Guild wars 2 community and how it changed

[Timbersword.9014]

Don't mistake elitists trying to change the requirements to entering their little club house as a representation for the community as a whole. There are players that will gate keep to make things easier for themselves (the infamously paradoxical "you have to have run this already to be allowed to run this") Though these types of players are _everywhere_. If the game features tons of exclusives/time sensitive prizes, they'll staunchly defend keeping these items from ever becoming available again. Anything that can be flaunted as a badge of merit will have a group rally around these badges, but likewise, there are always people that think this behavior is stupid, even childish.

 

In my experience, if a community goes into the toilet, it's because the game's culture has encouraged optimizing the fun right out of the game and the developers did nothing to prevent it from spreading. Usually prevalent in PvP games (amidst all the balance complaints) but definitely possible in PvE games that focus on grinding and farming.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Blackwolfmetal.3640" said:

> Dear fellow Tyrians

>

> I have been playing GW2 ever since launch and over the years something has come to my attention. This used to be a very pure, friendly and nice community but over the years it gotten from bad to worse. The level of toxicity in the community is SO high that this game lost most of its fun factor. In general players have become extremly selfish, toxic, elitist and just plain mean. There is hardly any repsect anymore. For example i decided to PUG a fractals /cm's group. It was a group that asked for 75 killproof and i have over 200.They asked me for killproof wich i linked to them. Aparantly this was not enough. I linked it in 3 differeant ways. Still not enough. I got accused for using a chat code (had no idea what that even was and had to research that later) and got kicked instantly. I whispered the group leader asking an explanation and he was mean, accused me again of faking it and said i linked my killproof TOO slow (i have to run to the bank and link it how can i do it any faster?). kitten is this kitten. This is ridiculous toxic behaviour. What do you want me to do? Screenshot it and mail it to you? This is going way TOO far.

>

> Being very rude to people you don't know (and for no valid reason even) has somehow become acceptable in todays gaming world. But the fact is, this is NOT acceptable. If you would behave like this in real life there is a big chance you'd get punched in the face (wich would in this case kinda be deserved eventhough i don't like violence).

>

> Killproof is a allready a system i despise and should be removed from gaming. Its a discriminating and unlogical system that gives players that don't have it no chance of even proving themselves.

>

> Before any of you start accusing me of being just a noob with fake killproof (had to research and ask around to even know this is being done somehow). I really do have alot of exp in this type of content (always have in every game i ever played like this) and i really do have over 200Kp. And i really am an exception. Even when i had no KP i constantly had to prove people wrong with my skill level (not bragging or anything) that i can handle the content. Even if someone has no KP, that doesn't automaticly mean they suck. There are people like me that can generally just handle high pve content and "do their homework" before they start this type of content.

>

> Having said this. Behaviour like this HAS TO STOP! Its this kind of behaviour that takes out the fun factor and makes people quit the game or even online gaming in general in some cases (have seen that before).

>

> Treat others like you yourself would like to be treated...!

>

> Respect.

 

This is definitely not new behaviour ... we saw it with dungeons 7 years ago.

[Shivan.9438]

When I got into GW1 a friend said there's a few things that you need to know before you start playing.

 

1.) Language. People in pub chat will ask you not to curse and will report you for excessive amounts of it.

2.) Don't be a jerk. A little trolling is fun, but don't try to make someone have a bad day if they're just asking an innocent question.

3.) The people who are playing the game are the ones with the answers. The people sitting around the city are either waiting for a group to zone, or they're just there because they're bored AF all and you're chances of getting something helpful are kinda slim. In other words, don't swim in murky water.

 

But over all, the GW community was pretty positive. Now in GW2.... not so much. I also remember a lot more Anet Rep interaction with the players.

Watching a Dhuum ban come down was a sight to behold. Or when you saw a little girl in chat (that wasn't a player) start talking creepy smack, then chase someone down and the next thing you know, that person was smoked and banned, it felt like a community. People pitching in, everyone cared.

[torakun.9638]

This is funny for me because I just came from the most toxic (no one can prove me otherwise) community ever, FIFA - Ultimate team (football game), by EA. Arguably much more diverse and vast compared to GW2 (around 9-10 million active player around the world , now on its yearly ending cycle, still managed 5 mill ppl active as of last week), but the toxicity is nothing compared to any game I've played.

 

People literally work hard to piss you off to get you to rage quit, by mine and many others experiences, at least 7/10 games. Here's some of my personal experience.

 

1 game is around 15-18 mins IRL. There are some objectives every week that can grant you a limited new player card. Example of the objective is: "Score 1 goal with Spanish player in 5 different matches WIN". So many people tried to stop my Spanish players, even at the risk of getting a red card (sending off) just so that I won't complete my objective. Here's the kicker... They already losing to me anyway.

