berserker - the weakest class of game defining new term

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > Berserker is certainly getting 'double dipped' for it's trade off. Not just the reduction in HP, but the fact that it gets three non-functioning minor traits outside of berserker mode.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think berserker is the only one that get non fonctioning minor traits when he doesn't use it's special mechanism.

> > >

> > > I think you missed my point ... NONE of the minor traits work when not in berserker mode. If that's not unique to only Berserker, that doesn't mean it's still not deficient.

> >

> > I agree that this kind of design isn't the best there is but like I said, it can hardly be seen as a trade-off.

>

> Hold on ... just because Berserker minor traits in the way Anet like to design them so that the spec fit in how they picture it doesn't mean they aren't deficient or trade offs. To be fair, you're right ... Minor traits not working in non-berserker mode aren't trade offs because you don't get ANYTHING in non-berserker mode when they don't work. it's just a plain old loss of trait benefits.

 

You have less than core warrior out of berk, then you have more than core warrior while in berk. If you want more linearity then stick to core warrior. If you want berk to just gain power and still basically be core warrior with more dmg, then... That's pretty stupid. 300 toughness less isn't an impactful tradeoff on its own. Minor traits "working only when" also isn't some sudden gamebreaking exception when all it does is enforces an intended pattern/playstyle on a class or spec.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > Berserker is certainly getting 'double dipped' for it's trade off. Not just the reduction in HP, but the fact that it gets three non-functioning minor traits outside of berserker mode.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't think berserker is the only one that get non fonctioning minor traits when he doesn't use it's special mechanism.

> > > >

> > > > I think you missed my point ... NONE of the minor traits work when not in berserker mode. If that's not unique to only Berserker, that doesn't mean it's still not deficient.

> > >

> > > I agree that this kind of design isn't the best there is but like I said, it can hardly be seen as a trade-off.

> >

> > Hold on ... just because Berserker minor traits in the way Anet like to design them so that the spec fit in how they picture it doesn't mean they aren't deficient or trade offs. To be fair, you're right ... Minor traits not working in non-berserker mode aren't trade offs because you don't get ANYTHING in non-berserker mode when they don't work. it's just a plain old loss of trait benefits.

>

> You have less than core warrior out of berk, then you have more than core warrior while in berk.

 

No actually you don't, because In berserker, I get EXACTLY the same number of functioning skills/traits/weapons as I do in Core. There isn't anything 'more' about being berserker mode than there is about being Core warrior because no objective way to measure that. Again, this was NEVER a performance-based argument, even though you insist on making it one because it's the only one you think you could win.

 

So you have a hypothesis there is a reasonable trade off between non-zerk and zerk mode that fairly equates it to a core spec build. OK ... hypothesis isn't much value in this discussion. I mean, do we take your hypothesis and just believe it so you think this shuts down the discussion? That's a pretty unreasonable approach to a debate if you ask me.

 

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> If you want more linearity then stick to core warrior. If you want berk to just gain power and still basically be core warrior with more dmg, then... That's pretty stupid. 300 toughness less isn't an impactful tradeoff on its own. Minor traits "working only when" also isn't some sudden gamebreaking exception when all it does is enforces an intended pattern/playstyle on a class or spec.

 

I'm not looking for linearity or berserker to gain power or making any claim that minor traits working only where are some gamebreaking exception ... that's just rhetoric from someone looking for an argument to have ... so no, I'm not asking for anything stupid (and to be completely fair, I didn't ask for ANYTHING). I simply don't think it's unreasonable to recognize the impact significance that those 3 minor traits have on non-zerk mode with respect to the topic of the thread.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > Berserker is certainly getting 'double dipped' for it's trade off. Not just the reduction in HP, but the fact that it gets three non-functioning minor traits outside of berserker mode.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't think berserker is the only one that get non fonctioning minor traits when he doesn't use it's special mechanism.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think you missed my point ... NONE of the minor traits work when not in berserker mode. If that's not unique to only Berserker, that doesn't mean it's still not deficient.

> > > >

> > > > I agree that this kind of design isn't the best there is but like I said, it can hardly be seen as a trade-off.

