mortrialus.3062 Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > Your superior "work for your kill" perma bunker meta isn't saving the game mode and it's still dying. > Because you objectively thinks that it wasn't dying prepatch and it was enjoyable ? > Mean we should had a mota prepatch and after patch just for loling comparison. And you think megabalance saved it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > We already link vids about what old meta look like, now just let people get an opinion about what they prefer instead of spamming forum with "absolute truth" lol. > > > > > > > > Cherry-picked videos that even then fail to show what you want them to show. We know. > > > > > > Did you want me to go for another 4 pages of yes/no ? > > > > Idk, you could try having actual arguments, thatd help your case. > No problem. I will write it as long as you want. > Then at least write something useful. > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" : > > > "Ofc you can't link something that dont exit" => @"UNOwen.7132" 2020. When I say something about A vid I linked after. But somehow only people arguing against you have to prove something because you are the universal truth. > > > > Sure, I concede that it exists. Assuming you are that Nium guy. You know. > Where are yours ? It's fun talking about actual argument but if you can't prove you played carrying op class pre-patch, well at least give us your class played ratio. So we can see that you aren't another thief main like you wrote it while saying thief has the worst damage... > Argumentum ab auctoritatem. Logical fallacy, not an argument. In fact, it is an absence of an argument, and a concession. It basically says "I was wrong, but I am too proud to admit that". As for arguments, Ive had plenty of them. For the current one, why you have to look no further than the dancing at MOTA. As for the pre-patch, well I explained why high damage is good for the game, and then proved you wrong through contradiction. What more would you want, really. > > > Mesmer isn't that far under many builds. But from someone who think that rev sustain is fine I haven't much hope. > > Yes, thats why it was literally not played at all in the MOTA or seen at all in the leaderboards. Mesmer is *totally* fine. No its really far under all other builds. But hey, somebody should tell Misha he couldve played Mesmer in the MotA because some random kitten said that Mesmer is "totally fine". I doubt you believe this rubbish yourself. > Yeah it's not played in Mota, like DH wasn't played in At during HoT golden time but was over-present in leaderboard. ATs did not exist during HoTs golden time, so no class was played in them. It was played during the world championship though. By one team that placed sixth, but played it was. For that matter, DH was overrepresented on lower level ladder, but not high level ladder. > I already explain why it wasn't in mota. You havent. You thought of something that sounded like an explanation, but failed to notice that it was simply wrong. Your idea was that "they didnt play a high-risk class", but historically high-risk classes, when theyre good, are *exactly* what gets played, because the reward is just as high. For that matter, its not exactly like Mirage is high-risk. Its just really, *really* bad. > > > Your subjective opinion concern only you, I already see plethora of people in game forum trying to make their view as universal truth. When I look the ladderboard pre-patch I see 40% thieves top 20. Sure it was much better lol. > > > > You didnt. You saw as many thieves as you do now. Because thief is one of the few classes that havent changed much. But you saw all 9 classes, with multiple entries each, in the leaderboard. On the other hand, how many warriors and mesmers are in the top 100 now? Do we have the token 1 or 2 now, or is it still 0? > No I don't see 4 thief/game like it was. Funny how you fixate on just that one brief moment, and not the entirety before or after. I guess by that logic this meta is defined by 4-6 core necros every game, eh? > > > Pre-patch power mirage was viable, such a news, teach me with your high mesmer vision why we never saw it, even on leadderboard while now there is a least 1 top 100. This is factual data but you somehow can't accept it. > > > > We saw power core Mesmer, even in AT finals. Power Mirage wasnt played as much because it was honestly just outclassed. But we did also see a power mirage on the leaderboard. On the other hand, do tell me who that power mirage in the top 100 is. Because I doubt there is one. > Lol, it was a meme and wasn't pre-patch at all but way before. Last season around 70th. Uh, yeah it was pre-patch, and no, it wasnt a meme. It was as low on the list of viability as you can get, but it was viable. Unlike now. > > > I'm pretty dishonnest liking vids of me prepatch, can we see you now or you are too afraid everyone see your rating, builds or opponents ? > > > > Strawman. Nice. Guess being dishonest is just second nature to you. No, what was dishonest is that you linked a thief with 25 might stacks, said that he did 14k damage when he did 11k damage, and then acted as if that damage was the norm rather than the extreme exception. > And the said thief had a HUDGE setup to get this 25 might, and weakness application. Ho wait ... No, he just push 3 buttons. :D What ... what weakness? What are you even talking about. And youre right, he didnt have to do that setup, because the Mesmer did it for him. But spoiler: The thief cant get those 25 mights 99.99999999% of the time. Meaning that damage is an extreme outlier, and not the norm you desperately wanted it to be. > > > About bot, launching a rupt during a keyskill or bursting after a temporisation IS established or predictable pattern. > > > > > What does the bot do about rotations? What does it do when multiple players are around it? With builds it cant actually see or know? It can never be as good as a player. Well, not with the current level of technology at least. For that matter, it cant even handle switchups in rotations well. Prior to the patch the bots struggled, as people carefully timed their skills and had to setup whatever they did. Which meant a lot of variations in gameplay. Too much for a shoddily written bot to handle. Now that that is out of the window and people just use everything off cd, its much more predictable and as a result, much easier for the bot to handle. > You are saying that skill is about wining a fight in even number and now you come back about bot rotation ? hmm not logic. The second usage of "rotation" refers to damage rotation. But no, skill is when macro and micro interact together. If its just macro, then its low-skill, if its just micro, its less low-skill (because you cant be carried as easily by other people), but still low-skill. > "People carefully timed their skills before the patch", lmao, thanks for this sentence, you make my day. > Ok, amending the sentence: "Players *who werent awful* timed their skills before the patch". If you wanted to have *any* chance of winning, you timed skills, because if you didnt, you instantly lost. The funny thing is, you argued this yourself. But then tried to also argue the opposite because this point hurts you. But just to put it simple, you cant have high damage, strong defensive tools, and a spammy meta. Those 3 things together make about as much sense as cold fire. > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"PLS.4095" said: > > > > > > just because the old meta, which was high-skill and punished mistakes > > > > > > > > > > looooooool > > > > > UNOwen, the new Genius ! > > > > > > > > Im always amused by people who find the truth funny. Do they just find everything funny? Is the truth something they see so rarely they cant help but laugh when they see it? > > > > > > Oh, no no, we're amused by you and other poeple that believe that "old meta was high-skill" thingie, it's hilarious to say the least. > > > > So youre finding the truth funny. Im not sure why youre saying "no" and then reaffirm what Ive stated. Is this a weird roundabout way of doing the reverse of the "well yes, but actually no" meme? In that case, you need new material. > I find it pretty funny yeah too yeah. I mean, good for your local comedian. He can just read income reports and youd be laughing non-stop. > > > Thank you for giving me such entertainment with your biased posts, it's really fun to read them and others, though sadly I don't have enough popcorn. > > > > I guess if youre biased, any objective viewpoint seems biased to you. > I guess that people thinking they are objective seems to spam endless post on forums. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ If this was supposed to be a burn, you need new material. It doesnt even make sense. > > > You people have an akward belief that 'High damage' that was shoved through our throats was "intended and healthy for the game", which is a lie, because giving such big boost to damage/sustain to a lot of skills promoted spamming and cheese mentality into oblivion. > > > > Ah, the same nonsense as always. Lets dissect it, shall we? First the "giving such big boosts to damage/sustain". People like to say this a lot, but here is the funny thing. Thats not the case. If you look back at GW2s history, both damage and sustain were pretty much always about as high as pre-patch, just at different times. We had the dreadful Cele Ele/Engineer meta, which is basically like the current meta but at least with skill involved. Damage-wise, the D/P thief people complained about pre-patch was just pre-HoT thief, but significantly weaker. In fact, what is a lie is the belief that the damage we have now is "intended and healthy for the game." Its not. Quite the opposite, the damage right now is *by far* lower than it has ever been in the entire history of the game. Even pre-specialisation patch damage was way higher. > Just play the game, out of condi rev we aren't in a unkillable meta at all. Just play the game, we are. I already showed you the clip of people dancing because they couldnt be killed, didnt I? I made a slight error though. *Neither* of them was Rev. And we had Revs and Rangers and Engineers fighting each other for 7 minutes without dying. Even Reapers and Necros. > > Now, the second part. "Promoted spamming and cheese mentality into oblivion". Equally popular, equally wrong. One could look at gaming in general, seeing that across all genres and all metas, the spammy ones are inevitably the ones with low damage, while high damage games and metas never are spammy. But sure, lets entertain the extremely unlikely, but *theoretically* possible notion that GW2 is just a very unique exception. Lets look at it logically then. So, you argue that damage pre-patch was way too high. Sure, you could argue that. But then logically we should see the top players at the highest level always immediately die or kill, and we wouldnt see any longer fights. Of course, that didnt happen. Thats why you amend your argument to "Well defensive tools were around that let you counteract damage". Ok, that is also valid. > > > But with those 2 in minds, you argue that the game was "spammy". Failing to notice the *giant* contradiction there. If there were defensive tools that let you counteract offensive ones easily, then what would happen if you spammed? Well, easy, the enemy uses his defensive tools, you waste all of your damage, and he kills you on the crackback. Which however means that its not spammy, because spam is ineffective. Now, to someone who may be familiar with more games, this is not surprising. Spammy metas are always low-damage metas, where there is no reason to hold back or time skills. > Killing a guy by spamming 2 clics (with the possibility of spamming 5) or with 5 clics didn't make the 2 clics less brainless you know. I have to admit, your ability to look your own contradiction in the eye and see nothing wrong with it is impressive. You still argue that the meta was spammy, despite the fact that you already disproved that possibility yourself through contradiction. No, if you spammed 2 clicks, or 5, or 10, or whatever number, the opponent used his defense wisely, runs you out of steam, and kills you on the crackback. Trying to spam not only wasnt the optimal way to play like it is right now. Oh no, it was the only way to almost 100% ensure that you lose on the spot. > Not only the damage was too high but also the number of effects from many skills were way to high, which complety destroy other way to play. > Ah, a nice vague statement. Evokes a certain imagery without comitting to anything so you can amend it later. Well lets cut through that crap then, shall we? It didnt, because those vague "other ways" didnt exist. Classes with high and low number of effects existed and were meta. How complex or not, how many skills you had or didnt have, it didnt really matter. All that mattered was that you were effective. > > > True, it falsely made the game "fast paced", but in reality it dumbed down skill required to be effective, because every skill was hitting for a lot of damage, even defensive ones were overstacked with effects, which even more dumbed down combat. In my case, thanks to powercreep I've got worse compared to core, since I've stopped caring about a lot of stuff around me and even I was falling asleep from boredom while playing certain classes at any given time. > > > > If every skill hits for a lot of damage, and defensive cooldowns were very powerful, how does that dumb down skill? After all, that means you have to carefully navigate through their cooldowns while maximising usage of your cooldowns. That sounds very skillful, its no surprise of course, that *is* the standard of all skillful genres. MOBAs, Fighting Games, arena brawlers, and indeed even MMOs. > If every skills hits does a lot of damage and defensive cooldowns were very powerful, class specificity disapear and everyone end playing the same class. Give me another MMos with suposed good PvP were player die in 4 sec please, I'm pretty curious. Im impressed that you think class specificity didnt exist before the patch where it was wild, but now that every sidenoder is "unkillable build using knockback", suddenly its better? But no, thats of course nonsense. Even if every build did high damage (which already not the case, you had support builds like firebrand, bunker builds like prot holo, utility builds and so on), *how* they do the damage, and *how* they defend themselves is the key aspect. Ah-ah-ah. Leading question. Lets rephrase it to be correctly. "Give me another MMos with suposed good PvP were player, *if they seriously mess up and fail to use any of their defenses, can* die in 4 sec please". There we go, thats the correct question. And that correct question is easy to answer. WoW (ever seen Rogue?) BDO (ever seen *literally any of their classes*?), ESO (Multiple classes, Nightblade at the very least), Albion Online (A lot of them again), Blade and Soul (you get the gist), and so on. In fact, let me ask the simple counter-question. What other good MMO PvP can you think off where you can make multiple mistakes, fail to use your defenses at all, and still not die? Because as far as I can tell, across all the big and medium ones, no such game exists. > > > Another thing, this game is not Osu! or Muse Dash or any high-reaction time required game, it's a MMORPG, meaning internet connection is important factor in the outcome of battles as well. Before big patch there were instances when you could go 100-0 from stealth before enemy model even rendered on the screen, high burst from stealth still happens, but not to this degree. > > > > Uh, you do know that almost all high-reaction games are online multiplayer, right? CS:GO, any fighting game, League, etc. Ping will always suck, you shouldnt dumb down and lower the skill of your game just to make sure that even those who have to play with major delay are at no disadvantage at all. On a sidenote, you still need low ping sometimes, for the one exciting and skillful thing that happens in games. Interrupting glyphs. Yeah its a bad sign when *that* is the highlight of the MOTA. > Which aren't MMo, If I want this type of gameplay I go to theses games. That was not your argument. Your argument was "internet connection is important factor in the outcome of battles as well.". That is true for *all* online PvP games. It is still no excuse to dumb down the game to allow players with delay to have no disadvantage. > > > Another thingie: High Damage Skill = Big Shiny Animation Effect + Cast time(atleast >1s) = minimum 10~20s cd; otherwise if high damage skills have almost none animatio n or it's below 1s cast time, it's cooldown should be minimum of 40s atleast. You should work for your kill, it shouldn't be given for free because you facerolled on keyboard like that was the case on pre-balance. > > > > Except that *wasnt* the case on pre-balance. If you facerolled on your keyboard the enemy 100% of the time lived, and then you 100% of the time died. You *never* got any kills for free unless the enemy was terrible. You had to work for your kill. Unlike right now, where the only time you get a kill is when youre outnumbering them, which you obviously didnt work for. Its also funny that you think high cooldowns improves the game in any way. Here is the thing: Increasing cooldown doesnt make the game more interesting or tactical, it just means there are larger periods of time where youre just waiting for cooldowns while slapping them with autos. > Lol, Go back to the vid, see the "hard work" to get kill. It's just target, count the evade, burst then switch to next target should the burst fail or not. Such fun. Are you talking about when Sindrener outnumbers people? Because outnumbering will always have that aspect, its kinda the point. But go back and look at 1v1s around that time, and you will see that the people who faceroll die every single time, and those who time their skills, and set up their attacks always win. That is what high skill gameplay looks like. > > > P.S. Currently sustain and few outliners need a shaves here and there. > > > > As I have explained, you will have to keep shaving healing everywhere until the meta goes from low-skill as it is right now, to *extremely* low-skill, as everyone just swaps to instant or near-instant cast skills to spam at the enemy because the damage will stick. It aint the solution. What we need is more damage. Right now damage is far lower than it has ever been in the games history, and with the current meta, we see why the damage was always higher before, because this meta is just Cele Ele meta, but way worse. > The meta was carrying and lowskill. > That is not an argument, that is an assessment. An assessment that is wrong. The *current* meta is carrying and low-skill. The old meta was high-skill, and if you didnt have your gameplay down pat, you would die. Something you yourself should know quite well. > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > Your superior "work for your kill" perma bunker meta isn't saving the game mode and it's still dying. > Because you objectively thinks that it wasn't dying prepatch and it was enjoyable ? Whether it was dying or not pre-patch, fact is the rate of decay accelerated. So yeah, clearly people thought it was way more enjoyable. Not surprising given the outcome of this vote. > Mean we should had a mota prepatch and after patch just for loling comparison. And what exactly would you have tried to learn from that? Its a tournament, by definition its not going to be able to say anything about population. Sure, we wouldve seen the massive gap between the old high-skill meta and the current low-skill meta, and definitely wouldnt have seen the most skillful thing in a game be synchronised dancing, but something tells me that *that* isnt what you wouldve wanted to see. 