What does Core Engineer Need to be More Viable to Match the Level of Elite Specs?

[Jaykay.9641]

Hi guys.

 

I've recently came back to GW2 at the end of last year after almost a 5 year hiatus. In my return, I've mainly been playing Rev and Engineer and trying to learn the in's and out's of each profession. I posted a thorough feedback thread about Rev [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/101125/returning-players-feedback-on-state-of-revenant), but now I'd just like to take a minute talk about Core Engineer in hopes it will create some discussion on Engineer and hopefully the feedback will reach some Devs.

 

My main feedback for Engineer is that Holo and Scrapper are virtually straight upgrades vs. Core Engineer. Yes, the Elite specs have the F5 tool belt ability replaced with their own set flavor, but in both cases, they feel like they are just both better in every way - lower CD's and multi-functional. This doesn't seem fair to me since I still play core Engineer but I feel I'm just handicapping myself. So I just wanted to list some ideas of what Core Engineer can receive that will offset the gains the Elite specs get.

 

I mainly play PvP/WvW, so my ideas may be biased toward these game modes. While Holo is currently the flavor of the month in PvP discussions (which discussion should go on in other threads), I still feel the way to balance the 3 Engi specs is to give Core Engi something more that will compete with the other 2. Meaning I'd like to see Core Engi receive some buffs that would be harder to give up as a trade off if you wanted to spec in to Scrapper or Holo.

 

So my ideas to change Core Engineer that will have to be a trade off for the Elite Specs are:

* **Core Engineer elite Tool Belt skill is replaced by one of the selectable Engineer Kits** (This is my personal favorite idea) - Scrapper and Holo already have the F5 replaced and the Core elite F5 tool belts aren't as powerful. We could give Core Engi access to one engineer kit at all times with the F5 skill that won't take up a utility slot. This gives Core Engi a "swap-able" weapon at all times since they cannot naturally swap weapons in combat. We also know the tech is there for Anet to swap F skills as Revenant has the pseudo drop down menu to replace Legends. This drop down menu could be used in the F5 skill to select an engineer kit. This option would give up the tool belt skill so the user would have to choose wisely (ex. if a player selects the Elixir Gun in the F5, they won't be able to use the stun break tool belt skill)

* **Give Core Engineer the ability to swap weapons in combat** - Since Core Engineer only has 2 main weapons with a choice between an offhand, this should be that much of a deal since both of them are in a pretty bad spot imo.

* **Significantly reduce the CD's on the elite skill tool belt abilities**(this seems like the easiest solution)- all 3 elite tool belt skills can be powerful, but the CD's are very long compared to the elite specs. Reducing these CD's will allow them to be used more and compete with Scrapper and Holo F5 mechanics.

* **Add a Core Engineer only weapon** - this seems very unlikely as no other core profession has an exclusive weapon.

 

Those are my ideas, what are yours? What do you think core Engi should gain that Scrapper and Holo have to give up if they go those directions? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

Thanks.

[Taril.8619]

Bring **Core Utilities** into the year 2020 instead of leaving them in 2012.

 

Bring **Core Specializations** into the year 2020 instead of leaving them in 2012.

 

That's Core Engie's main problem. You look at their utilities and 99% of them are outdated in design, made during a time when things like Boons were rare (All boons. Not just Quickness/Alacrity) and having extra utility skill usages from the Toolbelt actually meant something.

 

You also look at their Specializations and they're very 1 dimensional, with limited or even no synergy with any other specializations or their class mechanic. Going for a Core build relies upon having 3 Core Specializations you want to take. With Engie, at most you have 2 Specializations you'd put together with 0 synergy with any of the remaining 3.

 

For example, Explosives and Alchemy don't go well together because Explosives wants you to take utilities that provide Explosions while Alchemy wants you to take utilities that are Elixirs. What other class in the game has specializations that revolves around taking specific utilities? Only Revenant and that's because their thing is not being able to pick utilities because of the Legend system.

 

It's worth noting that yes, these changes will also impact E-Specs, but if done right then there should be situations where 3 Core Specs can match 2 Core + 1 E-Spec.