> > >

> > > Hold on ... just because Berserker minor traits in the way Anet like to design them so that the spec fit in how they picture it doesn't mean they aren't deficient or trade offs. To be fair, you're right ... Minor traits not working in non-berserker mode aren't trade offs because you don't get ANYTHING in non-berserker mode when they don't work. it's just a plain old loss of trait benefits.

> >

> > You have less than core warrior out of berk, then you have more than core warrior while in berk.

>

> No actually you don't, because In berserker, I get EXACTLY the same number of functioning skills/traits/weapons as I do in Core. There isn't anything 'more' about being berserker mode than there is about being Core warrior because no objective way to measure that. Again, this was NEVER a performance-based argument, even though you insist on making it one because it's the only one you think you could win.

 

Yes, you do. Why do you think I'm talking about "number of functioning skills/traits"? The number of traits/weapons/keys being available to press is irrelevant. I'm talking about the performance swings, because that's what matters ingame, not counting the traits for some reason, I thought it was pretty obvious here? You gain performance in berserker and lose performance out of it. Except it's not even "you gain x and lose x", instead you gain more "in it" than you lose "out of it", so overal performance/dps in proper conditions raises anyways. But for a price of losing versatility (some degree of freedom) and having clear power swings. Why would "number of traits" matter in any way to me (or anyone) when I'm talking clearly talking about power swings? Who cares about the sheer number of traits as a main determinant for anything, wth?

 

Number of traits doesn't matter in the slightest, what matters is what a class/spec does with avaialable resources. If any spec gets its 3 minor traits crammed into LITERALLY ONE and then gets the other 2 removed, it doesn't make the class make less sense, it literally changes nothing. Isolated "number of traits" does no matter for anything. And neither does "number of key presses" or whatever else you want to say about "design being bad because the number of squares isn't the same". That's just wrong and not what decides about the design being good, bad or deficient.

 

> So you have a hypothesis there is a reasonable trade off between non-zerk and zerk mode that fairly equates it to a core spec build. OK ... hypothesis isn't much value in this discussion. I mean, do we take your hypothesis and just believe it so you think this shuts down the discussion? That's a pretty unreasonable approach to a debate if you ask me.

 

It's not a hypothesis, it's a fact, go look for some tables and you'll understand that.

On the other hand your hypothesis is based literally on the number of squares available at a given time regardless of its contents and effects on the profession ingame. Oof, good job.

 

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > If you want more linearity then stick to core warrior. If you want berk to just gain power and still basically be core warrior with more dmg, then... That's pretty stupid. 300 toughness less isn't an impactful tradeoff on its own. Minor traits "working only when" also isn't some sudden gamebreaking exception when all it does is enforces an intended pattern/playstyle on a class or spec.

>

> I'm not looking for linearity or berserker to gain power or making any claim that minor traits working only where are some gamebreaking exception ... that's just rhetoric from someone looking for an argument to have ... so no, I'm not asking for anything stupid (and to be completely fair, I didn't ask for ANYTHING). I simply don't think it's unreasonable to recognize the impact significance that those 3 minor traits have on non-zerk mode with respect to the topic of the thread.

 

That's not a "rhetoric from someone looking for an argument to have", it's just that sheer number of traits means nothing. If all you have to say is "these traits don't work in this case, because they only work in that case!" and nothing more, then you're not saying anything. Because everyone knows that and it means nothing for the gameplay or subsequencially the validity of the design.

The "impact significance" is measured in ingame performance. You keep insisting that you don't care about that, you only care about the sheer number of traits. So what exactly is your point above the irrelevant number of working squares?

 

 

Edit:

>There isn't anything 'more' about being berserker mode than there is about being Core warrior because no objective way to measure that.

 

Also, that's a lie. You measure it through ingame performance and it's possible to objectively check through the numbers.

[Obtena.7952]

Well, I'm not having this argument with you again because nothing has changed since to address the non-functioning minors. Believe what you like about how objectively you think you can assess performance; it's not relevant to my points. My argument isn't related to performance, it's related to design. Since you don't see this as a design deficiency, we can't continue the discussion; you just aren't on my plane of thinking.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Well, I'm not having this argument with you again because nothing has changed since to address the non-functioning minors. Believe what you like, but you won't convince me I'm wrong, just like I won't convince you. You don't see this as a design deficiency so we can't continue the discussion; you just aren't on my plane of thinking.

