shadowpass.4236 Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PF > RS imo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you havent played with either. Its no comparision, Reaper Shroud is a *vastly* superior form. Which I mean, it has to be, it carries reaper all on its own. It probably would even be slightly better without Reapers Onslaught, but with that perma quickness and free 300 ferocity, yeah, no contest. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying Reaper Shroud isn't strong but the accessibility of Photon Forge makes it better imo. > > > > > > > > > > It doesnt. Reaper Shroud makes Reaper as good as it is. Its a massive DPS boost, as well as providing a lot of survivability, CC, utility and even a bit of mobility. Photon Forge by comparision provides mobility and a minor DPS boost. Reaper shroud still is much stronger. Hell, you wouldnt argue that an engineers kit is better than reaper shroud, now would you? And those are more accessible (and arguably photon forge is just a mediocre kit). > > > > > > > > Photon Forge is a minor DPS boost? That's an understatement. > > > > > > Its not. It is actually *incredibly* minor. You have corona burst which is decent, and holo leap which is alright. But sword + grenade kit is almost as good. Its pretty much just the 2 corona bursts that barely pull holoforge ahead, but again, only barely. > > > > Photon forge autos do big damage. > > *Less* than sword autos on the most common heat thresholds. Autoing in forge is a DPS loss compared to outside of forge. But you dont have much better things to do. Idk both PF and RS are good, this isn't important to me at all so I'm just gonna leave it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PF > RS imo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you havent played with either. Its no comparision, Reaper Shroud is a *vastly* superior form. Which I mean, it has to be, it carries reaper all on its own. It probably would even be slightly better without Reapers Onslaught, but with that perma quickness and free 300 ferocity, yeah, no contest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying Reaper Shroud isn't strong but the accessibility of Photon Forge makes it better imo. > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesnt. Reaper Shroud makes Reaper as good as it is. Its a massive DPS boost, as well as providing a lot of survivability, CC, utility and even a bit of mobility. Photon Forge by comparision provides mobility and a minor DPS boost. Reaper shroud still is much stronger. Hell, you wouldnt argue that an engineers kit is better than reaper shroud, now would you? And those are more accessible (and arguably photon forge is just a mediocre kit). > > > > > > > > > > Photon Forge is a minor DPS boost? That's an understatement. > > > > > > > > Its not. It is actually *incredibly* minor. You have corona burst which is decent, and holo leap which is alright. But sword + grenade kit is almost as good. Its pretty much just the 2 corona bursts that barely pull holoforge ahead, but again, only barely. > > > > > > Photon forge autos do big damage. > > > > *Less* than sword autos on the most common heat thresholds. Autoing in forge is a DPS loss compared to outside of forge. But you dont have much better things to do. > > Idk both PF and RS are good, this isn't important to me at all so I'm just gonna leave it here. Photon Forge is good for mobility. And its good to enable the good traits. But as a skill bar? I wouldnt even play it over sword/shield. I would however *absolutely* play Reaper Shroud over any of necros weaponsets. Or most classes skill bars, for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be? > > > > > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all. > > > > Side by side comparison https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Shroud and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Forge . You can click them one by one and notice that one has larger cast time and longer cooldown while having almost similar scaling. > > > > > > > > > > Sure, lets go side by side. Lets start with autos. Reapers Autos surprisingly are slightly faster to cast (2.4 seconds vs holos 2.5). Reapers attack chain has a total coefficient of 2.326. Photon Forges autos have a total coefficient of 2.132. Reapers autos are faster and do more damage. Id like to compare skill 2s, but I dont have a Reaper character. And the wiki is clearly missing damage. Lets put a pin in that. Skill 3, different uses. Corona burst provides a bit of damage. Infusing Terror proves a 20% damage reduction, stability (which Engineer lacks now) and the ability for a brief AoE fear. Id probably take the latter simply because utility and survivability are better than just "more damage", but lets call it inconclusive. > > > > > > Now we get the big differences. Soul Spiral does similar DPS compared to Photon Blitz, however its AoE, a guaranteed whirl finisher, applies very useful poison and isnt a projectile that can be stopped. And finally, shockwave vs executioners. Engineer cant move during shockwaves cast, Reaper can. Reaper has a slightly longer cast time, but CCs for more than twice as long. And he creates an ice field. > > > > > > Ok, so far Reaper is definitely better, but not by much. Here is the kicker though: I didnt mention the thing that makes Reaper Shroud so good. Reaper Onslaught. Take everything I have said so far, and now assume that the skills take half as long to cast and hit harder. Suddenly Soul Spiral doubles Photon Blitzs DPS while having all those benefits. Suddenly the auto hits more than twice as hard as Holos auto. Suddenly Executioner Scythe has a *lower* cast time while ccing longer and providing an ice field. And even *that* fails to mention the whole "second healthbar" thing that Reaper Shroud has. Or that that second healthbar takes *50%* damage. > > Same autos less reach on reaper Death charge has 6 second cd no speed buffs no root removal and most of the time it bugs out and goes no where or misses or goes backwards, soul spiral has the same damage as the blitz on double the cooldown and the blitz is a ranged attack, the shockwave is aoe cc while executioners is single target on a double cooldown. Dont pretend that Enhanced Capacity Storage unit(the passive might stacker) is not in the same space as Reaper Onslaught since 25 easy might is quite way more damage then quickness and as bonus it buffs Lasar's Edge to 22 1/2 % flat damage not crit Flat get some nades and do better aoe