I'm sorry but how is this acceptable?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Josiah.2967" said:

> > > > > Any DPS increase will make things better.

> > > >

> > > > Except it doesn't ... in fact, in the long term, it **never** has. Necro has received numerous DPS increases over the last 8 years ... are you better off like think you would be?

> > > Necro is in a much better place than in 2012. Dps for high-damage builds is not nearly as bad as it was. Barrier support is also a huge improvement that gives squads, especially PUGs, a valuable sustain option. Splits between competitive and PvE modes mean Arenanet has finally acknowledged the three modes are different.

> > >

> > > Necromancer's position amongst professions has drastically improved. It can improve more but I no longer feel ashamed of playing it like I did I 2013. That was truly embarrassing. The players who used Necro for anything more than a pack mule, craft mule, or afk farmer were hopelessly stupid or stubborn. Necro's elites are legitimate. They may not be balanced well enough because of core Necro but they are not non-competitive the way Necro was in 2012-2013.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Right ... that's all true ... yet here we are ... so how does anyone conclude DPS is a long term solution to making a class meta? It CAN'T be. Necro DPS would have to be absolutely broken for any PUG meta team to want it. Why does anyone think there is a path to that happening?

>

> Dps __can__ be increased using modifiers, adjusting scaling factors, or sacrificing something else. Reaper pays with shroud degeneration, though core is so bad in PvE that the cost for cleave was tiny. Scourge is similar in that it's "cost" in personal shroud sustain to gain a powerful hard-carry mechanic is not terribly large. Even Death Shoud itself has repeatedly been boosted in damage, utility and sustain.

>

> There __are__ things Arenanet can do to inch the profession closer to, if not top dps or top utility, somewhere nearer average in group PvE. In the almost-eight years Necromancer __has__ been improved a lot. Arenanet's design "policy" for Necro changed a lot after the first few miserable years when "we feel Necromancer is in a good place" had become a meme for Arenanet stubbornness.

>

> PvE (Defiance) is a different animal compared to WvW (stacking AoE) and PvP. I think they get that now and understand balancing must be done separately. Necro __is__ better off than I expected given how long it took Arenanet to admit Indomitable / Unshakable broke the profession in PvE.

 

The point here isn't if you can achieve it or not ... because that's just playing numbers on Anet's side. No argument there ... if Anet wants to give Necro more DPS, they can. My point is that they HAVEN'T ... and that simply can't be explained as an oversight anymore ... the game is MUCH too old and there is much noise made over this over the history.

 

The fact is the current state is a necro class design issue, it's NOT something fixed by a skills numbers adjustment. Dadnir's last few posts is a good summary ... so I won't rehash it.

 

ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

[Nimon.7840]

No buffs incoming. We can cut it

[Josiah.2967]

Scourge might be viable? Could tank reaper become a thing?

[Methuselah.4376]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

 

I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> >

> > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

>

> I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

 

I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > >

> > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> >

> > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

>

> I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

 

So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > >

> > > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> > >

> > > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

> >

> > I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

>

> So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

 

What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes based on the criteria they have ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta and justify unreasonable levels of DPS. Good try though.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> > > >

> > > > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

> > >

> > > I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

> >

> > So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

>

> What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

 

I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

That's an interesting POV ... I don't see a contradiction here. I've don't believe I've EVER said Anet's balance process is some completely random approach to just doing things. I don't believe I've EVER said Anet is balancing to player-made benchmarks either. I do believe that I've made it clear MANY times that Anet doesn't appear to be balancing to some level of equivalent DPS ... maybe you think Anet's statement and the small nerf to soulbeast qualifies as evidence to DPS equivalence over many classes ... I certainly do not.

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Josiah.2967" said:

> Scourge might be viable? Could tank reaper become a thing?

 

why? there isnt a single buff to scourge other than qol change back to how it was. the only buff might be condi reaper with well of darkness.