 

You're not having this argument, because you can't admit when you're wrong (at least that's what it looks like to me, this one's actually an opinion) and instead decided to insist that the number of squares in the ui is directly related to your self-established value of design. Which is false and I already explained "why" in the previous post. It has "on/off" traits to enforce a slightly different gameplay pattern from the core warrior and by far it doesn't make a design deficient. You do you.

[Lighter.5631]

it would make sense if you actually did gain anything from berserker, but any tiny positive feed back from berserk is nullified by -300 toughness, so you basically gain almost to none positive while having to play as 2/3 of a warrior for half the time.

[Mack.3045]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> it would make sense if you actually did gain anything from berserker, but any tiny positive feed back from berserk is nullified by -300 toughness, so you basically gain almost to none positive while having to play as 2/3 of a warrior for half the time.

 

Yeh without running Eternal Champion +300 toughness and 2 second stab on stun-break we super squish

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Well, I'm not having this argument with you again because nothing has changed since to address the non-functioning minors. Believe what you like, but you won't convince me I'm wrong, just like I won't convince you. You don't see this as a design deficiency so we can't continue the discussion; you just aren't on my plane of thinking.

>

> You're not having this argument, because ...

 

No, I told you why I'm not having it; you refuse to address my main and long standing point that this is a design deficiency. You skirt around it with ideas that you know how to measure build performance to prove me wrong ... except good performance doesn't say anything about design.

 

You just let me know when you figure out how to address the points I'm making about design deficiencies without trying to divert it down some irrelevant performance discussion or subjective evaluations of it.

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Well, I'm not having this argument with you again because nothing has changed since to address the non-functioning minors. Believe what you like, but you won't convince me I'm wrong, just like I won't convince you. You don't see this as a design deficiency so we can't continue the discussion; you just aren't on my plane of thinking.

> >

> > You're not having this argument, because ...

>

> No, I told you why I'm not having it; you refuse to address my main and long standing point that this is a design deficiency. You skirt around it with ideas that you know how to measure build performance to prove me wrong ... except good performance doesn't say anything about design.

>

> You just let me know when you figure out how to address the points I'm making about design deficiencies without trying to divert it down some irrelevant performance discussion or subjective evaluations of it.

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1242898/#Comment_1242898

I've already addressed everything you said, what exactly did I "skirt around"? You claim that a design is deficient because traits have 'on/off' mode (in other words "less squares in ui" when they're inactive) to quite obviously force a certain playstyle. That's a terribly baseless claim. Straight up false. To which you stated you won't be having this argument. Who exactly is "skirting around" here?

[TeqkOneStylez.8047]

I could make a full detailed post about everything wrong with berserker but it basically comes down to:

 

If you build how a berserker should play you die way easier than you kill because warriors actually have to play the game and don't have instant cast cheese dmg/stealth/teleports etc so you will be kited and dodged because warriors have animations.

 

Rifle is trash so you are basically stuck on GS Axe shield anyways which means you are taking a worse version of evicerate and arcing slice ( yes arcing slice ) So now you have no fury and you are more telegraphed and clunkier while having burst on a longer cooldown for no reason other than PVE reasons. Im not even gonna get into the warrior specific tech that you could be doing if you were core or spellbreaker but lose out on by being berserker due to the design mechanic rendering it less viable.

 

So at best you are either a gimmick build which will be shut down as soon as you play against real players who know how to play conquest. Or you build more realistically if you are gonna pick zerker and basically counter anets design by picking discipline , zerker, and Defense if you want any kind of respectable Offense/Defense ratio. I would give the rest of the setup but the build requires actual game knowledge to play effectively so it doesn't free carry but its about as good as you are probably gonna get balance-wise as a power berserker which still falls behind what I could play on core or spell.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:

> I could make a full detailed post about everything wrong with berserker but it basically comes down to:

>

> If you build how a berserker should play you die way easier than you kill because warriors actually have to play the game and don't have instant cast cheese dmg/stealth/teleports etc so you will be kited and dodged because warriors have animations.