damage then reaper. Ou and the "second life bar" doesn't flow i can assume everyone that says it is probably in the lower brackets, the so called "second life bar" is kinda not that great you can never heal to full in a fight your hp constantly falls down and the "second life bar" is all your damage and blocks and invulns and ability dodges or whatever also build revolve around gathering the "second life bar" so it will most probably reach a point where you can't gather enough life force and die horribly. Also the shroud locks you out of utilities so no condition cleanse no stunbreaks. Reaper has to focus fully on the shroud to make it work, holo currently doesn't it just adds power creep to base engi and doesn't earn its god mode, the drawback is not even a drawback, how bad you have to be to blow up with holo. Maybe if holo had more cd and heat was actual mechanic we would see more holos blowing up. > > Oh boy, wall of text. Lets go over it. "Same autos less reach" higher damage autos. But yeah, slightly lower range. Oh but I guess the last attack in reapers chain has an actual side effect, which holos doesnt. Deaths charge blinds, and Im fairly certain hits far higher, but with the wiki being incomplete I cant say how much higher. Soul Spiral is the same, but its AoE instead of ranged. AoE is better than ranged. And it has poison. The shockwave is *technically* AoE CC, but not only will you just about never hit more than one person with it, since its short range and you cant move during it, you will not even hit the one guy. Enhanced Capacity Storage unit indeed *isnt* the same space. 25 might is a _**LOT**_ less extra damage than quickness (Off the top of my head its about 30% extra damage on 25 might, which mind you even with capacity storage unit you dont get anywhere close to consistnetly, vs 100% extra damage from quickness). Lasers Edge scales linearly. It will *never* hit 22.5%. It will usually however around 15-20%. Thats incidentally as much or less than the 20% the 300 ferocity add. > > The second health bar is absolutely amazing. Its just a ton of free health, which you obtain at rates much faster than lifestealing. Well, free health that takes half the damage. And Reaper can obtain that lifeforce quickly and consistently. Enough for it to be full health every time? Probably not. But its still a whole lot better than not having any. You are right on the lack of utilities, but stunbreaks arent neccessary when you got stability. Condis suck though, but then again, you get free health to deal with those, and you convert them when deactivating. > > But no. Reaper doesnt have to focus on the shroud to make it work. The shroud would be insane even without it. But thats the thing. Its so insane that focusing on it just makes sense. Its what carries the build, might as well go all out on it, no? Anyway, the thing is that photon forge is very, *very* far from a "god mode". Its a mediocre kit. The drawback is a loss of F5. Its not much, but Holo also just doesnt gain much outside of traits. The photon forge itself is, again, a mediocre kit. If it had a longer cooldown and heat was an actual mechanic, nothing would change. You go into it to use corona burst and holo leap, and drop it as soon as you can. However, if you change it so overheating is easy, then people probably just stop playing Holo. > > > Dont you think the holo traitline is a little bit stacked by having % boost + semi adrenal health passive + might generator ,people usually dip in 2 or 3 traitlines to gain the same results. > > Not really? Reaper for examples gives % boost, a stronger healing passive, and a quickness generator. Oh and another damage boost that I totally forgot about. Elite specs usually have multiple things in one traitline to be pretty general. Holosmith is not unusual here, at all. Which of the two can play different roles without hindrance,which one can 1v1, which one can bunker if so wills it.The reaper kit just works for teamfights and it doesn't work outside of that, and currently holo does not have a niche it can be whatever it wants to be it is even contesting reaper on the aoe teamfight just by having grande kit. If holo forge was so mediocre why dont you just play scrapper or core. I compare the shroud and the forge cause one is clearly designed to a fulfill specific goal along with its class, while the other does not take into account the class. Fuck all PoF specks are total bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be? > > > > > > > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all. > > > > > Side by side comparison https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Shroud and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Forge . You can click them one by one and notice that one has larger cast time and longer cooldown while having almost similar scaling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, lets go side by side. Lets start with autos. Reapers Autos surprisingly are slightly faster to cast (2.4 seconds vs holos 2.5). Reapers attack chain has a total coefficient of 2.326. Photon Forges autos have a total coefficient of 2.132. Reapers autos are faster and do more damage. Id like to compare skill 2s, but I dont have a Reaper character. And the wiki is clearly missing damage. Lets put a pin in that. Skill 3, different uses. Corona burst provides a bit of damage. Infusing Terror proves a 20% damage reduction, stability (which Engineer lacks now) and the ability for a brief AoE fear. Id probably take the latter simply because utility and survivability are better than just "more damage", but lets call it inconclusive. > > > > > > > > Now we get the big differences. Soul Spiral does similar DPS compared to Photon Blitz, however its AoE, a guaranteed whirl finisher, applies very useful poison and isnt a projectile that can be stopped. And finally, shockwave vs executioners. Engineer cant move during shockwaves cast, Reaper can. Reaper has a slightly longer cast time, but CCs for more than twice as long. And he creates an ice field. > > > > > > > > Ok, so far Reaper is definitely better, but not by much. Here is the kicker though: I didnt mention the thing that makes Reaper Shroud so good. Reaper Onslaught. Take everything I have said so far, and now assume that the skills take half as long to cast and hit harder. Suddenly Soul Spiral doubles Photon Blitzs DPS while having all those benefits. Suddenly the auto hits more than twice as hard as Holos auto. Suddenly Executioner Scythe has a *lower* cast time