[Dawdler.8521]

In WvW I can match and beat elite specs fine on core, the nerfs to holo made their obscene damage and CC easier to handle and the pigeonholing of the scrapper has made it a very predictable fight. I'm really not feeling handicapped. Quite the contrary, I have something that both elites dont have - moa. And I flip them the bird *alot*. I find it highly ironic that OP is getting rid of it, basicly murdering the best elite core have in a straight fight. And it would definetly kill my spec... and I'm pretty much the only one I see playing core, so I feel somewhat targetted by this.

 

For PvP its different though, because scrapper is vastly superior at bunkering down which is all that matters on points, while in a straight up +1 the holo can stunlock you to death.

[Bingus.4236]

They should remove pistols and combine the better skills of pistol and rifle. Have a 1h hammer/mace instead or make flamethrower an actual weapon and free up a slot on the right (that would nerf scrapper though). The flamethrower is in effect the engineer's melee weapon and as soon as you get it, well the pistols become useless but you still keep the firearms spec for juggernaught. Especially when levelling and starting out as you get crap weapons. Personally, now I have elite specs, I only use a rifle to jump shot across places. Otherwise it's Hammer/Flamethower and Elite Mortar if I need long range.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Bingus.4236" said:

> They should remove pistols and combine the better skills of pistol and rifle. Have a 1h hammer/mace instead or make flamethrower an actual weapon and free up a slot on the right (that would nerf scrapper though). The flamethrower is in effect the engineer's melee weapon and as soon as you get it, well the pistols become useless but you still keep the firearms spec for juggernaught. Especially when levelling and starting out as you get kitten weapons. Personally, now I have elite specs, I only use a rifle to jump shot across places. Otherwise it's Hammer/Flamethower and Elite Mortar if I need long range.

Yeah that'll work *great* in WvW where everyone just stand still and invite you to a bit of fistycuffs in melee range.

 

That was sarcasm btw.

 

I just needed to make that clear because it would kill the class.

[swagolas.9732]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> In WvW I can match and beat elite specs fine on core, the nerfs to holo made their obscene damage and CC easier to handle and the pigeonholing of the scrapper has made it a very predictable fight. I'm really not feeling handicapped. Quite the contrary, I have something that both elites dont have - moa. And I flip them the bird *alot*. I find it highly ironic that OP is getting rid of it, basicly murdering the best elite core have in a straight fight. And it would definetly kill my spec... and I'm pretty much the only one I see playing core, so I feel somewhat targetted by this.

>

> For PvP its different though, because scrapper is vastly superior at bunkering down which is all that matters on points, while in a straight up +1 the holo can stunlock you to death.

 

I play only core engi now and when I cant bunker then I have much more mobility and with rocket boots its much better imho. Roaming is fun and with p/p + moa + tools + elixir gun its so strong in teamfights, even in some 1v1s its viable if enemy has no extra good condi cleanse.

[Kulvar.1239]

For any class, if you don't have at least 3 trait lines on par with elite trait lines, you'll ALWAYS be better using elite trait line instead of one of the core one.

If you have 3 trait lines on par with elite ones, then picking elite has an actual trade off.

[Jaruselka.5943]

They need to undo the nerfs that crippled pistols for Core engi only...and bringing back reflect wall to "Toss Elixir U" would be nice too!

[Bingus.4236]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Bingus.4236" said:

> > They should remove pistols and combine the better skills of pistol and rifle. Have a 1h hammer/mace instead or make flamethrower an actual weapon and free up a slot on the right (that would nerf scrapper though). The flamethrower is in effect the engineer's melee weapon and as soon as you get it, well the pistols become useless but you still keep the firearms spec for juggernaught. Especially when levelling and starting out as you get kitten weapons. Personally, now I have elite specs, I only use a rifle to jump shot across places. Otherwise it's Hammer/Flamethower and Elite Mortar if I need long range.

> Yeah that'll work *great* in WvW where everyone just stand still and invite you to a bit of fistycuffs in melee range.

>

> That was sarcasm btw.

>

> I just needed to make that clear because it would kill the class.

 

Well, I said make the rifle a bit better and have an option for a melee rather than have two weapons that are lack lustre in places and very similar. So I don't know what you think the suggestion would be taking away?