>

> Rifle is trash so you are basically stuck on GS Axe shield anyways which means you are taking a worse version of evicerate and arcing slice ( yes arcing slice ) So now you have no fury and you are more telegraphed and clunkier while having burst on a longer cooldown for no reason other than PVE reasons. Im not even gonna get into the warrior specific tech that you could be doing if you were core or spellbreaker but lose out on by being berserker due to the design mechanic rendering it less viable.

>

> So at best you are either a gimmick build which will be shut down as soon as you play against real players who know how to play conquest. Or you build more realistically if you are gonna pick zerker and basically counter anets design by picking discipline , zerker, and Defense if you want any kind of respectable Offense/Defense ratio. I would give the rest of the setup but the build requires actual game knowledge to play effectively so it doesn't free carry but its about as good as you are probably gonna get balance-wise as a power berserker which still falls behind what I could play on core or spell.

 

Sounds like Rousing Resilience and Eternal Champion and a certain rune. Yeah, that drops a fair bit of damage unless you take Strength of Discipline.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:

 

> Rifle is trash so you are basically stuck on GS Axe shield anyways which means you are taking a worse version of evicerate and arcing slice ( yes arcing slice )

 

lol this is so true, every single primal burst suck with huge triple gate,

berserker is way squishier yet it has to to stay close longer while not being able to mitigate damage because he has to cast this long kitten whooping 1 3/4 second arc divider, not to mention how telegraphed it is, even one late timed dodge can dodge two hits is quite funny

 

they should reverse the 25% damage nerf, as now all damage's lowered, restore the 25% damage won't one shot people at all

or better yet just redesign all these primal burst skills

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Warrior design and playstyle was build around the idea that the hard cc be a big part of the classes burst damage rotation. Stripping the damage from hard cc hit war harder than other classes. Also its sustain via might gain was nerfed thru so many avenues the heal signet and mmr pairing synergy is now useless dumbing down the class even further. It doesn't even take much to see these thing and it was predicted by many war players. This team isnt the saviors people praised them to be so good luck. I get blanket dropping problem areas and admitting that will cause some issues, but anet u gotta follow thru with those issues instead of leaving the problems to exist for yrs before fixing. Uve deleted passive traits due to not likening the passive idea and thsts fine but they were staples in a lot of builds in a game that already suffers build deversity issues and how long has it been, 6 months now and their still useless place holders? So u gonna work on em in a yr, or 2 yrs from now?

[TeqkOneStylez.8047]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:

> > I could make a full detailed post about everything wrong with berserker but it basically comes down to:

> >

> > If you build how a berserker should play you die way easier than you kill because warriors actually have to play the game and don't have instant cast cheese dmg/stealth/teleports etc so you will be kited and dodged because warriors have animations.

> >

> > Rifle is trash so you are basically stuck on GS Axe shield anyways which means you are taking a worse version of evicerate and arcing slice ( yes arcing slice ) So now you have no fury and you are more telegraphed and clunkier while having burst on a longer cooldown for no reason other than PVE reasons. Im not even gonna get into the warrior specific tech that you could be doing if you were core or spellbreaker but lose out on by being berserker due to the design mechanic rendering it less viable.

> >

> > So at best you are either a gimmick build which will be shut down as soon as you play against real players who know how to play conquest. Or you build more realistically if you are gonna pick zerker and basically counter anets design by picking discipline , zerker, and Defense if you want any kind of respectable Offense/Defense ratio. I would give the rest of the setup but the build requires actual game knowledge to play effectively so it doesn't free carry but its about as good as you are probably gonna get balance-wise as a power berserker which still falls behind what I could play on core or spell.

>

> Sounds like Rousing Resilience and Eternal Champion and a certain rune. Yeah, that drops a fair bit of damage unless you take Strength of Discipline.

 

Rousing resil, shield trait ( so that you actually have a little something typical war doesnt lately out of reflect ), and armored attack which the options in this tier are bad but just to boost dmg from defense.

 

the other keys are you use demolisher amulet, headbutt ( to self cc to activate rousing res ) and then berserk traits you go full bottom which are all defensive ironically.

 

Then the heal you use is defiant stance .

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:

> > > I could make a full detailed post about everything wrong with berserker but it basically comes down to:

> > >

> > > If you build how a berserker should play you die way easier than you kill because warriors actually have to play the game and don't have instant cast cheese dmg/stealth/teleports etc so you will be kited and dodged because warriors have animations.