while ccing longer and providing an ice field. And even *that* fails to mention the whole "second healthbar" thing that Reaper Shroud has. Or that that second healthbar takes *50%* damage. > > > Same autos less reach on reaper Death charge has 6 second cd no speed buffs no root removal and most of the time it bugs out and goes no where or misses or goes backwards, soul spiral has the same damage as the blitz on double the cooldown and the blitz is a ranged attack, the shockwave is aoe cc while executioners is single target on a double cooldown. Dont pretend that Enhanced Capacity Storage unit(the passive might stacker) is not in the same space as Reaper Onslaught since 25 easy might is quite way more damage then quickness and as bonus it buffs Lasar's Edge to 22 1/2 % flat damage not crit Flat get some nades and do better aoe damage then reaper. Ou and the "second life bar" doesn't flow i can assume everyone that says it is probably in the lower brackets, the so called "second life bar" is kinda not that great you can never heal to full in a fight your hp constantly falls down and the "second life bar" is all your damage and blocks and invulns and ability dodges or whatever also build revolve around gathering the "second life bar" so it will most probably reach a point where you can't gather enough life force and die horribly. Also the shroud locks you out of utilities so no condition cleanse no stunbreaks. Reaper has to focus fully on the shroud to make it work, holo currently doesn't it just adds power creep to base engi and doesn't earn its god mode, the drawback is not even a drawback, how bad you have to be to blow up with holo. Maybe if holo had more cd and heat was actual mechanic we would see more holos blowing up. > > > > Oh boy, wall of text. Lets go over it. "Same autos less reach" higher damage autos. But yeah, slightly lower range. Oh but I guess the last attack in reapers chain has an actual side effect, which holos doesnt. Deaths charge blinds, and Im fairly certain hits far higher, but with the wiki being incomplete I cant say how much higher. Soul Spiral is the same, but its AoE instead of ranged. AoE is better than ranged. And it has poison. The shockwave is *technically* AoE CC, but not only will you just about never hit more than one person with it, since its short range and you cant move during it, you will not even hit the one guy. Enhanced Capacity Storage unit indeed *isnt* the same space. 25 might is a _**LOT**_ less extra damage than quickness (Off the top of my head its about 30% extra damage on 25 might, which mind you even with capacity storage unit you dont get anywhere close to consistnetly, vs 100% extra damage from quickness). Lasers Edge scales linearly. It will *never* hit 22.5%. It will usually however around 15-20%. Thats incidentally as much or less than the 20% the 300 ferocity add. > > > > The second health bar is absolutely amazing. Its just a ton of free health, which you obtain at rates much faster than lifestealing. Well, free health that takes half the damage. And Reaper can obtain that lifeforce quickly and consistently. Enough for it to be full health every time? Probably not. But its still a whole lot better than not having any. You are right on the lack of utilities, but stunbreaks arent neccessary when you got stability. Condis suck though, but then again, you get free health to deal with those, and you convert them when deactivating. > > > > But no. Reaper doesnt have to focus on the shroud to make it work. The shroud would be insane even without it. But thats the thing. Its so insane that focusing on it just makes sense. Its what carries the build, might as well go all out on it, no? Anyway, the thing is that photon forge is very, *very* far from a "god mode". Its a mediocre kit. The drawback is a loss of F5. Its not much, but Holo also just doesnt gain much outside of traits. The photon forge itself is, again, a mediocre kit. If it had a longer cooldown and heat was an actual mechanic, nothing would change. You go into it to use corona burst and holo leap, and drop it as soon as you can. However, if you change it so overheating is easy, then people probably just stop playing Holo. > > > > > Dont you think the holo traitline is a little bit stacked by having % boost + semi adrenal health passive + might generator ,people usually dip in 2 or 3 traitlines to gain the same results. > > > > Not really? Reaper for examples gives % boost, a stronger healing passive, and a quickness generator. Oh and another damage boost that I totally forgot about. Elite specs usually have multiple things in one traitline to be pretty general. Holosmith is not unusual here, at all. > Which of the two can play different roles without hindrance,which one can 1v1, which one can bunker if so wills it.The reaper kit just works for teamfights and it doesn't work outside of that, and currently holo does not have a niche it can be whatever it wants to be it is even contesting reaper on the aoe teamfight just by having grande kit. If holo forge was so mediocre why dont you just play scrapper or core. I compare the shroud and the forge cause one is clearly designed to a fulfill specific goal along with its class, while the other does not take into account the class. kitten all PoF specks are total kitten. > Uh, both? Reaper is better at teamfighting, but can 1v1 too. Holo is better at 1v1ing, but can teamfight too. As for bunker, Holo cant really bunker anymore. Reaper probably can, but I doubt its worth it. Holo has a niche, its a sidenoder. Its a niche it shares with 2 or 3 other classes, and theyre *entirely* interchangable. All that matters is knockbacks, and the fact that damage is too low. 3 reasons. The most important one is sword. Power scrapper and core engineer do not have a good mainhand weapon, so they cant use shield. But Holo can. And shield is really, *really* good. Scrapper has an even bigger issue in that hammer doesnt have a knockback. So it lacks the most critical tool a sidenoder can have. Rifle is just not nearly as good. Second, the traits. Condi conversion, damage up (in particular might), and a bit of sustain. And third, photon forge while mediocre as a damage tool, does give mobility, which is pretty handy. Anyway I wouldnt entirely disagree that photon forge is a bit of a mismatch. Reaper shroud has 5 skills that synergise well, and is brutally powerful to the point that the entire class focuses around it. Photon forge on the other hand is 5 seemingly disconnected abilities, which are