 

Here's a picture for you:

 

On the 70th mins, I had my spanish attacker clear through on goal, guess what? instead of jostling with my attacker, he just slide tackle from behind to guarantee the stopping of the game. He got a red card.

 

Then on the 85th mins, I got through on goal again, this time with non Spanish attacker. He let it go. Even moved his keeper for me to score. Naturally I thought, "oh, he's being generous now after getting a red card. He knows there's no way back with the time remaining and the score he's behind".

 

Oh how I was wrong. 90th mins extra time, finally my Spanish attacker is free and running toward his goal. He slide tackle with 4 of his remaining defenders just to deliberately foul me, literally chasing to slide tackle from all angle. At the end, my spanish attacker ended up injured, and I needed to replace him.

 

In the end, 5 matches became 4 days work of around 30 matches because of the toxicity. There were many ways btw, to make sure that we won't be able to accomplish our objectives easily. One guy disconnected when I got a penalty and about to score with my Spanish player, and I got a draw result. One guy even acted so fast turning off his modem when I was through on goal 1v1 with his GK. Suddenly the game got DC before I even managed to shoot the ball, and I got another draw.

 

That's also just 1 example during objective weeks. During the match itself, if you're not seething on every match, you have no emotion left, or just plain immune to the toxicity. People run through the whole half pitch while shushing you when they score a lucky/gifted goal, people never skip any replay/celebration to waste time to get you mad and rage quit. People pausing 3 times in a row with each pause is 1 min in length, again, to get you to quit. ETC

 

There's even a topic about mental health every single week on their official forum. People posting thread saying how playing FIFA had destroyed their relationship with their wife/gf/kids, broken controller happen weekly (1 controller cost $60 new), people mentioning how depressed they are and wanted to kill themselves over missing a card/got a bad drop, and many more. This is real and it is happening as we speak! Sadly, EA, will never change. This game is their biggest moneymaker.

 

Compared that with GW2? its nothing. Since I came back 2 weeks ago, so many people had take their time to help me with my question, even 1 guy deliberately took maybe 3 hours spamming to teach ppl who never been to Strike mission with so much care and kindness, for free moreover!

 

In FIFA people finding joy in your misfortune/grief/anger. Imagine in GW2 if majority player base is actively trying to make you fail your raid/fractal/WvW, over and over again. Now that's going to be similar like FIFA. Rejection and elitism is nothing new, and if you're offended by those (Admittedly, I agree) jerks asking for KP and wasnt nice to you, don't try other MMO (WoW, for example), or ONLINE competitive game. You'll lose faith in humanity and going to become toxic human being yourself.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Blackwolfmetal.3640" said:

> I linked it in 3 differeant ways. Still not enough.

 

How exactly did you link your KP? The simple way to ping KP is to hold CTRL and left click on the item, this will ping it in chat. If you click it 3-4 times in a row it will instantly ping the KP enough times for any group. I'm not sure how holding CTRL and left clicking on an item 3-4 times can be done "slowly". Maybe the group didn't want to play with you for whatever reason and were looking for excuses

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> This is definitely not new behaviour ... we saw it with dungeons 7 years ago.

The one thing that did change is that the devs, for some reason or another, are desperately trying to mix groups with completely different playstyles and approaches to enjoyment in the same types of content, instead of letting those groups stay separate. Most of the so called "toxicity" that happens (both ways) is a direct result of those groups, when together, creating a very volatile combination.

In dungeons, it was way easier for those differing groups to just ignore each other, because that at most might have influenced the clear time, but did not reduce the chances of success. That's however no longer the case. Previously, it might have been some players angry at run taking unnecessarily long (even if sometimes this amounted to only few minutes more), versus some that thought others are unnecessarily obnoxious about mere 5-10 minutes (even if sometimes it was way longer than that). Now it's conflict between "players causing us to fail" and "those players that are gatekeeping the content and trying to keep us out of it". The clash between the groups is now not only made more visible, and more present throughout the active content, but also got elevated to a much higher degree than before.

 

And that, of course, means that people nowadays tend to be more toxic and less civil on average towards each other.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> the devs ... are desperately trying to mix groups with completely different playstyles and approaches to enjoyment **in the same types of content**

I don't think that by itself is an issue, there is no reason why there shouldn't be instanced group content aimed towards a more casual audience. The problem is that there is no deviation within these types of content, aiming for a vertical content structure when they should have gone for a horizontal one.

