. > > > > > > Its an offense/utility traitline. You mostly pick it for dash. The damage reduction can easily be stopped or negated. Thats why it doesnt work. Its also cute that you think other classes dont have damage reduction. And by cute I mean annoying. Also, why do you think DD only started being picked once DA was overnerfed, and only to replace DA? Could it, be, *gasp*, that the defenses DD gives to thief are *irrelevant*. Why yes, that is why. > > > > > > > b) You are saying to Tagra that leaching venoms > selfheal/do damage can be used once in burst ,for the SA its an offensive traitline > > > > . But they can be used again when you stealth again . So even Shadow Arts with Shadow's Embrace + Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning , is a 3/4 a defensive traitline in the same time > > > > > > Sure, they can be used if you try to stealth again. So that way, in order to get minor healing, you take massive amounts of free damage, that not only *completely* negates the healing you were going for, but results in you taking massive damage leading to a net negative in survivability. I had already explained to you, at length, why people dont use stealth in-combat. You ignore it. Its an offense/utility traitline with the only defensive benefit being a single cleanse on your healing skill. > > > > > > > If the selfheal from those venoms Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning is not enought ,you should take Flickering Shadows for 33% damage redcuction and not to wrry if you dont have a Guardian on your Team > > > > > > And that would still be a bad build. Despite your obsession with that trait. So please, do not talk about thief, you are uninformed about it. > > > > > > > Or are we going to buff the auto of the Thiefs and then take it ? > > > > > > > > > > Dunno what buffs thief should get. Dont really care about the details either. > > > > > > > How much damage reduction a True Assasin like Mesmer + Rev can get with Berseker Gear again ? > > > > > > Ignoring how irrelevant (or until recently non-existant) the damage reduction is on thief, Rev can get up to 200%. You didnt forget about Facet of Light, did you? Otherwise a constant 33% if they so choose. More if they were to use Hardening Persistence, but they dont, its not good. Oh whats that? Thats better than thieves, without any conditions and restrictions that make it perform way worse? Why colour me surprised. Whoops. > > > > > > 1) **there are 3 words here. Sigil of Cleansing** , 9 cd . What if it cleanses instead : > > The Poison from auto attack ? > > The Blind from Shadowshot ? > > > > The poison from autoattack they hadnt applied yet? The blind that you cleared by attacking? > > > Daredevil Its a defensive traitline With Dash+ Weakneess + 30% damage reduction > > You cannot lie to ppl like Taygra that Darevedeil is a semi defensive because it has only Marauder's Resilience > > > > Its not. Dash's damage reduction is the least relevant part of it. Which is to say, basically not at all relevant. The weakness just gets cleared off. The damage reduction, despite your desperate insistence that it totally is big and matters a lot, is irrelevant. > > > 2) You have 30% damage reduction + Black Powerder field, you wont take massive damage , now te majority of the other specs damage got gutted > > You dont, the weakness gets cleared off, the enemies attack outside the range threshold, lots of ways to undo or negate it. The black powder field doesnt pulse blind very often. You *will* take massive damage, no matter how much you hate that truth. > > > 3) I insist, if you believe that the Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning are not a good way to survibility , take the 33% damage redction > > They arent good survivability. But guess what? Its a good thing you dont pick them for survivability, but damage. Flickering Shadows is still unplayable. I know youre obsessed with unplayable thief traits that you desperately want to be good, but they remain unplayable. > > > 4) I dont care too ,what buff thief will get after the July Tournament , but atleast that the majority of the population cannot operate it :p > > The thief players can. You certainly cant, you dont even know theb asics of thief. > > > 5)Facet of Light > stop attack > or cc him for some secs > change target > it was always worked since HoT . > > Other than if you put conditions on him. And you know, even in that situation its 100% damage reduction, because he forces you to stop attacking him. > > > Hardening Persistence: -1.5% incoming damage > the majority of the Revs dont use the auras (every1 gets Boons) , but instead try to waste thier energy in Attacking with the sword attack . > > Hence why I said its bad and not used. > > > Again not a single true assasin can maintain 30% damage reduction > > > > You forgot the pulsing protection, didnt you? Rev can absolutely maintain 33% damage reduction. Without the many problems that make thieves damage reduction irrelevant. Youre wrong, as inevitably you are every time you talk about thief. At this point a good way to learn about thief is to take what you say and just assume the opposite is true. > > > Case closed , have a good day > > > > Indeed, case closed. You were wrong. As you were every time before. 