Sobx.1758 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say you can't i said that its encouraging people not to pick a class due to limits for raids. That is all since i don't want to repeat myself. > > > > > > > > Was I responding to your post here? > > > > > > > > On the other hand, you've left the post where I was actually talking to you, so I'm a bit confused about what you're saying here along with that condescending(?) "don't want to repeat myself". > > > > > > Well i mean repeat as in: I've said the same thing in this thread to explain myself and waste people's time. > > > > > > Was i condescending? if it came out that way i'm sorry it wasn't my intention to. > > > > ...but you understand that you were answering to the post that wasn't even responding to you, which makes that "I don't want to repeat myself" even more out of place? > > I wasn't sure since i got a notification of your post which only tends to happen if: > > A: you are responding to me. > B: responding to someone responding to me. > C: if you respond to a thread i make. It pings you if you're mentioned anywhere in the post, which also includes any *quote inside quote inside q...*. To be sure, next time just read the post along with the nickname of the author of the included quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. I do have quite a bit of experience with scourge and it is a difficult elite spec to use as a Dps. It's not difficult to survive on which I would consider that something else. As it is now I'd sacrifice all access to barrier on condi DPS scourge, having no defense what so ever to be comparable in damage to something like condi firebrand who keeps all their defensive utility and support while out DPSing us. I'd take that trade because at least then I could feel like I'm really pushing the limits of what the elite spec has offered me. At the moment I'm hitting a glass ceiling to what the elite spec can do. And although I'm quite good on necromancer and reaper, it's a far cry from optimal and I feel a bit guilty for not taking something much stronger even though scourge is what I really enjoy. I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Lily.1935" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > I do have quite a bit of experience with scourge and it is a difficult elite spec to use as a Dps. It's not difficult to survive on which I would consider that something else. > > As it is now I'd sacrifice all access to barrier on condi DPS scourge, having no defense what so ever to be comparable in damage to something like condi firebrand who keeps all their defensive utility and support while out DPSing us. I'd take that trade because at least then I could feel like I'm really pushing the limits of what the elite spec has offered me. At the moment I'm hitting a glass ceiling to what the elite spec can do. And although I'm quite good on necromancer and reaper, it's a far cry from optimal and I feel a bit guilty for not taking something much stronger even though scourge is what I really enjoy. > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. It does worse than that. If you are doing maximum capacity with scourge and do 29 most on the golem and everyone else does 34-41, that is a huge difference that can make people feel guilty for being carried. It also encourages harrassment and demanding people play other classes. Perosonally i'd like core nec to be the condi spec since its got less aoes and can be more single target. Scourge has a bad rep for being a aoe condi spec that ruined SPVP for many, and i haven't forgotten how dangerous it is. > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_ now, isn't it? > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange and it was exactly like this here with obtenna arguing everything is hunky dory there is no problem nec is fine being lower than everyone else and its barrier support which is only semi useful in raids for when you are training but then becomes pointless is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Lily.1935" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. Again, arguments like: something is stronger than something else so we just need to buff it or it's unusable/stopping people from getting into content is simply incorrect. > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_ now, isn't it? > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange and it was exactly like this here with obtenna arguing everything is hunky dory there is no problem nec is fine being lower than everyone else and its barrier support which is only semi useful in raids for when you are training but then becomes pointless is fine. It's funny, because the thread you're talking about was literally claiming that *ele has no class mechanic* (which, again, is wrong) and it was used by that jski person as a ramp up for "buff my dmg" too, which was irrelevant to the thread and the claim about class mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKRathalos.9625 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 OK then let's bring it back to Balance Patch. When do you think anet will do another big balance patch? Will they delay all the way to EoD or they will do some big balance patch first, because let's be honest what they change at February 2020 there are a lot of "placeholders" and it's been a year so they should give this placeholder some change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. But you don't mind, do you, cause you can win (read: kill) any discussion with paramount truths like the sun rises in the east, 1+1=2 and gamedesign 101 is that you can complete any raid with any class. Real contribution, that is! And because I'm not contributing anything to this thread either: > @"DKRathalos.9625" said: > OK then let's bring it back to Balance Patch. When do you think anet will do another big balance patch? Will they delay all the way to EoD or they will do some big balance patch first, because let's be honest what they change at February 2020 there are a lot of "placeholders" and it's been a year so they should give this placeholder some change? These are the real questions! It's been FAR too long they did a real balance pass. In my opinion I don't even care anymore _what_ they change, knowing ANet it