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viquing.8254 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > Your superior "work for your kill" perma bunker meta isn't saving the game mode and it's still dying. > > Because you objectively thinks that it wasn't dying prepatch and it was enjoyable ? > > Mean we should had a mota prepatch and after patch just for loling comparison. > > And you think megabalance saved it? By changing some gameplay we had for ages yeah. Mean even on a underepresented class with one dodge meme I'm having more fun than with 2 dodges passive perma kitting old mirage. > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" : > > > > "Ofc you can't link something that dont exit" => @"UNOwen.7132" 2020. When I say something about A vid I linked after. But somehow only people arguing against you have to prove something because you are the universal truth. > > > > > > Sure, I concede that it exists. Assuming you are that Nium guy. You know. > > Where are yours ? It's fun talking about actual argument but if you can't prove you played carrying op class pre-patch, well at least give us your class played ratio. So we can see that you aren't another thief main like you wrote it while saying thief has the worst damage... > > > > Argumentum ab auctoritatem. Logical fallacy, not an argument. In fact, it is an absence of an argument, and a concession. It basically says "I was wrong, but I am too proud to admit that". ? What the fuck are you talking about ? Why is it so hard showing us you don't main thief ? > As for arguments, Ive had plenty of them. For the current one, why you have to look no further than the dancing at MOTA. As for the pre-patch, well I explained why high damage is good for the game, and then proved you wrong through contradiction. What more would you want, really. And I already explained why it wasn't. > > > > Mesmer isn't that far under many builds. But from someone who think that rev sustain is fine I haven't much hope. > > > Yes, thats why it was literally not played at all in the MOTA or seen at all in the leaderboards. Mesmer is *totally* fine. No its really far under all other builds. But hey, somebody should tell Misha he couldve played Mesmer in the MotA because some random kitten said that Mesmer is "totally fine". I doubt you believe this rubbish yourself. > > Yeah it's not played in Mota, like DH wasn't played in At during HoT golden time but was over-present in leaderboard. > > ATs did not exist during HoTs golden time, so no class was played in them. It was played during the world championship though. By one team that placed sixth, but played it was. For that matter, DH was overrepresented on lower level ladder, but not high level ladder. Even high ladder was filled of them. Again one more tunnel visionning or you weren't at this lecel I dunno. > > I already explain why it wasn't in mota. > > You havent. You thought of something that sounded like an explanation, but failed to notice that it was simply wrong. Your idea was that "they didnt play a high-risk class", but historically high-risk classes, when theyre good, are *exactly* what gets played, because the reward is just as high. For that matter, its not exactly like Mirage is high-risk. Its just really, *really* bad. Now question : is it better to play bad but fun class than passive not interacting semi viable class ? > > > > Your subjective opinion concern only you, I already see plethora of people in game forum trying to make their view as universal truth. When I look the ladderboard pre-patch I see 40% thieves top 20. Sure it was much better lol. > > > > > > You didnt. You saw as many thieves as you do now. Because thief is one of the few classes that havent changed much. But you saw all 9 classes, with multiple entries each, in the leaderboard. On the other hand, how many warriors and mesmers are in the top 100 now? Do we have the token 1 or 2 now, or is it still 0? > > No I don't see 4 thief/game like it was. > > Funny how you fixate on just that one brief moment, and not the entirety before or after. I guess by that logic this meta is defined by 4-6 core necros every game, eh? You state that I see same number of thieves than preptach. It's false. And I neither see 4 core nec every game. Probably rank differences. > > > > Pre-patch power mirage was viable, such a news, teach me with your high mesmer vision why we never saw it, even on leadderboard while now there is a least 1 top 100. This is factual data but you somehow can't accept it. > > > > > > We saw power core Mesmer, even in AT finals. Power Mirage wasnt played as much because it was honestly just outclassed. But we did also see a power mirage on the leaderboard. On the other hand, do tell me who that power mirage in the top 100 is. Because I doubt there is one. > > Lol, it was a meme and wasn't pre-patch at all but way before. Last season around 70th. > > Uh, yeah it was pre-patch, and no, it wasnt a meme. It was as low on the list of viability as you can get, but it was viable. Unlike now. Give me his name then. > > > > I'm pretty dishonnest liking vids of me prepatch, can we see you now or you are too afraid everyone see your rating, builds or opponents ? > > > > > > Strawman. Nice. Guess being dishonest is just second nature to you. No, what was dishonest is that you linked a thief with 25 might stacks, said that he did 14k damage when he did 11k damage, and then acted as if that damage was the norm rather than the extreme exception. > > And the said thief had a HUDGE setup to get this 25 might, and weakness application. Ho wait ... No, he just push 3 buttons. :D > > What ... what weakness? What are you even talking about. And youre right, he didnt have to do that setup, because the Mesmer did it for him. But spoiler: The thief cant get those 25 mights 99.99999999% of the time. Meaning that damage is an extreme outlier, and not the norm you desperately wanted it to be. So you have someone having to buid a setup then a classe came and with 3 clics nullify this setup. WOW what a highskull game. Let's all play no setup full of mobility and damage class like it was then. > > > > About bot, launching a rupt during a keyskill or bursting after a temporisation IS established or predictable pattern. > > > > > > > What does the bot do about rotations? What does it do when multiple players are around it? With builds it cant actually see or know? It can never be as good as a player. Well, not with the current level of technology at least. For that matter, it cant even handle switchups in rotations well. Prior to the patch the bots struggled, as people carefully timed their skills and had to setup whatever they did. Which meant a lot of variations in gameplay. Too much for a shoddily written bot to handle. Now that that is out of the window and people just use everything off cd, its much more predictable and as a result, much easier for the bot to handle. > > You are saying that skill is about wining a fight in even number and now you come back about bot rotation ? hmm not logic. > > The second usage of "rotation" refers to damage rotation. But no, skill is when macro and micro interact together. If its just macro, then its low-skill, if its just micro, its less low-skill (because you cant be carried as easily by other people), but still low-skill. Then you should be happy than macro gain purpose even on slow class. > > "People carefully timed their skills before the patch", lmao, thanks for this sentence, you make my day. > > > > Ok, amending the sentence: "Players *who werent awful* timed their skills before the patch". If you wanted to have *any* chance of winning, you timed skills, because if you didnt, you instantly lost. The funny thing is, you argued this yourself. But then tried to also argue the opposite because this point hurts you. But just to put it simple, you cant have high damage, strong defensive tools, and a spammy meta. Those 3 things together make about as much sense as cold fire. In the best case you had to concentrate 10 sec but we coma back again with some players concentration issues. > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"PLS.4095" said: > > > > > > > just because the old meta, which was high-skill and punished mistakes > > > > > > > > > > > > looooooool > > > > > > UNOwen, the new Genius ! > > > > > > > > > > Im always amused by people who find the truth funny. Do they just find everything funny? Is the truth something they see so rarely they cant help but laugh when they see it? > > > > > > > > Oh, no no, we're amused by you and other poeple that believe that "old meta was high-skill" thingie, it's hilarious to say the least. > > > > > > So youre finding the truth funny. Im not sure why youre saying "no" and then reaffirm what Ive stated. Is this a weird roundabout way of doing the reverse of the "well yes, but actually no" meme? In that case, you need new material. > > I find it pretty funny yeah too yeah. > > I mean, good for your local comedian. He can just read income reports and youd be laughing non-stop. No you are at a way higher comic level. Dunno what work you do but you shoukd consider reconverting. > > > > Thank you for giving me such entertainment with your biased posts, it's really fun to read them and others, though sadly I don't have enough popcorn. > > > > > > I guess if youre biased, any objective viewpoint seems biased to you. > > I guess that people thinking they are objective seems to spam endless post on forums. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > If this was supposed to be a burn, you need new material. It doesnt even make sense. What if I'm objective and you are biased like your super sentence argument was ? > > > > You people have an akward belief that 'High damage' that was shoved through our throats was "intended and healthy for the game", which is a lie, because giving such big boost to damage/sustain to a lot of skills promoted spamming and cheese mentality into oblivion. > > > > > > Ah, the same nonsense as always. Lets dissect it, shall we? First the "giving such big boosts to damage/sustain". People like to say this a lot, but here is the funny thing. Thats not the case. If you look back at GW2s history, both damage and sustain were pretty much always about as high as pre-patch, just at different times. We had the dreadful Cele Ele/Engineer meta, which is basically like the current meta but at least with skill involved. Damage-wise, the D/P thief people complained about pre-patch was just pre-HoT thief, but significantly weaker. In fact, what is a lie is the belief that the damage we have now is "intended and healthy for the game." Its not. Quite the opposite, the damage right now is *by far* lower than it has ever been in the entire history of the game. Even pre-specialisation patch damage was way higher. > > Just play the game, out of condi rev we aren't in a unkillable meta at all. > > Just play the game, we are. I already showed you the clip of people dancing because they couldnt be killed, didnt I? I made a slight error though. *Neither* of them was Rev. And we had Revs and Rangers and Engineers fighting each other for 7 minutes without dying. Even Reapers and Necros. No you aren't plating the game, take a screenshot of game played this season and stop lying please. > > > Now, the second part. "Promoted spamming and cheese mentality into oblivion". Equally popular, equally wrong. One could look at gaming in general, seeing that across all genres and all metas, the spammy ones are inevitably the ones with low damage, while high damage games and metas never are spammy. But sure, lets entertain the extremely unlikely, but *theoretically* possible notion that GW2 is just a very unique exception. Lets look at it logically then. So, you argue that damage pre-patch was way too high. Sure, you could argue that. But then logically we should see the top players at the highest level always immediately die or kill, and we wouldnt see any longer fights. Of course, that didnt happen. Thats why you amend your argument to "Well defensive tools were around that let you counteract damage". Ok, that is also valid. > > > > > But with those 2 in minds, you argue that the game was "spammy". Failing to notice the *giant* contradiction there. If there were defensive tools that let you counteract offensive ones easily, then what would happen if you spammed? Well, easy, the enemy uses his defensive tools, you waste all of your damage, and he kills you on the crackback. Which however means that its not spammy, because spam is ineffective. Now, to someone who may be familiar with more games, this is not surprising. Spammy metas are always low-damage metas, where there is no reason to hold back or time skills. > > Killing a guy by spamming 2 clics (with the possibility of spamming 5) or with 5 clics didn't make the 2 clics less brainless you know. > > I have to admit, your ability to look your own contradiction in the eye and see nothing wrong with it is impressive. You still argue that the meta was spammy, despite the fact that you already disproved that possibility yourself through contradiction. No, if you spammed 2 clicks, or 5, or 10, or whatever number, the opponent used his defense wisely, runs you out of steam, and kills you on the crackback. Trying to spam not only wasnt the optimal way to play like it is right now. Oh no, it was the only way to almost 100% ensure that you lose on the spot. If you spam right now you didn't put pressure. If ouvspam before patch you FORCE opponent to burn all his defensive skills. If you had more skills than him you won. > > Not only the damage was too high but also the number of effects from many skills were way to high, which complety destroy other way to play. > > > > Ah, a nice vague statement. Evokes a certain imagery without comitting to anything so you can amend it later. Well lets cut through that kitten then, shall we? It didnt, because those vague "other ways" didnt exist. Classes with high and low number of effects existed and were meta. How complex or not, how many skills you had or didnt have, it didnt really matter. All that mattered was that you were effective. You should stop playing op class prepatch. > > > > True, it falsely made the game "fast paced", but in reality it dumbed down skill required to be effective, because every skill was hitting for a lot of damage, even defensive ones were overstacked with effects, which even more dumbed down combat. In my case, thanks to powercreep I've got worse compared to core, since I've stopped caring about a lot of stuff around me and even I was falling asleep from boredom while playing certain classes at any given time. > > > > > > If every skill hits for a lot of damage, and defensive cooldowns were very powerful, how does that dumb down skill? After all, that means you have to carefully navigate through their cooldowns while maximising usage of your cooldowns. That sounds very skillful, its no surprise of course, that *is* the standard of all skillful genres. MOBAs, Fighting Games, arena brawlers, and indeed even MMOs. > > If every skills hits does a lot of damage and defensive cooldowns were very powerful, class specificity disapear and everyone end playing the same class. Give me another MMos with suposed good PvP were player die in 4 sec please, I'm pretty curious. > > Im impressed that you think class specificity didnt exist before the patch where it was wild, but now that every sidenoder is "unkillable build using knockback", suddenly its better? But no, thats of course nonsense. Even if every build did high damage (which already not the case, you had support builds like firebrand, bunker builds like prot holo, utility builds and so on), *how* they do the damage, and *how* they defend themselves is the key aspect. Which class particularity ? Everyone was bursting. If you are talking about colours effect well I'm sad to explain to you that a pink cheesy burst or blue cheesy burst remain a cheesy burst. > Ah-ah-ah. Leading question. Lets rephrase it to be correctly. "Give me another MMos with suposed good PvP were player, *if they seriously mess up and fail to use any of their defenses, can* die in 4 sec please". There we go, thats the correct question. And that correct question is easy to answer. WoW (ever seen Rogue?) BDO (ever seen *literally any of their classes*?), ESO (Multiple classes, Nightblade at the very least), Albion Online (A lot of them again), Blade and Soul (you get the gist), and so on. In fact, let me ask the simple counter-question. What other good MMO PvP can you think off where you can make multiple mistakes, fail to use your defenses at all, and still not die? Because as far as I can tell, across all the big and medium ones, no such game exists. LMAO. Are you serious ? Wow is only a op class rotation every patch on top of carrying gear. Their cheesy arena and balance is one of the main reason I stop playing their game. BDO is a p2w or no life farming game is you want to perfom in high level PvP. Other are basically at the same activities than gw2, even worst. And on top of that on thoses game, even with the same gear/farming level, you can't end a fight on 5 sec. > > > > Another thing, this game is not Osu! or Muse Dash or any high-reaction time required game, it's a MMORPG, meaning internet connection is important factor in the outcome of battles as well. Before big patch there were instances when you could go 100-0 from stealth before enemy model even rendered on the screen, high burst from stealth still happens, but not to this degree. > > > > > > Uh, you do know that almost all high-reaction games are online multiplayer, right? CS:GO, any fighting game, League, etc. Ping will always suck, you shouldnt dumb down and lower the skill of your game just to make sure that even those who have to play with major delay are at no disadvantage at all. On a sidenote, you still need low ping sometimes, for the one exciting and skillful thing that happens in games. Interrupting glyphs. Yeah its a bad sign when *that* is the highlight of the MOTA. > > Which aren't MMo, If I want this type of gameplay I go to theses games. > > That was not your argument. Your argument was "internet connection is important factor in the outcome of battles as well.". That is true for *all* online PvP games. It is still no excuse to dumb down the game to allow players with delay to have no disadvantage. What the fuck are you talking about. Thoses game aren't mmo it's a fact. > > > > Another thingie: High Damage Skill = Big Shiny Animation Effect + Cast time(atleast >1s) = minimum 10~20s cd; otherwise if high damage skills have almost none animatio n or it's below 1s cast time, it's cooldown should be minimum of 40s atleast. You should work for your kill, it shouldn't be given for free because you facerolled on keyboard like that was the case on pre-balance. > > > > > > Except that *wasnt* the case on pre-balance. If you facerolled on your keyboard the enemy 100% of the time lived, and then you 100% of the time died. You *never* got any kills for free unless the enemy was terrible. You had to work for your kill. Unlike right now, where the only time you get a kill is when youre outnumbering them, which you obviously didnt work for. Its also funny that you think high cooldowns improves the game in any way. Here is the thing: Increasing cooldown doesnt make the game more interesting or tactical, it just means there are larger periods of time where youre just waiting for cooldowns while slapping them with autos. > > Lol, Go back to the vid, see the "hard work" to get kill. It's just target, count the evade, burst then switch to next target should the burst fail or not. Such fun. > > Are you talking about when Sindrener outnumbers people? Because outnumbering will always have that aspect, its kinda the point. But go back and look at 1v1s around that time, and you will see that the people who faceroll die every single time, and those who time their skills, and set up their attacks always win. That is what high skill gameplay looks like. Yeah such high skill counting a block or an evade before bursting. Mean not even about him but that how can be resumed our high skill. > > > > P.S. Currently sustain and few outliners need a shaves here and there. > > > > > > As I have explained, you will have to keep shaving healing everywhere until the meta goes from low-skill as it is right now, to *extremely* low-skill, as everyone just swaps to instant or near-instant cast skills to spam at the enemy because the damage will stick. It aint the solution. What we need is more damage. Right now damage is far lower than it has ever been in the games history, and with the current meta, we see why the damage was always higher before, because this meta is just Cele Ele meta, but way worse. > > The meta was carrying and lowskill. > > > > That is not an argument, that is an assessment. An assessment that is wrong. The *current* meta is carrying and low-skill. The old meta was high-skill, and if you didnt have your gameplay down pat, you would die. Something you yourself should know quite well. You just had to have more tools in your class that why some were overplayed. Now you still have this on few class but at last you can play, not only kitting on safe spot. > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > Your superior "work for your kill" perma bunker meta isn't saving the game mode and it's still dying. > > Because you objectively thinks that it wasn't dying prepatch and it was enjoyable ? > > Whether it was dying or not pre-patch, fact is the rate of decay accelerated. So yeah, clearly people thought it was way more enjoyable. Not surprising given the outcome of this vote. It don't acceleteted, it follow his usual decreasing curve. > > Mean we should had a mota prepatch and after patch just for loling comparison. > > And what exactly would you have tried to learn from that? Its a tournament, by definition its not going to be able to say anything about population. Sure, we wouldve seen the massive gap between the old high-skill meta and the current low-skill meta, and definitely wouldnt have seen the most skillful thing in a game be synchronised dancing, but something tells me that *that* isnt what you wouldve wanted to see. Did you just write that the argument you spam "look at mota " isn't representative of the population like I write it to you ? Nice, another progress. We could probably do it in more 6 pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > Your superior "work for your kill" perma bunker meta isn't saving the game mode and it's still dying. > > > Because you objectively thinks that it wasn't dying prepatch and it was enjoyable ? > > > Mean we should had a mota prepatch and after patch just for loling comparison. > > > > And you think megabalance saved it? > > By changing some gameplay we had for ages yeah. You know, repeating something thats already been debunked is not a good look. Yes, its the "same gameplay we had for ages", except for just 2 months prior where the entire meta was radically different. And then 3 months. And so on. Instead, we now have had the same gameplay for, what, 4 months? With no change in sight. > Mean even on a underepresented class with one dodge meme I'm having more fun than with 2 dodges passive perma kitting old mirage. > And you couldve played that built pre-patch and it wouldnt have been unviable. > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" : > > > > > "Ofc you can't link something that dont exit" => @"UNOwen.7132" 2020. When I say something about A vid I linked after. But somehow only people arguing against you have to prove something because you are the universal truth. > > > > > > > > Sure, I concede that it exists. Assuming you are that Nium guy. You know. > > > Where are yours ? It's fun talking about actual argument but if you can't prove you played carrying op class pre-patch, well at least give us your class played ratio. So we can see that you aren't another thief main like you wrote it while saying thief has the worst damage... > > > > > > > Argumentum ab auctoritatem. Logical fallacy, not an argument. In fact, it is an absence of an argument, and a concession. It basically says "I was wrong, but I am too proud to admit that". > ? What the kitten are you talking about ? That youre using a logical fallacy since you lack an argument. > Why is it so hard showing us you don't main thief ? Its not hard. But its completely irrelevant. An attempt to sidetrack from your lack of argument. > > As for arguments, Ive had plenty of them. For the current one, why you have to look no further than the dancing at MOTA. As for the pre-patch, well I explained why high damage is good for the game, and then proved you wrong through contradiction. What more would you want, really. > And I already explained why it wasn't. Actually, you didnt. Not surprising given that you cant, but, your closest argument was, what, that it "made the game spammy?". Problem is, thats a direct contradiction to high damage. So the reason you claimed high damage is bad is something that high damage makes impossible. Whoops? > > > > > Mesmer isn't that far under many builds. But from someone who think that rev sustain is fine I haven't much hope. > > > > Yes, thats why it was literally not played at all in the MOTA or seen at all in the leaderboards. Mesmer is *totally* fine. No its really far under all other builds. But hey, somebody should tell Misha he couldve played Mesmer in the MotA because some random kitten said that Mesmer is "totally fine". I doubt you believe this rubbish yourself. > > > Yeah it's not played in Mota, like DH wasn't played in At during HoT golden time but was over-present in leaderboard. > > > > ATs did not exist during HoTs golden time, so no class was played in them. It was played during the world championship though. By one team that placed sixth, but played it was. For that matter, DH was overrepresented on lower level ladder, but not high level ladder. > Even high ladder was filled of them. Again one more tunnel visionning or you weren't at this lecel I dunno. Was it now? Lets take a look at Sindreners [first]( ) video in his channel. Lets see. First game has one. Second game has a core guardian. Third game had no guardian. Fourth game had no guardian. Fifth game had no guardian. Sixth game had one. Seventh game had no