 

 

That's not sarcasm btw.

 

 

 

[Entropo.1524]

well just so u know Core engi is viable . a core engi condi is average . u can roam with core engi just fine its not that its weak . its cause holo outclass it in the dmg and mobility and . scraper might be an overall better support and realy cool for zergs . but i think core engi still does something that both elite specs cant do which is being a healer . altho engi healer doesnt have much utility and not much boons to give to the party its still has the highest base value of heals (according to my comparisons ) and engi can still e tanky and very mobile while doing so .

[Samug.6512]

Core engi needs more stability, outside of Elixirs, so we can test other fun trait lines except Alchemy, like.... oh, wait... only other core trait line that makes sense is Explosives.

 

All power engi builds use Elixirs and Alchemy, simply because those 2 are the most modern and up-to-date. All other trait lines are still almost direct inheritance of the old, old trait system, where one didn't need to select all tiers in a line. At this point I'd love to choose adept & master in firearms and adept in tools, in parallel to standard Alchemy/Explosives combo.

 

@"Cal Cohen.2358" @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" @"Butterfly Kingdom.8349" I fucking hope you ppl are reading and there's a fat balance patch coming tomorrow with a turrets, pistol & firearms rework, tools balance, next to that bloody useless festival. "More frequent balance patches" my ass.

 

[Chaith.8256]

Core Engi is lacking mostly because the core Traitlines in last place for Core Engineer (Tools, Inventions, Firearms) have very little synergy with Core Engi compared to elite specs. Instead, you can take a much better Elite Spec over of a very lackluster 3rd core traitline, and... that will actually increase traitline synergy with your other choices.

 

To illustrate my point:

 

Tools: Static Discharge, Optimized Activation, Kinetic Battery. These traits are for Holosmith to activate Photon Forge up to twice every 6 seconds, utilizing these traits twice as well as core/Scrapper.

 

Inventions: Overshield, Anti-Corrosion Plating. Again, what spec is able to optimally use a shield? Sword & Shield Holosmith. What specs are able to pulse protection for anti-corrosion plating? Reconstruction Field and Hard Light Arena, gated by elite specs.

 

Firearms: This traitline's damage modifiers like High Caliber & No Scope are both functional at =/<300 range. Scrapper & Holo yes, Core Engineer is the odd man out, not a close range damage dealer. Firearms just suffers in general from only adding a bit of damage and no other utility.

 

Many Core Engineer traits aren't even built for Core Engineer.. the Elite specs were made backwards-compatible to have good synergy with core Traits.

 

I would say that to make Core Engineer good there are 3 healthy ways:

 

Buff F5 skills, like OP suggested.

Buff specific kits/multi-kit builds that Holo and Scrapper can't use as well.

Increase core-only Synergy with traits.

 

The ideas are in my mega thread:

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/15746/how-to-balance-every-single-thing-thats-bad-on-engineer-pvp/p1?new=1

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> For example, Explosives and Alchemy don't go well together because Explosives wants you to take utilities that provide Explosions while Alchemy wants you to take utilities that are Elixirs. What other class in the game has specializations that revolves around taking specific utilities? Only Revenant and that's because their thing is not being able to pick utilities because of the Legend system.

 

Revenants aren't even as bad. Obviously, each traitline except Invocation is designed to go best with a particular legend, but outside of Salvation, there aren't that many traits that _require_ you to be using a particular legend to get full benefit from the trait. Corruption is rarely seen without using Mallyx because it's a condition-oriented line and Mallyx is the only core legend that is really oriented towards condition damage, but if for whatever reason you had a condi revenant who didn't use Mallyx, you could probably still find a good purpose for it.

 

Explosives... _really_ wants you to be using grenades and/or bombs. You can make it work without those kits, but it really is a matter of making it work rather than fully utilising it, and you're probably pretty much locked to 3-3-1 unless you're reasonably confident you can keep the enemy at enough of a distance to get your explosions out of Aim-Assisted Rocket.

 

Alchemy I don't think is as bad - I think the only trait in Alchemy that _really_ pushes you into having a lot of elixirs is HGH, and even that arguably pushes you to elixir gun as much as it does to actual elixirs.