1) Yeah the one sigil that has 9 cd ,and the blackpodwer that pulse every 2 sec 2) You add up the other 2 traits with Dash (Weakening Strikes+Marauder's Resilience) for 305 damage reduction 3) Thief has mobility with dash , the enemy will not get out of range threashold 4) insist, if you believe that the Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning are not a good way to survibility , take the 33% damage redction 5)You dont even know that Daredevil give 30% damage reduction :P 6) You can cc him or kite him .Facet of Light doesnt give him 200% damage reduction as you are saying :P 7)Hardening Persistence: -1.5% incoming damage you linked me this trait , believing that Revs can get 30% damage reduction as Thief 8) If they waste and mainit the 33% protection ,they wont do Burst . While Thief is not using their resources to maintain the 30% damage redction from traits 9)Indeed, case closed. You were wrong. As you were every time before. 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UNOwen.7132 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Except thief *already* specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (_cough_ herald _cough_). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > D/P SA DD: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shadow arts: defense, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trickery: utility, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CMirage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Domination (utility, damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Illusions (damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage (defense, a bit damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pHerald: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devastation: damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > Invocation: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > Herald: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Weakening Strikes + Weakness to lower even more the enemy damage > > > > > > > > > Marauder's Resilience > > > > > > > > > Unhindered Combatant > > > > > > > > > 30% damage redction + weakness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Protection: 33-40% damage reduction without having to rely on an easily cleansed and not so easily applied condition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the Thief can use the 30% damage reducttion AND benefit from Protections , for a totalof 48% damage reduction :P > > > > > > > How muc damage reduction Berseker Mesmers have ? > > > > > > > Also the WEaknessis applied every time you dodge + hit . Not all specs can cleanse it . And in teamfights your friends will aply their Weakness too :P > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the protection that thief totally has access to. Such as .... > > > > > > .......... > > > > > > Consume Ectoplasm, I guess? Thats about it though. > > > > > > And yes, but thats a limited amount, and in fact *every* spec can cleanse it. If you cant cleanse a measily weakness, you get obliterated by any condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: if there no Guardian , you can replace Leeching Venoms > Flickering Shadows> Take less 33% damage while revealed. > > > > > > > Or add it up with the guardian prtection + 30% daredevil spec > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah we already went over why Flickering Shadows is unplayable. And why those damage reductions dont save thief. You of course ignored that fact, as you do. > > > > > > > > > > a) Eevry spec cant cleanse it . Not all classes ave a evade>cleanse . Otherwise you wouldnt be among the ppl that whined about Core cuardians , where the have 2x condition to cleance (Burn + Vunibility) . > > > > > Daredevil is full defensive trait with 30% damage reduction . That passive can add up in a teamfight with Guardian Protcetion , while Tanks cannot benefit for multiply Protection for even reduced damage ,they must take Toughness (40% damage reduction) Amulet > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your tendency to repeat the same lie again hoping that it magically becomes true is getting incredibly annoying. No, every spec can cleanse it. As I said, if you cant cleanse a single weakness, you die to all condi builds. Thief is actually one of the worst classes at dealing with condis, and they have no trouble. Even besides the options each class has, there are 3 words here. Sigil of Cleansing. > > > > > > > > Its an offense/utility traitline. You mostly pick it for dash. The damage reduction can easily be stopped or negated. Thats why it doesnt work. Its also cute that you think other classes dont have damage reduction. And by cute I mean annoying. Also, why do you think DD only started being picked once DA was overnerfed, and only to replace DA? Could it, be, *gasp*, that the defenses DD gives to thief are *irrelevant*. Why yes, that is why. > > > > > > > > > b) You are saying to Tagra that leaching venoms > selfheal/do damage can be used once in burst ,for the SA its an offensive traitline > > > > > . But they can be used again when you stealth again . So even Shadow Arts with Shadow's Embrace + Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning , is a 3/4 a defensive traitline in the same time > > > > > > > > Sure, they can be used if you try to stealth again. So that way, in order to get minor healing, you take massive amounts of free damage, that not only *completely* negates the healing you were going for, but results in you taking massive damage leading to a net negative in survivability. I had already explained to you, at length, why people dont use stealth in-combat. You ignore it. Its an offense/utility traitline with the only defensive benefit being a single cleanse on your healing skill. > > > > > > > > > If the selfheal from those venoms Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning is not enought ,you should take Flickering Shadows for 33% damage redcuction and not to wrry if you dont have a Guardian on your Team > > > > > > > > And that would still be a bad build. Despite your obsession with that trait. So please, do not talk about thief, you are uninformed about it. > > > > > > > > > Or are we going to buff the auto of the Thiefs and then take it ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dunno what buffs thief should get. Dont really care about the details either. > > > > > > > > > How much damage reduction a True Assasin like Mesmer + Rev can get with Berseker Gear again ? > > > > > > > > Ignoring how irrelevant (or until recently non-existant) the damage reduction is on thief, Rev can get up to 200%. You didnt forget about Facet of Light, did you? Otherwise a constant 33% if they so choose. More if they were to use Hardening Persistence, but they dont, its not good. Oh whats that? Thats better than thieves, without any conditions and restrictions that make it perform way worse? Why colour me surprised. Whoops. > > > > > > > > > 1) **there are 3 words here. Sigil of Cleansing** , 9 cd . What if it cleanses instead : > > > The Poison from auto attack ? > > > The Blind from Shadowshot ? > > > > > > > The poison from autoattack they hadnt applied yet? The blind that you cleared by attacking? > > > > > Daredevil Its a defensive traitline With Dash+ Weakneess + 30% damage reduction > > > You cannot lie to ppl like Taygra that Darevedeil is a semi defensive because it has only Marauder's Resilience > > > > > > > Its not. Dash's damage reduction is the least relevant part of it. Which is to say, basically not at all relevant. The weakness just gets cleared off. The damage reduction, despite your desperate insistence that it totally is big and matters a lot, is irrelevant. > > > > > 2) You have 30% damage reduction + Black Powerder field, you wont take massive damage , now te majority of the other specs damage got gutted > > > > You dont, the weakness gets cleared off, the enemies attack outside the range threshold, lots of ways to undo or negate it. The black powder field doesnt pulse blind very often. You *will* take massive damage, no matter how much you hate that truth. > > > > > 3) I insist, if you believe that the Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning are not a good way to survibility , take the 33% damage redction > > > > They arent good survivability. But guess what? Its a good thing you dont pick them for survivability, but damage. Flickering Shadows is still unplayable. I know youre obsessed with unplayable thief traits that you desperately want to be good, but they remain unplayable. > > > > > 4) I dont care too ,what buff thief will get after the July Tournament , but atleast that the majority of the population cannot operate it :p > > > > The thief players can. You certainly cant, you dont even know theb asics of thief. > > > > > 5)Facet of Light > stop attack > or cc him for some secs > change target > it was always worked since HoT . > > > > Other than if you put conditions on him. And you know, even in that situation its 100% damage reduction, because he forces you to stop attacking him. > > > > > Hardening Persistence: -1.5% incoming damage > the majority of the Revs dont use the auras (every1 gets Boons) , but instead try to waste thier energy in Attacking with the sword attack . > > > > Hence why I said its bad and not used. > > > > > Again not a single true assasin can maintain 30% damage reduction > > > > > > > You forgot the pulsing protection, didnt you? Rev can absolutely maintain 33% damage reduction. Without the many problems that make thieves damage reduction irrelevant. Youre wrong, as inevitably you are every time you talk about thief. At this point a good way to learn about thief is to take what you say and just assume the opposite is true. > > > > > Case closed , have a good day > > > > > > > Indeed, case closed. You were wrong. As you were every time before. > > 1) Yeah the one sigil that has 9 cd ,and the blackpodwer that pulse every 2 sec You dont clear the blind off with it. Im tired of trying to point out your lies every time. > 2) You add up the other 2 traits with Dash (Weakening Strikes+Marauder's Resilience) for 305 damage reduction Most of which wont apply for different reasons. Im still tired of trying to point out your lies every time. > 3) Thief has mobility with dash , the enemy will not get out of range threashold If thief uses dash for mobility, he will be hit with exhaustion