guardian. Oh but one is no sample size, lets also look at [this]( ) one. Lots of games, so I will summarise, but thankfully its easy. 11 games, 0 dragonhunters. Across 18 games, 2 Dragonhunters. So much for "even high ladder was filled with them". Thats less than we even had in the world championship. > > > I already explain why it wasn't in mota. > > > > You havent. You thought of something that sounded like an explanation, but failed to notice that it was simply wrong. Your idea was that "they didnt play a high-risk class", but historically high-risk classes, when theyre good, are *exactly* what gets played, because the reward is just as high. For that matter, its not exactly like Mirage is high-risk. Its just really, *really* bad. > Now question : is it better to play bad but fun class than passive not interacting semi viable class ? At last you admit Mesmer is bad. Here is my counterpoint: Is it better to play a bad but fun class than the same fun class, but its actually semi-viable? Yeah, didnt think so. > > > > > Your subjective opinion concern only you, I already see plethora of people in game forum trying to make their view as universal truth. When I look the ladderboard pre-patch I see 40% thieves top 20. Sure it was much better lol. > > > > > > > > You didnt. You saw as many thieves as you do now. Because thief is one of the few classes that havent changed much. But you saw all 9 classes, with multiple entries each, in the leaderboard. On the other hand, how many warriors and mesmers are in the top 100 now? Do we have the token 1 or 2 now, or is it still 0? > > > No I don't see 4 thief/game like it was. > > > > Funny how you fixate on just that one brief moment, and not the entirety before or after. I guess by that logic this meta is defined by 4-6 core necros every game, eh? > You state that I see same number of thieves than preptach. It's false. And I neither see 4 core nec every game. Probably rank differences. "Pre-patch" is a long period of time, its not just a single moment frozen. By that logic, I could also use a single frozen moment to describe post-patch. And I chose the one where we had 4+ core necros every game. > > > > > Pre-patch power mirage was viable, such a news, teach me with your high mesmer vision why we never saw it, even on leadderboard while now there is a least 1 top 100. This is factual data but you somehow can't accept it. > > > > > > > > We saw power core Mesmer, even in AT finals. Power Mirage wasnt played as much because it was honestly just outclassed. But we did also see a power mirage on the leaderboard. On the other hand, do tell me who that power mirage in the top 100 is. Because I doubt there is one. > > > Lol, it was a meme and wasn't pre-patch at all but way before. Last season around 70th. > > > > Uh, yeah it was pre-patch, and no, it wasnt a meme. It was as low on the list of viability as you can get, but it was viable. Unlike now. > Give me his name then. > [Here]( ). Its a name you should be familiar with. The same person who didnt take Mesmer because it sucks, played power Mes in a MAT. > > > > > I'm pretty dishonnest liking vids of me prepatch, can we see you now or you are too afraid everyone see your rating, builds or opponents ? > > > > > > > > Strawman. Nice. Guess being dishonest is just second nature to you. No, what was dishonest is that you linked a thief with 25 might stacks, said that he did 14k damage when he did 11k damage, and then acted as if that damage was the norm rather than the extreme exception. > > > And the said thief had a HUDGE setup to get this 25 might, and weakness application. Ho wait ... No, he just push 3 buttons. :D > > > > What ... what weakness? What are you even talking about. And youre right, he didnt have to do that setup, because the Mesmer did it for him. But spoiler: The thief cant get those 25 mights 99.99999999% of the time. Meaning that damage is an extreme outlier, and not the norm you desperately wanted it to be. > So you have someone having to buid a setup then a classe came and with 3 clics nullify this setup. WOW what a highskull game. Let's all play no setup full of mobility and damage class like it was then. Stacking up might when you know the thief is there who has boonrip is a misplay. That was punishing a major misplay. The high-skill element was the fact that a mistake was sufficiently punished. Though that being said, it likely didnt matter. Because it was a +1. But then again, +1s havent really changed, now have they? What has changed are 1v1s. And those went from timing and setup, and general high-skill, to synchronised dancing. > > > > > About bot, launching a rupt during a keyskill or bursting after a temporisation IS established or predictable pattern. > > > > > > > > > What does the bot do about rotations? What does it do when multiple players are around it? With builds it cant actually see or know? It can never be as good as a player. Well, not with the current level of technology at least. For that matter, it cant even handle switchups in rotations well. Prior to the patch the bots struggled, as people carefully timed their skills and had to setup whatever they did. Which meant a lot of variations in gameplay. Too much for a shoddily written bot to handle. Now that that is out of the window and people just use everything off cd, its much more predictable and as a result, much easier for the bot to handle. > > > You are saying that skill is about wining a fight in even number and now you come back about bot rotation ? hmm not logic. > > > > The second usage of "rotation" refers to damage rotation. But no, skill is when macro and micro interact together. If its just macro, then its low-skill, if its just micro, its less low-skill (because you cant be carried as easily by other people), but still low-skill. > Then you should be happy than macro gain purpose even on slow class. Macro already had purpose before the patch. As I said, its high-skill when macro *and* micro mattered. Pre-patch, they both did. Post-patch, only macro matters. > > > "People carefully timed their skills before the patch", lmao, thanks for this sentence, you make my day. > > > > > > > Ok, amending the sentence: "Players *who werent awful* timed their skills before the patch". If you wanted to have *any* chance of winning, you timed skills, because if you didnt, you instantly lost. The funny thing is, you argued this yourself. But then tried to also argue the opposite because this point hurts you. But just to put it simple, you cant have high damage, strong defensive tools, and a spammy meta. Those 3 things together make about as much sense as cold fire. > In the best case you had to concentrate 10 sec but we coma back again with some players concentration issues. Ah, moving the goal-posts. "You didnt have to time or setup anything". "Well ok, you did, but *totally* only for 10 seconds!!!". I suppose all thats left is to complete the final step. For that, let me just remind you of one simple thing. Most fights didnt last 10 seconds. They lasted 30 seconds to a minute. This would be the part where you go "ok fine, I was wrong, you had to time and setup skills a lot or you died too quickly". > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"PLS.4095" said: > > > > > > > > just because the old meta, which was high-skill and punished mistakes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looooooool > > > > > > > UNOwen, the new Genius ! > > > > > > > > > > > > Im always amused by people who find the truth funny. Do they just find everything funny? Is the truth something they see so rarely they cant help but laugh when they see it? > > > > > > > > > > Oh, no no, we're amused by you and other poeple that believe that "old meta was high-skill" thingie, it's hilarious to say the least. > > > > > > > > So youre finding the truth funny. Im not sure why youre saying "no" and then reaffirm what Ive stated. Is this a weird roundabout way of doing the reverse of the "well yes, but actually no" meme? In that case, you need new material. > > > I find it pretty funny yeah too yeah. > > > > I mean, good for your local comedian. He can just read income reports and youd be laughing non-stop. > No you are at a way higher comic level. Dunno what work you do but you shoukd consider reconverting. I am simply stating the truth, so its literally no different. > > > > > Thank you for giving me such entertainment with your biased posts, it's really fun to read them and others, though sadly I don't have enough popcorn. > > > > > > > > I guess if youre biased, any objective viewpoint seems biased to you. > > > I guess that people thinking they are objective seems to spam endless post on forums. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > > > If this was supposed to be a burn, you need new material. It doesnt even make sense. > What if I'm objective and you are biased like your super sentence argument was ? Then youd have arguments to back you up and wouldnt rely on ad hominems, logical fallacies and moving the goalposts, and I wouldnt have argument to back me up. Thats not the case though, so its a hypothetical not worth considering. > > > > > You people have an akward belief that 'High damage' that was shoved through our throats was "intended and healthy for the game", which is a lie, because giving such big boost to damage/sustain to a lot of skills promoted spamming and cheese mentality into oblivion. > > > > > > > > Ah, the same nonsense as always. Lets dissect it, shall we? First the "giving such big boosts to damage/sustain". People like to say this a lot, but here is the funny thing. Thats not the case. If you look back at GW2s history, both damage and sustain were pretty much always about as high as pre-patch, just at different times. We had the dreadful Cele Ele/Engineer meta, which is basically like the current meta but at least with skill involved. Damage-wise, the D/P thief people complained about pre-patch was just pre-HoT thief, but significantly weaker. In fact, what is a lie is the belief that the damage we have now is "intended and healthy for the game." Its not. Quite the opposite, the damage right now is *by far* lower than it has ever been in the entire history of the game. Even pre-specialisation patch damage was way higher. > > > Just play the game, out of condi rev we aren't in a unkillable meta at all. > > > > Just play the game, we are. I already showed you the clip of people dancing because they couldnt be killed, didnt I? I made a slight error though. *Neither* of them was Rev. And we had Revs and Rangers and Engineers fighting each other for 7 minutes without dying. Even Reapers and Necros. > No you aren't plating the game, take a screenshot of game played this season and stop lying please. I am, that is an argumentum ab auctoritatem (another logical fallacy), and I aint lying. But I find it funny that you keep ignoring all arguments you have no answer for. Remember how you said "Zerk ranger totally dies"? Why is it then that zerk ranger and zerk Holo both danced instead of fighting around tranquility? > > > > Now, the second part. "Promoted spamming and cheese mentality into oblivion". Equally popular, equally wrong. One could look at gaming in general, seeing that across all genres and all metas, the spammy ones are inevitably the ones with low damage, while high damage games and metas never are spammy. But sure, lets entertain the extremely unlikely, but *theoretically* possible notion that GW2 is just a very unique exception. Lets look at it logically then. So, you argue that damage pre-patch was way too high. Sure, you could argue that. But then logically we should see the top players at the highest level always immediately die or kill, and we wouldnt see any longer fights. Of course, that didnt happen. Thats why you amend your argument to "Well defensive tools were around that let you counteract damage". Ok, that is also valid. > > > > > > > But with those 2 in minds, you argue that the game was "spammy". Failing to notice the *giant* contradiction there. If there were defensive tools that let you counteract offensive ones easily, then what would happen if you spammed? Well, easy, the enemy uses his defensive tools, you waste all of your damage, and he kills you on the crackback. Which however means that its not spammy, because spam is ineffective. Now, to someone who may be familiar with more games, this is not surprising. Spammy metas are always low-damage metas, where there is no reason to hold back or time skills. > > > Killing a guy by spamming 2 clics (with the possibility of spamming 5) or with 5 clics didn't make the 2 clics less brainless you know. > > > > I have to admit, your ability to look your own contradiction in the eye and see nothing wrong with it is impressive. You still argue that the meta was spammy, despite the fact that you already disproved that possibility yourself through contradiction. No, if you spammed 2 clicks, or 5, or 10, or whatever number, the opponent used his defense wisely, runs you out of steam, and kills you on the crackback. Trying to spam not only wasnt the optimal way to play like it is right now. Oh no, it was the only way to almost 100% ensure that you lose on the spot. > If you spam right now you didn't put pressure. If ouvspam before patch you FORCE opponent to burn all his defensive skills. If you had more skills than him you won. Wrong on every account. Lets dissect it. No, if you spam all of your skills, you dont force the opponent to burn all his defensive skills. A single defensive skill can cover multiple offensive ones, after all. And if he hit you back with, idk, CC or burst during your skill, you were screwed. In simpler terms, if you spammed back then, you applied negative pressure, and just lost. There was no outcome where spamming skills did anything other than instantly losing you the fight. On the other hand right now, spamming is the way you apply pressure. Well, what little there is. Damage is too low to afford delaying any of it, and timing doesnt matter. > > > Not only the damage was too high but also the number of effects from many skills were way to high, which complety destroy other way to play. > > > > > > > Ah, a nice vague statement. Evokes a certain imagery without comitting to anything so you can amend it later. Well lets cut through that kitten then, shall we? It didnt, because those vague "other ways" didnt exist. Classes with high and low number of effects existed and were meta. How complex or not, how many skills you had or didnt have, it didnt really matter. All that mattered was that you were effective. > You should stop playing op class prepatch. Core Grenade Engineer was OP pre-patch? Also, not an argument, but an ad hominem. Are you just too proud to admit youre wrong, or are you unable to notice that you havent had an argument in quite some time? > > > > > True, it falsely made the game "fast paced", but in reality it dumbed down skill required to be effective, because every skill was hitting for a lot of damage, even defensive ones were overstacked with effects, which even more dumbed down combat. In my case, thanks to powercreep I've got worse compared to core, since I've stopped caring about a lot of stuff around me and even I was falling asleep from boredom while playing certain classes at any given time. > > > > > > > > If every skill hits for a lot of damage, and defensive cooldowns were very powerful, how does that dumb down skill? After all, that means you have to carefully navigate through their cooldowns while maximising usage of your cooldowns. That sounds very skillful, its no surprise of course, that *is* the standard of all skillful genres. MOBAs, Fighting Games, arena brawlers, and indeed even MMOs. > > > If every skills hits does a lot of damage and defensive cooldowns were very powerful, class specificity disapear and everyone end playing the same class. Give me another MMos with suposed good PvP were player die in 4 sec please, I'm pretty curious. > > > > Im impressed that you think class specificity didnt exist before the patch where it was wild, but now that every sidenoder is "unkillable build using knockback", suddenly its better? But no, thats of course nonsense. Even if every build did high damage (which already not the case, you had support builds like firebrand, bunker builds like prot holo, utility builds and so on), *how* they do the damage, and *how* they defend themselves is the key aspect. > Which class particularity ? Everyone was bursting. If you are talking about colours effect well I'm sad to explain to you that a pink cheesy burst or blue cheesy burst remain a cheesy burst. Have you ... played pre-patch at all? I suppose thats a silly question, based on what you just said, of course you havent. Yes, famously Sage firebrand support was a major burst build. As was water weaver, sage revenant, Prot Holo, Defense/Tactics Warrior, Fire Weaver (High DPS, but not really burst), or Boonbeast, or, or, or. Funny, isnt it? How many classes just didnt burst. So plenty of variation, bunker, burst, sustained DPS, support. Really, I cant think of any role that didnt exist. And even within the role, the way they played was quite different, sage revenant was nothing like water weaver. Prot Holo and Defense Warrior were very different. Even the bursters were different. As opposed to now where every sidenoder is "unkillable build with knockback", and otherwise you have the 1 support and the 1 thief. > > Ah-ah-ah. Leading question. Lets rephrase it to be correctly. "Give me another MMos with suposed good PvP were player, *if they seriously mess up and fail to use any of their defenses, can* die in 4 sec please". There we go, thats the correct question. And that correct question is easy to answer. WoW (ever seen Rogue?) BDO (ever seen *literally any of their classes*?), ESO (Multiple classes, Nightblade at the very least), Albion Online (A lot of them again), Blade and Soul (you get the gist), and so on. In fact, let me ask the simple counter-question. What other good MMO PvP can you think off where you can make multiple mistakes, fail to use your defenses at all, and still not die? Because as far as I can tell, across all the big and medium ones, no such game exists. > LMAO. > Are you serious ? > Wow is only a op class rotation every patch on top of carrying gear. Their cheesy arena and balance is one of the main reason I stop playing their game. > BDO is a p2w or no life farming game is you want to perfom in high level PvP. > Other are basically at the same activities than gw2, even worst. About the answer I expected. Sadly for you, those are the ones that are considered good. Much as Im not the biggest fan of WoW, its still the biggest PvP scene in MMOs. And the ones considered ok, like Albion. You also failed to answer the counterquestion. Which MMO can you think of that *isnt* like that. Because I listed pretty much every MMO with an actual PvP scene off. It doesnt get better further down the line either, not with stuff like SWTOR, Dragon Nest, Aion, etc. etc.. It seems you just dont like MMO PvP. Maybe try a different genre? > And on top of that on thoses game, even with the same gear/farming level, you can't end a fight on 5 sec. If the enemy screws up majorly? Yeah you can. Its not hard, either. Of course, if they *dont* screw up, not so much, but if the players didnt screw up in GW2 before, you also couldnt, not without outnumbering. And outnumbering is also effective for that in other MMOs. So yeah, so much for that. > > > > > Another thing, this game is not Osu! or Muse Dash or any high-reaction time required game, it's a MMORPG, meaning internet connection is important factor in the outcome of battles as well. Before big patch there were instances when you could go 100-0 from stealth before enemy model even rendered on the screen, high burst from stealth still happens, but not to this degree. > > > > > > > > Uh, you do know that almost all high-reaction games are online multiplayer, right? CS:GO, any fighting game, League, etc. Ping will always suck, you shouldnt dumb down and lower the skill of your game just to make sure that even those who have to play with major delay are at no disadvantage at all. On a sidenote, you still need low ping sometimes, for the one exciting and skillful thing that happens in games. Interrupting glyphs. Yeah its a bad sign when *that* is the highlight of the MOTA. > > > Which aren't MMo, If I want this type of gameplay I go to theses games. > > > > That was not your argument. Your argument was "internet connection is important factor in the outcome of battles as well.". That is true for *all* online PvP games. It is still no excuse to dumb down the game to allow players with delay to have no disadvantage. > What the kitten are you talking about. > Thoses game aren't mmo it's a fact. That was not your argument still. Your argument was "meaning internet connection is important factor in the outcome of battles as well.". That is still true for *all* online PvP games. Its still no excuse to dumb down the game to allow players with delay to have no disadvantage. > > > > > Another thingie: High Damage Skill = Big Shiny Animation Effect + Cast time(atleast >1s) = minimum 10~20s cd; otherwise if high damage skills have almost none animatio n or it's below 1s cast time, it's cooldown should be minimum of 40s atleast. You should work for your kill, it shouldn't be given for free because you facerolled on keyboard like that was the case on pre-balance. > > > > > > > > Except that *wasnt* the case on pre-balance. If you facerolled on your keyboard the enemy 100% of the time lived, and then you 100% of the time died. You *never* got any kills for free unless the enemy was terrible. You had to work for your kill. Unlike right now, where the only time you get a kill is when youre outnumbering them, which you obviously didnt work for. Its also funny that you think high cooldowns improves the game in any way. Here is the thing: Increasing cooldown doesnt make the game more interesting or tactical, it just means there are larger periods of time where youre just waiting for cooldowns while slapping them with autos. > > > Lol, Go back to the vid, see the "hard work" to get kill. It's just target, count the evade, burst then switch to next target should the burst fail or not. Such fun. > > > > Are you talking about when Sindrener outnumbers people? Because outnumbering will always have that aspect, its kinda the point. But go back and look at 1v1s around that time, and you will see that the people who faceroll die every single time, and those who time their skills, and set up their attacks always win. That is what high skill gameplay looks like. > Yeah such high skill counting a block or an evade before bursting. Mean not even about him but that how can be resumed our high skill. Its funny how you try rephrasing "timing and setting up skills" in a way that obscures that its just that, in a desperate attempt to salvage your position. Sadly, that trick really just doesnt work. Its still timing and setting up. Lets ignore that you ignore all classes that dont burst. Even then, you forgot both that you have