UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"Pati.2438" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" The reason why conditions shouldn't burst is simply cause of the most condition Build could allready kill ya slowly AND burst you.... so you get damage over time and the same amount of burst damage of Power Builds. > > > > > > > Power builds do the same thing unless you're suggesting power damage only comes in bursts and resets. It doesnt on case your wondering. Even power burst builds have ways to applying sustained pressure. I don't really understand this as a point. > > > > > > > Not really, power burst builds, like power herald, are quite lacking in the sustained damage department. They *function*, but they function poorly. > > > > > > What does this mean exactly? Here is the answer: > > > > > > > > Power Builds: have to deal with blindness, with thoughness, with weakness, with Protection, with Aegis, with Blocks, and need to be played complete glassy > > > > Condition Builds: Have to deal with condition cleans and Resistance only (sure if they would be like ONLY bursty like Power Builds they would to have to deal with Aegis, Blocks, Blinds too ... but exactly they aren't only Bursty they are damage over time and Bursty) they do damage over time and the same amount of Burst damage as Power builds plus are played defence like. > > > > > > > > > > Why do so many people suggest that condi builds don't have to deal with blind, aegis, blocks or evasion. There's literally no difference to avoiding burst combos between the two damage types..conditions don't just appear on you you have to be hit. > > > > > > > There are *big* differences between avoiding the 2 damage types. In case of power, we are talking about things like shackling wave, like Deathstrike, like Maul or worldly impact, so on and so forth. Clearly telegraphed skills with a cast time you can react to, and stop. With condi, were talking things like steal + deathstrike (instant), judges intervention (instant), Jaunt and Cry of Frustration (instant and potentially instant), Embrace (constant tick, also instant), as well as every single on-X trait that turns any attack, no matter how telegraphed (or not), into a burst skill on par with the easily avoidable skills like Shackling Wave. If Condis *did* work like power did, itd be a different story, but they would be weak at that point. Thats why they dont. > > > > Stop generalising while referencing the problem classes or traits. That's part of my entire point. Conditions as a whole aren't a problem. This is true for *every* condi build. Conditions as a whole, or perhaps the skills that apply them, *are* the problem. You basically need to rework everything that applies conditions if you want to fix this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 I am tired of hearing the lie that condi skills are instant. first most of them have a cast time and the ones that don't are very limited. and power got instant cast skills too. compare mantras of mes and guard. mes has ranged instant daze/dmg while guard has instant heal/burn/etc. now the fact that it is instant is set off by the fact that guard has to melee in order to apply the condis by it and you can still evade it. and for aoes you just need to stay out of them to not get another proc of condis. this is basic stuff. you can counter condis in way more ways than power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > I am tired of hearing the lie that condi skills are instant. first most of them have a cast time and the ones that don't are very limited. and power got instant cast skills too. compare mantras of mes and guard. mes has ranged instant daze/dmg while guard has instant heal/burn/etc. now the fact that it is instant is set off by the fact that guard has to melee in order to apply the condis by it and you can still evade it. and for aoes you just need to stay out of them to not get another proc of condis. this is basic stuff. you can counter condis in way more ways than power. Plenty of them dont. Steal (which can be combined with shadowstrike), Jaunt and Cry of Frustration, Judges intervention, the list goes on and on. The others are effects that trigger on *any* attack, or any attack of a special kind. Which means you need to dodge literally everything, or you get a lethal condi burst anyway. Which is a stark contrast to power where the autoattack wont be hitting you for 10k damage. And several pulsing fields move, plus with the node aspect of Conquest, its not like you can just "stay out of the AoE" and let them get the decap or fullcap for free. You can counter condis in more ways because cleanses exist. You however cant avoid condi damage even remotely as well. Thats actually part of why cleanses exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 the reason condi is all around you is because condis do hardly anything on their own. you need a high number of stacks to make a difference. meanwhile bursts might have an easier time when carrying enough cleanses. skills like cry of frustration got their cast pretty much restricted to when clones reach you. so if you are farther away their explosion will be delayed. and no you don't have to dodge everything. what I do is get hit by normal condi attacks and cleanse once I see enemy is doing its condi bomb. I assume burn guard and rev cbuilds are the problem for most players. Haven't really seen other strong cbuilds post patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"Pati.2438" said: > > > > > @Kulvar.1238 Nah i don,t like them in any team .... they just like don't need mutch skill but could ezy carry teams hard. > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" I exactly don't want them to dead nerf conditions ..... all i want is that they bring them finaly in good balance. Conditions shouldn't work as burst damage .... they should work as damage over time and in its current state they made a higher burst damage than power builds while also doing damage over time. > > > > > > > > Why should you not die quickly if you fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills? Damage type should not matter on this regard. > > > > > > > > Do some combos or skills need toning down? Probably. But every time I read "condi should not burst" it always sounds like "I don't want to be punished for not avoiding skills". > > > > > > Because the thing with conditions, and condition burst is that you didnt "fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills". What you "failed to avoid" (which is a misnomer as we see in a bit) are instant cast skills, and on-X effects that, in order to prevent them, would require you to have 100% evade/block/invuln uptime. This isnt like power where the hardhitting skills are clearly telegraphed and easily avoidable. In case of condi, they arent telegraphed, and quite often arent even avoidable. > > > > Stop generalising. > > Try and find a single condi build that doesnt rely on instant cast skills, on-X effects or pulsing fields for its damage. Spoiler: Doesnt exist. Im not "generalising", because what Im saying applies to *every single condi build in existence*. You're listing half the ways of applying damage and saying find a build that doesn't do it. Power builds have on X effects through power specific damage modifiers, literally on damage do more damage. They also use a lot of pulsing fields in their builds. Both damage types have these. Instant effects are an issue but again when people were dying to core shatter mesmer there were specific threads around power lock and