could go all directions, but the _frequency_ of pushing balance updates in this game is really REALLY low! It also gives the wrong impression imo, as the only MMORPG's that don't do frequent balance passes are the ones that are on life support. Is GW2 on life support? I surely hope not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. > > Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? >But you don't mind, do you, cause you can win (read: kill) any discussion with paramount truths like the sun rises in the east, 1+1=2 and gamedesign 101 is that you can complete any raid with any class. Real contribution, that is! If I can "win an argument" with truths then it's only because it's indeed true. You don't like the truth working against your opinion, so you'll dismiss it, but not sure how that changes anything about what was being said. On the other hand the claims I've quoted in my previous post are still simply false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. > > Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. But you don't mind, do you, cause you can win (read: kill) any discussion with paramount truths like the sun rises in the east, 1+1=2 and gamedesign 101 is that you can complete any raid with any class. Real contribution, that is! Well to be fair some sites are very outdated and unreliable for raids. Need to be careful with data from outdated sites when it comes to RDPS. I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'm sure there is someone who's done some raid dps testing and posted it somewhere or if not you could try yourself and see what results you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > > > > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > > > > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. > > > > Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. But you don't mind, do you, cause you can win (read: kill) any discussion with paramount truths like the sun rises in the east, 1+1=2 and gamedesign 101 is that you can complete any raid with any class. Real contribution, that is! > > Well to be fair some sites are very outdated and unreliable for raids. Need to be careful with data from outdated sites when it comes to RDPS. > > I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'm sure there is someone who's done some raid dps testing and posted it somewhere or if not you could try yourself and see what results you get. But that's just it, the last real balance update is also VERY outdated! (Edit: definitely if it comes to PvE) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > > > > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > > > > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. > > > > Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > > > > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > > > > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. > > > > Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > >But you don't mind, do you, cause you can win (read: kill) any discussion with paramount truths like the sun rises in the east, 1+1=2 and gamedesign 101 is that you can complete any raid with any class. Real contribution, that is! > > If I can "win an argument" with truths then it's only because it's indeed true. You don't like the truth working against your opinion, so you'll dismiss it, but not sure how that changes anything about what was being said. > On the other hand the claims I've quoted in my previous post are still simply false. Personally i remember back in the days of parchwork in wow that some numbers can be deceptive and it can be true in GW2 as golem doesn't take into account movement of a boss non movement or AOES. But data must exist of some sort that shows what x class is doing in a real raid scenario, say for instance, Karn the indominable with ele for instance or Soulbeast or i dunno herald rev. You can still calculate based on buffs and then record it in raid and show Here ele got 356800 on karn or i dunno the amount. My issue is using sites that are very outdated and do not have current updates on class mechanics and changes nerfs buffs done which could skew very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Axl.8924" said: > I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange No you didn't. I didn't say it was fine EVER in that thread. What you saw was someone saying untrue things to justify why it should be changed, and I called them out on that. There should be NO tolerance for that kind of nonsense. If you're going to accuse me of something, you better get your shit straight buddy. > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > Balance is this game does NOT mean equivalent DPS performance, so whatever statistics you want to bring from hitting a golem, etc ... aren't relevant. You are defining balance based on what? Not having high DPS? Not being Meta? Getting kicked from optimal PUG teams? Those aren't measures of balance. Game is designed around playing how you want; that means certain design choices that lead to the way the game is balanced. Sure, Anet COULD balance to equivalent DPS ... but it's not necessary for them to do so because for those of us that embrace how the game is designed, DPS differences don't affect how we can be successful. If balance around DPS is THAT important ... play a different game because there are lots that do that. The question of balance is related to playing how you want and what you can play to achieve success. In other games, that IS DPS equivalence ... but not here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKRathalos.9625 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"DKRathalos.9625" said: > > OK then let's bring it back to Balance Patch. When do you think anet will do another big balance patch? Will they delay all the way to EoD or they will do some big balance patch first, because let's be honest what they change at February 2020 there are a lot of "placeholders" and it's been a year so they should give this placeholder some change? > > These are the real questions! It's been FAR too long they did a real balance pass. In my opinion I don't even care anymore _what_ they change, knowing ANet it could go all directions, but the _frequency_ of pushing balance updates in this game is really