to get the enemy to use his defensive cooldowns in an inefficient manner, and of course the fact that you have to stop them from executing their gameplan. Now *that* sounds like skillful gameplay to me. As opposed to know where its "spam everything off cooldown and use knockback to decap the point while waiting for reinforcements". > > > > > P.S. Currently sustain and few outliners need a shaves here and there. > > > > > > > > As I have explained, you will have to keep shaving healing everywhere until the meta goes from low-skill as it is right now, to *extremely* low-skill, as everyone just swaps to instant or near-instant cast skills to spam at the enemy because the damage will stick. It aint the solution. What we need is more damage. Right now damage is far lower than it has ever been in the games history, and with the current meta, we see why the damage was always higher before, because this meta is just Cele Ele meta, but way worse. > > > The meta was carrying and lowskill. > > > > > > > That is not an argument, that is an assessment. An assessment that is wrong. The *current* meta is carrying and low-skill. The old meta was high-skill, and if you didnt have your gameplay down pat, you would die. Something you yourself should know quite well. > You just had to have more tools in your class that why some were overplayed. Now you still have this on few class but at last you can play, not only kitting on safe spot. You have said that a few times, but, reality just doesnt agree with you. Unlike now, *every* class was played pre-patch. And no, it had nothing to do with "having more tools in your class". If that were the case, we wouldnt have regularly seen 30 seconds to 1 minute fights. Seeing how that is past the point where most cooldowns recharge at least once. > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > Your superior "work for your kill" perma bunker meta isn't saving the game mode and it's still dying. > > > Because you objectively thinks that it wasn't dying prepatch and it was enjoyable ? > > > > Whether it was dying or not pre-patch, fact is the rate of decay accelerated. So yeah, clearly people thought it was way more enjoyable. Not surprising given the outcome of this vote. > It don't acceleteted, it follow his usual decreasing curve. Nah, it accelerated alright. It had been stagnating pre-patch, now its in a downward spiral. > > > Mean we should had a mota prepatch and after patch just for loling comparison. > > > > And what exactly would you have tried to learn from that? Its a tournament, by definition its not going to be able to say anything about population. Sure, we wouldve seen the massive gap between the old high-skill meta and the current low-skill meta, and definitely wouldnt have seen the most skillful thing in a game be synchronised dancing, but something tells me that *that* isnt what you wouldve wanted to see. > > Did you just write that the argument you spam "look at mota " isn't representative of the population like I write it to you ? Nope. But nice try. Its extremely dishonest, as you seem to usually be, but at least its the tiniest bit clever. No what I said is that a tournament doesnt say anything about *population*. Or, in other words, it says nothing about *how many players still play*. Of course the tournament says *a lot* about what those who still play are playing, and about the meta, its a tournament. > Nice, another progress. We could probably do it in more 6 pages. > Nah, much faster. You already conceded most of your points, I imagine within 2 pages you concede the rest, or go mad trying to hold 2 contradictory viewpoints at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > Your superior "work for your kill" perma bunker meta isn't saving the game mode and it's still dying. > > > > Because you objectively thinks that it wasn't dying prepatch and it was enjoyable ? > > > > Mean we should had a mota prepatch and after patch just for loling comparison. > > > > > > And you think megabalance saved it? > > > > By changing some gameplay we had for ages yeah. > > You know, repeating something thats already been debunked is not a good look. Yes, its the "same gameplay we had for ages", except for just 2 months prior where the entire meta was radically different. And then 3 months. And so on. Instead, we now have had the same gameplay for, what, 4 months? With no change in sight. Is this sentence destined to you ? Something like repeating we are in a tank meta while every player who play the game see plethora of kills ? I just finished a game this minute : - 2 zerk Holo. - 1 zerk reaper. - 1 thief. - 1 renegade. Versus - 1 power mirage. - 1 core nec. - 1 thief. - 1 power rev. - 1 zerk Holo. If this is a low damage game, dunno what to say. > > Mean even on a underepresented class with one dodge meme I'm having more fun than with 2 dodges passive perma kitting old mirage. > > > > And you couldve played that built pre-patch and it wouldnt have been unviable. > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" : > > > > > > "Ofc you can't link something that dont exit" => @"UNOwen.7132" 2020. When I say something about A vid I linked after. But somehow only people arguing against you have to prove something because you are the universal truth. > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I concede that it exists. Assuming you are that Nium guy. You know. > > > > Where are yours ? It's fun talking about actual argument but if you can't prove you played carrying op class pre-patch, well at least give us your class played ratio. So we can see that you aren't another thief main like you wrote it while saying thief has the worst damage... > > > > > > > > > > Argumentum ab auctoritatem. Logical fallacy, not an argument. In fact, it is an absence of an argument, and a concession. It basically says "I was wrong, but I am too proud to admit that". > > ? What the kitten are you talking about ? > > That youre using a logical fallacy since you lack an argument. > > Why is it so hard showing us you don't main thief ? > > Its not hard. But its completely irrelevant. An attempt to sidetrack from your lack of argument. Yeah so you main thief thanks confirming it. I'm pretty sure you enjoyed the prepatch meta with this, bad news, it's over. > > > As for arguments, Ive had plenty of them. For the current one, why you have to look no further than the dancing at MOTA. As for the pre-patch, well I explained why high damage is good for the game, and then proved you wrong through contradiction. What more would you want, really. > > And I already explained why it wasn't. > > Actually, you didnt. Not surprising given that you cant, but, your closest argument was, what, that it "made the game spammy?". Problem is, thats a direct contradiction to high damage. So the reason you claimed high damage is bad is something that high damage makes impossible. Whoops? Not really, spamming 10k *2 or 2k * 10 don't mean one is more skillfull than the other. > > > > > > Mesmer isn't that far under many builds. But from someone who think that rev sustain is fine I haven't much hope. > > > > > Yes, thats why it was literally not played at all in the MOTA or seen at all in the leaderboards. Mesmer is *totally* fine. No its really far under all other builds. But hey, somebody should tell Misha he couldve played Mesmer in the MotA because some random kitten said that Mesmer is "totally fine". I doubt you believe this rubbish yourself. > > > > Yeah it's not played in Mota, like DH wasn't played in At during HoT golden time but was over-present in leaderboard. > > > > > > ATs did not exist during HoTs golden time, so no class was played in them. It was played during the world championship though. By one team that placed sixth, but played it was. For that matter, DH was overrepresented on lower level ladder, but not high level ladder. > > Even high ladder was filled of them. Again one more tunnel visionning or you weren't at this lecel I dunno. > > Was it now? Lets take a look at Sindreners [first]( ) video in his channel. Lets see. First game has one. Second game has a core guardian. Third game had no guardian. Fourth game had no guardian. Fifth game had no guardian. Sixth game had one. Seventh game had no guardian. Oh but one is no sample size, lets also look at [this]( ) one. Lots of games, so I will summarise, but thankfully its easy. 11 games, 0 dragonhunters. Across 18 games, 2 Dragonhunters. So much for "even high ladder was filled with them". Thats less than we even had in the world championship. Yeah now look few season after when he duoQ with misha and look at laderboard. Another pick : [https://youtube.com/watch?v=-yapTQAAmGM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yapTQAAmGM) 8 games, 24 gards and it's not even their golden time. > > > > I already explain why it wasn't in mota. > > > > > > You havent. You thought of something that sounded like an explanation, but failed to notice that it was simply wrong. Your idea was that "they didnt play a high-risk class", but historically high-risk classes, when theyre good, are *exactly* what gets played, because the reward is just as high. For that matter, its not exactly like Mirage is high-risk. Its just really, *really* bad. > > Now question : is it better to play bad but fun class than passive not interacting semi viable class ? > > At last you admit Mesmer is bad. Here is my counterpoint: Is it better to play a bad but fun class than the same fun class, but its actually semi-viable? Yeah, didnt think so. It's wasn't the case. > > > > > > Your subjective opinion concern only you, I already see plethora of people in game forum trying to make their view as universal truth. When I look the ladderboard pre-patch I see 40% thieves top 20. Sure it was much better lol. > > > > > > > > > > You didnt. You saw as many thieves as you do now. Because thief is one of the few classes that havent changed much. But you saw all 9 classes, with multiple entries each, in the leaderboard. On the other hand, how many warriors and mesmers are in the top 100 now? Do we have the token 1 or 2 now, or is it still 0? > > > > No I don't see 4 thief/game like it was. > > > > > > Funny how you fixate on just that one brief moment, and not the entirety before or after. I guess by that logic this meta is defined by 4-6 core necros every game, eh? > > You state that I see same number of thieves than preptach. It's false. And I neither see 4 core nec every game. Probably rank differences. > > "Pre-patch" is a long period of time, its not just a single moment frozen. By that logic, I could also use a single frozen moment to describe post-patch. And I chose the one where we had 4+ core necros every game. They had to do tweak after rework, nothing new. > > > > > > Pre-patch power mirage was viable, such a news, teach me with your high mesmer vision why we never saw it, even on leadderboard while now there is a least 1 top 100. This is factual data but you somehow can't accept it. > > > > > > > > > > We saw power core Mesmer, even in AT finals. Power Mirage wasnt played as much because it was honestly just outclassed. But we did also see a power mirage on the leaderboard. On the other hand, do tell me who that power mirage in the top 100 is. Because I doubt there is one. > > > > Lol, it was a meme and wasn't pre-patch at all but way before. Last season around 70th. > > > > > > Uh, yeah it was pre-patch, and no, it wasnt a meme. It was as low on the list of viability as you can get, but it was viable. Unlike now. > > Give me his name then. > > > > [Here]( ). Its a name you should be familiar with. The same person who didnt take Mesmer because it sucks, played power Mes in a MAT. Haha, pretty fun you link this, we saw a subpar build who was all about one ponitrick : burst or die. No counter play, no fight, just stealth, burst or die. You really defending this type of gameplay as skill ? > > > > > > I'm pretty dishonnest liking vids of me prepatch, can we see you now or you are too afraid everyone see your rating, builds or opponents ? > > > > > > > > > > Strawman. Nice. Guess being dishonest is just second nature to you. No, what was dishonest is that you linked a thief with 25 might stacks, said that he did 14k damage when he did 11k damage, and then acted as if that damage was the norm rather than the extreme exception. > > > > And the said thief had a HUDGE setup to get this 25 might, and weakness application. Ho wait ... No, he just push 3 buttons. :D > > > > > > What ... what weakness? What are you even talking about. And youre right, he didnt have to do that setup, because the Mesmer did it for him. But spoiler: The thief cant get those 25 mights 99.99999999% of the time. Meaning that damage is an extreme outlier, and not the norm you desperately wanted it to be. > > So you have someone having to buid a setup then a classe came and with 3 clics nullify this setup. WOW what a highskull game. Let's all play no setup full of mobility and damage class like it was then. > > Stacking up might when you know the thief is there who has boonrip is a misplay. That was punishing a major misplay. The high-skill element was the fact that a mistake was sufficiently punished. Though that being said, it likely didnt matter. Because it was a +1. But then again, +1s havent really changed, now have they? What has changed are 1v1s. And those went from timing and setup, and general high-skill, to synchronised dancing. So the high tips from @"UNOwen.7132" top player is : don't play. If you try build something you will get counter so don't try to build something, just eat burst so he can feel strong with his "high skill" thief. > > > > > > About bot, launching a rupt during a keyskill or bursting after a temporisation IS established or predictable pattern. > > > > > > > > > > > What does the bot do about rotations? What does it do when multiple players are around it? With builds it cant actually see or know? It can never be as good as a player. Well, not with the current level of technology at least. For that matter, it cant even handle switchups in rotations well. Prior to the patch the bots struggled, as people carefully timed their skills and had to setup whatever they did. Which meant a lot of variations in gameplay. Too much for a shoddily written bot to handle. Now that that is out of the window and people just use everything off cd, its much more predictable and as a result, much easier for the bot to handle. > > > > You are saying that skill is about wining a fight in even number and now you come back about bot rotation ? hmm not logic. > > > > > > The second usage of "rotation" refers to damage rotation. But no, skill is when macro and micro interact together. If its just macro, then its low-skill, if its just micro, its less low-skill (because you cant be carried as easily by other people), but still low-skill. > > Then you should be happy than macro gain purpose even on slow class. > > Macro already had purpose before the patch. As I said, its high-skill when macro *and* micro mattered. Pre-patch, they both did. Post-patch, only macro matters. Sorry where is the micro when you are instant countered a 3 sec setup in 1 sec ? > > > > "People carefully timed their skills before the patch", lmao, thanks for this sentence, you make my day. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, amending the sentence: "Players *who werent awful* timed their skills before the patch". If you wanted to have *any* chance of winning, you timed skills, because if you didnt, you instantly lost. The funny thing is, you argued this yourself. But then tried to also argue the opposite because this point hurts you. But just to put it simple, you cant have high damage, strong defensive tools, and a spammy meta. Those 3 things together make about as much sense as cold fire. > > In the best case you had to concentrate 10 sec but we coma back again with some players concentration issues. > > Ah, moving the goal-posts. "You didnt have to time or setup anything". "Well ok, you did, but *totally* only for 10 seconds!!!". I suppose all thats left is to complete the final step. For that, let me just remind you of one simple thing. Most fights didnt last 10 seconds. They lasted 30 seconds to a minute. This would be the part where you go "ok fine, I was wrong, you had to time and setup skills a lot or you died too quickly". On very few class certainly, on the global overview certainly not. > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"PLS.4095" said: > > > > > > > > > just because the old meta, which was high-skill and punished mistakes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looooooool > > > > > > > > UNOwen, the new Genius ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im always amused by people who find the truth funny. Do they just find everything funny? Is the truth something they see so rarely they cant help but laugh when they see it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, no no, we're amused by you and other poeple that believe that "old meta was high-skill" thingie, it's hilarious to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > So youre finding the truth funny. Im not sure why youre saying "no" and then reaffirm what Ive stated. Is this a weird roundabout way of doing the reverse of the "well yes, but actually no" meme? In that case, you need new material. > > > > I find it pretty funny yeah too yeah. > > > > > > I mean, good for your local comedian. He can just read income reports and youd be laughing non-stop. > > No you are at a way higher comic level. Dunno what work you do but you shoukd consider reconverting. > > I am simply stating the truth, so its literally no different. Yeah the truth from someone who can't play anymore cheesy bursts play. > > > > > > Thank you for giving me such entertainment with your biased posts, it's really fun to read them and others, though sadly I don't have enough popcorn. > > > > > > > > > > I guess if youre biased, any objective viewpoint seems biased to you. > > > > I guess that people thinking they are objective seems to spam endless post on forums. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > > > > > If this was supposed to be a burn, you need new material. It doesnt even make sense. > > What if I'm objective and you are biased like your super sentence argument was ? > > Then youd have arguments to back you up and wouldnt rely on ad hominems, logical fallacies and moving the goalposts, and I wouldnt have argument to back me up. Thats not the case though, so its a hypothetical not worth considering. From someone saying I'm a noob and didn't understand anything, your ad hominems seems pretty out of context. Particulary, when I ask prooves because you first say I'm a noob carrying by builds. > > > > > > You people have an akward belief that 'High damage' that was shoved through our throats was "intended and healthy for the game", which is a lie, because giving such big boost to damage/sustain to a lot of skills promoted spamming and cheese mentality into oblivion. > > > > > > > > > > Ah, the same nonsense as always. Lets dissect it, shall we? First the "giving such big boosts to damage/sustain". People like to say this a lot, but here is the funny thing. Thats not the case. If you look back at GW2s history, both damage and sustain were pretty much always about as high as pre-patch, just at different times. We had the dreadful Cele Ele/Engineer meta, which is basically like the current meta but at least with skill involved. Damage-wise, the D/P thief people complained about pre-patch was just pre-HoT thief, but significantly weaker. In fact, what is a lie is the belief that the damage we have now is "intended and healthy for the game." Its not. Quite the opposite, the damage right now is *by far* lower than it has ever been in the entire history of the game. Even pre-specialisation patch damage was way higher. > > > > Just play the game, out of condi rev we aren't in a unkillable meta at all. > > > > > > Just play the game, we are. I already showed you the clip of people dancing because they couldnt be killed, didnt I? I made a slight error though. *Neither* of them was Rev. And we had Revs and Rangers and Engineers fighting each other for 7 minutes without dying. Even Reapers and Necros. > > No you aren't plating the game, take a screenshot of game played this season and stop lying please. > > I am, that is an argumentum ab auctoritatem (another logical fallacy), and I aint lying. But I find it funny that you keep ignoring all arguments you have no answer for. Remember how you said "Zerk ranger totally dies"? Why is it then that zerk ranger and zerk Holo both danced instead of fighting around tranquility? Yeah and you will probably never give proove again, so yeah as long as it's just work, you talk about something you didn't even play. > > > > > Now, the second part. "Promoted spamming and cheese mentality into oblivion". Equally popular, equally wrong. One could look at gaming in general, seeing that across all genres and all metas, the spammy ones are inevitably the ones with low damage, while high damage games and metas never are spammy. But sure, lets entertain the extremely unlikely, but *theoretically* possible notion that GW2 is just a very unique exception. Lets look at it logically then. So, you argue that damage pre-patch was way too high. Sure, you could argue that. But then logically we should see the top players at the highest level always immediately die or kill, and we wouldnt see any longer fights. Of course, that didnt happen. Thats why you amend your argument to "Well defensive tools were around that let you counteract damage". Ok, that is also valid. > > > > > > > > > But with those 2 in minds, you argue that the game was "spammy". Failing to notice the *giant* contradiction there. If there were defensive tools that let you counteract offensive ones easily, then what would happen if you spammed? Well, easy, the enemy uses his defensive tools, you waste all of your damage, and he kills you on the crackback. Which however means that its not spammy, because spam is ineffective. Now, to someone who may be familiar with more games, this is not surprising. Spammy metas are always low-damage metas, where there is no reason to hold back or time skills. > > > > Killing a guy by spamming 2 clics (with the possibility of spamming 5) or with 5 clics didn't make the 2 clics less brainless you know. > > > > > > I have to admit, your ability to look your own contradiction in the eye and see nothing wrong with it is impressive. You still argue that the meta was spammy, despite the fact that you already disproved that possibility yourself through contradiction. No, if you spammed 2 clicks, or 5, or 10, or whatever number, the opponent used his defense wisely, runs you out of steam, and kills you on the crackback. Trying to spam not only wasnt the optimal way to play like it is right now. Oh no, it was the only way to almost 100% ensure that you lose on the spot. > > If you spam right now you didn't put pressure. If ouvspam before patch you FORCE opponent to burn all his defensive skills. If you had more skills than him