> > >

> > > Rifle is trash so you are basically stuck on GS Axe shield anyways which means you are taking a worse version of evicerate and arcing slice ( yes arcing slice ) So now you have no fury and you are more telegraphed and clunkier while having burst on a longer cooldown for no reason other than PVE reasons. Im not even gonna get into the warrior specific tech that you could be doing if you were core or spellbreaker but lose out on by being berserker due to the design mechanic rendering it less viable.

> > >

> > > So at best you are either a gimmick build which will be shut down as soon as you play against real players who know how to play conquest. Or you build more realistically if you are gonna pick zerker and basically counter anets design by picking discipline , zerker, and Defense if you want any kind of respectable Offense/Defense ratio. I would give the rest of the setup but the build requires actual game knowledge to play effectively so it doesn't free carry but its about as good as you are probably gonna get balance-wise as a power berserker which still falls behind what I could play on core or spell.

> >

> > Sounds like Rousing Resilience and Eternal Champion and a certain rune. Yeah, that drops a fair bit of damage unless you take Strength of Discipline.

>

> Rousing resil, shield trait ( so that you actually have a little something typical war doesnt lately out of reflect ), and armored attack which the options in this tier are bad but just to boost dmg from defense.

>

> the other keys are you use demolisher amulet, headbutt ( to self cc to activate rousing res ) and then berserk traits you go full bottom which are all defensive ironically.

>

> Then the heal you use is defiant stance .

 

Pretty much what I figured. Tempest runes for the extra heal on stunbreak or something else?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > Well, I'm not having this argument with you again because nothing has changed since to address the non-functioning minors. Believe what you like, but you won't convince me I'm wrong, just like I won't convince you. You don't see this as a design deficiency so we can't continue the discussion; you just aren't on my plane of thinking.

> > >

> > > You're not having this argument, because ...

> >

> > No, I told you why I'm not having it; you refuse to address my main and long standing point that this is a design deficiency. You skirt around it with ideas that you know how to measure build performance to prove me wrong ... except good performance doesn't say anything about design.

> >

> > You just let me know when you figure out how to address the points I'm making about design deficiencies without trying to divert it down some irrelevant performance discussion or subjective evaluations of it.

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1242898/#Comment_1242898

> I've already addressed everything you said, what exactly did I "skirt around"? You claim that a design is deficient because traits have 'on/off' mode (in other words "less squares in ui" when they're inactive) to quite obviously force a certain playstyle. That's a terribly baseless claim. Straight up false. To which you stated you won't be having this argument. Who exactly is "skirting around" here?

 

Sure ... I will keep my eye out when you want to have a rational discussion about the points I've made and not the ones you want to divert with.

[TeqkOneStylez.8047]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:

> > > > I could make a full detailed post about everything wrong with berserker but it basically comes down to:

> > > >

> > > > If you build how a berserker should play you die way easier than you kill because warriors actually have to play the game and don't have instant cast cheese dmg/stealth/teleports etc so you will be kited and dodged because warriors have animations.

> > > >

> > > > Rifle is trash so you are basically stuck on GS Axe shield anyways which means you are taking a worse version of evicerate and arcing slice ( yes arcing slice ) So now you have no fury and you are more telegraphed and clunkier while having burst on a longer cooldown for no reason other than PVE reasons. Im not even gonna get into the warrior specific tech that you could be doing if you were core or spellbreaker but lose out on by being berserker due to the design mechanic rendering it less viable.

> > > >

> > > > So at best you are either a gimmick build which will be shut down as soon as you play against real players who know how to play conquest. Or you build more realistically if you are gonna pick zerker and basically counter anets design by picking discipline , zerker, and Defense if you want any kind of respectable Offense/Defense ratio. I would give the rest of the setup but the build requires actual game knowledge to play effectively so it doesn't free carry but its about as good as you are probably gonna get balance-wise as a power berserker which still falls behind what I could play on core or spell.

> > >

> > > Sounds like Rousing Resilience and Eternal Champion and a certain rune. Yeah, that drops a fair bit of damage unless you take Strength of Discipline.

> >

> > Rousing resil, shield trait ( so that you actually have a little something typical war doesnt lately out of reflect ), and armored attack which the options in this tier are bad but just to boost dmg from defense.