mediocre (or outright useless in case of photon blitz), and you simply *cant* focus on it. It feels like they didnt want to double down on having holosmith have a big powerful alternative form in exchange for drawbacks, so they made both the drawback and the alternative form way more minor than reaper shroud. Personally, I wouldnt mind if they gave it more of a drawback in exchange for an actually powerful and cohesive Photon Forge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all. > > > > > > Side by side comparison https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Shroud and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Forge . You can click them one by one and notice that one has larger cast time and longer cooldown while having almost similar scaling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, lets go side by side. Lets start with autos. Reapers Autos surprisingly are slightly faster to cast (2.4 seconds vs holos 2.5). Reapers attack chain has a total coefficient of 2.326. Photon Forges autos have a total coefficient of 2.132. Reapers autos are faster and do more damage. Id like to compare skill 2s, but I dont have a Reaper character. And the wiki is clearly missing damage. Lets put a pin in that. Skill 3, different uses. Corona burst provides a bit of damage. Infusing Terror proves a 20% damage reduction, stability (which Engineer lacks now) and the ability for a brief AoE fear. Id probably take the latter simply because utility and survivability are better than just "more damage", but lets call it inconclusive. > > > > > > > > > > Now we get the big differences. Soul Spiral does similar DPS compared to Photon Blitz, however its AoE, a guaranteed whirl finisher, applies very useful poison and isnt a projectile that can be stopped. And finally, shockwave vs executioners. Engineer cant move during shockwaves cast, Reaper can. Reaper has a slightly longer cast time, but CCs for more than twice as long. And he creates an ice field. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so far Reaper is definitely better, but not by much. Here is the kicker though: I didnt mention the thing that makes Reaper Shroud so good. Reaper Onslaught. Take everything I have said so far, and now assume that the skills take half as long to cast and hit harder. Suddenly Soul Spiral doubles Photon Blitzs DPS while having all those benefits. Suddenly the auto hits more than twice as hard as Holos auto. Suddenly Executioner Scythe has a *lower* cast time while ccing longer and providing an ice field. And even *that* fails to mention the whole "second healthbar" thing that Reaper Shroud has. Or that that second healthbar takes *50%* damage. > > > > Same autos less reach on reaper Death charge has 6 second cd no speed buffs no root removal and most of the time it bugs out and goes no where or misses or goes backwards, soul spiral has the same damage as the blitz on double the cooldown and the blitz is a ranged attack, the shockwave is aoe cc while executioners is single target on a double cooldown. Dont pretend that Enhanced Capacity Storage unit(the passive might stacker) is not in the same space as Reaper Onslaught since 25 easy might is quite way more damage then quickness and as bonus it buffs Lasar's Edge to 22 1/2 % flat damage not crit Flat get some nades and do better aoe damage then reaper. Ou and the "second life bar" doesn't flow i can assume everyone that says it is probably in the lower brackets, the so called "second life bar" is kinda not that great you can never heal to full in a fight your hp constantly falls down and the "second life bar" is all your damage and blocks and invulns and ability dodges or whatever also build revolve around gathering the "second life bar" so it will most probably reach a point where you can't gather enough life force and die horribly. Also the shroud locks you out of utilities so no condition cleanse no stunbreaks. Reaper has to focus fully on the shroud to make it work, holo currently doesn't it just adds power creep to base engi and doesn't earn its god mode, the drawback is not even a drawback, how bad you have to be to blow up with holo. Maybe if holo had more cd and heat was actual mechanic we would see more holos blowing up. > > > > > > Oh boy, wall of text. Lets go over it. "Same autos less reach" higher damage autos. But yeah, slightly lower range. Oh but I guess the last attack in reapers chain has an actual side effect, which holos doesnt. Deaths charge blinds, and Im fairly certain hits far higher, but with the wiki being incomplete I cant say how much higher. Soul Spiral is the same, but its AoE instead of ranged. AoE is better than ranged. And it has poison. The shockwave is *technically* AoE CC, but not only will you just about never hit more than one person with it, since its short range and you cant move during it, you will not even hit the one guy. Enhanced Capacity Storage unit indeed *isnt* the same space. 25 might is a _**LOT**_ less extra damage than quickness (Off the top of my head its about 30% extra damage on 25 might, which mind you even with capacity storage unit you dont get anywhere close to consistnetly, vs 100% extra damage from quickness). Lasers Edge scales linearly. It will *never* hit 22.5%. It will usually however around 15-20%. Thats incidentally as much or less than the 20% the 300 ferocity add. > > > > > > The second health bar is absolutely amazing. Its just a ton of free health, which you obtain at rates much faster than lifestealing. Well, free health that takes half the damage. And Reaper can obtain that lifeforce quickly and consistently. Enough for it to be full health every time? Probably not. But its still a whole lot better than not having any. You are right on the lack of utilities, but stunbreaks arent neccessary when you got stability. Condis suck though, but then again, you get free health to deal with those, and you convert them when deactivating. > > > > > > But no. Reaper doesnt have to focus on the shroud to make it work. The shroud would be insane even without it. But thats the thing. Its so insane that focusing on it just makes sense. Its what carries the build, might as well go all out on it, no? Anyway, the thing is that photon forge is very, *very* far from a "god mode". Its a mediocre kit. The drawback is a loss of F5. Its not much, but Holo also just doesnt gain much outside of traits. The photon forge itself is, again, a mediocre kit. If it had a longer cooldown and heat was an actual mechanic, nothing would change. You