you won. > > Wrong on every account. Lets dissect it. No, if you spam all of your skills, you dont force the opponent to burn all his defensive skills. A single defensive skill can cover multiple offensive ones, after all. And if he hit you back with, idk, CC or burst during your skill, you were screwed. In simpler terms, if you spammed back then, you applied negative pressure, and just lost. There was no outcome where spamming skills did anything other than instantly losing you the fight. On the other hand right now, spamming is the way you apply pressure. Well, what little there is. Damage is too low to afford delaying any of it, and timing doesnt matter. > So bad your "a signle defensive skill can cover multiple offensive ones" onyl work on certain class. Again play the game to see if damage is too low. > > > > Not only the damage was too high but also the number of effects from many skills were way to high, which complety destroy other way to play. > > > > > > > > > > Ah, a nice vague statement. Evokes a certain imagery without comitting to anything so you can amend it later. Well lets cut through that kitten then, shall we? It didnt, because those vague "other ways" didnt exist. Classes with high and low number of effects existed and were meta. How complex or not, how many skills you had or didnt have, it didnt really matter. All that mattered was that you were effective. > > You should stop playing op class prepatch. > > Core Grenade Engineer was OP pre-patch? Also, not an argument, but an ad hominem. Are you just too proud to admit youre wrong, or are you unable to notice that you havent had an argument in quite some time? Stfu you weren't playing core grenade engi. Stop continue lying about this. > > > > > > True, it falsely made the game "fast paced", but in reality it dumbed down skill required to be effective, because every skill was hitting for a lot of damage, even defensive ones were overstacked with effects, which even more dumbed down combat. In my case, thanks to powercreep I've got worse compared to core, since I've stopped caring about a lot of stuff around me and even I was falling asleep from boredom while playing certain classes at any given time. > > > > > > > > > > If every skill hits for a lot of damage, and defensive cooldowns were very powerful, how does that dumb down skill? After all, that means you have to carefully navigate through their cooldowns while maximising usage of your cooldowns. That sounds very skillful, its no surprise of course, that *is* the standard of all skillful genres. MOBAs, Fighting Games, arena brawlers, and indeed even MMOs. > > > > If every skills hits does a lot of damage and defensive cooldowns were very powerful, class specificity disapear and everyone end playing the same class. Give me another MMos with suposed good PvP were player die in 4 sec please, I'm pretty curious. > > > > > > Im impressed that you think class specificity didnt exist before the patch where it was wild, but now that every sidenoder is "unkillable build using knockback", suddenly its better? But no, thats of course nonsense. Even if every build did high damage (which already not the case, you had support builds like firebrand, bunker builds like prot holo, utility builds and so on), *how* they do the damage, and *how* they defend themselves is the key aspect. > > Which class particularity ? Everyone was bursting. If you are talking about colours effect well I'm sad to explain to you that a pink cheesy burst or blue cheesy burst remain a cheesy burst. > > Have you ... played pre-patch at all? I suppose thats a silly question, based on what you just said, of course you havent. Yes, famously Sage firebrand support was a major burst build. As was water weaver, sage revenant, Prot Holo, Defense/Tactics Warrior, Fire Weaver (High DPS, but not really burst), or Boonbeast, or, or, or. Funny, isnt it? How many classes just didnt burst. So plenty of variation, bunker, burst, sustained DPS, support. Really, I cant think of any role that didnt exist. And even within the role, the way they played was quite different, sage revenant was nothing like water weaver. Prot Holo and Defense Warrior were very different. Even the bursters were different. As opposed to now where every sidenoder is "unkillable build with knockback", and otherwise you have the 1 support and the 1 thief. Apart the fact that most of thoses builds didn't exists pass plat or were as rare as my current power mes, I can imaging someone can think this from out of game view. > > > Ah-ah-ah. Leading question. Lets rephrase it to be correctly. "Give me another MMos with suposed good PvP were player, *if they seriously mess up and fail to use any of their defenses, can* die in 4 sec please". There we go, thats the correct question. And that correct question is easy to answer. WoW (ever seen Rogue?) BDO (ever seen *literally any of their classes*?), ESO (Multiple classes, Nightblade at the very least), Albion Online (A lot of them again), Blade and Soul (you get the gist), and so on. In fact, let me ask the simple counter-question. What other good MMO PvP can you think off where you can make multiple mistakes, fail to use your defenses at all, and still not die? Because as far as I can tell, across all the big and medium ones, no such game exists. > > LMAO. > > Are you serious ? > > Wow is only a op class rotation every patch on top of carrying gear. Their cheesy arena and balance is one of the main reason I stop playing their game. > > BDO is a p2w or no life farming game is you want to perfom in high level PvP. > > Other are basically at the same activities than gw2, even worst. > > About the answer I expected. Sadly for you, those are the ones that are considered good. Much as Im not the biggest fan of WoW, its still the biggest PvP scene in MMOs. And the ones considered ok, like Albion. You also failed to answer the counterquestion. Which MMO can you think of that *isnt* like that. Because I listed pretty much every MMO with an actual PvP scene off. It doesnt get better further down the line either, not with stuff like SWTOR, Dragon Nest, Aion, etc. etc.. It seems you just dont like MMO PvP. Maybe try a different genre? No you consider it good if you want, but they are kinda bad and way more gear carried. And lol about "their" pvp scene. > > And on top of that on thoses game, even with the same gear/farming level, you can't end a fight on 5 sec. > > If the enemy screws up majorly? Yeah you can. Its not hard, either. Of course, if they *dont* screw up, not so much, but if the players didnt screw up in GW2 before, you also couldnt, not without outnumbering. And outnumbering is also effective for that in other MMOs. So yeah, so much for that. No you can't > > > > > > Another thing, this game is not Osu! or Muse Dash or any high-reaction time required game, it's a MMORPG, meaning internet connection is important factor in the outcome of battles as well. Before big patch there were instances when you could go 100-0 from stealth before enemy model even rendered on the screen, high burst from stealth still happens, but not to this degree. > > > > > > > > > > Uh, you do know that almost all high-reaction games are online multiplayer, right? CS:GO, any fighting game, League, etc. Ping will always suck, you shouldnt dumb down and lower the skill of your game just to make sure that even those who have to play with major delay are at no disadvantage at all. On a sidenote, you still need low ping sometimes, for the one exciting and skillful thing that happens in games. Interrupting glyphs. Yeah its a bad sign when *that* is the highlight of the MOTA. > > > > Which aren't MMo, If I want this type of gameplay I go to theses games. > > > > > > That was not your argument. Your argument was "internet connection is important factor in the outcome of battles as well.". That is true for *all* online PvP games. It is still no excuse to dumb down the game to allow players with delay to have no disadvantage. > > What the kitten are you talking about. > > Thoses game aren't mmo it's a fact. > > That was not your argument still. Your argument was "meaning internet connection is important factor in the outcome of battles as well.". That is still true for *all* online PvP games. Its still no excuse to dumb down the game to allow players with delay to have no disadvantage. ? > > > > > > Another thingie: High Damage Skill = Big Shiny Animation Effect + Cast time(atleast >1s) = minimum 10~20s cd; otherwise if high damage skills have almost none animatio n or it's below 1s cast time, it's cooldown should be minimum of 40s atleast. You should work for your kill, it shouldn't be given for free because you facerolled on keyboard like that was the case on pre-balance. > > > > > > > > > > Except that *wasnt* the case on pre-balance. If you facerolled on your keyboard the enemy 100% of the time lived, and then you 100% of the time died. You *never* got any kills for free unless the enemy was terrible. You had to work for your kill. Unlike right now, where the only time you get a kill is when youre outnumbering them, which you obviously didnt work for. Its also funny that you think high cooldowns improves the game in any way. Here is the thing: Increasing cooldown doesnt make the game more interesting or tactical, it just means there are larger periods of time where youre just waiting for cooldowns while slapping them with autos. > > > > Lol, Go back to the vid, see the "hard work" to get kill. It's just target, count the evade, burst then switch to next target should the burst fail or not. Such fun. > > > > > > Are you talking about when Sindrener outnumbers people? Because outnumbering will always have that aspect, its kinda the point. But go back and look at 1v1s around that time, and you will see that the people who faceroll die every single time, and those who time their skills, and set up their attacks always win. That is what high skill gameplay looks like. > > Yeah such high skill counting a block or an evade before bursting. Mean not even about him but that how can be resumed our high skill. > > Its funny how you try rephrasing "timing and setting up skills" in a way that obscures that its just that, in a desperate attempt to salvage your position. Sadly, that trick really just doesnt work. Its still timing and setting up. Lets ignore that you ignore all classes that dont burst. Even then, you forgot both that you have to get the enemy to use his defensive cooldowns in an inefficient manner, and of course the fact that you have to stop them from executing their gameplan. Now *that* sounds like skillful gameplay to me. As opposed to know where its "spam everything off cooldown and use knockback to decap the point while waiting for reinforcements". Yeah it's surely very skillfull when on the side of thoses with many tools and counter. > > > > > > P.S. Currently sustain and few outliners need a shaves here and there. > > > > > > > > > > As I have explained, you will have to keep shaving healing everywhere until the meta goes from low-skill as it is right now, to *extremely* low-skill, as everyone just swaps to instant or near-instant cast skills to spam at the enemy because the damage will stick. It aint the solution. What we need is more damage. Right now damage is far lower than it has ever been in the games history, and with the current meta, we see why the damage was always higher before, because this meta is just Cele Ele meta, but way worse. > > > > The meta was carrying and lowskill. > > > > > > > > > > That is not an argument, that is an assessment. An assessment that is wrong. The *current* meta is carrying and low-skill. The old meta was high-skill, and if you didnt have your gameplay down pat, you would die. Something you yourself should know quite well. > > You just had to have more tools in your class that why some were overplayed. Now you still have this on few class but at last you can play, not only kitting on safe spot. > > You have said that a few times, but, reality just doesnt agree with you. Unlike now, *every* class was played pre-patch. And no, it had nothing to do with "having more tools in your class". If that were the case, we wouldnt have regularly seen 30 seconds to 1 minute fights. Seeing how that is past the point where most cooldowns recharge at least once. No, not every class were played pre-patch and way less builds. > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > Your superior "work for your kill" perma bunker meta isn't saving the game mode and it's still dying. > > > > Because you objectively thinks that it wasn't dying prepatch and it was enjoyable ? > > > > > > Whether it was dying or not pre-patch, fact is the rate of decay accelerated. So yeah, clearly people thought it was way more enjoyable. Not surprising given the outcome of this vote. > > It don't acceleteted, it follow his usual decreasing curve. > > Nah, it accelerated alright. It had been stagnating pre-patch, now its in a downward spiral. whatsoever > > > > Mean we should had a mota prepatch and after patch just for loling comparison. > > > > > > And what exactly would you have tried to learn from that? Its a tournament, by definition its not going to be able to say anything about population. Sure, we wouldve seen the massive gap between the old high-skill meta and the current low-skill meta, and definitely wouldnt have seen the most skillful thing in a game be synchronised dancing, but something tells me that *that* isnt what you wouldve wanted to see. > > > > Did you just write that the argument you spam "look at mota " isn't representative of the population like I write it to you ? > > Nope. But nice try. Its extremely dishonest, as you seem to usually be, but at least its the tiniest bit clever. No what I said is that a tournament doesnt say anything about *population*. Or, in other words, it says nothing about *how many players still play*. Of course the tournament says *a lot* about what those who still play are playing, and about the meta, its a tournament. Yeah so your "look at mota, tank everywhere" can be put where I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > Your superior "work for your kill" perma bunker meta isn't saving the game mode and it's still dying. > > > > > Because you objectively thinks that it wasn't dying prepatch and it was enjoyable ? > > > > > Mean we should had a mota prepatch and after patch just for loling comparison. > > > > > > > > And you think megabalance saved it? > > > > > > By changing some gameplay we had for ages yeah. > > > > You know, repeating something thats already been debunked is not a good look. Yes, its the "same gameplay we had for ages", except for just 2 months prior where the entire meta was radically different. And then 3 months. And so on. Instead, we now have had the same gameplay for, what, 4 months? With no change in sight. > Is this sentence destined to you ? Something like repeating we are in a tank meta while every player who play the game see plethora of kills ? > I just finished a game this minute : > - 2 zerk Holo. > - 1 zerk reaper. > - 1 thief. > - 1 renegade. > > Versus > - 1 power mirage. > - 1 core nec. > - 1 thief. > - 1 power rev. > - 1 zerk Holo. > > If this is a low damage game, dunno what to say. Looks like a standard MOTA lineup, minus the unviable Mirage. Now remember, how often did 1v1s in the MOTA lead to kills? Not at all. In even, fair fights, the damage is indeed low. When outnumbering, not so much, but thats the point, isnt it? If you outnumber, you kill, if you dont, you dont. > > > Mean even on a underepresented class with one dodge meme I'm having more fun than with 2 dodges passive perma kitting old mirage. > > > > > > > And you couldve played that built pre-patch and it wouldnt have been unviable. > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" : > > > > > > > "Ofc you can't link something that dont exit" => @"UNOwen.7132" 2020. When I say something about A vid I linked after. But somehow only people arguing against you have to prove something because you are the universal truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I concede that it exists. Assuming you are that Nium guy. You know. > > > > > Where are yours ? It's fun talking about actual argument but if you can't prove you played carrying op class pre-patch, well at least give us your class played ratio. So we can see that you aren't another thief main like you wrote it while saying thief has the worst damage... > > > > > > > > > > > > > Argumentum ab auctoritatem. Logical fallacy, not an argument. In fact, it is an absence of an argument, and a concession. It basically says "I was wrong, but I am too proud to admit that". > > > ? What the kitten are you talking about ? > > > > That youre using a logical fallacy since you lack an argument. > > > Why is it so hard showing us you don't main thief ? > > > > Its not hard. But its completely irrelevant. An attempt to sidetrack from your lack of argument. > Yeah so you main thief thanks confirming it. I'm pretty sure you enjoyed the prepatch meta with this, bad news, it's over. Ignoring that its false (still an engineer main, havent mained thief since, hm. Early PoF? And even then I played a bunch of engineer), even if it was. Why do you think that changes anything? As I said, this is an ad hominem, instead of attacking the argument (because you cant), you try to attack the person. Its a logical fallacy, and the absence of an argument. > > > > As for arguments, Ive had plenty of them. For the current one, why you have to look no further than the dancing at MOTA. As for the pre-patch, well I explained why high damage is good for the game, and then proved you wrong through contradiction. What more would you want, really. > > > And I already explained why it wasn't. > > > > Actually, you didnt. Not surprising given that you cant, but, your closest argument was, what, that it "made the game spammy?". Problem is, thats a direct contradiction to high damage. So the reason you claimed high damage is bad is something that high damage makes impossible. Whoops? > Not really, spamming 10k *2 or 2k * 10 don't mean one is more skillfull than the other. Why do you think using 2 skills is "spamming"? For that matter, why are you trying to remove context? Lets look at it differently. 2 10k hits, both of which are likely telegraphed and easily avoided, are much harder to hit, and have to be used more carefully. Since if any of them fail to connect, you lost a lot of damage. Now, lets look at the 10 2k hits. For one, theyre far less likely to be telegraphed or easily avoided. For that matter, if any of them are avoided, you lose far less damage. With these, you can indeed spam them, especially if damage is unlikely to stick. You cant delay damage, in that case. So, indeed, one is more skillful than the other. Its the difference between throwing a bunch of low damage skills at will, or having to carefully wait for the *meaty* hits to connect. > > > > > > > Mesmer isn't that far under many builds. But from someone who think that rev sustain is fine I haven't much hope. > > > > > > Yes, thats why it was literally not played at all in the MOTA or seen at all in the leaderboards. Mesmer is *totally* fine. No its really far under all other builds. But hey, somebody should tell Misha he couldve played Mesmer in the MotA because some random kitten said that Mesmer is "totally fine". I doubt you believe this rubbish yourself. > > > > > Yeah it's not played in Mota, like DH wasn't played in At during HoT golden time but was over-present in leaderboard. > > > > > > > > ATs did not exist during HoTs golden time, so no class was played in them. It was played during the world championship though. By one team that placed sixth, but played it was. For that matter, DH was overrepresented on lower level ladder, but not high level ladder. > > > Even high ladder was filled of them. Again one more tunnel visionning or you weren't at this lecel I dunno. > > > > Was it now? Lets take a look at Sindreners [first]( ) video in his channel. Lets see. First game has one. Second game has a core guardian. Third game had no guardian. Fourth game had no guardian. Fifth game had no guardian. Sixth game had one. Seventh game had no guardian. Oh but one is no sample size, lets also look at [this]( ) one. Lots of games, so I will summarise, but thankfully its easy. 11 games, 0 dragonhunters. Across 18 games, 2 Dragonhunters. So much for "even high ladder was filled with them". Thats less than we even had in the world championship. > Yeah now look few season after when he duoQ with misha and look at laderboard. > Another pick : [https://youtube.com/watch?v=-yapTQAAmGM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yapTQAAmGM) 8 games, 24 gards and it's not even their golden time. Were you going to mention that this was in low Ruby, which is equivalent to low gold and as such not the "high ladder", or am I supposed to do that? > > > > > I already explain why it wasn't in mota. > > > > > > > > You havent. You thought of something that sounded like an explanation, but failed to notice that it was simply wrong. Your idea was that "they didnt play a high-risk class", but historically high-risk classes, when theyre good, are *exactly* what gets played, because the reward is just as high. For that matter, its not exactly like Mirage is high-risk. Its just really, *really* bad. > > > Now question : is it better to play bad but fun class than passive not interacting semi viable class ? > > > > At last you admit Mesmer is bad. Here is my counterpoint: Is it better to play a bad but fun class than the same fun class, but its actually semi-viable? Yeah, didnt think so. > It's wasn't the case. Except it was. I even showed you the person in question. You havent forgotten, have you? > > > > > > > Your subjective opinion concern only you, I already see plethora of people in game forum trying to make their view as universal truth. When I look the ladderboard pre-patch I see 40% thieves top 20. Sure it was much better lol. > > > > > > > > > > > > You didnt. You saw as many thieves as you do now. Because thief is one of the few classes that havent changed much. But you saw all 9 classes, with multiple entries each, in the leaderboard. On the other hand, how many warriors and mesmers are in the top 100 now? Do we have the token 1 or 2 now, or is it still 0? > > > > > No I don't see 4 thief/game like it was. > > > > > > > > Funny how you fixate on just that one brief moment, and not the entirety before or after. I guess by that logic this meta is defined by 4-6 core necros every game, eh? > > > You state that I see same number of thieves than preptach. It's false. And I neither see 4 core nec every game. Probably rank differences. > > > > "Pre-patch" is a long period of time, its not just a single moment frozen. By that logic, I could also use a single frozen moment to describe post-patch. And I chose the one where we had 4+ core necros every game. > They had to do tweak after rework, nothing new. And yet somehow you dont apply that logic to the brief 4 thief period. Hypocritical, much? > > > > > > > Pre-patch power mirage