power spike, not threads on all power damage is OP. Steal is also notably one of the most loaded single skills in the game when you apply traits to it. JI doesn't even do that much damage on its own, you can get similar amount of damage from some instant power utilities. If what you say is true and all condi builds have all these tools and rely on them they would all be equally over powered...but they aren't. Don't really see complaints about fire weaver or scourge anymore after they got nerfed. Where are my condi warrior and engi? Your listing the problem issues of the problem builds and using that as a general statement against all condition damage. Every time this thread comes up it's always "Condi is op. Why? Because [insert meta build here]." Either directly said or via specific or non specific answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > the reason condi is all around you is because condis do hardly anything on their own. you need a high number of stacks to make a difference. meanwhile bursts might have an easier time when carrying enough cleanses. skills like cry of frustration got their cast pretty much restricted to when clones reach you. so if you are farther away their explosion will be delayed. and no you don't have to dodge everything. what I do is get hit by normal condi attacks and cleanse once I see enemy is doing its condi bomb. I assume burn guard and rev cbuilds are the problem for most players. Haven't really seen other strong cbuilds post patch. Nah, condi is like power, just without the clear distinction between less telegraphed, low-damage attacks, and more telegraphed high damage attacks. Mind you, condis arent broken because cleanses exist, but you do need to have burst cleanses available against condi builds at all time to have any chance at all. You shatter in point blanc range anyway. And yes, you can just cleanse it, but that is the issue. If you dont have cleanses, youre screwed. If you do, theyre screwed. Its binary and badly designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"Pati.2438" said: > > > > > > @Kulvar.1238 Nah i don,t like them in any team .... they just like don't need mutch skill but could ezy carry teams hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" I exactly don't want them to dead nerf conditions ..... all i want is that they bring them finaly in good balance. Conditions shouldn't work as burst damage .... they should work as damage over time and in its current state they made a higher burst damage than power builds while also doing damage over time. > > > > > > > > > > Why should you not die quickly if you fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills? Damage type should not matter on this regard. > > > > > > > > > > Do some combos or skills need toning down? Probably. But every time I read "condi should not burst" it always sounds like "I don't want to be punished for not avoiding skills". > > > > > > > > Because the thing with conditions, and condition burst is that you didnt "fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills". What you "failed to avoid" (which is a misnomer as we see in a bit) are instant cast skills, and on-X effects that, in order to prevent them, would require you to have 100% evade/block/invuln uptime. This isnt like power where the hardhitting skills are clearly telegraphed and easily avoidable. In case of condi, they arent telegraphed, and quite often arent even avoidable. > > > > > > Stop generalising. > > > > Try and find a single condi build that doesnt rely on instant cast skills, on-X effects or pulsing fields for its damage. Spoiler: Doesnt exist. Im not "generalising", because what Im saying applies to *every single condi build in existence*. > > You're listing half the ways of applying damage and saying find a build that doesn't do it. > Except not really? See thats the thing, power builds have a large variety of ways they deal damage. Those 3 are barely used by power. On-X damage is usually stuff like leeching venoms, instant cast skills are at most things like Mantra or Mug, and pulsing fields ... honestly I cant even think of a power build that uses pulsing damage fields. > Power builds have on X effects through power specific damage modifiers, literally on damage do more damage. They also use a lot of pulsing fields in their builds. Both damage types have these. Instant effects are an issue but again when people were dying to core shatter mesmer there were specific threads around power lock and power spike, not threads on all power damage is OP. Steal is also notably one of the most loaded single skills in the game when you apply traits to it. JI doesn't even do that much damage on its own, you can get similar amount of damage from some instant power utilities. > False equivalence. The damage modifiers are equivalent to the damage modifiers condi also have. However, were talking things like "burn on every third attack that hits. Poison enemies on your next 7 attacks". Things like that. The only equivalent to condi on-X traits is something like Vampiric Aura. But I assume I dont really have to explain why vampiric aura is not even remotely close in terms of power to any of the condi on-x effects. > If what you say is true and all condi builds have all these tools and rely on them they would all be equally over powered...but they aren't. Don't really see complaints about fire weaver or scourge anymore after they got nerfed. Where are my condi warrior and engi? > Equally overpowered, no. Its not even a matter of overpowered. Its a matter of bad design. All condi builds are badly designed, all rely on the same design mistakes, all are binary. Condi needs a rework from the ground up. > Your listing the problem issues of the problem builds and using that as a general statement against all condition damage. > All condi builds have the exact same design issues. The only difference is power, but power is irrelevant. Its the design thats a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > @"Pati.2438" said: > > > > > > > @Kulvar.1238 Nah i don,t like them in any team .... they just like don't need mutch skill but could ezy carry teams hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" I exactly don't want them to dead nerf conditions ..... all i want is that they bring them finaly in good balance. Conditions shouldn't work as burst damage .... they should work as damage over time and in its current state they made a higher burst damage than power builds while also doing damage over time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should you not die quickly if you fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills? Damage type should not matter on this regard. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do some combos or skills need toning down? Probably. But every time I read "condi should not burst" it always sounds like "I don't want to be punished for not avoiding skills". > > > > > > > > > > Because the thing with conditions, and condition burst is that you didnt "fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills". What you "failed to avoid" (which is a misnomer as we see in a bit) are instant cast skills, and on-X effects that, in order to prevent them, would require you to have 100% evade/block/invuln uptime. This isnt like power where the hardhitting skills are clearly telegraphed and easily avoidable. In case of condi, they arent telegraphed, and quite often arent even avoidable. > > > > > > > > Stop generalising. > > > > > > Try and find a single condi build that doesnt rely on instant cast skills, on-X effects or pulsing fields for its damage. Spoiler: Doesnt exist. Im not "generalising", because what Im saying applies to *every single condi build in existence*. > > > > You're listing half the ways of applying damage and saying find a build that doesn't do it. > > > > Except not really? See thats the thing, power builds have a large variety of ways they deal damage. So do condition builds >Those 3 are barely used by power. > honestly I cant even think of a power build that uses pulsing damage fields. > This isn't true. There are many. Just like Condi ; builds that use them come in and out of the meta / being strong all the time. > > Power builds have on X effects through power specific damage modifiers, literally on damage do more damage. They also use a lot of pulsing fields in their builds. Both damage types have these. Instant effects are an issue but again when people were dying to core shatter mesmer there were specific threads around power lock and power spike, not threads on all power damage is OP. Steal is also notably one of the most loaded single skills in the game when you apply traits to it. JI doesn't even do that much damage on its own, you can get similar amount of damage from some instant power utilities. > > > > False equivalence. The damage modifiers are equivalent to the damage modifiers condi also have. However, were talking things like "burn on every third attack that hits. Poison enemies on your next 7 attacks". Things like that. The only equivalent to condi on-X traits is something like Vampiric Aura. But I assume I dont really have to explain why vampiric aura is not even remotely close in terms of power to any of the condi on-x effects. > Look at the number of straight damage modifiers conditions have compared to power. Then look at the amount of extra proc power has compared to conditions. They are fairly equivalent and a lot of the time it is just "applies more damage". Your next X attacks do Y more damage/apply Z condi exist or for the next A seconds you do B more damage/ apply C condi. Again not massively different and exist on varying quantities between damage types and are often **build specific**. > > If what you say is true and all condi builds have all these tools and rely on them they would all be equally over powered...but they aren't. Don't really see complaints about fire weaver or scourge anymore after they got nerfed. Where are my condi warrior and engi? > > > > Equally overpowered, no. Its not even a matter of overpowered. Its a matter of bad design. All condi builds are badly designed, all rely on the same design mistakes, all are binary. Condi needs a rework from the ground up. > > > Your listing the problem issues of the problem builds and using that as a general statement against all condition damage. > > > > All condi builds have the exact same design issues. The only difference is power, but power is irrelevant. Its the design thats a problem. "I don't like it" doesn't mean that something is badly designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > @"Pati.2438" said: > > > > > > > > @Kulvar.1238 Nah i don,t like them in any team .... they just like don't need mutch skill but could ezy carry teams hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" I exactly don't want them to dead nerf conditions ..... all i want is that they bring them finaly in good balance. Conditions shouldn't work as burst damage .... they should work as damage over time and in its current state they made a higher burst damage than power builds while also doing damage over time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should you not die quickly if you fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills? Damage type should not matter on this regard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do some combos or skills need toning down? Probably. But every time I read "condi should not burst" it always sounds like "I don't want to be punished for not avoiding skills". > > > > > > > > > > > > Because the thing with conditions, and condition burst is that you didnt "fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills". What you "failed to avoid" (which is a misnomer as we see in a bit) are instant cast skills, and on-X effects that, in order to prevent them, would require you to have 100% evade/block/invuln uptime. This isnt like power where the hardhitting skills are clearly telegraphed and easily avoidable. In case of condi, they arent telegraphed, and quite often arent even avoidable. > > > > > > > > > > Stop generalising. > > > > > > > > Try and find a single condi build that doesnt rely on instant cast skills, on-X effects or pulsing fields for its damage. Spoiler: Doesnt exist. Im not "generalising", because what Im saying applies to *every single condi build in existence*. > > > > > > You're listing half the ways of applying damage and saying find a build that doesn't do it. > > > > > > > Except not really? See thats the thing, power builds have a large variety of ways they deal damage. > So do condition builds Not really. Its a small number of categories with a lot of overlap. > >Those 3 are barely used by power. > > honestly I cant even think of a power build that uses pulsing damage fields. > > > This isn't true. There are many. Just like Condi ; builds that use them come in and out of the meta / being strong all the time. > Such as? The only ones I could think of that even *have* a pulsing damage field are LB ranger and guardian. And the first one isnt that good for its damage, while the latter is used by a bunker build that poorly fits into the dichotomy anyway. > > > Power builds have on X effects through power specific damage modifiers, literally on damage do more damage. They also use a lot of pulsing fields in their builds. Both damage types have these. Instant effects are an issue but again when people were dying to core shatter mesmer there were specific threads around power lock and power spike, not threads on all power damage is OP. Steal is also notably one of the most loaded single skills in the game when you apply traits to it. JI doesn't even do that much damage on its own, you can get similar amount of damage from some instant power utilities. > > > > > > > False equivalence. The damage modifiers are equivalent to the damage modifiers condi also have. However, were talking things like "burn on every third attack that hits. Poison enemies on your next 7 attacks". Things like that. The only equivalent to condi on-X traits is something like Vampiric Aura. But I assume I dont really have to explain why vampiric aura is not even remotely close in terms of power to any of the condi on-x effects. > > > Look at the number of straight damage modifiers conditions have compared to power. Then look at the amount of extra proc power has compared to conditions. They are fairly equivalent and a lot of the time it is just "applies more damage". Your next X attacks do Y more damage/apply Z condi exist or for the next A seconds you do B more damage/ apply C condi. Again not massively different and exist on varying quantities between damage types and are often **build specific**. > The *number* of them doesnt matter. The point is that theyre not equivalent. Let me explain why. When you take a damage modifier, its damage is dependent on the attack. If you slap a 40% damage modifier on a 600 damage autoattack (and 40% is an absurd modifier), thats still only 240 damage. Slap 1 stack of poison for 3 seconds on it instead, and youre doing far more. Pretty big difference, isnt