and lose that mobility. The enemy easily can get out of the range threshold, especially in the hypothetical teamfights you want to think of. > 4) insist, if you believe that the Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning are not a good way to survibility , take the 33% damage redction Still not picked for survivability, flickering shadows is still unplayable. > 5)You dont even know that Daredevil give 30% damage reduction :P I did. Unlike you however, I still know it doesnt work out that way and is irrelevant. Please, stop talking about thief, your ignorance of thief is giving me a headache. > 6) You can cc him or kite him .Facet of Light doesnt give him 200% damage reduction as you are saying :P Still conditions. If you "kite him", youre still not doing damage, so its 100% damage reduction. God please just stop annoying me with your lies. > 7)Hardening Persistence: -1.5% incoming damage you linked me this trait , believing that Revs can get 30% damage reduction as Thief "Otherwise a constant 33% if they so choose. **MORE** if they were to use Hardening Persistence". Is the meaning of the word "more" alient to you? > 8) If they waste and mainit the 33% protection ,they wont do Burst . While Thief is not using their resources to maintain the 30% damage redction from traits Well except for the resources thief *is* using to maintain them. Like endurance. Also, unlike thieves damage reduction that for most of the fight wont apply and is completely irrelevant, the protection will apply for most of the fight, and would be relevant if revenant was a brusier. Theyre not. So they dont really use it much. > 9)Indeed, case closed. You were wrong. As you were every time before. > Still parroting like a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except thief *already* specs more offensive traitlines than anyone else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Comparing all 3 high level meta roamers, it seems like herald specs the most non-damage traitlines while mirage and daredevil specs mostly damage. We both know who is the best roamer (_cough_ herald _cough_). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it isn't thief who specs the most damaging traitlines, it's equal with mirage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > D/P SA DD: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shadow arts: defense, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trickery: utility, a bit damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: a bit defense, a bit damage, a bit utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CMirage: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Domination (utility, damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Illusions (damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage (defense, a bit damage) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pHerald: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devastation: damage > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Invocation: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Herald: defense, utility > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is in a similar spot. That I dont disagree with. Though I would say, Shadow Arts has basically no defense whatsoever (the healing is usually burned up before you even take damage), its a damage/utility traitline. Same with Trickery. Daredevil is the only one somewhat defensive, and thats pretty much just because of Marauders Resilience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daredevil: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Weakening Strikes + Weakness to lower even more the enemy damage > > > > > > > > > > Marauder's Resilience > > > > > > > > > > Unhindered Combatant > > > > > > > > > > 30% damage redction + weakness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Protection: 33-40% damage reduction without having to rely on an easily cleansed and not so easily applied condition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And the Thief can use the 30% damage reducttion AND benefit from Protections , for a totalof 48% damage reduction :P > > > > > > > > How muc damage reduction Berseker Mesmers have ? > > > > > > > > Also the WEaknessis applied every time you dodge + hit . Not all specs can cleanse it . And in teamfights your friends will aply their Weakness too :P > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the protection that thief totally has access to. Such as .... > > > > > > > .......... > > > > > > > Consume Ectoplasm, I guess? Thats about it though. > > > > > > > And yes, but thats a limited amount, and in fact *every* spec can cleanse it. If you cant cleanse a measily weakness, you get obliterated by any condi build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: if there no Guardian , you can replace Leeching Venoms > Flickering Shadows> Take less 33% damage while revealed. > > > > > > > > Or add it up with the guardian prtection + 30% daredevil spec > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah we already went over why Flickering Shadows is unplayable. And why those damage reductions dont save thief. You of course ignored that fact, as you do. > > > > > > > > > > > > a) Eevry spec