REALLY low! It also gives the wrong impression imo, as the only MMORPG's that don't do frequent balance passes are the ones that are on life support. Is GW2 on life support? I surely hope not! Right? I was thinking like "Placeholder" is something which they will put temporarily like maybe 3-4 months? while they quickly give something new, but this has been almost a year, 25th february later will be full year after they did that. As a Warrior Player I kind of hurt a lot because they nerf CC damage in competitive which lead gutting warrior damage too much because they have many CC which originaly can damage but now become damageless, not to mention their utility mostly only buff, nothing serious in damage wise. Also there 2 traits on defense line which have 5 mins CD, that's crazy placeholders for 1 year. I felt like they doing that placeholder patch is just the sake of change not necessarily balancing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange > > No you didn't. I didn't say it was fine EVER in that thread. What you saw was someone saying untrue things to justify why it should be changed, and I called them out on that. There should be NO tolerance for that kind of nonsense. If you're going to accuse me of something, you better get your kitten straight buddy. > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > > > > > Balance is this game does NOT mean equivalent DPS performance, so whatever statistics you want to bring from hitting a golem, etc ... aren't relevant. You are defining balance based on what? Not having high DPS? Not being Meta? Getting kicked from optimal PUG teams? Those aren't measures of balance. > > Game is designed around playing how you want; that means certain design choices that lead to the way the game is balanced. Sure, Anet COULD balance to equivalent DPS ... but it's not necessary for them to do so because for those of us that embrace how the game is designed, DPS differences don't affect how we can be successful. If balance around DPS is THAT important ... play a different game because there are lots that do that. > > The question of balance is related to playing how you want and what you can play to achieve success. In other games, that IS DPS equivalence ... but not here. Depends if the choices are meaningful. A perfect example is like world of warcraft where affliction was said there is a difficulty in maintaining dots on multiple targets. Some argued that you should be rewarded with high damage for a difficult to maintain spec, and i think i agree. If you play mesmer for instance and have a difficult to maintain and its a lot of work to get good numbers or ele and the numbers you get are sub par for said reward, then people might become demotivated and it hurts the game. Sometimes choices are meaningful but sometimes things could be amped up. I think some apply to nec, although reaper is fairly simple to play, and its gotten a lot closer to everyone than it used to be, it is still behind everyone by a margin. Also neglecting your duty also shows you have a bias or don't care about your game, which you really don't want that. A good example is nec has been in a situation like this for years and mes went unchanged for a while as did druids being outright necessary for raids until it was nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange > > > > No you didn't. I didn't say it was fine EVER in that thread. What you saw was someone saying untrue things to justify why it should be changed, and I called them out on that. There should be NO tolerance for that kind of nonsense. If you're going to accuse me of something, you better get your kitten straight buddy. > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > > > > > > > > > Balance is this game does NOT mean equivalent DPS performance, so whatever statistics you want to bring from hitting a golem, etc ... aren't relevant. You are defining balance based on what? Not having high DPS? Not being Meta? Getting kicked from optimal PUG teams? Those aren't measures of balance. > > > > Game is designed around playing how you want; that means certain design choices that lead to the way the game is balanced. Sure, Anet COULD balance to equivalent DPS ... but it's not necessary for them to do so because for those of us that embrace how the game is designed, DPS differences don't affect how we can be successful. If balance around DPS is THAT important ... play a different game because there are lots that do that. > > > > The question of balance is related to playing how you want and what you can play to achieve success. In other games, that IS DPS equivalence ... but not here. > > Depends if the choices are meaningful. Yes, and this game the highest number of meaningful choices of any game I've every played. So basically ... _thank you Anet_ ... _mission accomplished_. I get to play how I WANT EVERY DAY and not worry about if my gear is good enough to beat a timer, outlast an encounter or force me into a META build to complete something. Again, don't be confused as this is me saying "_don't improve the game_" ... I got no problem with Anet improving the game or people discussing it ... but it MUST be done for reasons that are inline with how the game is intended to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange > > > > > > No you didn't. I didn't say it was fine EVER in that thread. What you saw was someone saying untrue things to justify why it should be changed, and I called them out on that. There should be NO tolerance for that kind of nonsense. If you're going to accuse me of something, you better get your kitten straight buddy. > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance is this game does NOT mean equivalent DPS performance, so whatever statistics you want to bring from hitting a golem, etc ... aren't relevant. You are defining balance based on what? Not having high DPS? Not being Meta? Getting kicked from optimal PUG teams? Those aren't measures of balance. > > > > > > Game is designed around playing how you want; that means certain design choices that lead to the way the game is balanced. Sure, Anet COULD balance to equivalent DPS ... but it's not necessary for them to do so because for those of us that embrace how the game is designed, DPS differences don't affect how