it? Thats the issue, after all. Power damage is dependent on how telegraphed the attack is. Condi is not. > > > If what you say is true and all condi builds have all these tools and rely on them they would all be equally over powered...but they aren't. Don't really see complaints about fire weaver or scourge anymore after they got nerfed. Where are my condi warrior and engi? > > > > > > > Equally overpowered, no. Its not even a matter of overpowered. Its a matter of bad design. All condi builds are badly designed, all rely on the same design mistakes, all are binary. Condi needs a rework from the ground up. > > > > > Your listing the problem issues of the problem builds and using that as a general statement against all condition damage. > > > > > > > All condi builds have the exact same design issues. The only difference is power, but power is irrelevant. Its the design thats a problem. > > "I don't like it" doesn't mean that something is badly designed. > Correct. "Its incredibly binary, leads to unengaging gameplay and has a severe chokehold on build diversity as a whole" however *does* mean its badly designed. And oh look, Condi fulfills all of those criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Pati.2438" said: > > > > > > > > > @Kulvar.1238 Nah i don,t like them in any team .... they just like don't need mutch skill but could ezy carry teams hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" I exactly don't want them to dead nerf conditions ..... all i want is that they bring them finaly in good balance. Conditions shouldn't work as burst damage .... they should work as damage over time and in its current state they made a higher burst damage than power builds while also doing damage over time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should you not die quickly if you fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills? Damage type should not matter on this regard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do some combos or skills need toning down? Probably. But every time I read "condi should not burst" it always sounds like "I don't want to be punished for not avoiding skills". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because the thing with conditions, and condition burst is that you didnt "fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills". What you "failed to avoid" (which is a misnomer as we see in a bit) are instant cast skills, and on-X effects that, in order to prevent them, would require you to have 100% evade/block/invuln uptime. This isnt like power where the hardhitting skills are clearly telegraphed and easily avoidable. In case of condi, they arent telegraphed, and quite often arent even avoidable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop generalising. > > > > > > > > > > Try and find a single condi build that doesnt rely on instant cast skills, on-X effects or pulsing fields for its damage. Spoiler: Doesnt exist. Im not "generalising", because what Im saying applies to *every single condi build in existence*. > > > > > > > > You're listing half the ways of applying damage and saying find a build that doesn't do it. > > > > > > > > > > Except not really? See thats the thing, power builds have a large variety of ways they deal damage. > > So do condition builds > > Not really. Its a small number of categories with a lot of overlap. > > > >Those 3 are barely used by power. > > > honestly I cant even think of a power build that uses pulsing damage fields. > > > > > This isn't true. There are many. Just like Condi ; builds that use them come in and out of the meta / being strong all the time. > > > > Such as? The only ones I could think of that even *have* a pulsing damage field are LB ranger and guardian. And the first one isnt that good for its damage, while the latter is used by a bunker build that poorly fits into the dichotomy anyway. > > > > > Power builds have on X effects through power specific damage modifiers, literally on damage do more damage. They also use a lot of pulsing fields in their builds. Both damage types have these. Instant effects are an issue but again when people were dying to core shatter mesmer there were specific threads around power lock and power spike, not threads on all power damage is OP. Steal is also notably one of the most loaded single skills in the game when you apply traits to it. JI doesn't even do that much damage on its own, you can get similar amount of damage from some instant power utilities. > > > > > > > > > > False equivalence. The damage modifiers are equivalent to the damage modifiers condi also have. However, were talking things like "burn on every third attack that hits. Poison enemies on your next 7 attacks". Things like that. The only equivalent to condi on-X traits is something like Vampiric Aura. But I assume I dont really have to explain why vampiric aura is not even remotely close in terms of power to any of the condi on-x effects. > > > > > Look at the number of straight damage modifiers conditions have compared to power. Then look at the amount of extra proc power has compared to conditions. They are fairly equivalent and a lot of the time it is just "applies more damage". Your next X attacks do Y more damage/apply Z condi exist or for the next A seconds you do B more damage/ apply C condi. Again not massively different and exist on varying quantities between damage types and are often **build specific**. > > > > The *number* of them doesnt matter. The point is that theyre not equivalent. Let me explain why. When you take a damage modifier, its damage is dependent on the attack. If you slap a 40% damage modifier on a 600 damage autoattack (and 40% is an absurd modifier), thats still only 240 damage. Slap 1 stack of poison for 3 seconds on it instead, and youre doing far more. Pretty big difference, isnt it? Thats the issue, after all. Power damage is dependent on how telegraphed the attack is. Condi is not. > > > > > If what you say is true and all condi builds have all these tools and rely on them they would all be equally over powered...but they aren't. Don't really see complaints about fire weaver or scourge anymore after they got nerfed. Where are my condi warrior and engi? > > > > > > > > > > Equally overpowered, no. Its not even a matter of overpowered. Its a matter of bad design. All condi builds are badly designed, all rely on the same design mistakes, all are binary. Condi needs a rework from the ground up. > > > > > > > Your listing the problem issues of the problem builds and using that as a general statement against all condition damage. > > > > > > > > > > All condi builds have the exact same design issues. The only difference is power, but power is irrelevant. Its the design thats a problem. > > > > "I don't like it" doesn't mean that something is badly designed. > > > > Correct. "Its incredibly binary, leads to unengaging gameplay and has a severe chokehold on build diversity as a whole" however *does* mean its badly designed. And oh look, Condi fulfills all of those criteria. I don't think it's worth continuing this. I'm going to agree to disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Pati.2438" said: > > > > > > > > > > @Kulvar.1238 Nah i don,t like them in any team .... they just like don't need mutch skill but could ezy carry teams hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" I exactly don't want them to dead nerf conditions ..... all i want is that they bring them finaly in good balance. Conditions shouldn't work as burst damage .... they should work as damage over time and in its current state they made a higher burst damage than power builds while also doing damage over time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should you not die quickly if you fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills? Damage type should not matter on this regard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do some combos or skills need toning down? Probably. But every time I read "condi should not burst" it always sounds like "I don't want to be punished for not avoiding skills". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because the thing with conditions, and condition burst is that you didnt "fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills". What you "failed to avoid" (which is a misnomer as we see in a bit) are instant cast skills, and on-X effects that, in order to prevent them, would require you to have 100% evade/block/invuln uptime. This isnt like power where the hardhitting skills are clearly telegraphed and easily avoidable. In case of condi, they arent telegraphed, and quite often arent even avoidable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop generalising. > > > > > > > > > > > > Try and find a single condi build that doesnt rely on instant cast skills, on-X effects or pulsing fields for its damage. Spoiler: Doesnt exist. Im not "generalising", because what Im saying applies to *every single condi build in existence*. > > > > > > > > > > You're listing half the ways of applying damage and saying find a build that doesn't do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except not really? See thats the thing, power builds have a large variety of ways they deal damage. > > > So do condition builds > > > > Not really. Its a small number of categories with a lot of overlap. > > > > > >Those 3 are barely used by power. > > > > honestly I cant even think of a power build that uses pulsing damage fields. > > > > > > > This isn't true. There are many. Just like Condi ; builds that use them come in and out of the meta / being strong all the time. > > > > > > > Such as? The only ones I could think of that even *have* a pulsing damage field are LB ranger and guardian. And the first one isnt that good for its damage, while the latter is used by a bunker build that poorly fits into the dichotomy anyway. > > > > > > > Power builds have on X effects through power specific damage modifiers, literally on damage do more damage. They also use a lot of pulsing fields in their builds. Both damage types have these. Instant effects are an issue but again when people were dying to core shatter mesmer there were specific threads around power lock and power spike, not threads on all power damage is OP. Steal is also notably one of the most loaded single skills in the game when you apply traits to it. JI doesn't even do that much damage on its own, you can get similar amount of damage from some instant power utilities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > False equivalence. The damage modifiers are equivalent to the damage modifiers condi also have. However, were talking things like "burn on every third attack that hits. Poison enemies on your next 7 attacks". Things like that. The only equivalent to condi on-X traits is something like Vampiric Aura. But I assume I dont really have to explain why vampiric aura is not even remotely close in terms of power to any of the condi on-x effects. > > > > > > > Look at the number of straight damage modifiers conditions have compared to power. Then look at the amount of extra proc power has compared to conditions. They are fairly equivalent and a lot of the time it is just "applies more damage". Your next X attacks do Y more damage/apply Z condi exist or for the next A seconds you do B more damage/ apply C condi. Again not massively different and exist on varying quantities between damage types and are often **build specific**. > > > > > > > The *number* of them doesnt matter. The point is that theyre not equivalent. Let me explain why. When you take a damage modifier, its damage is dependent on the attack. If you slap a 40% damage modifier on a 600 damage autoattack (and 40% is an absurd modifier), thats still only 240 damage. Slap 1 stack of poison for 3 seconds on it instead, and youre doing far more. Pretty big difference, isnt it? Thats the issue, after all. Power damage is dependent on how telegraphed the attack is. Condi is not. > > > > > > > If what you say is true and all condi builds have all these tools and rely on them they would all be equally over powered...but they aren't. Don't really see complaints about fire weaver or scourge anymore after they got nerfed. Where are my condi warrior and engi? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Equally overpowered, no. Its not even a matter of overpowered. Its a matter of bad design. All condi builds are badly designed, all rely on the same design mistakes, all are binary. Condi needs a rework from the ground up. > > > > > > > > > Your listing the problem issues of the problem builds and using that as a general statement against all condition damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > All condi builds have the exact same design issues. The only difference is power, but power is irrelevant. Its the design thats a problem. > > > > > > "I don't like it" doesn't mean that something is badly designed. > > > > > > > Correct. "Its incredibly binary, leads to unengaging gameplay and has a severe chokehold on build diversity as a whole" however *does* mean its badly designed. And oh look, Condi fulfills all of those criteria. > > I don't think it's worth continuing this. I'm going to agree to disagree with you. Do as you wish. Conditions ultimately need a rework. Something as simple as making cleanses only cleanse non-damaging conditions, and then rebalancing them around that, with lower damage, and an actual ratio of telegraph -> damage like power has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"Pati.2438" said: > > > > > > @Kulvar.1238 Nah i don,t like them in any team .... they just like don't need mutch skill but could ezy carry teams hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" I exactly don't want them to dead nerf conditions ..... all i want is that they bring them finaly in good balance. Conditions shouldn't work as burst damage .... they should work as damage over time and in its current state they made a higher burst damage than power builds while also doing damage over time. > > > > > > > > > > Why should you not die quickly if you fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills? Damage type should not matter on this regard. > > > > > > > > > > Do some combos or skills need toning down? Probably. But every time I read "condi should not burst" it always sounds like "I don't want to be punished for not avoiding skills". > > > > > > > > Because the thing with conditions, and condition burst is that you didnt "fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills". What you "failed to avoid" (which is a misnomer as we see in a bit) are instant cast skills, and on-X effects that, in order to prevent them, would require you to have 100% evade/block/invuln uptime. This isnt like power where the hardhitting skills are clearly telegraphed and easily avoidable. In case of condi, they arent telegraphed, and quite often arent even avoidable. > > > > > > Stop generalising. > > > > Try and find a single condi build that doesnt rely on instant cast skills, on-X effects or pulsing fields for its damage. Spoiler: Doesnt exist. Im not "generalising", because