saerni.2584 Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > Make repeater one use per shadow strike, easy to chopped down dps really simple. Do that and people will complain it can kite even better than before. Don’t get me wrong. I’ll take it. But yeah...some people will never be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Choking Gas falls under their "CC cant do damage" rule. Believe it or not, dazes still do damage lol. Warrior dagger 3 is a nice example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 > @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > Make repeater one use per shadow strike, easy to chopped down dps really simple. > > Do that and people will complain it can kite even better than before. > > Don’t get me wrong. I’ll take it. But yeah...some people will never be happy. it would be the old version, but yep. they would complain. (i mean except with repeater) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > Make repeater one use per shadow strike, easy to chopped down dps really simple. > > > > Do that and people will complain it can kite even better than before. > > > > Don’t get me wrong. I’ll take it. But yeah...some people will never be happy. > > it would be the old version, but yep. > > they would complain. > > (i mean except with repeater) It’s actually what I wanted originally when they proposed the change. @"babazhook.6805" argued the timer based version was better because it had higher sustained pressure. I was worried though because I liked using well timed Shadowstrikes to kite and being locked out of the skill posed a higher vulnerability to melee fighters. I’ve since accepted that the lockout timer is reasonable length. But I would take it as a flip skill just as much. @"bethekey.8314" You might want to check out Vallun’s recent video of about a week old on how thief is in a good spot. He gives out the P/D build, with several others, to thieves and suggests the P/D shows there might need to be a nerf to Thieves Guild and Spider Venom sharing in particular. There’s a top player showing off and discussing the build. He even has indicated, as I did, what is making this build problematic for people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poledra Val.1490 Posted May 8, 2020 Author Share Posted May 8, 2020 Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernRedStar.3054 Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epoc.7941 Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 It’s ridiculous to think this build needs to be nerfed it’s Great when u can catch someone off guard (but what build isn’t) however it has counters and there’s plenty of condo cleanse in pvp to go around. What’s truly obnoxious is the pvp communities tendency to get upset every time a thief does/has something decent to offer. Here’s the thing the class inherently is made to harass annoy and take out single targets so you’re upset that it’s being played the way it’s designed? CC and condis demolish this build honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. Because the problems with it are problems with conditions. Id rather they rework conditions first before they go after this build specifically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. > > people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing ^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief. Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all. The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game. No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bast.7253 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > > > > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. > > > > people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing > > ^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief. > > Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all. > > The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game. > > No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur. Couldn’t the same be said about a ton of other builds though? Is the problem that it’s efficient against too many builds? At most I would say leave the damage the same and remove some of the cover conditions so it’s easier to get the poison. But the main burst comes from the initial attack with venom utility applied. And if they’re running thieves guild with poison share, then yes, there’s little you can do other than cleave they thieves guild down or try to kite. But thieves guild even on a power build is pretty strong. To be honest though, you can build a chrono to play pretty similarly. This build is kind of necessary in this meta though as a thief to be able to be efficient against bunkers. And in high level gameplay I doubt this build is that much of an issue. It’s still heavily dependent on having a good team and if you’re running core you’re sacrificing mobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 Please nerf repeater. It should only be a one time cast, hit or miss no matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernRedStar.3054 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > > > > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. > > > > people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing > > ^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief. > > Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all. > > The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game. > > No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur. Agreed, this was one of the reasons why the new rune system, at least in the beginning, COMPLETELY ruined League of Legends. Since you could not properly adapt your setup based on each matchup (by selecting armor instead of magic pen, for example), you'd have a very clearly defined matchup sheet of favored/unfavored ones. What does this do? Well, obviously it diminishes the skill cap AND floor, since players knowing their champions inside out are at a major disadvantage regardless of how well they know their mechanics and trades. Meanwhile, any noob can pick up a champion that's relatively good against the opposition, and pilot at a level they don't belong in. Or, in layman's