 

it feels like this is the worst patch they ever thought of

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"DraconusShade.4590" said:

> I tried to ask Obtena what the solution should be, but I received no concrete answer.

 

For the record, I have suggested a better path to fixing this many times. Ability to buff teams offensively is going to go much farther and be more likely than incredibly broken DPS buffs. It's easy to see this if you look at how Warrior is treated.

 

[Kodama.6453]

I don't understand that witch hunt for Obtena here. How I see it, people don't seem to understand what they are really trying to say here, which has 2 big points.

 

The first is that if Anet seems unwilling to buff reaper's dps, then this is probably not because of ignorance or spite, but because their measurements show them that buffing the reaper dps is not necessary (and maybe won't even help reaper all that much unless you buff reaper so much that it crowds out every other dps option).

The latest balance notes have shown that Anet seems to have a way to monitor the damage the classes are dealing globally (most likely also monitoring other parameters like healing, boon application, etc.).

 

And this is most likely a more objective way to evaluate the worth of some classes than relying on the benchmarks some players have achieved in optimal environments against an unmoving target that doesn't defend itself. So if Anet doesn't take action to buff the reaper dps, there might be a numbers based reason for it which they just don't show us.

 

Second big point: One big problem of the reaper is it's selfishness. As long as you don't buff reaper to such high levels that bringing them just outclasses everything else available, there is still not much reason to bring reapers, since other classes can bring more benefit for their team as a whole. Like how warriors are taken because they provide banners or rangers are taken because of their spirits and spotter.

 

Reaper doesn't really have something like this and Obtena's point is that if you want reaper to be competitive for dps slots in high end content, then it would be better to give them something that lets them give benefit for their whole team instead of giving it more selfish dps.

 

Not every class needs to bring the same level of dps. Because the classes are different and I think that Anet's measures might have shown them that they shouldn't grant reaper more dps. Because there are more factors to consider. For example, if their data shows them that reaper's also are less likely to land in the downstate over most other professions because of their shroud mechanic, then this is something they have to consider as well. If something is more likely to constantly apply it's dps, because it brings personal defense by default, why should it deal the same damage as other classes which have to play very carefully and need more support to stay on their feet?

 

Stop all bashing Obtena and actually try to understand the arguments made by them and discuss them in a civil manner, please.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"DraconusShade.4590" said:

> > I tried to ask Obtena what the solution should be, but I received no concrete answer.

>

> For the record, I have suggested a better path to fixing this many times. Ability to buff teams offensively is going to go much farther and be more likely than incredibly broken DPS buffs. It's easy to see this if you look at how Warrior is treated.

>

 

The issue is that the necromancer's thematic cut out this path of "buffing it's team" apart maybe for might and going further on might won't improve the necromancer's standing in PvE.

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Stop all bashing Obtena and actually try to understand the arguments made by them and discuss them in a civil manner, please.

 

The opposite is true as well.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"DraconusShade.4590" said:

> > > I tried to ask Obtena what the solution should be, but I received no concrete answer.

> >

> > For the record, I have suggested a better path to fixing this many times. Ability to buff teams offensively is going to go much farther and be more likely than incredibly broken DPS buffs. It's easy to see this if you look at how Warrior is treated.

> >

>

> The issue is that the necromancer's thematic cut out this path of "buffing it's team" apart maybe for might and going further on might won't improve the necromancer's standing in PvE.

 

I think that's a minor issue ... there isn't a reason to restrict ourselves to thinking only in terms of offensive team buffs through established boons. I mean, warrior banners don't give boons .. they buff stats. There are other skills that buff stats for teams as well. That's actually preferred IMO. No reason a necro can't buff stats as a team buffing skill to improve it's standing in PVE ... and it's still a more reasonable approach than a broken DPS buff.

 

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > > > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> > > > >

> > > > > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

> > > >

> > > > I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

> > >

> > > So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

> >

> > What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

>

> I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

>

>

 

This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it _could_ mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will **never** admit that!