we can be successful. If balance around DPS is THAT important ... play a different game because there are lots that do that. > > > > > > The question of balance is related to playing how you want and what you can play to achieve success. In other games, that IS DPS equivalence ... but not here. > > > > Depends if the choices are meaningful. > > Yes, and this game the highest number of meaningful choices of any game I've every played. I'm really happy for _you_! But like I said before: numbers show a different tendens. From declining sales (see NCSoft) to (near) empty LFG's . From mass lay-offs to veteran players leaving this game. Again, I'm happy for _you_, that _you_ feel really great and peachy about the current state of this game, but now I really would like to see all those other people that don't like the direction ANet (and NCSoft) is going to be (more) happy. For that group of people is growing every single day. I'm not saying there's a 100% correlation between the beforementioned decline and the abnormally low frequency of balance updates as of late, but I do think it is _somewhat_ of a factor. Like I mentioned before. The only MMORPG's that don't receive regular balance updates are the ones on life support! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange > > > > > > > > No you didn't. I didn't say it was fine EVER in that thread. What you saw was someone saying untrue things to justify why it should be changed, and I called them out on that. There should be NO tolerance for that kind of nonsense. If you're going to accuse me of something, you better get your kitten straight buddy. > > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > > > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > > > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance is this game does NOT mean equivalent DPS performance, so whatever statistics you want to bring from hitting a golem, etc ... aren't relevant. You are defining balance based on what? Not having high DPS? Not being Meta? Getting kicked from optimal PUG teams? Those aren't measures of balance. > > > > > > > > Game is designed around playing how you want; that means certain design choices that lead to the way the game is balanced. Sure, Anet COULD balance to equivalent DPS ... but it's not necessary for them to do so because for those of us that embrace how the game is designed, DPS differences don't affect how we can be successful. If balance around DPS is THAT important ... play a different game because there are lots that do that. > > > > > > > > The question of balance is related to playing how you want and what you can play to achieve success. In other games, that IS DPS equivalence ... but not here. > > > > > > Depends if the choices are meaningful. > > > > Yes, and this game the highest number of meaningful choices of any game I've every played. > > I'm really happy for _you_! But like I said before: numbers show a different tendens. From declining sales (see NCSoft) to (near) empty LFG's . From mass lay-offs to veteran players leaving this game. > Again, I'm happy for _you_, that _you_ feel really great and peachy about the current state of this game, but now I really would like to see all those other people that don't like the direction ANet (and NCSoft) is going to be (more) happy. For that group of people is growing every single day. You're not being honest here. I'm saying that Anet is balancing in a way that is inline with how they intented to allow people to play how they want. That's one of the things about the game that I like. If you aren't happy with the balance approach this game has been on FOR THE LAST 8 YEARS and shows no sign of deviating from ... well, that's a pretty strong hint to you and everyone else that incessantly complain about lack of balance for how much the complaints register with Anet in the game design. I mean ... think about why there has been such a strong push for change on the competitive side of the game this year compared to the PVE side. > > I'm not saying there's a 100% correlation between the beforementioned decline and the abnormally low frequency of balance updates as of late, but I do think it is _somewhat_ of a factor. OK ... but I'm not arguing with you about frequency of balance updates. Yes, it's good you acknowledge that '_the numbers_' have an unknown correlation to balance ... which BTW, is a good reason to _lay off_ using _the numbers_ to continually justify changes for balancing the game different than the way Anet does it now. Anet could release a balance update EVERY DAY and you guys would still complain because it's not the balance that you think it should be. People need to get off this idea that the game needs to be what they want it to be or that it needs to conform to some sort of traditional MMO standard. It doesn't; it's existence for the last 8 years and more PROVES it doesn't. People also need to get off this idea that if we had DPS equivalence over all classes in PVE, everything would be amazing. That's not something you can say because there will ALWAYS be a meta and there will ALWAYS be people wanting to build teams based on optimal performance with it, kicking builds that aren't meta. DPS equivalence for balance is NOT the answer in this game, because this game is NOT designed around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > > > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > > > > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > > > > > > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > > > > > > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. > > > > > > Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! Yup and **balance!