words, this is _an artificial way of evening out skill difference._ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"cptaylor.2670" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > > > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > > > > > > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. > > > > > > people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing > > > > ^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief. > > > > Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all. > > > > The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game. > > > > No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur. > > > Couldn’t the same be said about a ton of other builds though? Is the problem that it’s efficient against too many builds? At most I would say leave the damage the same and remove some of the cover conditions so it’s easier to get the poison. But the main burst comes from the initial attack with venom utility applied. > > And if they’re running thieves guild with poison share, then yes, there’s little you can do other than cleave they thieves guild down or try to kite. But thieves guild even on a power build is pretty strong. > > To be honest though, you can build a chrono to play pretty similarly. > > This build is kind of necessary in this meta though as a thief to be able to be efficient against bunkers. And in high level gameplay I doubt this build is that much of an issue. It’s still heavily dependent on having a good team and if you’re running core you’re sacrificing mobility. > > there is couple of things wrong with the build. 1 it can duel people as the most mobile build in the game bar other thief. 2 it can 100%-0% people instantly from stealth unless they have cleanse that can bypass their cover condis, and the slower you are to cleanse the more cover you have to go through. 3 poison share is whacky with AI, giving 18 stacks of poison to AI that persists for 30s is stupid level of area denial. I honestly dont even think thief would use the poison if the AI wouldnt be so broken with it. 4 It makes every build without insta burst condi clear unplayable, its not like condi mes where you can avoid their burst due to torch 4 delay or keeping distance from clones to not get mass F2 shattered, you give ground but you are safe. No thief gains 15s stealth and at any moment he can jump on you from 1200 range and apply this level of damage. 5 all the while it can 1v1, chase people down and bully specific builds it still is very good +1 build, perma poison reduces healing, landing steal deals massive damage and as for utility they can spam the immob to shut down escape, all the while applying some damage, and even if you have good cleanseing, constant immob spam will force it out of you unless you have some VERY specific way of escaping. the only class I know that has good burst clear to contest this type of build is warrior due to shake it off and low CD mass cleanse healing skill, but warrior is in a bad spot and to top it off they cant reach thief anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"cptaylor.2670" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > > > > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. > > > > > > > > people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing > > > > > > ^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief. > > > > > > Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all. > > > > > > The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game. > > > > > > No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur. > > > > > > Couldn’t the same be said about a ton of other builds though? Is the problem that it’s efficient against too many builds? At most I would say leave the damage the same and remove some of the cover conditions so it’s easier to get the poison. But the main burst comes from the initial attack with venom utility applied. > > > > And if they’re running thieves guild with poison share, then yes, there’s little you can do other than cleave they thieves guild down or try to kite. But thieves guild even on a power build is pretty strong. > > > > To be honest though, you can build a chrono to play pretty similarly. > > > > This build is kind of necessary in this meta though as a thief to be able to be efficient against bunkers. And in high level gameplay I doubt this build is that much of an issue. It’s still heavily dependent on having a good team and if you’re running core you’re sacrificing mobility. > > > > > > there is couple of things wrong with the build. > 1 it can duel people as the most mobile build in the game bar other thief. > 2 it can 100%-0% people instantly from stealth unless they have cleanse that can bypass their cover condis, and the slower you are to cleanse the more cover you have to go through. > 3 poison share is whacky with AI, giving 18 stacks of poison to AI that persists for 30s is stupid level of area denial. I honestly dont even think thief would use the poison if the AI wouldnt be so broken with it. > 4 It makes every build without insta burst condi clear unplayable, its not like condi mes where you can avoid their burst due to torch 4 delay or keeping distance from clones to not get mass F2 shattered, you give ground but you are safe. No thief gains 15s stealth and at any moment he can jump on you from 1200 range and apply this level of damage. > 5 all the while it can 1v1, chase people down and bully specific builds it still is very good +1 build, perma poison reduces healing, landing steal deals massive damage and as for utility they can spam the immob to shut down escape, all the while applying some damage, and even if you have good cleanseing, constant immob spam will force it out of you unless you have some VERY specific way of escaping. > the only class I know that has good burst clear to contest this type of build is warrior due to shake it off and low CD mass cleanse healing skill, but warrior is in a bad spot and to top it off they cant reach thief anyways. 1) Ok so it can duel. That isn’t really a reason to nerf it. Plenty of these flavor of the month thieves are not winning those duels, however. 