go into it to use corona burst and holo leap, and drop it as soon as you can. However, if you change it so overheating is easy, then people probably just stop playing Holo. > > > > > > > Dont you think the holo traitline is a little bit stacked by having % boost + semi adrenal health passive + might generator ,people usually dip in 2 or 3 traitlines to gain the same results. > > > > > > Not really? Reaper for examples gives % boost, a stronger healing passive, and a quickness generator. Oh and another damage boost that I totally forgot about. Elite specs usually have multiple things in one traitline to be pretty general. Holosmith is not unusual here, at all. > > Which of the two can play different roles without hindrance,which one can 1v1, which one can bunker if so wills it.The reaper kit just works for teamfights and it doesn't work outside of that, and currently holo does not have a niche it can be whatever it wants to be it is even contesting reaper on the aoe teamfight just by having grande kit. If holo forge was so mediocre why dont you just play scrapper or core. I compare the shroud and the forge cause one is clearly designed to a fulfill specific goal along with its class, while the other does not take into account the class. kitten all PoF specks are total kitten. > > > > Uh, both? Reaper is better at teamfighting, but can 1v1 too. Holo is better at 1v1ing, but can teamfight too. As for bunker, Holo cant really bunker anymore. Reaper probably can, but I doubt its worth it. Holo has a niche, its a sidenoder. Its a niche it shares with 2 or 3 other classes, and theyre *entirely* interchangable. All that matters is knockbacks, and the fact that damage is too low. > > 3 reasons. The most important one is sword. Power scrapper and core engineer do not have a good mainhand weapon, so they cant use shield. But Holo can. And shield is really, *really* good. Scrapper has an even bigger issue in that hammer doesnt have a knockback. So it lacks the most critical tool a sidenoder can have. Rifle is just not nearly as good. Second, the traits. Condi conversion, damage up (in particular might), and a bit of sustain. And third, photon forge while mediocre as a damage tool, does give mobility, which is pretty handy. > > Anyway I wouldnt entirely disagree that photon forge is a bit of a mismatch. Reaper shroud has 5 skills that synergise well, and is brutally powerful to the point that the entire class focuses around it. Photon forge on the other hand is 5 seemingly disconnected abilities, which are mediocre (or outright useless in case of photon blitz), and you simply *cant* focus on it. It feels like they didnt want to double down on having holosmith have a big powerful alternative form in exchange for drawbacks, so they made both the drawback and the alternative form way more minor than reaper shroud. Personally, I wouldnt mind if they gave it more of a drawback in exchange for an actually powerful and cohesive Photon Forge. Lol 1v1 with reaper, seems pointless to talk after that argument.Also bunker Reaper even more lolz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all. > > > > > > > Side by side comparison https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Shroud and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Forge . You can click them one by one and notice that one has larger cast time and longer cooldown while having almost similar scaling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, lets go side by side. Lets start with autos. Reapers Autos surprisingly are slightly faster to cast (2.4 seconds vs holos 2.5). Reapers attack chain has a total coefficient of 2.326. Photon Forges autos have a total coefficient of 2.132. Reapers autos are faster and do more damage. Id like to compare skill 2s, but I dont have a Reaper character. And the wiki is clearly missing damage. Lets put a pin in that. Skill 3, different uses. Corona burst provides a bit of damage. Infusing Terror proves a 20% damage reduction, stability (which Engineer lacks now) and the ability for a brief AoE fear. Id probably take the latter simply because utility and survivability are better than just "more damage", but lets call it inconclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we get the big differences. Soul Spiral does similar DPS compared to Photon Blitz, however its AoE, a guaranteed whirl finisher, applies very useful poison and isnt a projectile that can be stopped. And finally, shockwave vs executioners. Engineer cant move during shockwaves cast, Reaper can. Reaper has a slightly longer cast time, but CCs for more than twice as long. And he creates an ice field. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so far Reaper is definitely better, but not by much. Here is the kicker though: I didnt mention the thing that makes Reaper Shroud so good. Reaper Onslaught. Take everything I have said so far, and now assume that the skills take half as long to cast and hit harder. Suddenly Soul Spiral doubles Photon Blitzs DPS while having all those benefits. Suddenly the auto hits more than twice as hard as Holos auto. Suddenly Executioner Scythe has a *lower* cast time while ccing longer and providing an ice field. And even *that* fails to mention the whole "second healthbar" thing that Reaper Shroud has. Or that that second healthbar takes *50%* damage. > > > > > Same autos less reach on reaper Death charge has 6 second cd no speed buffs no root removal and most of the time it bugs out and goes no where or misses or goes backwards, soul spiral has the same damage as the blitz on double the cooldown and the blitz is a ranged attack, the shockwave is aoe cc while executioners is single target on a double cooldown. Dont pretend that Enhanced Capacity Storage unit(the passive might stacker) is not in the same space as Reaper Onslaught since 25 easy might is quite way more damage then quickness and as bonus it buffs Lasar's Edge to 22 1/2 % flat damage not crit Flat get some nades and do better aoe damage then reaper. Ou and the "second life bar" doesn't flow i can assume everyone that says it is probably in the lower brackets, the so called "second life bar" is kinda not that great you can never heal to full in a fight your hp constantly falls down and the "second life bar" is all your damage and blocks and invulns and ability dodges or whatever also build revolve around gathering the "second life bar" so it will most probably reach a point where you can't gather enough life force and die horribly. Also the shroud locks you out