was viable, such a news, teach me with your high mesmer vision why we never saw it, even on leadderboard while now there is a least 1 top 100. This is factual data but you somehow can't accept it. > > > > > > > > > > > > We saw power core Mesmer, even in AT finals. Power Mirage wasnt played as much because it was honestly just outclassed. But we did also see a power mirage on the leaderboard. On the other hand, do tell me who that power mirage in the top 100 is. Because I doubt there is one. > > > > > Lol, it was a meme and wasn't pre-patch at all but way before. Last season around 70th. > > > > > > > > Uh, yeah it was pre-patch, and no, it wasnt a meme. It was as low on the list of viability as you can get, but it was viable. Unlike now. > > > Give me his name then. > > > > > > > [Here]( ). Its a name you should be familiar with. The same person who didnt take Mesmer because it sucks, played power Mes in a MAT. > Haha, pretty fun you link this, we saw a subpar build who was all about one ponitrick : burst or die. No counter play, no fight, just stealth, burst or die. You really defending this type of gameplay as skill ? I mean, what exactly do you think Power Mesmer is? If you dont like the build, then I question why you want it to be good. But then again, not like I care. But yes, its one of the less engaging builds, and Im personally not the biggest fan of it specifically. However, executing the combo is not the easiest thing to do, and certainly exceeds what we have. > > > > > > > I'm pretty dishonnest liking vids of me prepatch, can we see you now or you are too afraid everyone see your rating, builds or opponents ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Strawman. Nice. Guess being dishonest is just second nature to you. No, what was dishonest is that you linked a thief with 25 might stacks, said that he did 14k damage when he did 11k damage, and then acted as if that damage was the norm rather than the extreme exception. > > > > > And the said thief had a HUDGE setup to get this 25 might, and weakness application. Ho wait ... No, he just push 3 buttons. :D > > > > > > > > What ... what weakness? What are you even talking about. And youre right, he didnt have to do that setup, because the Mesmer did it for him. But spoiler: The thief cant get those 25 mights 99.99999999% of the time. Meaning that damage is an extreme outlier, and not the norm you desperately wanted it to be. > > > So you have someone having to buid a setup then a classe came and with 3 clics nullify this setup. WOW what a highskull game. Let's all play no setup full of mobility and damage class like it was then. > > > > Stacking up might when you know the thief is there who has boonrip is a misplay. That was punishing a major misplay. The high-skill element was the fact that a mistake was sufficiently punished. Though that being said, it likely didnt matter. Because it was a +1. But then again, +1s havent really changed, now have they? What has changed are 1v1s. And those went from timing and setup, and general high-skill, to synchronised dancing. > > So the high tips from @"UNOwen.7132" top player is : don't play. > If you try build something you will get counter so don't try to build something, just eat burst so he can feel strong with his "high skill" thief. > Strawmanning, you just love to throw out more fallacies. No, what I said is that when you misplay, you get punished. But I also explained that in a +1, its not as big of a factor. But here is the thing, +1s didnt change. You still die in those. So why is your argument against the old meta *the one thing thats the same if not more prevalent in the new meta*? > > > > > > > About bot, launching a rupt during a keyskill or bursting after a temporisation IS established or predictable pattern. > > > > > > > > > > > > > What does the bot do about rotations? What does it do when multiple players are around it? With builds it cant actually see or know? It can never be as good as a player. Well, not with the current level of technology at least. For that matter, it cant even handle switchups in rotations well. Prior to the patch the bots struggled, as people carefully timed their skills and had to setup whatever they did. Which meant a lot of variations in gameplay. Too much for a shoddily written bot to handle. Now that that is out of the window and people just use everything off cd, its much more predictable and as a result, much easier for the bot to handle. > > > > > You are saying that skill is about wining a fight in even number and now you come back about bot rotation ? hmm not logic. > > > > > > > > The second usage of "rotation" refers to damage rotation. But no, skill is when macro and micro interact together. If its just macro, then its low-skill, if its just micro, its less low-skill (because you cant be carried as easily by other people), but still low-skill. > > > Then you should be happy than macro gain purpose even on slow class. > > > > Macro already had purpose before the patch. As I said, its high-skill when macro *and* micro mattered. Pre-patch, they both did. Post-patch, only macro matters. > Sorry where is the micro when you are instant countered a 3 sec setup in 1 sec ? Are you fixating on the specific +1 scenario? The micro is when you fight a fair fight and have to carefully time your skills and avoid theirs. > > > > > "People carefully timed their skills before the patch", lmao, thanks for this sentence, you make my day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, amending the sentence: "Players *who werent awful* timed their skills before the patch". If you wanted to have *any* chance of winning, you timed skills, because if you didnt, you instantly lost. The funny thing is, you argued this yourself. But then tried to also argue the opposite because this point hurts you. But just to put it simple, you cant have high damage, strong defensive tools, and a spammy meta. Those 3 things together make about as much sense as cold fire. > > > In the best case you had to concentrate 10 sec but we coma back again with some players concentration issues. > > > > Ah, moving the goal-posts. "You didnt have to time or setup anything". "Well ok, you did, but *totally* only for 10 seconds!!!". I suppose all thats left is to complete the final step. For that, let me just remind you of one simple thing. Most fights didnt last 10 seconds. They lasted 30 seconds to a minute. This would be the part where you go "ok fine, I was wrong, you had to time and setup skills a lot or you died too quickly". > On very few class certainly, on the global overview certainly not. You were *this close* to achieving self-awareness. But no. It was certainly that way on the "global overview". If you didnt time your stuff carefully, they get to negate all of it with their defenses and kill you on the crackback. On the other hand you also had to carefully time your defenses with their offense to not be caught defenseless for any of their big hits. > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"PLS.4095" said: > > > > > > > > > > just because the old meta, which was high-skill and punished mistakes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looooooool > > > > > > > > > UNOwen, the new Genius ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im always amused by people who find the truth funny. Do they just find everything funny? Is the truth something they see so rarely they cant help but laugh when they see it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, no no, we're amused by you and other poeple that believe that "old meta was high-skill" thingie, it's hilarious to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > > > So youre finding the truth funny. Im not sure why youre saying "no" and then reaffirm what Ive stated. Is this a weird roundabout way of doing the reverse of the "well yes, but actually no" meme? In that case, you need new material. > > > > > I find it pretty funny yeah too yeah. > > > > > > > > I mean, good for your local comedian. He can just read income reports and youd be laughing non-stop. > > > No you are at a way higher comic level. Dunno what work you do but you shoukd consider reconverting. > > > > I am simply stating the truth, so its literally no different. > Yeah the truth from someone who can't play anymore cheesy bursts play. > > > > > > > Thank you for giving me such entertainment with your biased posts, it's really fun to read them and others, though sadly I don't have enough popcorn. > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess if youre biased, any objective viewpoint seems biased to you. > > > > > I guess that people thinking they are objective seems to spam endless post on forums. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > > > > > > > If this was supposed to be a burn, you need new material. It doesnt even make sense. > > > What if I'm objective and you are biased like your super sentence argument was ? > > > > Then youd have arguments to back you up and wouldnt rely on ad hominems, logical fallacies and moving the goalposts, and I wouldnt have argument to back me up. Thats not the case though, so its a hypothetical not worth considering. > From someone saying I'm a noob and didn't understand anything, your ad hominems seems pretty out of context. Particulary, when I ask prooves because you first say I'm a noob carrying by builds. I did say it based on what you said. You described scenarios that for good players didnt happen. But I also said that it was your choice whether youre bad, or dishonest, and I think at this point you have certainly proven the latter. > > > > > > > You people have an akward belief that 'High damage' that was shoved through our throats was "intended and healthy for the game", which is a lie, because giving such big boost to damage/sustain to a lot of skills promoted spamming and cheese mentality into oblivion. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah, the same nonsense as always. Lets dissect it, shall we? First the "giving such big boosts to damage/sustain". People like to say this a lot, but here is the funny thing. Thats not the case. If you look back at GW2s history, both damage and sustain were pretty much always about as high as pre-patch, just at different times. We had the dreadful Cele Ele/Engineer meta, which is basically like the current meta but at least with skill involved. Damage-wise, the D/P thief people complained about pre-patch was just pre-HoT thief, but significantly weaker. In fact, what is a lie is the belief that the damage we have now is "intended and healthy for the game." Its not. Quite the opposite, the damage right now is *by far* lower than it has ever been in the entire history of the game. Even pre-specialisation patch damage was way higher. > > > > > Just play the game, out of condi rev we aren't in a unkillable meta at all. > > > > > > > > Just play the game, we are. I already showed you the clip of people dancing because they couldnt be killed, didnt I? I made a slight error though. *Neither* of them was Rev. And we had Revs and Rangers and Engineers fighting each other for 7 minutes without dying. Even Reapers and Necros. > > > No you aren't plating the game, take a screenshot of game played this season and stop lying please. > > > > I am, that is an argumentum ab auctoritatem (another logical fallacy), and I aint lying. But I find it funny that you keep ignoring all arguments you have no answer for. Remember how you said "Zerk ranger totally dies"? Why is it then that zerk ranger and zerk Holo both danced instead of fighting around tranquility? > Yeah and you will probably never give proove again, so yeah as long as it's just work, you talk about something you didn't even play. That is not what "proof" means. What I played, or when, or where, thats not proof. An argument does not require a specific person behind it to be an argument, quite the opposite, it is detached. If you attack the person, you just admit you cant defeat the argument. > > > > > > Now, the second part. "Promoted spamming and cheese mentality into oblivion". Equally popular, equally wrong. One could look at gaming in general, seeing that across all genres and all metas, the spammy ones are inevitably the ones with low damage, while high damage games and metas never are spammy. But sure, lets entertain the extremely unlikely, but *theoretically* possible notion that GW2 is just a very unique exception. Lets look at it logically then. So, you argue that damage pre-patch was way too high. Sure, you could argue that. But then logically we should see the top players at the highest level always immediately die or kill, and we wouldnt see any longer fights. Of course, that didnt happen. Thats why you amend your argument to "Well defensive tools were around that let you counteract damage". Ok, that is also valid. > > > > > > > > > > > But with those 2 in minds, you argue that the game was "spammy". Failing to notice the *giant* contradiction there. If there were defensive tools that let you counteract offensive ones easily, then what would happen if you spammed? Well, easy, the enemy uses his defensive tools, you waste all of your damage, and he kills you on the crackback. Which however means that its not spammy, because spam is ineffective. Now, to someone who may be familiar with more games, this is not surprising. Spammy metas are always low-damage metas, where there is no reason to hold back or time skills. > > > > > Killing a guy by spamming 2 clics (with the possibility of spamming 5) or with 5 clics didn't make the 2 clics less brainless you know. > > > > > > > > I have to admit, your ability to look your own contradiction in the eye and see nothing wrong with it is impressive. You still argue that the meta was spammy, despite the fact that you already disproved that possibility yourself through contradiction. No, if you spammed 2 clicks, or 5, or 10, or whatever number, the opponent used his defense wisely, runs you out of steam, and kills you on the crackback. Trying to spam not only wasnt the optimal way to play like it is right now. Oh no, it was the only way to almost 100% ensure that you lose on the spot. > > > If you spam right now you didn't put pressure. If ouvspam before patch you FORCE opponent to burn all his defensive skills. If you had more skills than him you won. > > > > Wrong on every account. Lets dissect it. No, if you spam all of your skills, you dont force the opponent to burn all his defensive skills. A single defensive skill can cover multiple offensive ones, after all. And if he hit you back with, idk, CC or burst during your skill, you were screwed. In simpler terms, if you spammed back then, you applied negative pressure, and just lost. There was no outcome where spamming skills did anything other than instantly losing you the fight. On the other hand right now, spamming is the way you apply pressure. Well, what little there is. Damage is too low to afford delaying any of it, and timing doesnt matter. > > > So bad your "a signle defensive skill can cover multiple offensive ones" onyl work on certain class. Again play the game to see if damage is too low. > ... because only certain classes have the dodge button? You do know that the baseline evade is accessible to every class, right? And 0.75 seconds are enough time to cover a few. And even then, how many classes can you name that dont have either evades, blocks, invulnerability, big shields or major damage reduction (or any combination thereof)? Yeah, so much for that. And I do. Same story always. 1v1s dont intend, outnumbering is the name of the game. Even with Grenade Kit being good now, something Im very much so a fan of, its just dull. Not helped by the abysmal state of the matchmaking thanks to players leaving and of course the bots. > > > > > Not only the damage was too high but also the number of effects from many skills were way to high, which complety destroy other way to play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah, a nice vague statement. Evokes a certain imagery without comitting to anything so you can amend it later. Well lets cut through that kitten then, shall we? It didnt, because those vague "other ways" didnt exist. Classes with high and low number of effects existed and were meta. How complex or not, how many skills you had or didnt have, it didnt really matter. All that mattered was that you were effective. > > > You should stop playing op class prepatch. > > > > Core Grenade Engineer was OP pre-patch? Also, not an argument, but an ad hominem. Are you just too proud to admit youre wrong, or are you unable to notice that you havent had an argument in quite some time? > kitten you weren't playing core grenade engi. Stop continue lying about this. Except I was. Its my favourite build, and even back then I have repeatedly said on the forums that I dont play thief because I didnt like the direction it took around the latter half of HoT, away from a duelist to a decap and +1 bot. So no, Im not lying. But its nice to see that youre so desperate for it to be false. I guess you noticed that without the ad hominem, you have nothing left. > > > > > > > True, it falsely made the game "fast paced", but in reality it dumbed down skill required to be effective, because every skill was hitting for a lot of damage, even defensive ones were overstacked with effects, which even more dumbed down combat. In my case, thanks to powercreep I've got worse compared to core, since I've stopped caring about a lot of stuff around me and even I was falling asleep from boredom while playing certain classes at any given time. > > > > > > > > > > > > If every skill hits for a lot of damage, and defensive cooldowns were very powerful, how does that dumb down skill? After all, that means you have to carefully navigate through their cooldowns while maximising usage of your cooldowns. That sounds very skillful, its no surprise of course, that *is* the standard of all skillful genres. MOBAs, Fighting Games, arena brawlers, and indeed even MMOs. > > > > > If every skills hits does a lot of damage and defensive cooldowns were very powerful, class specificity disapear and everyone end playing the same class. Give me another MMos with suposed good PvP were player die in 4 sec please, I'm pretty curious. > > > > > > > > Im impressed that you think class specificity didnt exist before the patch where it was wild, but now that every sidenoder is "unkillable build using knockback", suddenly its better? But no, thats of course nonsense. Even if every build did high damage (which already not the case, you had support builds like firebrand, bunker builds like prot holo, utility builds and so on), *how* they do the damage, and *how* they defend themselves is the key aspect. > > > Which class particularity ? Everyone was bursting. If you are talking about colours effect well I'm sad to explain to you that a pink cheesy burst or blue cheesy burst remain a cheesy burst. > > > > Have you ... played pre-patch at all? I suppose thats a silly question, based on what you just said, of course you havent. Yes, famously Sage firebrand support was a major burst build. As was water weaver, sage revenant, Prot Holo, Defense/Tactics Warrior, Fire Weaver (High DPS, but not really burst), or Boonbeast, or, or, or. Funny, isnt it? How many classes just didnt burst. So plenty of variation, bunker, burst, sustained DPS, support. Really, I cant think of any role that didnt exist. And even within the role, the way they played was quite different, sage revenant was nothing like water weaver. Prot Holo and Defense Warrior were very different. Even the bursters were different. As opposed to now where every sidenoder is "unkillable build with knockback", and otherwise you have the 1 support and the 1 thief. > Apart the fact that most of thoses builds didn't exists pass plat or were as rare as my current power mes, I can imaging someone can think this from out of game view. :lol: "Firebrand, Fire Weaver, Water Weaver, Prot Holo, Defense/Tactics Warrior didnt exist past plat". That may just be the most laughably wrong thing Ive read in a while. The only one of those that was a rare-ish choice was Sage Revenant, which was a pocket pick for a couple rev players on NA I believe. But the other ones were extremely common. So, tell me again how ever build burst? Yeah, so much for that. > > > > Ah-ah-ah. Leading question. Lets rephrase it to be correctly. "Give me another MMos with suposed good PvP were player, *if they seriously mess up and fail to use any of their defenses, can* die in 4 sec please". There we go, thats the correct question. And that correct question is easy to answer. WoW (ever seen Rogue?) BDO (ever seen *literally any of their classes*?), ESO (Multiple classes, Nightblade at the very least), Albion Online (A lot of them again), Blade and Soul (you get the gist), and so on. In fact, let me ask the simple counter-question. What other good MMO PvP can you think off where you can make multiple mistakes, fail to use your defenses at all, and still not die? Because as far as I can tell, across all the big and medium ones, no such game exists. > > > LMAO. > > > Are you serious ? > > > Wow is only a op class rotation every patch on top of carrying gear. Their cheesy arena and balance is one of the main reason I stop playing their game. > > > BDO is a p2w or no life farming game is you want to perfom in high level PvP. > > > Other are basically at the same activities than gw2, even worst. > > > > About the answer I expected. Sadly for you, those are the ones that are considered good. Much as Im not the biggest fan of WoW, its still the biggest PvP scene in MMOs. And the ones considered ok, like Albion. You also failed to answer the counterquestion. Which MMO can you think of that *isnt* like that. Because I listed pretty much every MMO with an actual PvP scene off. It doesnt get better further down the line either, not with stuff like SWTOR, Dragon Nest, Aion, etc. etc.. It seems you just dont like MMO PvP. Maybe try a different genre? > No you consider it good if you want, but they are kinda bad and way more gear carried. And lol about "their" pvp scene. And yet you havent shown me a single PvP MMO that you think is good. One that caters to your idea of unkillable unless outnumbered. Because they dont exist. As I said, it just seems like you dont like MMO PvP. You should try a different genre. Maybe Arena Brawlers? > > > And on top of that on thoses game, even with the same gear/farming level, you can't end a fight on 5 sec. > > > > If the enemy screws up majorly? Yeah you can. Its not hard, either. Of course, if they *dont* screw up, not so much, but if the players didnt screw up in GW2 before, you also couldnt, not without outnumbering. And outnumbering is also effective for that in other MMOs. So yeah, so much for that. > No you can't Do you really want me to show you oneshot builds in all of those, or just regular gameplay in the case of BDO? Its timeconsuming, but its not exactly hard. Then again, you would just ignore it, wouldnt you? > > > > > > > Another thingie: High Damage Skill = Big Shiny Animation Effect + Cast time(atleast >1s) = minimum 10~20s cd; otherwise if high damage skills have almost none animatio n or it's below 1s cast time, it's cooldown should be minimum of 40s atleast. You should work for your kill, it shouldn't be given for free because you facerolled on keyboard like that was the case on pre-balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except that *wasnt* the case on pre-balance. If you facerolled on your keyboard the enemy 100% of the time lived, and then you 100% of the time died. You *never* got any kills for free unless the enemy was terrible. You had to work for your kill. Unlike right now, where the only time you get a kill is when youre outnumbering them, which you obviously didnt work for. Its also funny that you think high cooldowns improves the game in any way. Here is the thing: Increasing cooldown doesnt make the game more interesting or tactical, it just means there are larger periods of time where youre just waiting for cooldowns while slapping them with autos. > > > > > Lol, Go back to the vid, see the "hard work" to get kill. It's just target, count the evade, burst then switch to next target should the burst fail or not. Such fun. > > > > > > > > Are you talking about when Sindrener outnumbers people? Because outnumbering will always have that aspect, its kinda the point. But go back and look at 1v1s around that time, and you will see that the people who faceroll die every single time, and those who time their skills, and set up their attacks always win. That is what high skill gameplay looks like. > > > Yeah such high skill counting a block or an evade before bursting. Mean not even about him but that how can be resumed our high skill. > > > > Its funny how you try rephrasing "timing and setting up skills" in a way that obscures that its just that, in a desperate attempt to salvage your position. Sadly, that trick really just doesnt work. Its still timing and setting up. Lets ignore that you ignore all classes that dont burst. Even then, you forgot both that you have to get the enemy to use his defensive cooldowns in an inefficient manner, and of course the fact that you have to stop them from executing their gameplan. Now *that* sounds like skillful gameplay to me. As opposed to know where its "spam everything off cooldown and use knockback to decap the point while waiting for reinforcements". > Yeah it's surely very skillfull when on the side of thoses with many tools and counter. I mean, I admit, Engineer does have a lot of tools (a full traitline of em to be exact), but, again, that was not even a particularly good build pre-patch. And for that matter, my active defenses were not particularly high, since its core engineer that means you cant really use shield, so I just had the regular dodge button and Elixir S. I still was fine, because well-timed dodges with good CC options and the ability to crackback is enough. Well, relatively speaking, it was still not that good of a build since grenade damage wasnt great. > > > > > > > P.S. Currently sustain and few outliners need a shaves here and there. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I have explained, you will have to keep shaving healing everywhere until the meta goes from low-skill as it is right now, to *extremely* low-skill, as everyone just swaps to instant or near-instant cast skills to spam at the enemy because the damage will stick. It aint the solution. What we need is more damage. Right now damage is far lower than it has ever been in the games history, and with the current meta, we see why the damage was always higher before, because this meta is just Cele Ele meta, but way worse. > > > > > The meta was carrying and lowskill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not an argument, that is an assessment. An assessment that is wrong. The *current* meta is carrying and low-skill. The old meta was high-skill, and if you didnt have your gameplay down pat, you would die. Something you yourself should know quite well. > > > You just had to have more tools in your class that why some were overplayed. Now you still have this on few class but at last you can play, not only kitting on safe spot. > > > > You have said that a few times, but, reality just doesnt agree with you. Unlike now, *every* class was played pre-patch. And no, it had nothing to do with "having more tools in your class". If that were the case, we wouldnt have regularly seen 30 seconds to 1 minute fights. Seeing how that is past the point where most cooldowns recharge at least once. > No, not every class were played pre-patch and way less builds. Oh and now you try to argue like we didnt see every class be played pre-patch. Of course, thats bollocks. Lets go over them, yes? Revenant had Power Revenant and the occasional sage revenant, Guardian had Firebrands and burn guardian, and Warrior had Spellbreakers. The first 2 were in nearly every team, the last one was still very common but more of a secondary choice. For the medium, Ranger had Boonbeast and Sic em sniper (Boonbeast was better), Engineer had Holo obviously (Gadget and Prot), and thief had D/P core, S/D core, S/P DD and the occasional P/D core. The last 2 were in nearly every team, the first was about as common as spellbreaker. Finally, Necro had Core Condi Necro and the occasional Scourge and Reaper, Mesmer had Condi mirage and the occasional power Mirage, and Elementalist had fire and water weaver. The last 2 were in nearly every team, the first was on the level of spellbreaker, so still common. Whats that? Every class was viable and with multiple builds? Shocking. Well, not really. If you played the game, you wouldve known this. Lets look at it now, shall we? Revenant has power herald, condi herald and the occasional renegade. Pretty good. Guardian has Firebrand. Warrior is not viable. The first 2 are in nearly every team, though Guardian gets swapped out. Next, Ranger has core power ranger, engineer has explosive holo, thief has D/P thief. The last is in every team, the first 2 are interchangably in every team. And then, Necro has core necro and Reaper, Mesmer isnt viable, Elementalist has tempest. The first is pretty common, the last is in nearly every team (interchangable with Firebrand). So, 7/9 classes are viable. And most classes have just the one viable build. Revenant being the big exception. Yeah this is way worse. > > > > > Mean we should had a mota prepatch and after patch just for loling comparison. > > > > > > > > And what exactly would you have tried to learn from that? Its a tournament, by definition its not going to be able to say anything about population. Sure, we wouldve seen the massive gap between the old high-skill meta and the current low-skill meta, and definitely wouldnt have seen the most skillful thing in a game be synchronised dancing, but something tells me that *that* isnt what you wouldve wanted to see. > > > > > > Did you just write that the argument you spam "look at mota " isn't representative of the population like I write it to you ? > > > > Nope. But nice try. Its extremely dishonest, as you seem to usually be, but at least its the tiniest bit clever. No what I said is that a tournament doesnt say anything about *population*. Or, in other words, it says nothing about *how many players still play*. Of course the tournament says *a lot* about what those who still play are playing, and about the meta, its a tournament. > Yeah so your "look at mota, tank everywhere" can be put where I think. > Can you not read? Its bad for measuring how big the population is. But it is a perfect reflection of the meta. Because its a tournament. The tournament always reflects the meta because the meta is just what is the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 @"UNOwen.7132" and @"viquing.8254" are currently engaged in a 1v1 on the PvP Subforum's side node. Looks like they're going to be here for a while. Let's move over to the team fight on mid and see if anything is happening there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" and @"viquing.8254" are currently engaged in a 1v1 on the PvP Subforum's side node. Looks like they're going to be here for a while. Like move over to the team fight on mid and see what's happening there. when is stillness spawning, so they both can sync dance together! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down. Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down. > > Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant. I mean of course they died to being outnumbered, thats how it works. Thing is, thats the only way they died. And if they were in a position where neither team was going to outnumber them, well you get the synchronised Sylvari dancing. Also, tactics were extremely important before the patch too. Its just that micro, or mechanical skill, wasnt basically irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 We already had this kind of people whining about chees from other while playing full of tools class. I'm pretty experienced with this. @"UNOwen.7132" : I already answer about your only argument mota setup. I will record one of my game just for you to see how it's not a "tank" meta because I'm bored of your cycle from someone who don't play. You post many message on thief forum to buff them, you don't want to share us your class ratio, neither could give us some proove about what you really play but you are a "core grenade engi", yeah yeah yeah, you are probably the only one thinking this here. You can continue lying if you want, I don't care, it just explain why you get so mad post patch. So you don't play thief but you want him being up, you love so much facing thieves with core grenade engi ? Proof mean: you say something, you have to proove it. Particulary when many things contradicts what you want us to trust. It's not about the fact that I don't like core PU burst build, it's about the fact that : 1) it resume a burst or nothing gameplay who take place in a burts where other class had burst AND other things. 2) It don't remember him winning a mAt with it. Should I precise the link is about firsts matchs ? Not only thief was a problem, many meta builds had, like @"apharma.3741" try to explain to you, basically everything in one package : sustain, damage, mobility, boons, CC... That's why a rework was needed. Mean chuck norris vs chuck norris fight had their limits. About everyone access to dodge button, thanks to go on it, you had perma vigor class with even some with endurance regen tied in skills while other hadn't, same for other sustain options uptime. I will not show a single PvP MMO that I think it had a good PvP because I don't know any. Whereas for what I know on the game you listed, they clearle aren't PvP balance reference IMO. I'mp retty curious seeing a oneshot on BDO from same gear/level opponents yeah beacause vids tagged "one shot" are overlevel/geared players killing less geared/level players. > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" and @"viquing.8254" are currently engaged in a 1v1 on the PvP Subforum's side node. Looks like they're going to be here for a while. Let's move over to the team fight on mid and see if anything is happening there. I just hate people who talk for everyone like if it was an evidence everyone should think like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 @"viquing.8254" I just started ignoring that thief main, he needs to learn to admit that he is wrong, everyone is wrong sometimes, but refusing to accept it and just pushing into lies is going too far. As for BDO, from what little I played and watched, everyone 1shot everything, when evenly geared. Fights came down to who landed CC first and 1shot you during it, so classes with better ways to CC or better mobility were better. Defense in bdo doesnt scale very well, and the fact that damage is needed for grinding almost everyone just puts all their money into dps, meaning everyone 1shots each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"viquing.8254" I just started ignoring that thief main, he needs to learn to admit that he is wrong, everyone is wrong sometimes, but refusing to accept it and just pushing into lies is going too far. > > As for BDO, from what little I played and watched, everyone 1shot everything, when evenly geared. Fights came down to who landed CC first and 1shot you during it, so classes with better ways to CC or better mobility were better. > Defense in bdo doesnt scale very well, and the fact that damage is needed for grinding almost everyone just puts all their money into dps, meaning everyone 1shots each other. Ok I probably don't go far enough on BDO then to figure it out, I stopped when realizing the amount of farm needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > We already had this kind of people whining about chees from other while playing full of tools class. I'm pretty experienced with this. > > @"UNOwen.7132" : > I already answer about your only argument mota setup. I will record one of my game just for you to see how it's not a "tank" meta because I'm bored of your cycle from someone who don't play. > You post many message on thief forum to buff them, you don't want to share us your class ratio, neither could give us some proove about what you really play but you are a "core grenade engi", yeah yeah yeah, you are probably the only one thinking this here. You can continue lying if you want, I don't care, it just explain why you get so mad post patch. > So you don't play thief but you want him being up, you love so much facing thieves with core grenade engi ? > Proof mean: you say something, you have to proove it. Particulary when many things contradicts what you want us to trust. > It's not about the fact that I don't like core PU burst build, it's about the fact that : > 1) it resume a burst or nothing gameplay who take place in a burts where other class had burst AND other things. > 2) It don't remember him winning a mAt with it. Should I precise the link is about firsts matchs ? > > Not only thief was a problem, many meta builds had, like @"apharma.3741" try to explain to you, basically everything in one package : sustain, damage, mobility, boons, CC... > That's why a rework was needed. Mean chuck norris vs chuck norris fight had their limits. > > About everyone access to dodge button, thanks to go on it, you had perma vigor class with even some with endurance regen tied in skills while other hadn't, same for other sustain options uptime. > > I will not show a single PvP MMO that I think it had a good PvP because I don't know any. Whereas for what I know on the game you listed, they clearle aren't PvP balance reference IMO. I'mp retty curious seeing a oneshot on BDO from same gear/level opponents yeah beacause vids tagged "one shot" are overlevel/geared players killing less geared/level players. > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" and @"viquing.8254" are currently engaged in a 1v1 on the PvP Subforum's side node. Looks like they're going to be here for a while. Let's move over to the team fight on mid and see if anything is happening there. > > I just hate people who talk for everyone like if it was an evidence everyone should think like them. > > On BDO even players going against one another at the top 1% of gear score will one shot each other. Like @"Leonidrex.5649" pointed out, despite not having a terrible large amount of experience by their own words, they were pretty accurate in that estimation. AP (the attack stat) scaling on BDO is significantly better than how DP (the defense stat) scales. They *tried* to remedy the issue with a new system a couple of years ago but it only ended up making AP even stronger than it was so they got rid of it. As for good MMO PvP, that is a completely subjective point. It can change based on any one individuals tastes or current likes/dislikes, and especially so based on their bias. For instance, I used to have an egregious distaste for any form of tab target MMORPG (BDO sorta spoils you with how its combat system works), I felt that they were abhorrent, old fashioned and just boring and thats coming from someone who has **grown up** on MMORPGs so that was the only combat system I had ever really been exposed to. Thats why I gravitated towards BDO, or TERA and even GW2 because it was a sort of hybrid of tab target and aiming, especially after adding the action camera. So ultimately how it is perceived can change. GW2, at the moment, does not have good PvP as an MMORPG. Now that doesn't necessarily have to do with the current state of balance, that shifts and ebbs and flows all the time. Or at least it should...but thats sort of the problem. It **doesn't**. The February patch was the only patch since PoF **released** that actually did anything to shift balance in any discernibly significant way. That is a **good** thing, however the state in which things were put in, and where they currently rest, are *not* good. That isn't to say before was better...I don't like the before either just as much as I don't like *now*. Both are terrible, but they are terrible for different reasons. However, what is **consistent** between both "eras" of balance is that GW2 PvP **is not good** because it does not promote an actual healthy PvP environment. Now what I mean by that is that sPvP, Ranked and ATs, are both a tragedy of PvP content. WvW as well is also within itself a tragedy as PvP content. Both of these things have seen *neglect* by ANet and the current state of balance, and the persisting state of balance, are all indicative ANet's neglect of PvP. Its like PvP is this afterthought, almost as if they think of it as a burden on the game because of how their hopes and dreams of a long lasting E-sports relationship with the community and ESL were scattered after ESL *yeeted* itself away from GW2. Now why would they do that? Surely GW2's combat system itself has enough of a requirement for skill as any other game, even tab target MMOs like WoW that still see *consistent* esports tournament participation in both PvP and **PvE** of all things. Granted they hold their own as opposed to ESL doing it, but that also implies their players have an actual interest in it and the company is willing to comply and even take advantage of that interest. ANet and how they have handled PvP has been...a downward spiral, and all this time they have *not one single time* admitted to needing to handle it better. They have not admitted fault, they have not admitted that they need to do **better** at it, and many other things for that matter. Its always some line of "Hey we're working on this thing!" or "We're very excited about upcoming stuff!" or some other PR laced statement where they don't take responsibility for what they, ultimately, have done to their game (just as a sidenote as well, the devs for Warframe rather consistently speak up and admit fault when they release an update that is far too buggy or hasn't measured up to what it should have been). You can even see it in how many bots litter sPvP, and for how long they have been doing so. How very little people even take Ranked or ATs seriously, and how the leaderboard is *worthless* as a gauge for the PvP environment. How the video game company handles and views their own game, or an aspect of it, reflects right back onto the community. ANet needs to do better. Not just for themselves, but for their game and for their community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > We already had this kind of people whining about chees from other while playing full of tools class. I'm pretty experienced with this. > > @"UNOwen.7132" : > I already answer about your only argument mota setup. I will record one of my game just for you to see how it's not a "tank" meta because I'm bored of your cycle from someone who don't play. No, you didnt. Nor did you explain why high ladder looks the same as MotA. Or how you intend to kill the same builds the best players couldnt kill without outnumbering. In fact, you even admitted yourself multiple times that *you just dont see the meta*. Of course you dont see that damage is too low when you dont face the meta. > You post many message on thief forum to buff them, you don't want to share us your class ratio, neither could give us some proove about what you really play but you are a "core grenade engi", yeah yeah yeah, you are probably the only one thinking this here. You can continue lying if you want, I don't care, it just explain why you get so mad post patch. Just because I dont play the class anymore doesnt mean that I dont have any attachment to it. My PvE main is still a thief, and it is still a class I played for a few years. Though if you looked more closely, you would also notice that I said that I wanted thief to be a good duelist, but also know that it cant be as long as shortbow 5 exists, and Im not selfish enough to take that away from those who enjoy shortbow 5. Im also not sure why you think class ratio is a good metric. Yeah I mained thief for, hm, 4 or 5 years, and only started going all-in on Engineer the last 2 years. Now, I know doing this is pointless. Youre too dishonest to accept the truth. But lets look at my [match history](https://imgur.com/a/finsLhu), hm? Oh my, whats that? Not a single thief in sight, and 10 games of Core Grenade Engineer? Im shocked, *shocked* I tell you. Well, actually Im not shocked at all. The only reason you wanted it to be a lie is because if it wasnt, your ad hominem fails, and youre left with nothing. Oh and fun fact: If you were to scroll down to the last 100 games, the only ones that arent core grenade engineer would be 2 power rev games, 6 or so holosmith games and 3 warrior games. The last thief game mustve been, hm. Probably end of 2018? I think its around that time I stopped caring for the class and just switched to Engineer. Mostly Holo sadly, I admit core grenade engineer was not something I was comfortable with at first. > So you don't play thief but you want him being up, you love so much facing thieves with core grenade engi ? I want thief to be underpowered? Are you contradicting yourself? Anyway, yeah I dont mind thieves as core grenade engineer. If they +1 me, Ill usually die, but thats how +1ing works. If theyre stupid enough to duel me, I just take the free win. > Proof mean: you say something, you have to proove it. Particulary when many things contradicts what you want us to trust. And yet you have yet to point out a *single* contradiction. On the other hand, I have pointed out many in yours. Besides, I have already proven quite enough. You have yet to prove anything. Maybe take your own advice? > It's not about the fact that I don't like core PU burst build, it's about the fact that : > 1) it resume a burst or nothing gameplay who take place in a burts where other class had burst AND other things. > 2) It don't remember him winning a mAt with it. Should I precise the link is about firsts matchs ? > Its literally in the video. Notice how it says Grand Finals [here]( )? They win the match. So, I guess you havent given up on lying. > Not only thief was a problem, many meta builds had, like @"apharma.3741" try to explain to