2) The cover condi isn’t particularly long duration. Mass cleanse of 4-5 will probably get rid of most of it. 3) Totally agree here. I’ve said for years that Spider Venom sharing is hard to balance. Six stacks is a lot but manageable. 18-30 stacks with a few human allies, or paired with a Mesmer + clones, and suddenly you are insanely powerful in spike damage. So yeah, the Thieves Guild version is actually much weaker than duo’ed with a condi Mesmer who coordinates with the venom share. A minion necro can also be a good teammate for this kind of gameplay. 4) I’d disagree about the need to burst cleanse yourself in all cases. There are several builds that draw condi onto themselves and then mass cleanse. Team play, generally, is the solution to a build that shines most when sharing venoms to its own team. Solo 1v1, you should have enough cleanse to handle the burst of condi or something to cleave down the Thieves Guild (part of the problem here is power might have been nerfed a little too much and now Thieves Guild just has a lot of HP, maybe too much). 5) Steal actually applies that poison, when traited, over a long period. The tick damage isn’t that much. The immobilize spam is on a super slow projectile that can be strafed rather easily. Don’t run in a straight line and you won’t get hit over 500 range. 6) Good warriors are actually best able to gap close then stun. The key is baiting the Shadowstep and then kiting in the opposite direction. They will just Shadow Return if you chase them at that point. They will probably go the full 1200 with Shadowstep so moving in the opposite direction puts you out of range of Steal. If they chase you then they will have lost two stun breaks and a huge part of their in combat mobility. Not only warrior can take advantage of that btw, Ranger variants with GS can use the mobility and blocking to gap close when it makes sense and put lots of pressure on the thief. Bonus: if they tried to gank you after stealthing for a long duration they probably won’t have any stealth available to escape with if they aren’t able to pull off the kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernRedStar.3054 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 The difference is, power builds miss their burst skills, they're "out" for ~20 seconds with only autos (which hit like paw paws now) to rely on. Because CC skills deal 0 damage, they cannot be used in the actual DPS rotation = longer downtimes per weapon set. Condi on the other hand relies mostly on passive traits and select low-cooldown skills that can be used in a more rapid succession than power atm. Pistol thief is perhaps one of the worst offenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > > > > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. > > > > people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing > > ^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief. > > Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all. > > The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game. > > No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur. Thats again not a problem with P/D condi. Thats just conditions in general. Builds that cant deal with P/D condi thief die just the same to condi mirage, condi rev, core condi necro or condi soulbeast. Those builds likewise "nullify man builds from playability just by existing". Because condi builds mean you have to have burst cleanse or youre screwed. Hence why the focus should be on reworking condi rather than targetting the FotM condi build (especially since if you do that, condi rev will just do the exact same thing and people will swap to complaining about that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > The difference is, power builds miss their burst skills, they're "out" for ~20 seconds with only autos (which hit like paw paws now) to rely on. Because CC skills deal 0 damage, they cannot be used in the actual DPS rotation = longer downtimes per weapon set. > > Condi on the other hand relies mostly on passive traits and select low-cooldown skills that can be used in a more rapid succession than power atm. Pistol thief is perhaps one of the worst offenders. Its not actually particularly bad. It has fewer on-X traits than some of the other builds, and repeater *can* actually be dealt with. But yes, this is the issue with conditions as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"cptaylor.2670" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > > > > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. > > > > > > > > people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing > > > > > > ^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief. > > > > > > Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all. > > > > > > The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game. > > > > > > No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur. > > > > > > Couldn’t the same be said about a ton of other builds though? Is the problem that it’s efficient against too many builds? At most I would say leave the damage the same and remove some of the cover conditions so it’s easier to get the poison. But the main burst comes from the initial attack with venom utility applied. > > > > And if they’re running thieves guild with poison share, then yes, there’s little you can do other than cleave they thieves guild down or try to kite. But thieves guild even on a power build is pretty strong. > > > > To be honest though, you can build a chrono to play pretty similarly. > > > > This build is kind of necessary in this meta though as a thief to be able to be efficient against bunkers. And in high level gameplay I doubt this build is that much of an issue. It’s still heavily dependent on having a good team and if you’re running core you’re sacrificing mobility. > > > > > > there is couple of things wrong with the build. > 1 it can duel people as the most mobile build in the game bar other thief. > 2 it can 100%-0% people instantly from stealth unless they have cleanse that can bypass their cover condis, and the slower you are to cleanse the more cover you have to go through. They only have 1 cover condi, weakness. Out of 3. If you can