what Im saying applies to *every single condi build in existence*. > > You're listing half the ways of applying damage and saying find a build that doesn't do it. > > Power builds have on X effects through power specific damage modifiers, literally on damage do more damage. They also use a lot of pulsing fields in their builds. Both damage types have these. Instant effects are an issue but again when people were dying to core shatter mesmer there were specific threads around power lock and power spike, not threads on all power damage is OP. Steal is also notably one of the most loaded single skills in the game when you apply traits to it. JI doesn't even do that much damage on its own, you can get similar amount of damage from some instant power utilities. > > If what you say is true and all condi builds have all these tools and rely on them they would all be equally over powered...but they aren't. Don't really see complaints about fire weaver or scourge anymore after they got nerfed. Where are my condi warrior and engi? > > Your listing the problem issues of the problem builds and using that as a general statement against all condition damage. > > Every time this thread comes up it's always "Condi is op. Why? Because [insert meta build here]." Either directly said or via specific or non specific answers. Seriously? you gonna complain about scourge again? scourge condis got nerfed so hard they became power and right now they been relegated to being powe bombers a lot and support due to how hard they got nerfed. Is there no end to the Q_Q? when will you be happy? when guardians necros Cthiefs Cmirage what was it Cwarr(don't know if they use burns never played one) Condi rangers etc etc don't exist? how is this good for the game when removing variety simply will turn this game into a boring game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 @"UNOwen.7132" look at power rev, pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage burst damage? its there. it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > @"Pati.2438" said: > > > > > > > @Kulvar.1238 Nah i don,t like them in any team .... they just like don't need mutch skill but could ezy carry teams hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" I exactly don't want them to dead nerf conditions ..... all i want is that they bring them finaly in good balance. Conditions shouldn't work as burst damage .... they should work as damage over time and in its current state they made a higher burst damage than power builds while also doing damage over time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should you not die quickly if you fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills? Damage type should not matter on this regard. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do some combos or skills need toning down? Probably. But every time I read "condi should not burst" it always sounds like "I don't want to be punished for not avoiding skills". > > > > > > > > > > Because the thing with conditions, and condition burst is that you didnt "fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills". What you "failed to avoid" (which is a misnomer as we see in a bit) are instant cast skills, and on-X effects that, in order to prevent them, would require you to have 100% evade/block/invuln uptime. This isnt like power where the hardhitting skills are clearly telegraphed and easily avoidable. In case of condi, they arent telegraphed, and quite often arent even avoidable. > > > > > > > > Stop generalising. > > > > > > Try and find a single condi build that doesnt rely on instant cast skills, on-X effects or pulsing fields for its damage. Spoiler: Doesnt exist. Im not "generalising", because what Im saying applies to *every single condi build in existence*. > > > > You're listing half the ways of applying damage and saying find a build that doesn't do it. > > > > Power builds have on X effects through power specific damage modifiers, literally on damage do more damage. They also use a lot of pulsing fields in their builds. Both damage types have these. Instant effects are an issue but again when people were dying to core shatter mesmer there were specific threads around power lock and power spike, not threads on all power damage is OP. Steal is also notably one of the most loaded single skills in the game when you apply traits to it. JI doesn't even do that much damage on its own, you can get similar amount of damage from some instant power utilities. > > > > If what you say is true and all condi builds have all these tools and rely on them they would all be equally over powered...but they aren't. Don't really see complaints about fire weaver or scourge anymore after they got nerfed. Where are my condi warrior and engi? > > > > Your listing the problem issues of the problem builds and using that as a general statement against all condition damage. > > > > Every time this thread comes up it's always "Condi is op. Why? Because [insert meta build here]." Either directly said or via specific or non specific answers. > > Seriously? you gonna complain about scourge again? scourge condis got nerfed so hard they became power and right now they been relegated to being powe bombers a lot and support due to how hard they got nerfed. > > Is there no end to the Q_Q? when will you be happy? when guardians necros Cthiefs Cmirage what was it Cwarr(don't know if they use burns never played one) Condi rangers etc etc don't exist? how is this good for the game when removing variety simply will turn this game into a boring game? Did you actually read the post ? Or did you just see scourge in some text and assume is was asking for nerfs. Incase you missed it I will repeat it "you don't see any complaints about scourge after it got nerfed". My point was that builds themselves are the issue not conditions as a whole. Dial the emotion back and take things in just a moment.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" > look at power rev, > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > burst damage? its there. > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. Pulsing fields and multi-hit attacks are different things. Im not exactly including Rapid Fire here, after all. Though fair enough on the dragon blast, I had forgotten about it. Doesnt seem to be used much. Phase traversal is *far* from instant. It has a half second cast time *and* a travel time. So not sure what the idea was here. Enchanted daggers have limited use and get used up even on a failed attack. On-x effects in condi builds usually do not. And Power Revs sustained damage is not good. Its great at bursting, not so much afterwards. Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). It has no on-X traits that turn every single attack into a lethal burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > look at power rev, > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > burst damage? its there. > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > Pulsing fields and multi-hit attacks are different things. Im not exactly including Rapid Fire here, after all. Though fair enough on the dragon blast, I had forgotten about it. Doesnt seem to be used much. Phase traversal is *far* from instant. It has a half second cast time *and* a travel time. So not sure what the idea was here. Enchanted daggers have limited use and get used up even on a failed attack. On-x effects in condi builds usually do not. And Power Revs sustained damage is not good. Its great at bursting, not so much afterwards. > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). It has no on-X traits that turn every single attack into a lethal burst. corona burst, pulsing blind, holo pistols ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > look at power rev, > > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > > burst damage? its there. > > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > > > Pulsing fields and multi-hit attacks are different things. Im not exactly including Rapid Fire here, after all. Though fair enough on the dragon blast, I had forgotten about it. Doesnt seem to be used much. Phase traversal is *far* from instant. It has a half second cast time *and* a travel time. So not sure what the idea was here. Enchanted daggers have limited use and get used up even on a failed attack. On-x effects in condi builds usually do not. And Power Revs sustained damage is not good. Its great at bursting, not so much afterwards. > > > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). It has no on-X traits that turn every single attack into a lethal burst. > > corona burst, pulsing blind, holo pistols In order, not a pulsing field (just a multihit attack), doesnt pulse damage, not a pulsing field (just another multi-hit attack). Different things. > ofc power will seem "weaker" because you cant make the booboo go away after you it it, if holo cornoa+holo 4 you for 8k total its 8k you are not getting back, its not like burning that you can cleanse like it never happened And that is part of the problem. If Holo Corona Burst and Photon blitzes you for 8k, then you screwed up and got punished. But with conditions, if youre hit for 8k burning damage over 2 or 3 seconds, not only did you *not* screw up, chances are there was nothing you could do. But its fine because you have condition cleanse. Which youre forced to run or otherwise any condi build obliterates you. Its binary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > look at power rev, > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > burst damage? its there. > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). Laser disk, Blade Burst and Particle Accelerator. The multi hits have been listed, which you acknowledged, even though you said it doesn't have any. It does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > look at power rev, > > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > > burst damage? its there. > > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). > Laser disk, Blade Burst and Particle Accelerator. The multi hits have been listed, which you acknowledged, even though you said it doesn't have any. It does. > > > Of these only Laser Disc is a pulsing field. Its not used, however. Particle Accelerator straight up is just one single bolt. I also said no *pulsing damage fields*, not "no multi-hit attacks". Remember, the point was that there is much less you can do vs condi. With multi-hit attacks, they are fast, can be interrupted, or both. With a pulsing condi field, you have 2 options. Forfeit the point, or burn through active defenses to survive. You cant however stop the damage. Which is typically the case for condition damage. With power, you can stop it before it hits you. With condition usually only *after* it already hit you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > look at power rev, > > > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > > > burst damage? its there. > > > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > > > > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). > > Laser disk, Blade Burst and Particle Accelerator. The multi hits have been listed, which you acknowledged, even though you said it doesn't have any. It does. > > > > > > > > Of these only Laser Disc is a pulsing field. Its not used, however. Particle Accelerator straight up is just one single bolt. I also said no *pulsing damage fields*, not "no multi-hit attacks". Remember, the point was that there is much less you can do vs condi. With multi-hit attacks, they are fast, can be interrupted, or both. With a pulsing condi field, you have 2 options. Forfeit the point, or burn through active defenses to survive. You cant however stop the damage. Which is typically the case for condition damage. With power, you can stop it before it hits you. With condition usually only *after* it already hit you. I dont get it, the only difference between pulsing field and corona burst is that holo can move around with it to pressure you even more, what class do you even have in mind? the only insta bursts come from cthief, the closes to "insta" you can get is mesmer setting up big F2 shatter, they can put a threat of insta burst but the moment you destroy the clones its gone, its not out of stealth and the stealth is telegraphed, all the big condi is delayed ( torch 4 has 3s delay, torch 5 has 3/4s cast time ) its SLOWER then most power bursts, rev bursts faster due to quickness. name a specific build and scenario other then cthief where you see the no counterplay/unavoidable condi bursts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > look at power rev, > > > > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > > > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > > > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > > > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > > > > burst damage? its there. > > > > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > > > > > > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). > > > Laser disk, Blade Burst and Particle Accelerator. The multi hits have been listed, which you acknowledged, even though you said it doesn't have any. It does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of these only Laser Disc is a pulsing field. Its not used, however. Particle Accelerator straight up is just one single bolt. I also said no *pulsing damage fields*, not "no multi-hit attacks". Remember, the point was that there is much less you can do vs condi. With multi-hit attacks, they are fast, can be interrupted, or both. With a pulsing condi field, you have 2 options. Forfeit the point, or burn through active defenses to survive. You cant however stop the damage. Which is typically the case for condition damage. With power, you can stop it before it hits you. With condition usually only *after* it already hit you. > > I dont get it, the only difference between pulsing field and corona burst is that holo can move around with it to pressure you even more, what class do you even have in mind? the only insta bursts come from cthief, the closes to "insta" you can get is mesmer setting up big F2 shatter, they can put a threat of insta burst but the moment you destroy the clones its gone, its not out of stealth and the stealth is telegraphed, all the big condi is delayed ( torch 4 has 3s delay, torch 5 has 3/4s cast time ) its SLOWER then most power bursts, rev bursts faster due to quickness. name a specific build and scenario other then cthief where you see the no counterplay/unavoidable condi bursts. The problems is with burn dmg and classes who can probably put out a lot IE: weavers and burn guards prob the more problematic, and burn with few stacks can deal so much damage so quickly, unlike bleed and poison, which take far more stacks to burst you hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > look at power rev, > > > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > > > burst damage? its there. > > > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > > > > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). > > Laser