 

[Chaith.8256]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> For example, Explosives and Alchemy don't go well together because Explosives wants you to take utilities that provide Explosions while Alchemy wants you to take utilities that are Elixirs.

 

Alchemy OFTEN is built to have a bar full of elixirs, but it is also flexible in that in can also be built to have none in a Purity of Purpose build, or even just use HgH to buff the traited elixirs, that's been done in the past.

 

Explosives doesn't require any utilities. If you went with the previous Elixir R variant of Explosives Holo and swapped Mortar for Elixir X, it'd be functional, for example. At most it's one utility, and then you can fill your 4 remaining utility slots with Elixirs if you so desire.

 

Definitely no reason to complain about Explosives/Alchemy, they're by far the most useful traitlines Engineer has.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Samug.6512" said:

> Core engi needs more stability

Does it really? It can get annoying when you get stunned frequently but engie has a fairly decent amount of active defenses, blocks, invouln, popping protection, etc... I dont really consider that as a significant handicap. I see it more as something akin to "necros dont have stealth". I mean you're not supposed to have *everything*, right? And that ignores the fact that you *can* build the engie with permastab (unlike any other class), it's just not that viable in pvp/wvw.

 

Anyway, fun thing that is only slightly related to the topic at hand:

 


 

[Samug.6512]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Samug.6512" said:

> > Core engi needs more stability

> Does it really? It can get annoying when you get stunned frequently but engie has a fairly decent amount of active defenses, blocks, invouln, popping protection, etc... I dont really consider that as a significant handicap. I see it more as something akin to "necros dont have stealth". I mean you're not supposed to have *everything*, right? And that ignores the fact that you *can* build the engie with permastab (unlike any other class), it's just not that viable in pvp/wvw.

>

> Anyway, fun thing that is only slightly related to the topic at hand:

>

> 

>

 

I should have clarified that I mean more sources of stability. At the moment core has only elixirs when it comes to stability, unless you sacrifice entire trait line for trash-tier Firearms and use Noodlethrower. Oh, and 1 second of Stability on Thumper Turret.

Any decent power engi will use Elixir U or Elixir B (or both, like a lot of holos in PvP; scrapper has a lot of stability on its own). And I find that extremely limiting for any kind

of build craft on core engi, coz utility skills are worth way too much.

[draxynnic.3719]

Run into the juggernaut scrapper build in sPvP lately? I have, and it can be difficult to deal with. More tanky than spiky, but the noodlethrower does enough to wear down condi builds while laughing at CC.

 

Doesn't help core engi, sure, since it's based around synergies between Firearms, Alchemy and Scrapper, but Firearms and Flamethrower aren't as trashy as you imply.

[wasss.1208]

The problem with core engineer in pvp, in my opinion: if you try to specialize in something, you'll be awful in every other aspect, if you try to make a do-it-all build, it will be just awful.

By this I mean: if I make a damage oriented build, I'll use rifle, 'nade, toolkit. This gives me burst and some damage, but still far away from other damage specs, and leaves me with only 1 utility slot to pick condi cleanse, stunbreak, or mobility.

If I try to make a build that has condi cleanse, stab/stunbreak, mobility, damage, the build will be just awful in everything at the same time.

 

I would say that this is because engi lacks: weapon swap, which forces it to run at least 1 kit, making buildcrafting harder. It also lacks good weapons, or a variety of them. There is no real long range option, no power mainhand, and the condi weapons are in dire need of quality of life inprovements.

 

As for traitlines: Inventions feels pretty anti-synergestic with the core profession itself, firearms feels like a passive stat-boost for power builds, and tools requires you to use gadgets, or SD focused utilities. All in all, those lines feel really lackluster.

[Ghos.1326]

Core Engineer needs a rework on Inventions. Its current iteration is really poor.

One example is its grandmaster minor trait, Energy Amplifier. It ups your healing power while you have regeneration on you. Good trait idea, but one problem; there is no regeneration gaining in the trait line itself, totally killing the possible synergies the trait line could have within itself.

Inventions is supposed to be a trait line focused on defense and healing, but it barely has any healing, and the only defense it has are a few things with higher cooldowns. compare it to warrior's defensive trait line, and it pales.