cleanse 3 condis at once (which most classes can do several times), youre fine. > 3 poison share is whacky with AI, giving 18 stacks of poison to AI that persists for 30s is stupid level of area denial. I honestly dont even think thief would use the poison if the AI wouldnt be so broken with it. They would use spider venom I imagine. You can still give it to your team for a bit of bonus burst. But yes, venomshare on thieves guild is dumb. > 4 It makes every build without insta burst condi clear unplayable, its not like condi mes where you can avoid their burst due to torch 4 delay or keeping distance from clones to not get mass F2 shattered, you give ground but you are safe. No thief gains 15s stealth and at any moment he can jump on you from 1200 range and apply this level of damage. Clearly you have not tried playing vs condi mesmer as a build without insta burst condi clear. Condi mesmer makes those builds equally unplayable. You cant really "avoid their burst" other than by running away and never looking back. And you can do the same with thief. The same is true for condi rev, condi necro and condi soulbeast. > 5 all the while it can 1v1, chase people down and bully specific builds it still is very good +1 build, perma poison reduces healing, landing steal deals massive damage and as for utility they can spam the immob to shut down escape, all the while applying some damage, and even if you have good cleanseing, constant immob spam will force it out of you unless you have some VERY specific way of escaping. Funny thing is, if they dont use skills (or just clear immediately), steal does close to no damage. The confusion is all of the damage, and if they dont spam blindly under it, they take almost no damage. Oh and the immob isnt used. Its so slow you can literally sidestep it, so its kinda bad. > the only class I know that has good burst clear to contest this type of build is warrior due to shake it off and low CD mass cleanse healing skill, but warrior is in a bad spot and to top it off they cant reach thief anyways. Engineer has no issue, Firebrand trivialises conditions, Necro eats them for breakfast (figuratively and literally), condi rev can do a switcheroo *and* has endless supply of resistance, and survival Ranger should have an easy time as well. Really the only 2 classes that struggle with it are Mesmer (as far as I know) and thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"cptaylor.2670" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > > > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > > > > > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. > > > > > > > > > > people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing > > > > > > > > ^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief. > > > > > > > > Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all. > > > > > > > > The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game. > > > > > > > > No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur. > > > > > > > > > Couldn’t the same be said about a ton of other builds though? Is the problem that it’s efficient against too many builds? At most I would say leave the damage the same and remove some of the cover conditions so it’s easier to get the poison. But the main burst comes from the initial attack with venom utility applied. > > > > > > And if they’re running thieves guild with poison share, then yes, there’s little you can do other than cleave they thieves guild down or try to kite. But thieves guild even on a power build is pretty strong. > > > > > > To be honest though, you can build a chrono to play pretty similarly. > > > > > > This build is kind of necessary in this meta though as a thief to be able to be efficient against bunkers. And in high level gameplay I doubt this build is that much of an issue. It’s still heavily dependent on having a good team and if you’re running core you’re sacrificing mobility. > > > > > > > > > > there is couple of things wrong with the build. > > 1 it can duel people as the most mobile build in the game bar other thief. > > 2 it can 100%-0% people instantly from stealth unless they have cleanse that can bypass their cover condis, and the slower you are to cleanse the more cover you have to go through. > > 3 poison share is whacky with AI, giving 18 stacks of poison to AI that persists for 30s is stupid level of area denial. I honestly dont even think thief would use the poison if the AI wouldnt be so broken with it. > > 4 It makes every build without insta burst condi clear unplayable, its not like condi mes where you can avoid their burst due to torch 4 delay or keeping distance from clones to not get mass F2 shattered, you give ground but you are safe. No thief gains 15s stealth and at any moment he can jump on you from 1200 range and apply this level of damage. > > 5 all the while it can 1v1, chase people down and bully specific builds it still is very good +1 build, perma poison reduces healing, landing steal deals massive damage and as for utility they can spam the immob to shut down escape, all the while applying some damage, and even if you have good cleanseing, constant immob spam will force it out of you unless you have some VERY specific way of escaping. > > the only class I know that has good burst clear to contest this type of build is warrior due to shake it off and low CD mass cleanse healing skill, but warrior is in a bad spot and to top it off they cant reach thief anyways. > > 1) Ok so it can duel. That isn’t really a reason to nerf it. Plenty of these flavor of the month thieves are not winning those duels, however. > > 2) The cover condi isn’t particularly long duration. Mass cleanse of 4-5 will probably get rid of most of it. > > 3) Totally agree here. I’ve said for years that Spider Venom sharing is hard to balance. Six stacks is a lot but manageable. 