> >

> > the other keys are you use demolisher amulet, headbutt ( to self cc to activate rousing res ) and then berserk traits you go full bottom which are all defensive ironically.

> >

> > Then the heal you use is defiant stance .

>

> Pretty much what I figured. Tempest runes for the extra heal on stunbreak or something else?

 

I think I was toying with mostly strength, vampirism, and dolyak since dead or alive trait boosts heals but doesnt show the new value in tooltips. So all that plus you also heal from adrenal health when entering berserk mode.

 

Defiant stance , Endure pain, shake it off, bulls charge , headbutt , sigil of energy somewhere due to loss of might makes right endurance.

 

The main gameplay strat is you pretty much have to play really aggressive, the more people in the fight the better because if you are being targetted, being cc'd helps you and if you are low you get defiant stance and people will monkey spam you because gank mentality.

 

Defiant stance also means you can take advantage of the teamfights that quickly devolve into air pollution and ground litter and just stand in it while cleaving.

 

In lower scale fights or 1 vs 1 when fighting I wont use endure pain or shield block first time, I fight aggressive and then if I get low I heal and now is the time to use shield and edure pain as stalling tools to help you survive to the next heal if needed.

 

If you have no dodge , endure, or block left and say a deadeye uses deaths judgemeny on you for example or anyone with a big 1 shot burst, you can activate berserk mode right as you are about to get hit to immune the hit and basically use it as a block.

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:

> > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > > @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:

> > > > > I could make a full detailed post about everything wrong with berserker but it basically comes down to:

> > > > >

> > > > > If you build how a berserker should play you die way easier than you kill because warriors actually have to play the game and don't have instant cast cheese dmg/stealth/teleports etc so you will be kited and dodged because warriors have animations.

> > > > >

> > > > > Rifle is trash so you are basically stuck on GS Axe shield anyways which means you are taking a worse version of evicerate and arcing slice ( yes arcing slice ) So now you have no fury and you are more telegraphed and clunkier while having burst on a longer cooldown for no reason other than PVE reasons. Im not even gonna get into the warrior specific tech that you could be doing if you were core or spellbreaker but lose out on by being berserker due to the design mechanic rendering it less viable.

> > > > >

> > > > > So at best you are either a gimmick build which will be shut down as soon as you play against real players who know how to play conquest. Or you build more realistically if you are gonna pick zerker and basically counter anets design by picking discipline , zerker, and Defense if you want any kind of respectable Offense/Defense ratio. I would give the rest of the setup but the build requires actual game knowledge to play effectively so it doesn't free carry but its about as good as you are probably gonna get balance-wise as a power berserker which still falls behind what I could play on core or spell.

> > > >

> > > > Sounds like Rousing Resilience and Eternal Champion and a certain rune. Yeah, that drops a fair bit of damage unless you take Strength of Discipline.

> > >

> > > Rousing resil, shield trait ( so that you actually have a little something typical war doesnt lately out of reflect ), and armored attack which the options in this tier are bad but just to boost dmg from defense.

> > >

> > > the other keys are you use demolisher amulet, headbutt ( to self cc to activate rousing res ) and then berserk traits you go full bottom which are all defensive ironically.

> > >

> > > Then the heal you use is defiant stance .

> >

> > Pretty much what I figured. Tempest runes for the extra heal on stunbreak or something else?

>

> I think I was toying with mostly strength, vampirism, and dolyak since dead or alive trait boosts heals but doesnt show the new value in tooltips. So all that plus you also heal from adrenal health when entering berserk mode.

If you are doing that to leverage DoA then Vampirism or Tempest would be best, Dolyak though is still good for the sustain.

> Defiant stance , Endure pain, shake it off, bulls charge , headbutt , sigil of energy somewhere due to loss of might makes right endurance.

>

> The main gameplay strat is you pretty much have to play really aggressive, the more people in the fight the better because if you are being targetted, being cc'd helps you and if you are low you get defiant stance and people will monkey spam you because gank mentality.

You'd have to be careful with the 1/4 cast time though. There are a number of times I've waited just a frame too long to activate Defiant Stance and suffered for it. Its so quick that it feels like it should be instant, but it isn't, and that frame matters.