** is exactly what I'm commenting on. If you *don't care what I''m talking about*, then I'm not sure why you pretend you're answering to anything I wrote while all you do is try to disregard anything factual that goes against your idea of "anet needs to buff my class!". You still don't understand that benchmarks have nothing to do with being a proof for anything that's being said here, because nobody tries disputing the differences in dps and benchmarks are **literally** only proving that singular thing, while it does nothing for the incorrect claims from this thread that I've quoted earlier. You might dislike facts that go against your opinions, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of what people wrote here -including you- is just made up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange > > > > > > No you didn't. I didn't say it was fine EVER in that thread. What you saw was someone saying untrue things to justify why it should be changed, and I called them out on that. There should be NO tolerance for that kind of nonsense. If you're going to accuse me of something, you better get your kitten straight buddy. > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance is this game does NOT mean equivalent DPS performance, so whatever statistics you want to bring from hitting a golem, etc ... aren't relevant. You are defining balance based on what? Not having high DPS? Not being Meta? Getting kicked from optimal PUG teams? Those aren't measures of balance. > > > > > > Game is designed around playing how you want; that means certain design choices that lead to the way the game is balanced. Sure, Anet COULD balance to equivalent DPS ... but it's not necessary for them to do so because for those of us that embrace how the game is designed, DPS differences don't affect how we can be successful. If balance around DPS is THAT important ... play a different game because there are lots that do that. > > > > > > The question of balance is related to playing how you want and what you can play to achieve success. In other games, that IS DPS equivalence ... but not here. > > > > Depends if the choices are meaningful. > > Yes, and this game the highest number of meaningful choices of any game I've every played. > > So basically ... _thank you Anet_ ... _mission accomplished_. I get to play how I WANT EVERY DAY and not worry about if my gear is good enough to beat a timer, outlast an encounter or force me into a META build to complete something. > > Again, don't be confused as this is me saying "_don't improve the game_" ... I got no problem with Anet improving the game or people discussing it ... but it MUST be done for reasons that are inline with how the game is intended to work. The reason i answered this post is because for these builds to matter and be meaningful there has to be risk reward. It is also why i think jski was arguing in order to have meaningful changes to make playing core ele as meaningful as playing the elites and so should all classes. I'm glad you finally agree with me on something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange > > > > > > > > No you didn't. I didn't say it was fine EVER in that thread. What you saw was someone saying untrue things to justify why it should be changed, and I called them out on that. There should be NO tolerance for that kind of nonsense. If you're going to accuse me of something, you better get your kitten straight buddy. > > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > > > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > > > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance is this game does NOT mean equivalent DPS performance, so whatever statistics you want to bring from hitting a golem, etc ... aren't relevant. You are defining balance based on what? Not having high DPS? Not being Meta? Getting kicked from optimal PUG teams? Those aren't measures of balance. > > > > > > > > Game is designed around playing how you want; that means certain design choices that lead to the way the game is balanced. Sure, Anet COULD balance to equivalent DPS ... but it's not necessary for them to do so because for those of us that embrace how the game is designed, DPS differences don't affect how we can be successful. If balance around DPS is THAT important ... play a different game because there are lots that do that. > > > > > > > > The question of balance is related to playing how you want and what you can play to achieve success. In other games, that IS DPS equivalence ... but not here. > > > > > > Depends if the choices are meaningful. > > > > Yes, and this game the highest number of meaningful choices of any game I've every played. > > > > So basically ... _thank you Anet_ ... _mission accomplished_. I get to play how I WANT EVERY DAY and not worry about if my gear is good enough to beat a timer, outlast an encounter or force me into a META build to complete something. > > > > Again, don't be confused as this is me saying "_don't improve the game_" ... I got no problem with Anet improving the game or people discussing it ... but it MUST be done for reasons that are inline with how the game is intended to work. > > The reason i answered this post is because for these builds to matter and be meaningful there has to be risk reward. Well, I'm not entirely sure what you mean here ... but I CAN assure you that for the people that play these builds, they ARE meaningful, regardless of the risk/reward balance. > > It is also why i think jski was arguing in order to have meaningful changes to make playing core ele as meaningful as playing the elites and so should all classes. No, Jski was arguing because he was looking for a specific solution to a problem that doesn't exist and using untrue statements to justify it. I mean, playing core ele IS meaningful to people otherwise they wouldn't play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange > > > > > > > > > > No you didn't. I didn't say it was fine EVER in that thread. What you saw was someone saying untrue things to justify why it should be changed, and I called them out on that. There should be NO tolerance for that kind of nonsense. If you're going to accuse me of something, you better get your kitten straight buddy. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > > > > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > > > > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance is this game does NOT mean equivalent DPS performance, so whatever statistics you want to bring from hitting a golem, etc ... aren't relevant. You are defining balance based on what? Not having high DPS? Not being Meta? Getting kicked from optimal PUG teams? Those aren't measures of balance. > > > > > > > > > > Game is designed around playing how you want; that means certain design choices that lead to the way the game is balanced. Sure, Anet COULD balance to equivalent DPS ... but it's not necessary for them to do so because for those of us that embrace how the game is designed, DPS differences don't affect how we can be successful. If balance around DPS is THAT important ... play a different game because there are lots that do that. > > > > > > > > > > The question of balance is related to playing how you want and what you can play to achieve success. In other games, that IS DPS equivalence ... but not here. > > > > > > > > Depends if the choices are meaningful. > > > > > > Yes, and this game the highest number of meaningful choices of any game I've every played. > > > > > > So basically ... _thank you Anet_ ... _mission accomplished_. I get to play how I WANT EVERY DAY and not worry about if my gear is good enough to beat a timer, outlast an encounter or force me into a META build to complete something. > > > > > > Again, don't be confused as this is me saying "_don't improve the game_" ... I got no problem with Anet improving the game or people discussing it ... but it MUST be done for reasons that are inline with how the game is intended to work. > > > > The reason i answered this post is because for these builds to matter and be meaningful there has to be risk reward. > > Well, I'm not entirely sure what you mean here ... but I CAN assure you that for the people that play these builds, they ARE meaningful, regardless of the risk/reward balance. > > > > It is also why i think jski was arguing in order to have meaningful changes to make playing core ele as meaningful as playing the elites and so should all classes. > > No, Jski was arguing because he was looking for a specific solution to a problem that doesn't exist and using untrue statements to justify it. I mean, playing core ele IS meaningful to people otherwise they wouldn't play it. A good example of risk reward is: Tempest with Daggerhorn risk: You are squishy Reward: good damage. I have a issue that tempest is a flat upgrade to core ele and in some ways weaver was a flat upgrade and it shouldn't be. I think anet is trying to fix this but run into issues that has to do with mechanics. Some elites were simply flat out upgrades and it should be tradeoffs that are meaningful and interesting to make the choices valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > I saw obtenna arguing with jski on why eles are fine and nothing should c hange > > > > > > > > > > > > No you didn't. I didn't say it was fine EVER in that thread. What you saw was someone saying untrue things to justify why it should be changed, and I called them out on that. There should be NO tolerance for that kind of nonsense. If you're going to accuse me of something, you better get your kitten straight buddy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > > > > > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > > > > > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance is this game does NOT mean equivalent DPS performance, so whatever statistics you want to bring from hitting a golem, etc ... aren't relevant. You are defining balance based on what? Not having high DPS? Not being Meta? Getting kicked from optimal PUG teams? Those aren't measures of balance. > > > > > > > > > > > > Game is designed around playing how you want; that means certain design choices that lead to the way the game is balanced. Sure, Anet COULD balance to equivalent DPS ... but it's not necessary for them to do so because for those of us that embrace how the game is designed, DPS differences don't affect how we can be successful. If balance around DPS is THAT important ... play a different game because there are lots that do that. > > > > > > > > > > > > The question of balance is related to playing how you want and what you can play to achieve success. In other games, that IS DPS equivalence ... but not here. > > > > > > > > > > Depends if the choices are meaningful. > > > > > > > > Yes, and this game the highest number of meaningful choices of any game I've every played. > > > > > > > > So basically ... _thank you Anet_ ... _mission accomplished_. I get to play how I WANT EVERY DAY and not worry about if my gear is good enough to beat a timer, outlast an encounter or force me into a META build to complete something. > > > > > > > > Again, don't be confused as this is me saying "_don't improve the game_" ... I got no problem with Anet improving the game or people discussing it ... but it MUST be done for reasons that are inline with how the game is intended to work. > > > > > > The reason i answered this post is because for these builds to matter and be meaningful there has to be risk reward. > > > > Well, I'm not entirely sure what you mean here ... but I CAN assure you that for the people that play these builds, they ARE meaningful, regardless of the risk/reward balance. > > > > > > It is also why i think jski was arguing in order to have meaningful changes to make playing core ele as meaningful as playing the elites and so should all classes. > > > > No, Jski was arguing because he was looking for a specific solution to a problem that doesn't exist and using untrue statements to justify it. I mean, playing core ele IS meaningful to people otherwise they wouldn't play it. > > A good example of risk reward is: Tempest with Daggerhorn risk: You are squishy Reward: good damage. > > I have a issue that tempest is a flat upgrade to core ele and in some ways weaver was a flat upgrade and it shouldn't be. I think anet is trying to fix this but run into issues that has to do with mechanics. Sure that's a good example, but again, balancing of risk/reward for all the different specs is not needed for how the game is designed and works; this risk/reward idea is JUST another way of saying 'we need performance balance' and that's just a requirement you are imposing on it to justify a change. > > Some elites were simply flat out upgrades and it should be tradeoffs that are meaningful and interesting to make the choices valuable. ... and there is, because if different specs were not meaningful and interesting choices to people, they wouldn't play them and we know Anet makes changes to specs they feel are underplayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > @"Lily.1935" said: > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol, is there any game (especially MMORPG's) out there that doesnt give you that choice? I mean, I'd love to see an MMORPG that tells you on the "create your character screen", please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Really, your arguments are completely moot! They're all just givens and don't contribute to _any_ game discussion, really! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why you need proper balance in pve. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if you can do content with lower DPS, if you give foilks a reason to pass you on being brought to a group then there is a good chance they will becasue something is better. A lot of people are obsessed with numbers and statistics as what gets the best results. If its a small numeral difference and your at the bottom its not so bad, but if its quite noticeable between classes, then it shows there is a problem. Necromancer is particularly problematic, because it has tools that don't fit pve well and are better suited for PVP. Some of its CC have minimal effect and although boon corrupt works in fractals at higher tiers, lower tier fractals enemies have minimal buffs and minimal amount of condis to corrupt, and barrier i heard fits more practice groups for raids or casual runs with bad players. I haven't seen these kind of severe limitations on other classes, and perhaps i'm wrong since i'm not able to play scourge, i do have experience with core and reaper, as i play a lot of those. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These things i said ring true, because In the past of GW and recently, we had classes who's support was underwhelming and others that were outright required for raid( mesmer and guardians) This proves it was poorly adjusted. I'm not saying mesmers and guardians shouldn't be good at what they do, but there should be possibility of at least some options of others who can fill in said role. > > > > > > I'm fortunate that my guild allows me to run scourge, and I've attempted to play other classes and specs though none as as enjoyable to me which makes it tough to get into them. Engineer being my off day choice since I find condi holo fun when I don't want to plan out every skill use on an internal mental timer. > > > > > > > > > > > > To your point. Each DPS shouldn't be 40% difference from each other. That's insane. There can be a difference in potency but at that high it does create a very negative experience and prevents new people from entering the raiding format. > > > > > > > > > > The difference in dps between the classes isn't stopping new players form entering the raiding format, not sure what that random claim is, but that's just not true. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully some day they fix this necro issue, since its a specific issue to do with mechanics which nerf necromancers suffer efficiency wise compared to other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except this isn't an issue in PVE because the game isn't designed around needing the highest efficiency builds to be successful. Hopefully, Anet continue to ignore these constant requests to 'fix' issues that would result in the content dictating what builds are needed, resulting in fewer people being able to play the builds they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It becomes a issue if that extra damage delays the death of a raid boss and gives it more time to use techs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's not an issue. You can be successful if that happens. In fact, the game is DESIGNED to allow that 'delay' so people can choose to play how they want. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though because it gives a reason for folks to pass over necro. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That just depends on how you play and who you play with. In otherwords ... it's an issue you encounter because of choices _you_ make. It's not an issue that requires Anet to solve with game changes because the game design already addresses that issue. The game is designed so that people can choose to play how they want and be successful. > > > > > > > >please don't pick this class, you wont be able to complete the game with it ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But that's not true in this game and in this case, what are you even talking about right now? If you're suggesting that you can't complete it with necro (or that it's even remotely hard), then that's just false. If that's not what you're suggesting, then I don't understand what point you're trying to make by typing something like this out. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, read my comment again. Your missing the point completely. I'm saying that @"Obtena.7952" and you (= @"Sobx.1758" ) (as well) are coming up with arguments that doesn't add anything to this discussion. Of course you can complete the game (and raids) with **any** class. But so you can in any other (MMORPG) game out there. These arguments are non-arguments and don't add to any discussion! It's the same as telling anyone in real life that they're not allowed to complain about anything, cause they're still breathing. Kind of an essential part of _life_, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, arguments like: the game is designed this way that anyone and any class can complete raids and such, don't say anything. The game wouldn't exist if this wouldn't be the case. And hopefully, now we get that out of our way, we can actually contribute to this discussion on _how_ we can improve classes that fall significantly short in certain gamemodes and maybe nerf the classes that are outperforming. Because the gap is quite big (especially in the PvE endgame)! That's for sure! > > > > > > > > > > Oh, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't bring any less to the discussion than your (= @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" ), @"Axl.8924" or @"Lily.1935"'s made up arguments about classes being unusable(/not worth using) if they're not the best at something OR necro somehow being something that's stopping people from entering raids. If what we're saying doesn't add anything then neither any of these (on top of them simply not even being true), but you don't mind