18-30 stacks with a few human allies, or paired with a Mesmer + clones, and suddenly you are insanely powerful in spike damage. So yeah, the Thieves Guild version is actually much weaker than duo’ed with a condi Mesmer who coordinates with the venom share. A minion necro can also be a good teammate for this kind of gameplay. > > 4) I’d disagree about the need to burst cleanse yourself in all cases. There are several builds that draw condi onto themselves and then mass cleanse. Team play, generally, is the solution to a build that shines most when sharing venoms to its own team. Solo 1v1, you should have enough cleanse to handle the burst of condi or something to cleave down the Thieves Guild (part of the problem here is power might have been nerfed a little too much and now Thieves Guild just has a lot of HP, maybe too much). > > 5) Steal actually applies that poison, when traited, over a long period. The tick damage isn’t that much. The immobilize spam is on a super slow projectile that can be strafed rather easily. Don’t run in a straight line and you won’t get hit over 500 range. > > 6) Good warriors are actually best able to gap close then stun. The key is baiting the Shadowstep and then kiting in the opposite direction. They will just Shadow Return if you chase them at that point. They will probably go the full 1200 with Shadowstep so moving in the opposite direction puts you out of range of Steal. If they chase you then they will have lost two stun breaks and a huge part of their in combat mobility. Not only warrior can take advantage of that btw, Ranger variants with GS can use the mobility and blocking to gap close when it makes sense and put lots of pressure on the thief. > > Bonus: if they tried to gank you after stealthing for a long duration they probably won’t have any stealth available to escape with if they aren’t able to pull off the kill. > ~ Just quoting this whole thing to get everyone's name in here for mention. Ok so, going more into detail about my previous comment: 1. It has way too much stealth. The frequency of stealth application and the uptime of those stealths is way too much. It allows this build to appear, land a huge burst and immediately vanish/teleport play away, rinse/repeat do the same thing again. **Builds that do not have reveal or teleport or even both, have little to no opening at all to even land damage on the Thief.** 2. You can't effectively use LOS against P/D in the same way you could a DE or Ranger Longbow. This is because the P/D Thief is not only stealthing constantly to confuse you as to where the hell it is actually at, but it is also using teleport spam play to be able to get around the LOS easily, even when you are LOSing. **So this build has some mechanics in play that allow it to get around a fundamentally important technique that builds require to effectively counter play ranged. So here, unless a build has A LOT of similar disengage mobility like ground target teleports or stealthing or mobility skills to stay moving, it becomes a sitting duck that is going to lose in time to the P/D, no question about it.** Of course reflects and other defensive utilities matter, but unless a build is essentially maximized around these sorts of things, the P/D is currently pumping out way too much damage too frequently for even bunkers to sustain. 3. And then finally, the damage burst output is too much for how frequent it is. I mean seriously, this build is pumping out a ridiculous amount of actual DPS. The hilarious thing is that we aren't talking just "burst" here. No, this build has a rather extreme amount of sustained damage output. So yeah, going back into what I was saying in the original comment. There simply are not enough classes/builds in play right now that can meet the current patching of P/D on an even level field, to justify how powerful that patching currently is. A super easy to understand analogy for what P/D feels like in matches right now: RED Team: * It has a P/D on it who is a "Rock" BLUE Team: * Scissors * Scissors * Scissors * Rock * Paper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 @"UNOwen.7132" I played condi thief I played condi mesmer I play power mirage. As power mirage I can go about even with condi mirages with equal skill level, I lack condi clears to deal with them but they lack ways to survive my burst in return, both our bursts are telegraphed so the fight is about even. Against cthief you die from stealth with full hp, gg wp thief wins. Play power mirage and you will see that there is a BIG difference between cthief and cmirage, and most builds that suffert to condi will see similar difference. EDIT weakness as cover condi, you can also spec for vulnerability, and first shots will apply bleed. 3 cleanses do nothing, 4 clear torment so about 1/4 of the damage, and 5 will clear confusion or poison, I dont know what would go first. depending on matchup cthief should change build/burst rotation so thatcleansing is hard/impossible. for example combo against cmirage with EM will be different then against cmes without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" > I played condi thief > I played condi mesmer > I play power mirage. > As power mirage I can go about even with condi mirages with equal skill level, I lack condi clears to deal with them but they lack ways to survive my burst in return, both our bursts are telegraphed so the fight is about even. > Against cthief you die from stealth with full hp, gg wp thief wins. Play power mirage and you will see that there is a BIG difference between cthief and cmirage, and most builds that suffert to condi will see similar difference. I have played builds that suffer to condi. A lot of them, actually.The "difference" I saw is that if I LoS the thief and dont use skills while the confusion is ticking, I can survive, and their stuff afterwards is just interruptible and stoppable. Not that you get the opportunity very often. Against Condi Mirage, I felt *more* helpless. Their stuff, thanks to Mirage Cloak, isnt interruptible, and I cant get anywhere close to the 100% evasion/block/invuln uptime needed to avoid all their condi applications. The only way to beat them is to either kill them first (which is less easy than doing the same for thieves due to their higher healthpool), or run away alltogether. > > EDIT > weakness as cover condi, you can also spec for vulnerability, and first shots will apply bleed. 