[mov.1246]

Holo and Scrapper are just straight upgrades to Core. And the reason is obvious:

 

Holo is a DPS machine in PvE at power and condition damage and superior to all other engi specs in DPS.

Holo is also the best choice in PvP because Holo mode gives you space to invest more in defensive traits and utility slots.

 

Scrapper can generate insane amount of barrier in open world PvE and is able to solo most champions.

Scrapper is also used for bruiser style in PvP because of its very defensive nature.

Scrapper is mainly taken for every heal/support build because of gyros and superspeed.

 

Every role engi could take are done better with elite specs. But how it could be solved? When you buff core engi, it will be also a buff to elites.

I think the only way is to give core engi a unique kit which is on F5, or buff all kits just for core.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"mov.1246" said:

> Holo and Scrapper are just straight upgrades to Core. And the reason is obvious:

>

> Holo is a DPS machine in PvE at power and condition damage and superior to all other engi specs in DPS.

> Holo is also the best choice in PvP because Holo mode gives you space to invest more in defensive traits and utility slots.

>

> Scrapper can generate insane amount of barrier in open world PvE and is able to solo most champions.

> Scrapper is also used for bruiser style in PvP because of its very defensive nature.

> Scrapper is mainly taken for every heal/support build because of gyros and superspeed.

>

> Every role engi could take are done better with elite specs. But how it could be solved? When you buff core engi, it will be also a buff to elites.

> I think the only way is to give core engi a unique kit which is on F5, or buff all kits just for core.

Then the real question is **why does core traits always get nerfed when people cry that holo and scrapper is OP?**

 

Because thats whats going to happen. We all know it. Alternativly they will "improve" a core traitline that completely deletes core specs while making scrapper/holo even stronger, or at worst doesnt affect them much. It happened to the scrapper traitline and apparently, despite some core specs now **not working** with scrapper due to power=barrier changes, people consider it a "straight upgrade".

 

This is what the forum cries will lead to. This is why I fear the next patch. Going by the PvP forum, alchemy seems mostly targetted as the reason holo is OP (yet no one even bother listing core engies in strenght lists). So alchemy is probably on the chopping block.

 

# Because purity of purpose

[Renny.6571]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

>

> This is what the forum cries will lead to. This is why I fear the next patch. Going by the PvP forum, alchemy seems mostly targetted as the reason holo is OP (yet no one even bother listing core engies in strenght lists). So alchemy is probably on the chopping block.

>

> # Because purity of purpose

 

Yeh this is the whole thing. People just want nerfs to a specific build without thinking about how it affects the whole class.

 

[Jaruselka.5943]

> Every role engi could take are done better with elite specs. But how it could be solved? When you buff core engi, it will be also a buff to elites.

> I think the only way is to give core engi a unique kit which is on F5, or buff all kits just for core.

 

I think this highlights the failure of the whole concept of specializations. Core engi is a perfect example of this: pistols were thrown away because of some OP specialization build that people were whining about. They need to just treat specializations as classes and remove a lot of nerfs core engi has suffered for nearly a decade.

[UNOwen.7132]

Honestly, a good mainhand weapon for power builds would go a long way. Tools is actually a pretty good traitline that I even prefer to Holosmith at times, and Holo mode isnt what it used to be in PvP (Its usually lower damage than just sword. You just use it for mobility and might stacking). But core engineer is stuck on rifle, since pistols are useless for power, and rifle is kind of outdated nowadays.

[wasss.1208]

> @"Jaruselka.5943" said:

>

> I think this highlights the failure of the whole concept of specializations. Core engi is a perfect example of this: pistols were thrown away because of some OP specialization build that people were whining about. They need to just treat specializations as classes and remove a lot of nerfs core engi has suffered for nearly a decade.

 

I'm curious, if in the next wave of nerfs they'll nerf 'nades, completely killing power core engi, or just shave holo mightstacking, which causes the problem. Also a little off topic: yesterday, after I found out that my friend does twice my damage on a support tempest build, so I swapped over to support scourge, and did double of what I usually do on my damage focused core builds. I'm either pretty bad with engi, or it is even worse than I suspected.