you, basically everything in one package : sustain, damage, mobility, boons, CC... > That's why a rework was needed. Mean chuck norris vs chuck norris fight had their limits. > They didnt. Different classes were good at different things. And no, no rework was needed, and as we can tell now, a rework actually made the game far worse. > About everyone access to dodge button, thanks to go on it, you had perma vigor class with even some with endurance regen tied in skills while other hadn't, same for other sustain options uptime. > That is besides the point. The point was everyone had the dodge button. If you spammed, you lost to the dodge button. So your idea of "everyone just spammed" was completely wrong. Thats how it works now. > I will not show a single PvP MMO that I think it had a good PvP because I don't know any. Whereas for what I know on the game you listed, they clearle aren't PvP balance reference IMO. I'mp retty curious seeing a oneshot on BDO from same gear/level opponents yeah beacause vids tagged "one shot" are overlevel/geared players killing less geared/level players. > As I said, it sounds like you just dont like MMO PvP, because some of those are definitely considered good. Just try a different genre. And take a look at any PvP video. As soon as someone screws up, they die from full health in seconds. Of course, they have to screw up first, but that was the caveat, wasnt it? > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" and @"viquing.8254" are currently engaged in a 1v1 on the PvP Subforum's side node. Looks like they're going to be here for a while. Let's move over to the team fight on mid and see if anything is happening there. > > I just hate people who talk for everyone like if it was an evidence everyone should think like them. > Says the guy who talks for everyone. Ive actually explained why the meta is bad, your argument boils down to "its good because I say its good". Besides, youre free to think whatever you want. Just as I am free to point out when youre wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"viquing.8254" I just started ignoring that thief main, he needs to learn to admit that he is wrong, everyone is wrong sometimes, but refusing to accept it and just pushing into lies is going too far. > Says the guy who *starts* with the lie of "Thief main". And who has lied repeatedly before. The only one who refuses to accept they are wrong sometimes is you, especially after you tripled down on the fabricated screenshots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 @"UNOwen.7132" * Finally you link some proove, thanks for this match history which even if you didn't play much game, prove something. Dunno why it was so hard linking this 10 post ago, you would not need to write 50 more lines about this. >Says the guy who talks for everyone. Ive actually explained why the meta is bad, your argument boils down to "its good because I say its good". Besides, youre free to think whatever you want. Just as I am free to point out when youre wrong. Wut ? My first intervention was going here saying I think it's better than before then you jump on me because it's not you vision. Did you just watch the mes participation in the said "grand final" lol. But ok at last they win 1 final with this. Now here we go, today 4 games, 2 wins, 2 loses, just raw recording, no montage. Putting appart the skill after 10 hours of work and 40 °C in the room, did this really look like a tank meta ? And don't start gleaning about outnumbered, I'm on a +1 build. IMO we aren't in a tank meta with everyone and his mother unkillable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" * > > Finally you link some proove, thanks for this match history which even if you didn't play much game, prove something. Dunno why it was so hard linking this 10 post ago, you would not need to write 50 more lines about this. > Because its not "proof" of anything. And because I didnt want to humour your ad hominem, and valide it as a tactic. But I admit, your stubbornness and dishonesty managed to even break my patience. > >Says the guy who talks for everyone. Ive actually explained why the meta is bad, your argument boils down to "its good because I say its good". Besides, youre free to think whatever you want. Just as I am free to point out when youre wrong. > Wut ? My first intervention was going here saying I think it's better than before then you jump on me because it's not you vision. > Ah, revisionism. Our first interaction was on page 4. After you attacked Psycoprophet for saying the old meta was better and made grandiose statements with not even the slightest sliver of truth in them. So, thats another thing to throw on the pile. > Did you just watch the mes participation in the said "grand final" lol. But ok at last they win 1 final with this. > Moving the goalposts. But yes, I did watch the participation. He was quite important as the big source of burst to take down primary targets. I imagine what you were referring to was the major miscalculation at the start that almost kills him. > Now here we go, today 4 games, 2 wins, 2 loses, just raw recording, no montage. > Putting appart the skill after 10 hours of work and 40 °C in the room, did this really look like a tank meta ? > And don't start gleaning about outnumbered, I'm on a +1 build. > > > > > > IMO we aren't in a tank meta with everyone and his mother unkillable. You truly have a knack for finding videos that prove yourself wrong. Of course, as I said, if you outnumber, you kill. Thats the case, even in a tank meta. So since you try to outnumber, what *you* see is people dying to being outrotated, but without any skill involved since +1ing is just an easy kill. But pay attention to the rest of the map. In the first game, at around 3:50, the necro joins your ranger on far in a 1v1. The ranger gets a good knockback on him after a while allowing him to finish capping, but clearly neither of them is anywhere close to dying. This continues for a full minute of a standard sidenoder stalemate where only knockbacks matter, until the necros revenant joins him and outnumbers. Then later at 6:50 we get another such fight, this time with the guardian. This too becomes a stalemate until the Revenant +1s again. Then at 8:17, the Ranger goes for a third time, this time the fight lasts even longer. Then it becomes a 2v2 that also stalemates, until the Druid decides to dip, the ranger gets outnumbered and dies. The other videos are no different. Hell in the third one you show up to break up a fight that has stalemated, and fail to kill the enemy. Its the same thing every time. Without outnumbering, no one ever dies. But this does shed some light on why you have such a skewed perception of the meta, and why you prefer it. Because now +1ing is the only thing that gets people killed. Since you play a +1 class, the fact that youre literally the key to all kills, and the fact that when outnumbering, even if you mess up you cant die is heavily in your favour. Try playing a sidenoder, and you will see that your perspective is completely wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 For me a tank meta is when someone can facetank on point, even during a time while being +1 ing or has the ability to perma kite 1v2, which wasn't the case here. Remember all chronotank meta who were tank meta, or even old SB. I will do more vids playing sidenoder then but ofc I will drop damage for sidenode which is normal as having to choose between high damage +1 or less damage sidenode is what should be in a normal situation. Not everyone does everything. It's normal for sidenoders to have the sustain and lack of damage to do the said sidenode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > For me a tank meta is when someone can facetank on point, even during a time while being +1 ing or has the ability to perma kite 1v2, which wasn't the case here. Such a meta wouldnt exist. It never existed. Even Cele Ele couldnt well hold a 1v2. So you basically define only an impossible meta as a tank meta. Sure, if you use that definition, fair enough, its just a useless definition. > Remember all chronotank meta who were tank meta, or even old SB. Chrono Bunker, while very tanky, could not survive a +1 without running away. The only one that could, briefly, was prot holo after the patch, before it got nerfed. > I will do more vids playing sidenoder then but ofc I will drop damage for sidenode which is normal as having to choose between high damage +1 or less damage sidenode is what should be in a normal situation. Not everyone does everything. It's normal for sidenoders to have the sustain and lack of damage to do the said sidenode. > No, its not normal. Do you understand what youre saying? Youre basically saying "its normal for the only useful thing sidenoders can do to be knockbacks, and standing on the point". No, whats normal is when a sidenoder fights another sidenoder, and one of them manages to either kill the other one, or force them to retreat. A +1 should only accelerate that process, not be mandatory for the process. Youre basically telling every sidenoder "fuck you if you want to actually have skillful 1v1s, now just sit there and wait for *me* to do all the important work". But hey, at least you finally admitted that the biggest problem with the current meta is there, even if you are too blind to see it as a problem. Edit: I also find it telling that you see "being able to kill someone solo" as "doing everything". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down. > > > > Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant. > > I mean of course they died to being outnumbered, thats how it works. Thing is, thats the only way they died. And if they were in a position where neither team was going to outnumber them, well you get the synchronised Sylvari dancing. Also, tactics were extremely important before the patch too. Its just that micro, or mechanical skill, wasnt basically irrelevant. They didn't just die to being +1, match ups made a difference in a lot of games where you want to swap your side noders out as one scales better in a fight or has a better match up and the game is going in your favour. Rotations and positioning of fights, whether you go 2 node or 3 node, loads of factors were present in the MotA which you wouldn't have seen pre Feb. We know this because we saw it in the monthly AT. One of the problems with the "bunker meta" isn't just a numbers game, it's that they're much easier to play than they are to be killed and condi rev is probably the best example of this which also contributes to the "condi meta" idea. Make the side noders more skilful like current mirage needs and you'd see everyone complaining of a zerg meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down. > > > > > > Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant. > > > > I mean of course they died to being outnumbered, thats how it works. Thing is, thats the only way they died. And if they were in a position where neither team was going to outnumber them, well you get the synchronised Sylvari dancing. Also, tactics were extremely important before the patch too. Its just that micro, or mechanical skill, wasnt basically irrelevant. > > They didn't just die to being +1, match ups made a difference in a lot of games where you want to swap your side noders out as one scales better in a fight or has a better match up and the game is going in your favour. Rotations and positioning of fights, whether you go 2 node or 3 node, loads of factors were present in the MotA which you wouldn't have seen pre Feb. We know this because we saw it in the monthly AT. > They died just to being outnumbered. We saw what the sidenoder "fights" looked like. Honestly the best one was the 2 Sylvari synchronised dancing around Tranquility because they both knew there was no point at all in fighting. Anyway, yes, rotation is a big thing now, because +1s are the only way you kill people. Here is the thing. Those were also there pre-february. In fact, they were just as important as right now. Its just that unlike right now, they werent the *only* important thing. We just lost micro skill entirely, while gaining nothing. And as a result, sidenoding has become dreadfully unfun. Even with the enjoyment that grenades always bring, Im not fond of just sitting there waiting for my thief to come around and make me able to kill the enemy. > One of the problems with the "bunker meta" isn't just a numbers game, it's that they're much easier to play than they are to be killed and condi rev is probably the best example of this which also contributes to the "condi meta" idea. Make the side noders more skilful like current mirage needs and you'd see everyone complaining of a zerg meta. Its not really that theyre easier to play. Some of them are, but I wouldnt say that Holo is particularly easy to play. The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die. Sidenoders arent skillful because they only have 2 jobs right now. 1, knockback the enemy, and 2, avoid being knockbacked yourself. Everything else doesnt matter, and since both of those tend to stalemate as well, you just see sidenoders messing around waiting for reinforcements. Even if the sidenoders were technically harder builds to play optimally, it wouldnt change a thing, because you dont need to play optimally. The biggest difference would just be that the worse players get knocked back a bit more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down. > > > > > > > > Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant. > > > > > > I mean of course they died to being outnumbered, thats how it works. Thing is, thats the only way they died. And if they were in a position where neither team was going to outnumber them, well you get the synchronised Sylvari dancing. Also, tactics were extremely important before the patch too. Its just that micro, or mechanical skill, wasnt basically irrelevant. > > > > They didn't just die to being +1, match ups made a difference in a lot of games where you want to swap your side noders out as one scales better in a fight or has a better match up and the game is going in your favour. Rotations and positioning of fights, whether you go 2 node or 3 node, loads of factors were present in the MotA which you wouldn't have seen pre Feb. We know this because we saw it in the monthly AT. > > > > They died just to being outnumbered. We saw what the sidenoder "fights" looked like. Honestly the best one was the 2 Sylvari synchronised dancing around Tranquility because they both knew there was no point at all in fighting. Anyway, yes, rotation is a big thing now, because +1s are the only way you kill people. Here is the thing. Those were also there pre-february. In fact, they were just as important as right now. Its just that unlike right now, they werent the *only* important thing. We just lost micro skill entirely, while gaining nothing. And as a result, sidenoding has become dreadfully unfun. Even with the enjoyment that grenades always bring, Im not fond of just sitting there waiting for my thief to come around and make me able to kill the enemy. > > > One of the problems with the "bunker meta" isn't just a numbers game, it's that they're much easier to play than they are to be killed and condi rev is probably the best example of this which also contributes to the "condi meta" idea. Make the side noders more skilful like current mirage needs and you'd see everyone complaining of a zerg meta. > > Its not really that theyre easier to play. Some of them are, but I wouldnt say that Holo is particularly easy to play. The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die. Sidenoders arent skillful because they only have 2 jobs right now. 1, knockback the enemy, and 2, avoid being knockbacked yourself. Everything else doesnt matter, and since both of those tend to stalemate as well, you just see sidenoders messing around waiting for reinforcements. Even if the sidenoders were technically harder builds to play optimally, it wouldnt change a thing, because you dont need to play optimally. The biggest difference would just be that the worse players get knocked back a bit more often. I guess you only watched the NA vs NA games then /shrug. "The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die." This is a skill issue. Thank you for agreeing. You should be punished for making major mistakes especially multiple times but they aren't because the skill floor is relatively low and the skill ceiling isn't that much higher. As I said, if a lot of side noders required the same skill as mirages require to even hold the node you wouldn't hear much complaining about "bunker meta" anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > I don't miss builds literally having everything in 1 package. Many of the people who loved pre Feb patch were playing extremely strong classes which had few weaknesses. Think about it, how many condi builds performed well and why? Yeah the ones that literally looked at you and hit you with 4+ conditions. How many "side noders" performed well? Yeah the ones with 4+ cleanse on one button and very low cool down 2 or more cleanse buttons. Go through all the classes and look at all the skills, specs and weapons used, the one common separator for them was whether they were overloaded or stupidly low cool down. > > > > > > > > > > Is this perfect? No and it's a shame ANet has retreated into it's shell half way through a major project holding the balance team back instead of letting them get the pace and approximate strength of roles in the right place. This is why you have "condispam" and "bunker everywhere" viewpoints as these are easier to play and much more rewarding but haven't had the sharp tuning down/slight increase to other roles to balance out the risk/reward. Yet look at the MotA games, they were very good, players actually died very quickly to coordinated attacks and tactics became a lot more relevant, it was night and day between those who could rotate and those who were used to the power creep rendering tactics largely irrelevant. > > > > > > > > I mean of course they died to being outnumbered, thats how it works. Thing is, thats the only way they died. And if they were in a position where neither team was going to outnumber them, well you get the synchronised Sylvari dancing. Also, tactics were extremely important before the patch too. Its just that micro, or mechanical skill, wasnt basically irrelevant. > > > > > > They didn't just die to being +1, match ups made a difference in a lot of games where you want to swap your side noders out as one scales better in a fight or has a better match up and the game is going in your favour. Rotations and positioning of fights, whether you go 2 node or 3 node, loads of factors were present in the MotA which you wouldn't have seen pre Feb. We know this because we saw it in the monthly AT. > > > > > > > They died just to being outnumbered. We saw what the sidenoder "fights" looked like. Honestly the best one was the 2 Sylvari synchronised dancing around Tranquility because they both knew there was no point at all in fighting. Anyway, yes, rotation is a big thing now, because +1s are the only way you kill people. Here is the thing. Those were also there pre-february. In fact, they were just as important as right now. Its just that unlike right now, they werent the *only* important thing. We just lost micro skill entirely, while gaining nothing. And as a result, sidenoding has become dreadfully unfun. Even with the enjoyment that grenades always bring, Im not fond of just sitting there waiting for my thief to come around and make me able to kill the enemy. > > > > > One of the problems with the "bunker meta" isn't just a numbers game, it's that they're much easier to play than they are to be killed and condi rev is probably the best example of this which also contributes to the "condi meta" idea. Make the side noders more skilful like current mirage needs and you'd see everyone complaining of a zerg meta. > > > > Its not really that theyre easier to play. Some of them are, but I wouldnt say that Holo is particularly easy to play. The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die. Sidenoders arent skillful because they only have 2 jobs right now. 1, knockback the enemy, and 2, avoid being knockbacked yourself. Everything else doesnt matter, and since both of those tend to stalemate as well, you just see sidenoders messing around waiting for reinforcements. Even if the sidenoders were technically harder builds to play optimally, it wouldnt change a thing, because you dont need to play optimally. The biggest difference would just be that the worse players get knocked back a bit more often. > > I guess you only watched the NA vs NA games then /shrug. > Nah, I watched the EU games most. Yknow, stuff like Obindo and the enemy rev fighting around Tranquility for 7 minutes without anyone dying. Or hell, Obindos MOTA montage which shows exactly 0 clips of him solo-killing anyone. This is a montage, with the most exciting clips selected, and there isnt one of him solo-killing anyone, because it didnt happen. A few good instant stunbreaks vs knockback though, which is nice, but its sad that that is what sidenoding devolved to. > "The problem is because you can make multiple major mistakes, and you still wont die." This is a skill issue. Thank you for agreeing. You should be punished for making major mistakes especially multiple times but they aren't because the skill floor is relatively low and the skill ceiling isn't that much higher. > Thats not why they arent punished. A low skill floor just means mistakes are less easy to make. No, they arent punished because, if they screw up, what exactly do you do? You cant kill them. The damage just plain isnt there. If you knock them back you decap the point, but thats already happening, and as I said, its not fun. > As I said, if a lot of side noders required the same skill as mirages require to even hold the node you wouldn't hear much complaining about "bunker meta" anymore. Sure, if you put it like that. Problem is, the only way to do that is to bring back a *lot* of damage. Frankly, damage should *never* be lower than pre-HoT specialisation patch at the *lowest*. Right now, it seems were about 20-30% lower than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted June 26, 2020 Share Posted June 26, 2020 Damage is waaay too low on 90% of builds and they're only nerfing damage every patch it seems so we're eventually going to get 0 kill games every high end ranked match. Anything that gives passive DR to anything or any passive HP restoration/regen via traits even if it's a proc need to be removed from PvP entirely. The only HoT healing in this game should be from regeneration, utilities, or weapon skills. The only burst healing in this game should only be from your heal skill, utilities, and weapon skills. Finally, the only form of DR in this game should come from weapon skills/utilities, protection, toughness, and resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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