3 cleanses do nothing, 4 clear torment so about 1/4 of the damage, and 5 will clear confusion or poison, I dont know what would go first. > depending on matchup cthief should change build/burst rotation so thatcleansing is hard/impossible. > for example combo against cmirage with EM will be different then against cmes without it. The shots are not part of the instant combo. The vulnerability one isnt used. You get 3 conditions. Weakness. Poison. Confusion. 3 cleanses gets rid of all of them. If they used shadowstrike, you have 4, but confusion still goes first. And thats the thing, Cthief doesnt do it because cleansing is *never* hard or impossible. Thats why the build was a meme for most of this games history, and why it was a meme until people started dropping cleanses again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernRedStar.3054 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"cptaylor.2670" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > > > > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > > > > > > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. > > > > > > > > > > > > people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing > > > > > > > > > > ^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief. > > > > > > > > > > Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all. > > > > > > > > > > The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game. > > > > > > > > > > No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > Couldn’t the same be said about a ton of other builds though? Is the problem that it’s efficient against too many builds? At most I would say leave the damage the same and remove some of the cover conditions so it’s easier to get the poison. But the main burst comes from the initial attack with venom utility applied. > > > > > > > > And if they’re running thieves guild with poison share, then yes, there’s little you can do other than cleave they thieves guild down or try to kite. But thieves guild even on a power build is pretty strong. > > > > > > > > To be honest though, you can build a chrono to play pretty similarly. > > > > > > > > This build is kind of necessary in this meta though as a thief to be able to be efficient against bunkers. And in high level gameplay I doubt this build is that much of an issue. It’s still heavily dependent on having a good team and if you’re running core you’re sacrificing mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is couple of things wrong with the build. > > > 1 it can duel people as the most mobile build in the game bar other thief. > > > 2 it can 100%-0% people instantly from stealth unless they have cleanse that can bypass their cover condis, and the slower you are to cleanse the more cover you have to go through. > > > 3 poison share is whacky with AI, giving 18 stacks of poison to AI that persists for 30s is stupid level of area denial. I honestly dont even think thief would use the poison if the AI wouldnt be so broken with it. > > > 4 It makes every build without insta burst condi clear unplayable, its not like condi mes where you can avoid their burst due to torch 4 delay or keeping distance from clones to not get mass F2 shattered, you give ground but you are safe. No thief gains 15s stealth and at any moment he can jump on you from 1200 range and apply this level of damage. > > > 5 all the while it can 1v1, chase people down and bully specific builds it still is very good +1 build, perma poison reduces healing, landing steal deals massive damage and as for utility they can spam the immob to shut down escape, all the while applying some damage, and even if you have good cleanseing, constant immob spam will force it out of you unless you have some VERY specific way of escaping. > > > the only class I know that has good burst clear to contest this type of build is warrior due to shake it off and low CD mass cleanse healing skill, but warrior is in a bad spot and to top it off they cant reach thief anyways. > > > > 1) Ok so it can duel. That isn’t really a reason to nerf it. Plenty of these flavor of the month thieves are not winning those duels, however. > > > > 2) The cover condi isn’t particularly long duration. Mass cleanse of 4-5 will probably get rid of most of it. > > > > 3) Totally agree here. I’ve said for years that Spider Venom sharing is hard to balance. Six stacks is a lot but manageable. 18-30 stacks with a few human allies, or paired with a Mesmer + clones, and suddenly you are insanely powerful in spike damage. So yeah, the Thieves Guild version is actually much weaker than duo’ed with a condi Mesmer who coordinates with the venom share. A minion necro can also be a good teammate for this kind of gameplay. > > > > 4) I’d disagree about the need to burst cleanse yourself in all cases. There are several builds that draw condi onto themselves and then mass cleanse. Team play, generally, is the solution to a build that shines most when sharing venoms to its own team. Solo 1v1, you should have enough cleanse to handle the burst of condi or something to cleave down the Thieves Guild (part of the problem here is power might have been nerfed a little too much and now Thieves Guild just has a lot of HP, maybe too much). > > > > 5) Steal actually applies that poison, when traited, over a long period. The tick damage isn’t that much. The immobilize spam is on a super slow projectile that can be strafed rather easily. Don’t run in a straight line and you won’t get hit over 500 range. > > > > 6) Good warriors are actually best able to gap close then stun. The key is baiting the Shadowstep and then kiting in the opposite direction. They will just Shadow Return if you chase them at that point. They will probably go the full 1200 with Shadowstep so moving in the opposite direction puts you out of range of Steal. If they chase you then they will have lost two stun breaks and a huge part of their in combat mobility. Not only warrior can take advantage of that btw, Ranger variants with GS can use the mobility and blocking to gap close when it makes sense and put lots of pressure on the thief. > > > > Bonus: if they tried to gank you after stealthing for a long duration they probably won’t have any stealth available to escape with if they aren’t able to pull off the kill. > > > > ~ Just quoting this whole thing to get everyone's name in here for mention. > > Ok so, going more into detail about my previous comment: > > 1. It has way too much stealth. The frequency of stealth application and the uptime of those stealths is way too much. It allows this build to appear, land a huge burst and immediately vanish/teleport play away, rinse/repeat do the same thing again. **Builds that do not have reveal or teleport or even both, have little to no opening at all to even land damage on the Thief.