of utilities so no condition cleanse no stunbreaks. Reaper has to focus fully on the shroud to make it work, holo currently doesn't it just adds power creep to base engi and doesn't earn its god mode, the drawback is not even a drawback, how bad you have to be to blow up with holo. Maybe if holo had more cd and heat was actual mechanic we would see more holos blowing up. > > > > > > > > Oh boy, wall of text. Lets go over it. "Same autos less reach" higher damage autos. But yeah, slightly lower range. Oh but I guess the last attack in reapers chain has an actual side effect, which holos doesnt. Deaths charge blinds, and Im fairly certain hits far higher, but with the wiki being incomplete I cant say how much higher. Soul Spiral is the same, but its AoE instead of ranged. AoE is better than ranged. And it has poison. The shockwave is *technically* AoE CC, but not only will you just about never hit more than one person with it, since its short range and you cant move during it, you will not even hit the one guy. Enhanced Capacity Storage unit indeed *isnt* the same space. 25 might is a _**LOT**_ less extra damage than quickness (Off the top of my head its about 30% extra damage on 25 might, which mind you even with capacity storage unit you dont get anywhere close to consistnetly, vs 100% extra damage from quickness). Lasers Edge scales linearly. It will *never* hit 22.5%. It will usually however around 15-20%. Thats incidentally as much or less than the 20% the 300 ferocity add. > > > > > > > > The second health bar is absolutely amazing. Its just a ton of free health, which you obtain at rates much faster than lifestealing. Well, free health that takes half the damage. And Reaper can obtain that lifeforce quickly and consistently. Enough for it to be full health every time? Probably not. But its still a whole lot better than not having any. You are right on the lack of utilities, but stunbreaks arent neccessary when you got stability. Condis suck though, but then again, you get free health to deal with those, and you convert them when deactivating. > > > > > > > > But no. Reaper doesnt have to focus on the shroud to make it work. The shroud would be insane even without it. But thats the thing. Its so insane that focusing on it just makes sense. Its what carries the build, might as well go all out on it, no? Anyway, the thing is that photon forge is very, *very* far from a "god mode". Its a mediocre kit. The drawback is a loss of F5. Its not much, but Holo also just doesnt gain much outside of traits. The photon forge itself is, again, a mediocre kit. If it had a longer cooldown and heat was an actual mechanic, nothing would change. You go into it to use corona burst and holo leap, and drop it as soon as you can. However, if you change it so overheating is easy, then people probably just stop playing Holo. > > > > > > > > > Dont you think the holo traitline is a little bit stacked by having % boost + semi adrenal health passive + might generator ,people usually dip in 2 or 3 traitlines to gain the same results. > > > > > > > > Not really? Reaper for examples gives % boost, a stronger healing passive, and a quickness generator. Oh and another damage boost that I totally forgot about. Elite specs usually have multiple things in one traitline to be pretty general. Holosmith is not unusual here, at all. > > > Which of the two can play different roles without hindrance,which one can 1v1, which one can bunker if so wills it.The reaper kit just works for teamfights and it doesn't work outside of that, and currently holo does not have a niche it can be whatever it wants to be it is even contesting reaper on the aoe teamfight just by having grande kit. If holo forge was so mediocre why dont you just play scrapper or core. I compare the shroud and the forge cause one is clearly designed to a fulfill specific goal along with its class, while the other does not take into account the class. kitten all PoF specks are total kitten. > > > > > > > Uh, both? Reaper is better at teamfighting, but can 1v1 too. Holo is better at 1v1ing, but can teamfight too. As for bunker, Holo cant really bunker anymore. Reaper probably can, but I doubt its worth it. Holo has a niche, its a sidenoder. Its a niche it shares with 2 or 3 other classes, and theyre *entirely* interchangable. All that matters is knockbacks, and the fact that damage is too low. > > > > 3 reasons. The most important one is sword. Power scrapper and core engineer do not have a good mainhand weapon, so they cant use shield. But Holo can. And shield is really, *really* good. Scrapper has an even bigger issue in that hammer doesnt have a knockback. So it lacks the most critical tool a sidenoder can have. Rifle is just not nearly as good. Second, the traits. Condi conversion, damage up (in particular might), and a bit of sustain. And third, photon forge while mediocre as a damage tool, does give mobility, which is pretty handy. > > > > Anyway I wouldnt entirely disagree that photon forge is a bit of a mismatch. Reaper shroud has 5 skills that synergise well, and is brutally powerful to the point that the entire class focuses around it. Photon forge on the other hand is 5 seemingly disconnected abilities, which are mediocre (or outright useless in case of photon blitz), and you simply *cant* focus on it. It feels like they didnt want to double down on having holosmith have a big powerful alternative form in exchange for drawbacks, so they made both the drawback and the alternative form way more minor than reaper shroud. Personally, I wouldnt mind if they gave it more of a drawback in exchange for an actually powerful and cohesive Photon Forge. > Lol 1v1 with reaper, seems pointless to talk after that argument. > Why are you so surprised to hear about something that happened multiple times in the MOTA? Like, we saw Boyce fight 1v1 multiple times in the finals alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Why are you so surprised to hear about something that happened multiple times in the MOTA? Like, we saw Boyce fight 1v1 multiple times in the finals alone. I think a miracle occurred, but I actually agree with you on that one. Reaper is an underrated counter to holo. Chill is good for their out-of-forge mobility. For photon forge, cd increases are relevant. Also boonrip is hug. Reaper is not extremely annoyed by blind. The natural damage reduction of shroud and holo's lack of cc makes it hard for the holo. It depends but if the enemy doesn't have a teamfight comp, I'd put my weak sidenoder (warrior, prev etc) on the teamfight instead, so that my reaper can 1v1 holo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N A T E.3108 Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 Complete side note: even with the balance changes that are coming next week, I think the topic of this discussion is still entirely relevant. This balance update doesn’t really do too much for the game and, in the grand scheme of things, likely is just a precursor to larger changes. This means that this topic is still something that needs to be addressed because balance still is going to suck and build diversity is still going to be trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Yeah dude maybe in 6 more months they'll nerf the things that people have been talking about for weeks now... Why did condi thief and owl pet get nerfed so quickly but engineer and protect me(ranger sustain in general) are being completely ignored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all. > > > > > > > > Side by side comparison https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Shroud and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Forge . You can click them one by one and notice that one has larger cast time and longer cooldown while having almost similar scaling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, lets go side by side. Lets start with autos. Reapers Autos surprisingly are slightly faster to cast (2.4 seconds vs holos 2.5). Reapers attack chain has a total coefficient of 2.326. Photon Forges autos have a total coefficient of 2.132. Reapers autos are faster and do more damage. Id like to compare skill 2s, but I dont have a Reaper character. And the wiki is clearly missing damage. Lets put a pin in that. Skill 3, different uses. Corona burst provides a bit of damage. Infusing Terror proves a 20% damage reduction, stability (which Engineer lacks now) and the ability for a brief AoE fear. Id probably take the latter simply because utility and survivability are better than just "more damage", but lets call it inconclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we get the big differences. Soul Spiral does similar DPS compared to Photon Blitz, however its AoE, a guaranteed whirl finisher, applies very useful poison and isnt a projectile that can be stopped. And finally, shockwave vs executioners. Engineer cant move during shockwaves cast, Reaper can. Reaper has a slightly longer cast time, but CCs for more than twice as long. And he creates an ice field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so far Reaper is definitely better, but not by much. Here is the kicker though: I didnt mention the thing that makes Reaper Shroud so good. Reaper Onslaught. Take everything I have said so far, and now assume that the skills take half as long to cast and hit harder. Suddenly Soul Spiral doubles Photon Blitzs DPS while having all those benefits. Suddenly the auto hits more than twice as hard as Holos auto. Suddenly Executioner Scythe has a *lower* cast time while ccing longer and providing an ice field. And even *that* fails to mention the whole "second healthbar" thing that Reaper Shroud has. Or that that second healthbar takes *50%* damage. > > > > > > Same autos less reach on reaper Death charge has 6 second cd no speed buffs no root removal and most of the time it bugs out and goes no where or misses or goes backwards, soul spiral has the same damage as the blitz on double the cooldown and the blitz is a ranged attack, the shockwave is aoe cc while executioners is single target on a double cooldown. Dont pretend that Enhanced Capacity Storage unit(the passive might stacker) is not in the same space as Reaper Onslaught since 25 easy might is quite way more damage then quickness and as bonus it buffs Lasar's Edge to 22 1/2 % flat damage not crit Flat get some nades and do better aoe damage then reaper. Ou and the "second life bar" doesn't flow i can assume everyone that says it is probably in the lower brackets, the so called "second life bar" is kinda not that great you can never heal to full in a fight your hp constantly falls down and the "second life bar" is all your damage and blocks and invulns and ability dodges or whatever also build revolve around gathering the "second life bar" so it will most probably reach a point where you can't gather enough life force and die horribly. Also the shroud locks you out of utilities so no condition cleanse no stunbreaks. Reaper has to focus fully on the shroud to make it work, holo currently doesn't it just adds power creep to base engi and doesn't earn its god mode, the drawback is not even a drawback, how bad you have to be to blow up with holo. Maybe if holo had more cd and heat was actual mechanic we would see more holos blowing up. > > > > > > > > > > Oh boy, wall of text. Lets go over it. "Same autos less reach" higher damage autos. But yeah, slightly lower range. Oh but I guess the last attack in reapers chain has an actual side effect, which holos doesnt. Deaths charge blinds, and Im fairly certain hits far higher, but with the wiki being incomplete I cant say how much higher. Soul Spiral is the same, but its AoE instead of ranged. AoE is better than ranged. And it has poison. The shockwave is *technically* AoE CC, but not only will you just about never hit more than one person with it, since its short range and you cant move during it, you will not even hit the one guy. Enhanced Capacity Storage unit indeed *isnt* the same space. 25 might is a _**LOT**_ less extra damage than quickness (Off the top of my head its about 30% extra damage on 25 might, which mind you even with capacity storage unit you dont get anywhere close to consistnetly, vs 100% extra damage from quickness). Lasers Edge scales linearly. It will *never* hit 22.5%. It will usually however around 15-20%. Thats incidentally as much or less than the 20% the 300 ferocity add. > > > > > > > > > > The second health bar is absolutely amazing. Its just a ton of free health, which you obtain at rates much faster than lifestealing. Well, free health that takes half the damage. And Reaper can obtain that lifeforce quickly and consistently. Enough for it to be full health every time? Probably not. But its still a whole lot better than not having any. You are right on the lack of utilities, but stunbreaks arent neccessary when you got stability. Condis suck though, but then again, you get free health to deal with those, and you convert them when deactivating. > > > > > > > > > > But no. Reaper doesnt have to