 

About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

 

BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's **early** testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

[Methuselah.4376]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > > > > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

> > > >

> > > > So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

> > >

> > > What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

> >

> > I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

> >

> >

>

> This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it _could_ mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will **never** admit that!

>

> About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

>

> BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's **early** testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

 

33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

[Black Storm.6974]

Considering how dependant on RNG Reaper DPS currently is (on the current META build) cause it is in lack of critical chance, I’d generally consider the average DPS as the “Reaper DPS”.

 

Reaper DPS on golem was at 29600 (Snow Crows benchmark) before the 07/07/2020 balance patch.

[Black Storm.6974]

> @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > > > > > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

> > > > >

> > > > > So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

> > > >

> > > > What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

> > >

> > > I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it _could_ mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will **never** admit that!

> >

> > About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

> >

> > BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's **early** testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

>

> 33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

 

Unfortunately, usually in real fights that rotation would have “significantly” lower DPS (cause it is in serious lack of Life Force generation and people will take damage while in Shroud), not only compared to the DPS we can see in the video, but also compared to the average DPS.

 

There is no way it can become META for real fights, probably what is shown in that video is only an attempt to maximise the DPS on the idle golem.

[Methuselah.4376]

> @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > > > > > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

> > > > >

> > > > > So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

> > > >

> > > > What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

> > >

> > > I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it _could_ mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will **never** admit that!

> >

> > About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

> >

> > BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's **early** testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

>

> 33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

 

They managed to reach 34k! But ye it's very RNG dependent so would say average is 32k, which is 2.4k more than the previously expected average of 29.6k

[Black Storm.6974]

> @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > > > > > > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

> > > > >

> > > > > What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

> > > >

> > > > I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it _could_ mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will **never** admit that!

> > >

> > > About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

> > >

> > > BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's **early** testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

> >

> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

> >

> > 33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

>

> They managed to reach 34k! But ye it's very RNG dependent so would say average is 32k, which is 2.4k more than the previously expected average of 29.6k

 

Do you know how they managed to reach 34k? I should be sleeping but I think I’ll go back to test power Reaper :)

[Methuselah.4376]

> @"Black Storm.6974" said:

> > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > > > > > > > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

> > > > >

> > > > > I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it _could_ mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will **never** admit that!

> > > >

> > > > About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

> > > >

> > > > BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's **early** testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

> > >

> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

> > >

> > > 33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

> >

> > They managed to reach 34k! But ye it's very RNG dependent so would say average is 32k, which is 2.4k more than the previously expected average of 29.6k

>

> Do you know how they managed to reach 34k? I should be sleeping but I think I’ll go back to test power Reaper :)

 

As you said before, it is dependent on rng for out of Shroud attacks critting. They are hoping to pull higher numbers now if they managed to get good rng. Oh and on the 34k one they started off with horrible rng.

 

This is not the same guy, they just used this person's rotation with some minor tweaks (trying to avoid using GS3 >50%). Mind you, even in this video I linked, they got to 33.7k in the end.

[Methuselah.4376]

> @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > @"Black Storm.6974" said:

> > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > > > > > > > > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it _could_ mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will **never** admit that!

> > > > >

> > > > > About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

> > > > >

> > > > > BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's **early** testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

> > > >

> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

> > > >

> > > > 33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

> > >

> > > They managed to reach 34k! But ye it's very RNG dependent so would say average is 32k, which is 2.4k more than the previously expected average of 29.6k

> >

> > Do you know how they managed to reach 34k? I should be sleeping but I think I’ll go back to test power Reaper :)

>

> As you said before, it is dependent on rng for out of Shroud attacks critting. They are hoping to pull higher numbers now if they managed to get good rng. Oh and on the 34k one they started off with horrible rng.

>

>

> This is not the same guy, they just used this person's rotation with some minor tweaks (trying to avoid using GS3 >50%). Mind you, even in this video I linked, they got to 33.7k in the end.