disk, Blade Burst and Particle Accelerator. The multi hits have been listed, which you acknowledged, even though you said it doesn't have any. It does. > > > > > > > > Of these only Laser Disc is a pulsing field. Its not used, however. Doesn't matter if you never said it had to be used or not. >Particle Accelerator straight up is just one single bolt. No but its instant, which you said Holo doesn't have. Same with blade burst. It can also apply explosive entrance and launch a static discharge if your memeing hard. >I also said no *pulsing damage fields*, not "no multi-hit attacks". Then what does "Holo has no pulsing damage fields (**or even multi-hit attacks**). " mean? >With a pulsing condi field, you have 2 options. Forfeit the point, or burn through active defenses to survive. Good thing its the same for pulsing damage power fields. >You cant however stop the damage. Which is typically the case for condition damage. With power, you can stop it before it hits you. With condition usually only *after* it already hit you. Because you cant avoid being hit by an attack that applies conditions, terrible I know. The only time I would agree with you is steal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > look at power rev, > > > > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > > > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > > > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > > > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > > > > burst damage? its there. > > > > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > > > > > > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). > > > Laser disk, Blade Burst and Particle Accelerator. The multi hits have been listed, which you acknowledged, even though you said it doesn't have any. It does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of these only Laser Disc is a pulsing field. Its not used, however. Particle Accelerator straight up is just one single bolt. I also said no *pulsing damage fields*, not "no multi-hit attacks". Remember, the point was that there is much less you can do vs condi. With multi-hit attacks, they are fast, can be interrupted, or both. With a pulsing condi field, you have 2 options. Forfeit the point, or burn through active defenses to survive. You cant however stop the damage. Which is typically the case for condition damage. With power, you can stop it before it hits you. With condition usually only *after* it already hit you. > > I dont get it, the only difference between pulsing field and corona burst is that holo can move around with it to pressure you even more, what class do you even have in mind? the only insta bursts come from cthief, the closes to "insta" you can get is mesmer setting up big F2 shatter, they can put a threat of insta burst but the moment you destroy the clones its gone, its not out of stealth and the stealth is telegraphed, all the big condi is delayed ( torch 4 has 3s delay, torch 5 has 3/4s cast time ) its SLOWER then most power bursts, rev bursts faster due to quickness. name a specific build and scenario other then cthief where you see the no counterplay/unavoidable condi bursts. The biggest difference is that Corona hits only *one* more time, after a set delay. Though Im not actually sure what that delay is. 3 seconds, -ish? Point is, it cant deny the, well, point. Whereas a condi revs fields will continue pulsing and denying the point. Or a Scourges, back when that was good. And no, just about every condi build has some insta-burst. Burn Guardian has Judges intervention stacked with on-X effects. Mesmer has jaunt shatter nonsense. Besides its not just burst. Its *any* attack. Good luck avoiding a burn guardians burns, its not like he just needs to hit you with any attacks to get them off. Or a condi Engineer, if that was good. Every condi build relies almost *entirely* on unavoidable conditions. Because its not like Power Rev where you can dodge the deathstrike and they lose a lot of damage. There is no "death-strike". Just a bunch of effects that trigger off of any attacks, and instant cast skills and pulsing fields. You cant avoid conditions beforehand. Thats why theyre still good, even with cleanses being a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > look at power rev, > > > > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > > > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > > > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > > > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > > > > burst damage? its there. > > > > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > > > > > > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). > > > Laser disk, Blade Burst and Particle Accelerator. The multi hits have been listed, which you acknowledged, even though you said it doesn't have any. It does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of these only Laser Disc is a pulsing field. Its not used, however. > Doesn't matter if you never said it had to be used or not. > It does matter, because were comparing builds. Using a non-existent build as an example undermines your argument. > >Particle Accelerator straight up is just one single bolt. > No but its instant, which you said Holo doesn't have. Same with blade burst. It can also apply explosive entrance and launch a static discharge if your memeing hard. > It has a travel time. Though I shouldve elaborated that I meant both instant cast and instant *arrival*. > >I also said no *pulsing damage fields*, not "no multi-hit attacks". > Then what does "Holo has no pulsing damage fields (**or even multi-hit attacks**). " mean? > Ah. An error on my part. They have photon blitz after all. > >With a pulsing condi field, you have 2 options. Forfeit the point, or burn through active defenses to survive. > Good thing its the same for pulsing damage power fields. > Would be, if they existed and were used, theoretically. They either dont, or are not. As such, it isnt. > >You cant however stop the damage. Which is typically the case for condition damage. With power, you can stop it before it hits you. With condition usually only *after* it already hit you. > Because you cant avoid being hit by an attack that applies conditions, terrible I know. > Thats the issue. Its not "An attack that appleis condition" you need to avoid. Its *every single attack they launch throughout the entire fight* that you need to avoid. Its not like power where you identify a small number of particularly hard-hitting attacks, like say deathstrike, that you then avoid and drastically reduce their damage with. Condi builds either dont have an analogue, or its instant. No for condi builds, thanks to a variety of on-X effects, *every* attack they launch is their version of deathstrike. And even if you have dodged 5 "deathstrikes", the next 5 will be just as lethal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 condi got two parts. constant pressure. in this case you mostly use skill 1 and rely on passive effects. then the condi bomb that is your condition over. same with power builds. and power builds also got weapons that do condis aswell. so it is high dmg+small amount of condi ticks vs way lower dmg+big amount of condi ticks. considering you get 100% out of each condi, which most of the time won't be the case, because condis get cleansed so much. It is true that condis will be cleansed after dmg is done. same goes for dmg tho. if you get hit you use heal later. nobody would waste their heal when on 100% health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now