** > 2. You can't effectively use LOS against P/D in the same way you could a DE or Ranger Longbow. This is because the P/D Thief is not only stealthing constantly to confuse you as to where the hell it is actually at, but it is also using teleport spam play to be able to get around the LOS easily, even when you are LOSing. **So this build has some mechanics in play that allow it to get around a fundamentally important technique that builds require to effectively counter play ranged. So here, unless a build has A LOT of similar disengage mobility like ground target teleports or stealthing or mobility skills to stay moving, it becomes a sitting duck that is going to lose in time to the P/D, no question about it.** Of course reflects and other defensive utilities matter, but unless a build is essentially maximized around these sorts of things, the P/D is currently pumping out way too much damage too frequently for even bunkers to sustain. > 3. And then finally, the damage burst output is too much for how frequent it is. I mean seriously, this build is pumping out a ridiculous amount of actual DPS. The hilarious thing is that we aren't talking just "burst" here. No, this build has a rather extreme amount of sustained damage output. > > So yeah, going back into what I was saying in the original comment. There simply are not enough classes/builds in play right now that can meet the current patching of P/D on an even level field, to justify how powerful that patching currently is. > > A super easy to understand analogy for what P/D feels like in matches right now: > > RED Team: > * It has a P/D on it who is a "Rock" > > BLUE Team: > * Scissors > * Scissors > * Scissors > * Rock > * Paper I mean, this is pretty self-explanatory to anyone who's played with and/or against pistol thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"cptaylor.2670" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > > > > > > @"Poledra Val.1490" said: > > > > > > > > Some intresting reading in this thread, bottom line is its still one if not the most broken build in pvp at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's hella boring and monotone to play with and against. I don't understand how anyone is defending this build. > > > > > > > > > > > > people that got hardcarried by it, its hard to find a build that 1shots people with 2 abilities from stealth, it nullifies many build from playability just by existing > > > > > > > > > > ^ This is the main problem with the P/D Condi Thief. > > > > > > > > > > Some builds can counter it. But other builds get countered so hard by it, that their class doesn't possess the mechanics required to feasibly deal with the build at all. > > > > > > > > > > The problem occurs when the Thief is smart enough to avoid anything that may threaten him and only go at things that very seriously have 0% chance of dealing with his build. When that happens, it starts breaking the game. > > > > > > > > > > No class/build should ever have any arrangement of selections whatsoever that allow the abovementioned effect to occur. > > > > > > > > > > > > Couldn’t the same be said about a ton of other builds though? Is the problem that it’s efficient against too many builds? At most I would say leave the damage the same and remove some of the cover conditions so it’s easier to get the poison. But the main burst comes from the initial attack with venom utility applied. > > > > > > > > And if they’re running thieves guild with poison share, then yes, there’s little you can do other than cleave they thieves guild down or try to kite. But thieves guild even on a power build is pretty strong. > > > > > > > > To be honest though, you can build a chrono to play pretty similarly. > > > > > > > > This build is kind of necessary in this meta though as a thief to be able to be efficient against bunkers. And in high level gameplay I doubt this build is that much of an issue. It’s still heavily dependent on having a good team and if you’re running core you’re sacrificing mobility. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > there is couple of things wrong with the build. > > > 1 it can duel people as the most mobile build in the game bar other thief. > > > 2 it can 100%-0% people instantly from stealth unless they have cleanse that can bypass their cover condis, and the slower you are to cleanse the more cover you have to go through. > > > 3 poison share is whacky with AI, giving 18 stacks of poison to AI that persists for 30s is stupid level of area denial. I honestly dont even think thief would use the poison if the AI wouldnt be so broken with it. > > > 4 It makes every build without insta burst condi clear unplayable, its not like condi mes where you can avoid their burst due to torch 4 delay or keeping distance from clones to not get mass F2 shattered, you give ground but you are safe. No thief gains 15s stealth and at any moment he can jump on you from 1200 range and apply this level of damage. > > > 5 all the while it can 1v1, chase people down and bully specific builds it still is very good +1 build, perma poison reduces healing, landing steal deals massive damage and as for utility they can spam the immob to shut down escape, all the while applying some damage, and even if you have good cleanseing, constant immob spam will force it out of you unless you have some VERY specific way of escaping. > > > the only class I know that has good burst clear to contest this type of build is warrior due to shake it off and low CD mass cleanse healing skill, but warrior is in a bad spot and to top it off they cant reach thief anyways. > > > > 1) Ok so it can duel. That isn’t really a reason to nerf it. Plenty of these flavor of the month thieves are not winning those duels, however. > > > > 2) The cover condi isn’t particularly long duration. Mass cleanse of 4-5 will probably get rid of most of it. > > > > 3) Totally agree here. I’ve said for years that Spider Venom sharing is hard to balance. Six stacks is a lot but manageable. 