that because it pushes your "buff my class" request. > > > > > > > > Well, _these_ people you're talking about actually come with real numbers, statistics and benchmarks which you can find on several websites (from snowcrows to discretize to even in the older days: gw2raidar!), yours ... well where is your proof? In numbers I mean? Not just the hunch you have, or the anecdotal: _this one time ...._ stories. > > > > > > "Benchmark numbers" do absolutely nothing to support their claims and what I wrote about, how is this even relevant? It *would* be relevant *if* I questioned existance of dps/class performance differences, but that's not what I'm doing. Seriously, don't you understand you're talking about one thing and then claim that "there's proof for it!" while *proving* something else (which, again, was never anything I argued against)? > > I don't care what _you_ are talking or arguing about. This is a thread about **balance**! > > Let me make it really simple: Balance in GW2 = BAD; Benchmarks, statistics = proof; gamedesign **101**/for dummies ≠ (is not) proof and has nothing to do with balance, it only has to do with if a game can simply exist or not! > > Yup and **balance!** **No** it doesn't! Let me bring your argumentation to its extreme, and then you hopefully figure out that it **doesn't** have to do anything with balance. What if ANet would design a class tomorrow that literally can't do anything except for standing in a corner. It has a max of 0 DPS, 0 HPS, 0% support, no mobility, etc. It can only stand in a corner, and can die ... really quickly. With your flawless argumentation, you'd say that would still be balanced, cause you can 9-man raids! That you can complete raids anyway you like and with any class you like has nothing to do with balance! It's that simple. > If you *don't care what I''m talking about*, then I'm not sure why you pretend you're answering to anything I wrote while all you do is try to disregard anything factual that goes against your idea of "anet needs to buff my class!". If you read my posts correctly, I'm far more worried about the frequency of balance updates as opposed to _what_ they will balance. Here you are, and I quote (from just a few posts back): > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > It's been FAR too long they did a real balance pass. In my opinion I don't even care anymore _what_ they change, knowing ANet it could go all directions, but the _frequency_ of pushing balance updates in this game is really REALLY low! It also gives the wrong impression imo, as the only MMORPG's that don't do frequent balance passes are the ones that are on life support. Is GW2 on life support? I surely hope not! If you really want to know what I find **the** most distressing part of the balance in the PvE endgame, sure the terrible state of the Necro is very high on the list, but the absolute worst is actually about boons! And especially Quickness and Alacrity, obviously. The (class) distribution on them, the importance of having high uptime on them, etc. it's just really unbalanced! > @"Sobx.1758" said: > You still don't understand that benchmarks have nothing to do with being a proof for anything that's being said here, because nobody tries disputing the differences in dps and benchmarks are **literally** only proving that singular thing, while it does nothing for the incorrect claims from this thread that I've quoted earlier. You might dislike facts that go against your opinions, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of what people wrote here -including you- is just made up. Read my comment of the beginning of this post. DPS **is** a factor in balance, I would even say one of the biggest if you look at the PvE endgame. It kills opponents (being your main objective in Raids), speeds things up so you get your rewards earlier, literally breaks mechanics, even makes things easier if you consider "exhaustion factors" in longer fights (your dodges are getting depleted more often, strong heals/cleanses etc. get in cooldown, etc.), and last but not least, the timers set by ANet for a reason are literal DPS checks! So I'd say: YES, DPS is a factor to which you should balance to! But hey, let me repeat myself one more time: that you can complete a raid anyway you like (even by lying on the ground for the full duration of the fight) is definitely NOT a factor ANet should take into consideration when balancing the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Agri > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > It's been FAR too long they did a real balance pass. In my opinion I don't even care anymore _what_ they change, knowing ANet it could go all directions, but the _frequency_ of pushing balance updates in this game is really REALLY low! It also gives the wrong impression imo, as the only MMORPG's that don't do frequent balance passes are the ones that are on life support. Is GW2 on life support? I surely hope not! > If you really want to know what I find **the** most distressing part of the balance in the PvE endgame, sure the terrible state of the Necro is very high on the list, but the absolute worst is actually about boons! And especially Quickness and Alacrity, obviously. The (class) distribution on them, the importance of having high uptime on them, etc. it's just really unbalanced! Did you know GW2 is actually worse about that? in pve in WOW even if sometimes it takes months they tend to rotate classes as fotm even if i dislike that idea and think they shouldn't, they never had a class that was bottom for years non stop since almost the beginning, which is seriously busted. Then again, if it was blizzard knowing the way they are now, they woulda nerfed all casters dumbed down all classes and call it a day add microtransactions or something. Also i personally disagree with you on something agrippa: I don't think necros should have lots of access to certain kinds of boons such as alacricity and quickness, thats a mesmer thing. Necromancers were never about giving those and i don't know what kinda buffs they gave in GW1 but personally i think nec should do protection barrier maybe might as boons regen that kinda stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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