> Defiant stance also means you can take advantage of the teamfights that quickly devolve into air pollution and ground litter and just stand in it while cleaving.

Defiant Stance is the face tank stance afterall

> In lower scale fights or 1 vs 1 when fighting I wont use endure pain or shield block first time, I fight aggressive and then if I get low I heal and now is the time to use shield and edure pain as stalling tools to help you survive to the next heal if needed.

>

> If you have no dodge , endure, or block left and say a deadeye uses deaths judgemeny on you for example or anyone with a big 1 shot burst, you can activate berserk mode right as you are about to get hit to immune the hit and basically use it as a block.

>

>

Nice trick, and a good example of why you shouldn't rush into Berserk mode.

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > Well, I'm not having this argument with you again because nothing has changed since to address the non-functioning minors. Believe what you like, but you won't convince me I'm wrong, just like I won't convince you. You don't see this as a design deficiency so we can't continue the discussion; you just aren't on my plane of thinking.

> > > >

> > > > You're not having this argument, because ...

> > >

> > > No, I told you why I'm not having it; you refuse to address my main and long standing point that this is a design deficiency. You skirt around it with ideas that you know how to measure build performance to prove me wrong ... except good performance doesn't say anything about design.

> > >

> > > You just let me know when you figure out how to address the points I'm making about design deficiencies without trying to divert it down some irrelevant performance discussion or subjective evaluations of it.

> >

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1242898/#Comment_1242898

> > I've already addressed everything you said, what exactly did I "skirt around"? You claim that a design is deficient because traits have 'on/off' mode (in other words "less squares in ui" when they're inactive) to quite obviously force a certain playstyle. That's a terribly baseless claim. Straight up false. To which you stated you won't be having this argument. Who exactly is "skirting around" here?

>

> Sure ... I will keep my eye out when you want to have a rational discussion about the points I've made and not the ones you want to divert with.

 

No problem, I will keep waiting for the moment you stop being scared of being wrong and actually ready to accept any arguments at all instead of conveniently claiming I'm somehow "skirting around what you've said" while I answered to everything you said and you've answered to nothing. :)

 

__________

Not to mention your "I simply don't think it's unreasonable to recognize the impact significance", but then claiming it's not about performance at all just to conveniently dismiss anything I said. Because "impact significance" is totally not relying on actual ingame performance, ooookeeeeey.

It's pretty clear by now it's not that "you're not talking about performance", it's that you're only accepting when you want to use it as a measurement/example/argument, but anything else is "irrelevant, because it's not about performance (...anymore, I guess)".

 

________________

You also acknowledged this (your message quoted here):

>So you have a hypothesis there is a reasonable trade off between non-zerk and zerk mode that fairly equates it to a core spec build. OK ... hypothesis isn't much value in this discussion. I mean, do we take your hypothesis and just believe it so you think this shuts down the discussion? That's a pretty unreasonable approach to a debate if you ask me.

 

But then claim it's just "my opinion/hypothesis". It's not, it's literally measurable in numbers ingame, a.k.a performance and it's a fact.

If you actually understand what design is, you also know it's unreasonable to base your "design value" by sheer number of squares (traits), because that number doesn't matter, what matters is their contents and how they impact the game. Again, "you're not talking about performance", so apparently you have no point at all. It doesn't matter in the slightest that "they work half the time, and don't work another half", because it's not random in any way, it's not catching the player using it by surprise, he has control and full knowledge about it and all it does is enforce a specific playstyle pattern. It's a tool design specifically for that, yet you're claiming the design is deficient because... I don't know, it does what it was supposed to do?

And you probably know that, which is why after that post you've decided you're "not having this argument".

________

And by no means can we forget about the "convenient at the correct time" claim:

 

>There isn't anything 'more' about being berserker mode than there is about being Core warrior because no objective way to measure that.

 

If you can't measure that (you can, by ingame performance btw), then I'm not sure how you can be so adamant about its deficiency. That makes no sense in the slightest and you're actively shooting yourself in the knee by claiming it can't be objectively measured but somehow you know the answer, which is: "deficient!".

[Obtena.7952]

Sigh ... sorry, I just don't have the bandwidth to deal with these attack and delay tactics. You didn't want to engage the first time around and you aren't doing much better this time either. If you don't think the design is deficient, that's great for you. We don't have much to say to each other in that case, especially when you just brush it off because 'performance'.