[Henry.5713]

A lot of players might simply assume that anyone at your level of kills would know exactly how they are supposed to link their KPs. Your possible lack of knowledge might have made them suspicious. And to be quite fair, I hardly ever pug myself but I am fully aware of what a pug group would expect of me. This makes me wonder if there isn't another side to your rather sensational story, there almost always is. And I am sorry if that makes me sound "toxic".

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > This is definitely not new behaviour ... we saw it with dungeons 7 years ago.

> The one thing that did change is that the devs, for some reason or another, are desperately trying to mix groups with completely different playstyles and approaches to enjoyment in the same types of content, instead of letting those groups stay separate. Most of the so called "toxicity" that happens (both ways) is a direct result of those groups, when together, creating a very volatile combination.

> In dungeons, it was way easier for those differing groups to just ignore each other, because that at most might have influenced the clear time, but did not reduce the chances of success. That's however no longer the case. Previously, it might have been some players angry at run taking unnecessarily long (even if sometimes this amounted to only few minutes more), versus some that thought others are unnecessarily obnoxious about mere 5-10 minutes (even if sometimes it was way longer than that). Now it's conflict between "players causing us to fail" and "those players that are gatekeeping the content and trying to keep us out of it". The clash between the groups is now not only made more visible, and more present throughout the active content, but also got elevated to a much higher degree than before.

>

> And that, of course, means that people nowadays tend to be more toxic and less civil on average towards each other.

 

Sure, but the complaint of the OP is that he's seeing this 'new' behaviour. It's not new. It's also quite avoidable, as it ever has been.

[Mortifera.6138]

Reddit used to love GW2. Then last year happened (layoffs, PAX, build loadouts, reskins).

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Sure, but the complaint of the OP is that he's seeing this 'new' behaviour. It's not new. It's also quite avoidable, as it ever has been.

The point i was making was that, while the behaviour in itself is not new indeed, due to changes in the game it is now stronger, more visible and harder to avoid.

 

[Tumult.2578]

I believe the current player population is made up of more players seeking to do harder content, once, for great reward, and then never again going back but instead going to the Forums where they claim, the content is all to easy and they are leaving. The Dev's seem content to create that new content, over and over, getting nowhere. Even in a game where most play in PvE, designed to be all inclusive, there is a clear stong effort to exclude players for any number of absurd reasons. One of the many reasons I'm fine with playing in groups but I try to play solo as much as the game will allow. Nobody in the game has a weapon or outfit or skin or whatever, that I have to own, for me to have fun. If we really need to show we are better than everyone else, why do it in a game where it impacts only a few people and doesn't really matter? I'm here for the fun and if I loot something good I'll show it off, but I personally know that anybody else in the game could have just as easily gotten that loot.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Sure, but the complaint of the OP is that he's seeing this 'new' behaviour. It's not new. It's also quite avoidable, as it ever has been.

> The point i was making was that, while the behaviour in itself is not new indeed, due to changes in the game it is now stronger, more visible and harder to avoid.

>

 

Stronger more visible, sure ... but the avoidance is the same because the mechanics to get a team is the same as it was when dungeons were released ... or is it even easier to avoid because LFG was before or after dungeons? Anyways, the fact remains that as much as the OP wants to imply things have gone downhill recently ... the truth is that it's always been this way.

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Sure, but the complaint of the OP is that he's seeing this 'new' behaviour. It's not new. It's also quite avoidable, as it ever has been.

> > The point i was making was that, while the behaviour in itself is not new indeed, due to changes in the game it is now stronger, more visible and harder to avoid.

> >

>

> Stronger more visible, sure ... but the avoidance is the same because the mechanics to get a team is the same as it was when dungeons were released ... or is it even easier to avoid because LFG was before or after dungeons? Anyways, the fact remains that as much as the OP wants to imply things have gone downhill recently ... the truth is that it's always been this way.

 

slightly easier to avoid now because we can also do a bit of filtering in the LFG

[Eramonster.2718]

Or start own group.

[Chichimec.9364]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> It's a bit mean and rude to label the whole community as toxic, when it's only a small percentage.

> That would be like labeling the entire forum population as criers or ranters, just because one read such a post.

 

Without getting into any of the other issues raised in this ongoing discussion, I think this was the most succinct and direct response to the OP. Accusing the whole community of being toxic because you didn't like the way you were treated in one situation seems a bit mean and rude to me too. At this point, I've been playing for almost 2 1/2 years. In that time I haven't noticed any appreciable ingame change in the community's attitudes. A lot of folks I've seen just go about their own business. Some folks go out of their way to be helpful. A few folks seem not so nice. I'd say it's about 80% positive or quiet, with about 20% being less civil. The really nasty types I've seen are only a handful though. I just checked my blocked list and there are 22 names on it. Given the amount of time I've been playing, that's not even 1 a month. To date I myself haven't seen anyone so bad that I felt I had to report them.