18-30 stacks with a few human allies, or paired with a Mesmer + clones, and suddenly you are insanely powerful in spike damage. So yeah, the Thieves Guild version is actually much weaker than duo’ed with a condi Mesmer who coordinates with the venom share. A minion necro can also be a good teammate for this kind of gameplay. > > > > 4) I’d disagree about the need to burst cleanse yourself in all cases. There are several builds that draw condi onto themselves and then mass cleanse. Team play, generally, is the solution to a build that shines most when sharing venoms to its own team. Solo 1v1, you should have enough cleanse to handle the burst of condi or something to cleave down the Thieves Guild (part of the problem here is power might have been nerfed a little too much and now Thieves Guild just has a lot of HP, maybe too much). > > > > 5) Steal actually applies that poison, when traited, over a long period. The tick damage isn’t that much. The immobilize spam is on a super slow projectile that can be strafed rather easily. Don’t run in a straight line and you won’t get hit over 500 range. > > > > 6) Good warriors are actually best able to gap close then stun. The key is baiting the Shadowstep and then kiting in the opposite direction. They will just Shadow Return if you chase them at that point. They will probably go the full 1200 with Shadowstep so moving in the opposite direction puts you out of range of Steal. If they chase you then they will have lost two stun breaks and a huge part of their in combat mobility. Not only warrior can take advantage of that btw, Ranger variants with GS can use the mobility and blocking to gap close when it makes sense and put lots of pressure on the thief. > > > > Bonus: if they tried to gank you after stealthing for a long duration they probably won’t have any stealth available to escape with if they aren’t able to pull off the kill. > > > > ~ Just quoting this whole thing to get everyone's name in here for mention. > > Ok so, going more into detail about my previous comment: > > 1. It has way too much stealth. The frequency of stealth application and the uptime of those stealths is way too much. It allows this build to appear, land a huge burst and immediately vanish/teleport play away, rinse/repeat do the same thing again. **Builds that do not have reveal or teleport or even both, have little to no opening at all to even land damage on the Thief.** Yeah, except it cant. Its stealth applications are actually *extremely* limited. It has 3. Hide in Shadows. 1 second cast time, easily stopped. Shadows Refuge. Requires hte thief to stay in it for the entire duration. Easily AoE bombed. And Cloak and Dagger. Requires melee range, easily visible animation, extremely initiative inefficient. You can just stop him from hitting you and he wastes 6 initiative that he couldve dumped into repeater. And even *if* he stealths up, he is in melee range. You can just cleave him down and he cant fight back. As a result, there is *no* build that has few or no openings to land damage on the thief. Every build can easily land damage on the thief. Until he runs away. > 2. You can't effectively use LOS against P/D in the same way you could a DE or Ranger Longbow. This is because the P/D Thief is not only stealthing constantly to confuse you as to where the hell it is actually at, but it is also using teleport spam play to be able to get around the LOS easily, even when you are LOSing. **So this build has some mechanics in play that allow it to get around a fundamentally important technique that builds require to effectively counter play ranged. So here, unless a build has A LOT of similar disengage mobility like ground target teleports or stealthing or mobility skills to stay moving, it becomes a sitting duck that is going to lose in time to the P/D, no question about it.** Of course reflects and other defensive utilities matter, but unless a build is essentially maximized around these sorts of things, the P/D is currently pumping out way too much damage too frequently for even bunkers to sustain. As stated above, the thief has no method through which he can use stealth to confuse you where he is at. He wont even be using stealth, other than to immediately sneak attack. The build also has no "teleport spam" that allows to get around LoS. While in the pistol form, the only way it can teleport is if it goes up close and uses shadowstrike. However, that only teleports them directly backwards. If you LoS them, they stay LoSd. > 3. And then finally, the damage burst output is too much for how frequent it is. I mean seriously, this build is pumping out a ridiculous amount of actual DPS. The hilarious thing is that we aren't talking just "burst" here. No, this build has a rather extreme amount of sustained damage output. > Yeah thats condi builds for you. If you cant cleanse, their DPS and burst is absurd. But you can. So its not. > So yeah, going back into what I was saying in the original comment. There simply are not enough classes/builds in play right now that can meet the current patching of P/D on an even level field, to justify how powerful that patching currently is. > Almost all of them can. Thief ironically is one of the only 2 classes that should have problems against D/P even if built against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernRedStar.3054 Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 > Requires melee range, easily visible animation, I thought anyone half-decent is able to cover up their animations, either via terrain or with canceling. Also, a full-range Steal is more than enough to land Cloak and Dagger consistently. If there's a ranger with a pet or a mesmer with a clone, you can use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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