 

> @"TeqkOneStylez.8047" said:

> I could make a full detailed post about everything wrong with berserker but it basically comes down to:

>

> If you build how a berserker should play you die way easier than you kill because warriors actually have to play the game and don't have instant cast cheese dmg/stealth/teleports etc so you will be kited and dodged because warriors have animations.

>

> Rifle is trash so you are basically stuck on GS Axe shield anyways which means you are taking a worse version of evicerate and arcing slice ( yes arcing slice ) So now you have no fury and you are more telegraphed and clunkier while having burst on a longer cooldown for no reason other than PVE reasons. Im not even gonna get into the warrior specific tech that you could be doing if you were core or spellbreaker but lose out on by being berserker due to the design mechanic rendering it less viable.

>

> So at best you are either a gimmick build which will be shut down as soon as you play against real players who know how to play conquest. Or you build more realistically if you are gonna pick zerker and basically counter anets design by picking discipline , zerker, and Defense if you want any kind of respectable Offense/Defense ratio. I would give the rest of the setup but the build requires actual game knowledge to play effectively so it doesn't free carry but its about as good as you are probably gonna get balance-wise as a power berserker which still falls behind what I could play on core or spell.

 

The impact of missing those minors is pretty significant in this example. The only reason we have to instacast cheese is because berserker espec forces a predicable playstyle. Predictability is a killer in competitive game modes.

[Lighter.5631]

just give a pseudo teleport to berserker, it would be instant viable and be competing with thief and rev, even if it's too op just increase penality.

berserker is the perfect candidate to compete with the roaming role..that's being dominating only by rev and thief, while everybody else just plays bruiser and warrior is just the least favorable bruiser because it has 0 team fight potential, it's skills hardly hit when people just spamming all the aoes around and is stuck with 1v1 side node forever.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Sigh ... sorry, I just don't have the bandwidth to deal with these attack and delay tactics. You didn't want to engage the first time around and you aren't doing much better this time either. If you don't think the design is deficient, that's great for you. We don't have much to say to each other in that case, especially when you just brush it off because 'performance'.

 

Nothing here is an "attack and delay tactic". I'm literally answering to everything you've said and unsurprisingly once you have nothing to say, just for the sake of not admitting you're wrong (even after clearly contradicting yourself) you'll claim you won't have that discussion. At the same time you keep responding, except without a change you're not responding to anything I said (that was a direct response to what you said). Yup, nothing changed indeed.

 

If anyone "doesn't want to engage" here, it's without a doubt you.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> just give a pseudo teleport to berserker, it would be instant viable and be competing with thief and rev, even if it's too op just increase penality.

> berserker is the perfect candidate to compete with the roaming role..that's being dominating only by rev and thief, while everybody else just plays bruiser and warrior is just the least favorable bruiser because it has 0 team fight potential, it's skills hardly hit when people just spamming all the aoes around and is stuck with 1v1 side node forever.

 

I guess the question is what role is this epsec best at doing. if there would be any improvements, they would have the greatest benefit to the thing the spec does the best doing.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > just give a pseudo teleport to berserker, it would be instant viable and be competing with thief and rev, even if it's too op just increase penality.

> > berserker is the perfect candidate to compete with the roaming role..that's being dominating only by rev and thief, while everybody else just plays bruiser and warrior is just the least favorable bruiser because it has 0 team fight potential, it's skills hardly hit when people just spamming all the aoes around and is stuck with 1v1 side node forever.

>

> I guess the question is what role is this epsec best at doing. if there would be any improvements, they would have the greatest benefit to the thing the spec does the best doing.

>

 

Undo all damage nerfs to Berserker skills.

[Strider.7849]

I want them to revert the berserker changes entirely, it's just too slow paced.. I would like them to keep the current arc divider though (even if it needs toning down) - it's really fun to use.

 

What isn't fun is having no F1 burst outside of berserker mode and the feeling like you're just kind of sitting there waiting for the cooldown to come off. In WvW I simply treat berserker like I do fighting a reaper - kite/range/be defensive when they enter berserker mode (shroud) and the second they pop out, go ham.