 

EDIT: I just did an age check on my account and it turns out I've played 5,314 hours over the last 908 days. (As an old, retired guy, playing for almost 6 hours a day is not a big deal to me.) So in actual practice, I've felt the need to block someone on the average of once every 41 days or about once every 241 hours of game play. That doesn't seem like a particularly toxic community to me. :)

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Adenin.5973" said:

> Pair the community that you get when you have such a game and introduce more QoL systems than pretty much any other western MMO out there (complete auto loot, insta teleports everywhere for barely any cost, death not mattering in any way, events/"quests" all autocompleteing in the background for you, tons of account shared stuff etc etc) and you indeed cultivate an audience that is incredibly bothered if they would have for example, to explain something during a fractal or even dungeon run to a noob.

I find this to be one of the most insightful comments I have read lately on this topic.

[avey.4201]

toxic balance, makes for toxic players

[Dayra.7405]

To many ex-WoW run now around in Tyria?

[Tiffany.8576]

If you want to absolutely confirm your KP, you can use a community made solution that pulls that info. from an API key and shows it so there can be no debate: https://killproof.me/

 

I'd say it was pretty rare that Fractal groups demand this level of proof, however. The only situation I've seen eyebrows raised at a KP ping is if someone pings KP and shows up on a strange/suboptimal build very obviously running poor traits or utilities, or they fail at basic stuff they should be doing as part of their role in the 1st fight or so.

[Faenar.8036]

Good ppl always exists, bad ppl always exists too. Nothing can change that.

 

Even when I see somewhat increasing numbers of trolls (mostly in WvW mode, but also increasing in PvE maps too), I still find GW2 playerbase one of the most helpfull and friendly communities, compared to playerbases in other MMOs.. You just stepped to the wrong place at the wrong time, because I think Fractal quick-runners and specialized Raid squads are the most toxic ones, even WAY more than WvW veterans. I suggest to create your own LFG party, and specificaly describe "non-meta or newbies welcome too" (Or search for these in LFG system). There are still thousands of normal non-toxic and friendly players around here.

 

About your statement "behaviour like this has to stop!" - It wouldnt stop. Never. Human competitive nature is deep inside our genome. Elitists will only allow other elitists being invited to their communities, and so on. Nothing and no one can change that.

 

I can elaborate another wall-of-text about it, but no one would probably be interested to read it anyway :D

 

TLDR: Simply ignore these toxic ppl, and enjoy your gameplay and try to find other players with nature similar to your own. Keep in mind that both toxic and normal ppl always exist in all MMOs, its just that the toxic ones can be somewhat more visible, because normal ppl are (usually) just quietly enjoying their gameplay (both alone or with their friends).

[WolfOwl.3968]

> @"Adenin.5973" said:

> The other part of the issue is imo that the GW2 community is one that is made up out of the laziest people of all major MMO communities. Partly due to the fact that the only ppl left playing are those that do not want a gear threadmill, or any other vertical progression system, or any relevant content, other than spoonfed one-time-only throw-away story content. Pair the community that you get when you have such a game and introduce more QoL systems than pretty much any other western MMO out there (complete auto loot, insta teleports everywhere for barely any cost, death not mattering in any way, events/"quests" all autocompleteing in the background for you, tons of account shared stuff etc etc) and you indeed cultivate an audience that is incredibly bothered if they would have for example, to explain something during a fractal or even dungeon run to a noob.

 

The odd thing is the QoL systems and lack of a gear treadmill should act to lessen the occurrences of elitism, not increase it. In other mmo's featuring the trinity and gear grind gearing often requires running the same content repeatedly for a particular drop or set of drops, so groups experienced in that particular instance can run it repeatedly in a short time to increase their chances for loot. That's not the case here, fractals and the like are run once for guaranteed rewards and the players move on to other things.

But I think the issue has a couple of main sources. One is the elitist mindset that take hold of some players once they've reached a certain plateau; i.e. "I only want to run with people of my caliber." The second is a frustration with pugs dealing with people unaccustomed to even a basic understanding of group content in this game. This can be attributed to world boss events where auto-attacking is enough to get players through at times. Basic things like stacking, boon sharing, or even traiting for group play doesn't really come into play. So with that you're not only teaching the particular mechanics of one fractal, but group play in general.

 

Still doesn't change the fact that elitism will happen regardless of any measures taken by the community or Anet, but ignoring it and creating your own group is not only an option, but an incredibly viable one.