cant cleanse it . Not all classes ave a evade>cleanse . Otherwise you wouldnt be among the ppl that whined about Core cuardians , where the have 2x condition to cleance (Burn + Vunibility) . > > > > > > Daredevil is full defensive trait with 30% damage reduction . That passive can add up in a teamfight with Guardian Protcetion , while Tanks cannot benefit for multiply Protection for even reduced damage ,they must take Toughness (40% damage reduction) Amulet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your tendency to repeat the same lie again hoping that it magically becomes true is getting incredibly annoying. No, every spec can cleanse it. As I said, if you cant cleanse a single weakness, you die to all condi builds. Thief is actually one of the worst classes at dealing with condis, and they have no trouble. Even besides the options each class has, there are 3 words here. Sigil of Cleansing. > > > > > > > > > > Its an offense/utility traitline. You mostly pick it for dash. The damage reduction can easily be stopped or negated. Thats why it doesnt work. Its also cute that you think other classes dont have damage reduction. And by cute I mean annoying. Also, why do you think DD only started being picked once DA was overnerfed, and only to replace DA? Could it, be, *gasp*, that the defenses DD gives to thief are *irrelevant*. Why yes, that is why. > > > > > > > > > > > b) You are saying to Tagra that leaching venoms > selfheal/do damage can be used once in burst ,for the SA its an offensive traitline > > > > > > . But they can be used again when you stealth again . So even Shadow Arts with Shadow's Embrace + Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning , is a 3/4 a defensive traitline in the same time > > > > > > > > > > Sure, they can be used if you try to stealth again. So that way, in order to get minor healing, you take massive amounts of free damage, that not only *completely* negates the healing you were going for, but results in you taking massive damage leading to a net negative in survivability. I had already explained to you, at length, why people dont use stealth in-combat. You ignore it. Its an offense/utility traitline with the only defensive benefit being a single cleanse on your healing skill. > > > > > > > > > > > If the selfheal from those venoms Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning is not enought ,you should take Flickering Shadows for 33% damage redcuction and not to wrry if you dont have a Guardian on your Team > > > > > > > > > > And that would still be a bad build. Despite your obsession with that trait. So please, do not talk about thief, you are uninformed about it. > > > > > > > > > > > Or are we going to buff the auto of the Thiefs and then take it ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dunno what buffs thief should get. Dont really care about the details either. > > > > > > > > > > > How much damage reduction a True Assasin like Mesmer + Rev can get with Berseker Gear again ? > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring how irrelevant (or until recently non-existant) the damage reduction is on thief, Rev can get up to 200%. You didnt forget about Facet of Light, did you? Otherwise a constant 33% if they so choose. More if they were to use Hardening Persistence, but they dont, its not good. Oh whats that? Thats better than thieves, without any conditions and restrictions that make it perform way worse? Why colour me surprised. Whoops. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) **there are 3 words here. Sigil of Cleansing** , 9 cd . What if it cleanses instead : > > > > The Poison from auto attack ? > > > > The Blind from Shadowshot ? > > > > > > > > > > The poison from autoattack they hadnt applied yet? The blind that you cleared by attacking? > > > > > > > Daredevil Its a defensive traitline With Dash+ Weakneess + 30% damage reduction > > > > You cannot lie to ppl like Taygra that Darevedeil is a semi defensive because it has only Marauder's Resilience > > > > > > > > > > Its not. Dash's damage reduction is the least relevant part of it. Which is to say, basically not at all relevant. The weakness just gets cleared off. The damage reduction, despite your desperate insistence that it totally is big and matters a lot, is irrelevant. > > > > > > > 2) You have 30% damage reduction + Black Powerder field, you wont take massive damage , now te majority of the other specs damage got gutted > > > > > > You dont, the weakness gets cleared off, the enemies attack outside the range threshold, lots of ways to undo or negate it. The black powder field doesnt pulse blind very often. You *will* take massive damage, no matter how much you hate that truth. > > > > > > > 3) I insist, if you believe that the Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning are not a good way to survibility , take the 33% damage redction > > > > > > They arent good survivability. But guess what? Its a good thing you dont pick them for survivability, but damage. Flickering Shadows is still unplayable. I know youre obsessed with unplayable thief traits that you desperately want to be good, but they remain unplayable. > > > > > > > 4) I dont care too ,what buff thief will get after the July Tournament , but atleast that the majority of the population cannot operate it :p > > > > > > The thief players can. You certainly cant, you dont even know theb asics of thief. > > > > > > > 5)Facet of Light > stop attack > or cc him for some secs > change target > it was always worked since HoT . > > > > > > Other than if you put conditions on him. And you know, even in that situation its 100% damage reduction, because he forces you to stop attacking him. > > > > > > > Hardening Persistence: -1.5% incoming damage > the majority of the Revs dont use the auras (every1 gets Boons) , but instead try to waste thier energy in Attacking with the sword attack . > > > > > > Hence why I said its bad and not used. > > > > > > > Again not a single true assasin can maintain 30% damage reduction > > > > > > > > > > You forgot the pulsing protection, didnt you? Rev can absolutely maintain 33% damage reduction. Without the many problems that make thieves damage reduction irrelevant. Youre wrong, as inevitably you are every time you talk about thief. At this point a good way to learn about thief is to take what you say and just assume the opposite is true. > > > > > > > Case closed , have a good day > > > > > > > > > > Indeed, case closed. You were wrong. As you were every time before. > > > > 1) Yeah the one sigil that has 9 cd ,and the blackpodwer that pulse every 2 sec > > You dont clear the blind off with it. Im tired of trying to point out your lies every time. > > > 2) You add up the other 2 traits with Dash (Weakening Strikes+Marauder's Resilience) for 305 damage reduction > > Most of which wont apply for different reasons. Im still tired of trying to point out your lies every time. > > > 3) Thief has mobility with dash , the enemy will not get out of range threashold > > If thief uses dash for mobility, he will be hit with exhaustion and lose that mobility. The enemy easily can get out of the range threshold, especially in the hypothetical teamfights you want to think of. > > > 4) insist, if you believe that the Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning are not a good way to survibility , take the 33% damage redction > > Still not picked for survivability, flickering shadows is still unplayable. > > > 5)You dont even know that Daredevil give 30% damage reduction :P > > I did. Unlike you however, I still know it doesnt work out that way and is irrelevant. Please, stop talking about thief, your ignorance of thief is giving me a headache. > > > 6) You can cc him or kite him .Facet of Light doesnt give him 200% damage reduction as you are saying :P > > Still conditions. If you "kite him", youre still not doing damage, so its 100% damage reduction. God please just stop annoying me with your lies. > > > 7)Hardening Persistence: -1.5% incoming damage you linked me this trait , believing that Revs can get 30% damage reduction as Thief > > "Otherwise a constant 33% if they so choose. **MORE** if they were to use Hardening Persistence". Is the meaning of the word "more" alient to you? > > > 8) If they waste and mainit the 33% protection ,they wont do Burst . While Thief is not using their resources to maintain the 30% damage redction from traits > > Well except for the resources thief *is* using to maintain them. Like endurance. Also, unlike thieves damage reduction that for most of the fight wont apply and is completely irrelevant, the protection will apply for most of the fight, and would be relevant if revenant was a brusier. Theyre not. So they dont really use it much. > > > 9)Indeed, case closed. You were wrong. As you were every time before. > > > > Still parroting like a child. 1) You said that a player will remove the Weakness with the sigil . Who could thought that Thief can cover that debuff with Blind and Poison. And not you tell me that he wont use the sigil to cleance the Weakness ? The sigil magically cleanse the debuff you want ? 2) Marauder's Resilience -10% you must be near him Unhindered Combatant -10% when you use dodge ...so avoid an attack succefully or not and still get the 10% reduction Weakening Strikes -10% , dont suffecully evade attack...just use dodge once 3) You can Dash 3 times . Its not like you crippled once , you can do only 1 dodge 4)I i nsist, if you believe that the Leeching Venoms + Shadow Siphoning are not a good way to survibility , take the 33% damage redction 5)Please, stop talking about thief, your ignorance of thief is giving me a headache. 6)You can cc him or kite him .Facet of Light doesnt give him 200% damage reduction as you are saying :P 7)Hardening Persistence: -1.5% incoming damage you linked me this trait , believing that Revs can get 30% damage reduction as Thief 8)Rev must sucrifice his resources to either maintain his aoes boon +Hardening Persistence , or use it for attack . The this is rewarded with dodgind and his resources dont get affected (Weakening Strikes +Unhindered Combatant+ Marauder's Resilience) 9)Still parroting like a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider.4283 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 So the issue is not theif being unplayable, its most other professions being overtuned with lower risk high reward mechanics. Thats the reason for players finding thief unplayable... why is it then surprise to see such topics. Everyhthing needs balancing in context not just blanket changes. Theif has suffered from this approach. Therefore theif is not fine, I dont speak for every theif player or claim to know how many run these 'sustain' builds spoken of, its a fact that thief does less damage than before and the profession requires damage to work even as a +1 from my personal experience playing this profession over the last 8 years. Simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 Condi teef meta? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 Since u guys take streamers as the rule watch noody most recent stream, was having a bad time dropping rating playing his thief and was raging until he swapped to mes to climb back up and was having a way better time. Funny hearing all the mesmers saying their weak and complain about thief lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Since u guys take streamers as the rule watch noody most recent stream, was having a bad time dropping rating playing his thief and was raging until he swapped to mes to climb back up and was having a way better time. Funny hearing all the mesmers saying their weak and complain about thief lol as a Mesmer Profession main, i say they both are Toxic and are needed for a complete redesign. Yes, i know you will say that Anet will not do it and as a result the population will continue to drop as word-of-mouth and streamers are telling the entire Truth, that players experiences does not matter in Guild Wars 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Since u guys take streamers as the rule watch noody most recent stream, was having a bad time dropping rating playing his thief and was raging until he swapped to mes to climb back up and was having a way better time. Funny hearing all the mesmers saying their weak and complain about thief lol It took 0.1 seconds for me to alt+f4 1) Playing power thief (only helpful in high ranks like mesmer portal, go condi in lower ranks) below P2 in 2020 2) Playing mesmer without blink and arcane thievery good memes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > Since u guys take streamers as the rule watch noody most recent stream, was having a bad time dropping rating playing his thief and was raging until he swapped to mes to climb back up and was having a way better time. Funny hearing all the mesmers saying their weak and complain about thief lol > > It took 0.1 seconds for me to alt+f4 > > 1) Playing power thief (only helpful in high ranks like mesmer portal, go condi in lower ranks) below P2 in 2020 > 2) Playing mesmer without blink and arcane thievery good memes I watched noody video, argued that condi mes is OP while attacking condi mes clones for 15s, flailing around uselesly, proceeded to move mid, throw rock at a guy for like 11k. In his mind him using rampage and throwing rock for 11k as unkillable tank was fine, but condi mes was aids becouse he got lost in clones ;p edit might not have been noody, some other blue haired weeb, there is many of them lol edit 2 it was happy no, mistook him for noody due to simialr weeb icon lul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > Since u guys take streamers as the rule watch noody most recent stream, was having a bad time dropping rating playing his thief and was raging until he swapped to mes to climb back up and was having a way better time. Funny hearing all the mesmers saying their weak and complain about thief lol > > > > It took 0.1 seconds for me to alt+f4 > > > > 1) Playing power thief (only helpful in high ranks like mesmer portal, go condi in lower ranks) below P2 in 2020 > > 2) Playing mesmer without blink and arcane thievery good memes > > I watched noody video, argued that condi mes is OP while attacking condi mes clones for 15s, flailing around uselesly, proceeded to move mid, throw rock at a guy for like 16k. In his mind him using rampage and throwing rock for 16k as unkillable tank was fine, but condi mes was aids becouse he got lost in clones ;p My point was he was having a rough time on his main, switched to mesmer and had way better time. Even joked that his saying is if ur ranks ever tanking just jump to mesme to climb. I'm not stating mes is OP or thief isnt just stating how HIS bmstream went since players take streamers and what they say as the be all end a defacto facts lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > since players take streamers and what they say as the be all end a defacto facts lol. Well this is even more true for thief players, most of them play what Sindrener plays. (There is only a few mesmer streamer btw, and nobody plays Vallun's mesmer build) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > since players take streamers and what they say as the be all end a defacto facts lol. > > Well this is even more true for thief players, most of them play what Sindrener plays. > > (There is only a few mesmer streamer btw, and nobody plays Vallun's mesmer build) Sindrener is the best thief in the game. Why waste time on any other nit pick hot air as a guide? (most "mes" mains are just metabattle zombies) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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