 

Here we go, they posted it on Youtube. Do note that they ended up with very little LF as they were going for max damage. In a real raid scenario you would want to add in more LF generations in you rotation >50% as ticking damage would otherwise knock you out of shroud.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > @"Black Storm.6974" said:

> > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > > > > > > > > > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it _could_ mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will **never** admit that!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's **early** testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

> > > > >

> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

> > > > >

> > > > > 33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

> > > >

> > > > They managed to reach 34k! But ye it's very RNG dependent so would say average is 32k, which is 2.4k more than the previously expected average of 29.6k

> > >

> > > Do you know how they managed to reach 34k? I should be sleeping but I think I’ll go back to test power Reaper :)

> >

> > As you said before, it is dependent on rng for out of Shroud attacks critting. They are hoping to pull higher numbers now if they managed to get good rng. Oh and on the 34k one they started off with horrible rng.

> >

> >

> > This is not the same guy, they just used this person's rotation with some minor tweaks (trying to avoid using GS3 >50%). Mind you, even in this video I linked, they got to 33.7k in the end.

>

>

> Here we go, they posted it on Youtube. Do note that they ended up with very little LF as they were going for max damage. In a real raid scenario you would want to add in more LF generations in you rotation >50% as ticking damage would otherwise knock you out of shroud.

 

Yea, and now it's definitely impossible to take **any** damage in shroud anymore, if you want to max out your DPS! But still: almost 10% increase ... like I said before, not yet enough, but definitely not insignificant either!

[Black Storm.6974]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > @"Black Storm.6974" said:

> > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Methuselah.4376" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger: _Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be._

> > > > > > > > > > > > > So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was **obliterated**.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet **is** aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it _could_ mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will **never** admit that!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's **early** testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

> > > > >

> > > > > They managed to reach 34k! But ye it's very RNG dependent so would say average is 32k, which is 2.4k more than the previously expected average of 29.6k

> > > >

> > > > Do you know how they managed to reach 34k? I should be sleeping but I think I’ll go back to test power Reaper :)

> > >

> > > As you said before, it is dependent on rng for out of Shroud attacks critting. They are hoping to pull higher numbers now if they managed to get good rng. Oh and on the 34k one they started off with horrible rng.

> > >

> > >

> > > This is not the same guy, they just used this person's rotation with some minor tweaks (trying to avoid using GS3 >50%). Mind you, even in this video I linked, they got to 33.7k in the end.

> >

> >

> > Here we go, they posted it on Youtube. Do note that they ended up with very little LF as they were going for max damage. In a real raid scenario you would want to add in more LF generations in you rotation >50% as ticking damage would otherwise knock you out of shroud.

>

> Yea, and now it's definitely impossible to take **any** damage in shroud anymore, if you want to max out your DPS! But still: almost 10% increase ... like I said before, not yet enough, but definitely not insignificant either!

 

We are definitely in a better spot in Fractal, thanks to higher bursts with shorter cooldowns, and better Chill uptime. Also, we don’t have critical chance problems in Fractal.

 

In most Fractal encounters we can take Signets of Suffering (which in combination with Signets of Vampirism will also provide the best sustain, both passive and active if needed) instead of Awaken the Pain, with no DPS loss (probably even a small DPS increase in most encounters).

 

No DPS loss because fights are mostly a lot shorter and Shroud bursts (often performed when the enemy has the Exposed debuff) are more important. Often Shroud bursts will also be available after “invulnerability phases” (almost every boss require to rapidly burst, “pause” and burst again). There is not much out of Shroud fight in Fractal.

 

Gaining Life Force in Fractal is also much less of a problem.

[Kolsyrad.2807]

How is Scourge in PvE nowadays tho?

I am thinking about jumping back into GW2 again and I really wanna play Necro but don't like the melee Reaper :(.

I normally prefer to play casters in games and I remember when I played core condi necro was what scratched that itch for me while Ele didn't.

 

More I look into Necro the more depressed I get about it, damage seems so low with Scourge being even lower?