 

[CyberneticRanger.9170]

Have noticed the change with a lot of the newer players. Not sure where they came from, or what their issues are, but they literally train mobs over lower level players that might just be staying out of the way from the mobs for a reason. Sat on a throne waiting for Megadestroyer and 5 players came by on their raptors, went up the spire I was on (Heart of Fire) with mobs, and see others on their Skyscales flapping overhead.

It's stupid. Without that nonsense I rarely would die, and knew there was a risk from mobs, which does not bother me. Have played at lower level characters in places that most would not, but also done so a couple years after beta for kicks. It is fun, and dangerous, and quite the challenge. And I WP on death. Comes with the risk. :) But being killed from fellow player's deliberate trains?? That's total BS.

 

Also noticed players train mobs to turrets during Shatterer events. Siege cannons do a heck of a lot of damage to the dragon. So when they get over-run, the siege cannons get destroyed. A decent amount of damage is lost. Engineers can be revived to make more mortars, but when a siege cannon goes down that's it - they cannot be repaired.

Is bad enough the east side siege cannons get taken out and hard to keep free, as the Shatterer events seem scripted to keep players away and those siege cannons become useless. A few years ago the east side did not get as inundated with mobs, shatters, and explosions like it does now.

 

Not much respect going on for Catmanders recently either. See fewer Catmander icons in PvE anymore. What happened to GW2?!?

 

There are a few decent players out there, but there are way too many toxic ones lately.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Sure, but the complaint of the OP is that he's seeing this 'new' behaviour. It's not new. It's also quite avoidable, as it ever has been.

> > The point i was making was that, while the behaviour in itself is not new indeed, due to changes in the game it is now stronger, more visible and harder to avoid.

> >

>

> Stronger more visible, sure ... but the avoidance is the same because the mechanics to get a team is the same as it was when dungeons were released ... or is it even easier to avoid because LFG was before or after dungeons? Anyways, the fact remains that as much as the OP wants to imply things have gone downhill recently ... the truth is that it's always been this way.

As i said, the groups that avoided this while doing the dungeons "paid" for the privilege of having a casual run with longer clear times. Same with mixing groups - if you were a player used to speedruns, that joined a group and found it to be a casual one, then the price you had to pay for remaining (and being civil) was a bit longer clear time. Same, again, with an unlabeled speedclear group that got one casual player - the price they had to pay for being civil and not kicking that person was just a slightly longer run. Longer, but still succesful.

 

Now, that the stakes are higher, the price for the privilege of having an "all welcome" run, or for being civil, is usually a wipe. Being toxic is now to players' advantage. Thus , many more people opt to behave just like that. Even those that during the golden days of dungeon running would have been among the nicest kind.

 

[Zok.4956]

> @"WolfOwl.3968" said:

> The odd thing is the QoL systems and lack of a gear treadmill should act to lessen the occurrences of elitism, not increase it.

 

A part of the core philosophy of GW2 is, that existing content and gear (after you reached level 80) should not be devalued by an increased max level or better gear for new content with higher level. Thats why legendary gear has no better stats than ascended and ascended has only a small stat increase compared to exotics.

 

With the exception of higher level fractals (required agony resistence) you can play every content with exotic gear and player skill (between good, bad and average player skill) has much more effect than the difference between exotic and ascended gear.

 

 

> @"WolfOwl.3968" said:

> In other mmo's featuring the trinity and gear grind gearing often requires running the same content repeatedly for a particular drop or set of drops, so groups experienced in that particular instance can run it repeatedly in a short time to increase their chances for loot.

 

In some other MMOs you have a gear grind and the gear acts as a "skill check" and gatekeeper to be allowed to play the "harder" content. And the difference in player-skill does not matter as much as the required gear. So, in those MMOs, the DPS difference between an average player with the required gear (and the game only allows players with the right gear to enter the instances) and a good player is not so extremely big as in GW2.

 

In GW2 the game/gear itself does not act as a "gatekeeper" for instanced content and little differences in player skill can have big differences in i.e. DPS (and other things).

And GW2 does not really teach players how to become a skilled/good player. Yes, someone can read skill/trait descriptions, but little changes in timing of rotation can have a bigger impact than the difference between exotics and ascended.

 

So, what some players see as "elitism" in instanced content is often a player behaviour that is a result also of the game design of GW2.

 

> @"WolfOwl.3968" said:

> But I think the issue has a couple of main sources. One is the elitist mindset that take hold of some players once they've reached a certain plateau; i.e. "I only want to run with people of my caliber."

 

This is not elitism but "freedom of choice". No one should be forced to do a training run for other players if he/she just wants to do a quick run for a daily.