focus on the shroud to make it work. The shroud would be insane even without it. But thats the thing. Its so insane that focusing on it just makes sense. Its what carries the build, might as well go all out on it, no? Anyway, the thing is that photon forge is very, *very* far from a "god mode". Its a mediocre kit. The drawback is a loss of F5. Its not much, but Holo also just doesnt gain much outside of traits. The photon forge itself is, again, a mediocre kit. If it had a longer cooldown and heat was an actual mechanic, nothing would change. You go into it to use corona burst and holo leap, and drop it as soon as you can. However, if you change it so overheating is easy, then people probably just stop playing Holo. > > > > > > > > > > > Dont you think the holo traitline is a little bit stacked by having % boost + semi adrenal health passive + might generator ,people usually dip in 2 or 3 traitlines to gain the same results. > > > > > > > > > > Not really? Reaper for examples gives % boost, a stronger healing passive, and a quickness generator. Oh and another damage boost that I totally forgot about. Elite specs usually have multiple things in one traitline to be pretty general. Holosmith is not unusual here, at all. > > > > Which of the two can play different roles without hindrance,which one can 1v1, which one can bunker if so wills it.The reaper kit just works for teamfights and it doesn't work outside of that, and currently holo does not have a niche it can be whatever it wants to be it is even contesting reaper on the aoe teamfight just by having grande kit. If holo forge was so mediocre why dont you just play scrapper or core. I compare the shroud and the forge cause one is clearly designed to a fulfill specific goal along with its class, while the other does not take into account the class. kitten all PoF specks are total kitten. > > > > > > > > > > Uh, both? Reaper is better at teamfighting, but can 1v1 too. Holo is better at 1v1ing, but can teamfight too. As for bunker, Holo cant really bunker anymore. Reaper probably can, but I doubt its worth it. Holo has a niche, its a sidenoder. Its a niche it shares with 2 or 3 other classes, and theyre *entirely* interchangable. All that matters is knockbacks, and the fact that damage is too low. > > > > > > 3 reasons. The most important one is sword. Power scrapper and core engineer do not have a good mainhand weapon, so they cant use shield. But Holo can. And shield is really, *really* good. Scrapper has an even bigger issue in that hammer doesnt have a knockback. So it lacks the most critical tool a sidenoder can have. Rifle is just not nearly as good. Second, the traits. Condi conversion, damage up (in particular might), and a bit of sustain. And third, photon forge while mediocre as a damage tool, does give mobility, which is pretty handy. > > > > > > Anyway I wouldnt entirely disagree that photon forge is a bit of a mismatch. Reaper shroud has 5 skills that synergise well, and is brutally powerful to the point that the entire class focuses around it. Photon forge on the other hand is 5 seemingly disconnected abilities, which are mediocre (or outright useless in case of photon blitz), and you simply *cant* focus on it. It feels like they didnt want to double down on having holosmith have a big powerful alternative form in exchange for drawbacks, so they made both the drawback and the alternative form way more minor than reaper shroud. Personally, I wouldnt mind if they gave it more of a drawback in exchange for an actually powerful and cohesive Photon Forge. > > Lol 1v1 with reaper, seems pointless to talk after that argument. > > > > Why are you so surprised to hear about something that happened multiple times in the MOTA? Like, we saw Boyce fight 1v1 multiple times in the finals alone. Stalling is not the same as 1v1, if you know you will get support or gank at some point it is quite different and Boyce is champ he could probably win 1v1 with just WASD keys and a stick. Let me explain you why it is a bad idea to duel builds that excel at that, at some point you run out of life force generation. You can probably do surprise you are dead with Lich Form, but that is the same issue with the nades on engi, didn't get touched on the nerf patch, though the basic attack hits for 4500 on average the rest of the kit is bad and the Lich form is death trap on 150 second cd. Currently Holo has too much "you have to dodge this" skills, you have dodge their heal, their after dodge effect, their forge and the grenades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PF > RS imo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you havent played with either. Its no comparision, Reaper Shroud is a *vastly* superior form. Which I mean, it has to be, it carries reaper all on its own. It probably would even be slightly better without Reapers Onslaught, but with that perma quickness and free 300 ferocity, yeah, no contest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying Reaper Shroud isn't strong but the accessibility of Photon Forge makes it better imo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesnt. Reaper Shroud makes Reaper as good as it is. Its a massive DPS boost, as well as providing a lot of survivability, CC, utility and even a bit of mobility. Photon Forge by comparision provides mobility and a minor DPS boost. Reaper shroud still is much stronger. Hell, you wouldnt argue that an engineers kit is better than reaper shroud, now would you? And those are more accessible (and arguably photon forge is just a mediocre kit). > > > > > > > > > > > > Photon Forge is a minor DPS boost? That's an understatement. > > > > > > > > > > Its not. It is actually *incredibly* minor. You have corona burst which is decent, and holo leap which is alright. But sword + grenade kit is almost as good. Its pretty much just the 2 corona bursts that barely pull holoforge ahead, but again, only barely. > > > > > > > > Photon forge autos do big damage. > > > > > > *Less* than sword autos on the most common heat thresholds. Autoing in forge is a DPS loss compared to outside of forge. But you dont have much better things to do. > > > > Idk both PF and RS are good, this isn't important to me at all so I'm just gonna leave it here. > > Photon Forge is good for mobility. And its good to enable the good traits. But as a skill bar? I wouldnt even play it over sword/shield. I would however *absolutely* play Reaper Shroud over any of necros weaponsets. Or most classes skill bars, for that matter. reaper shroud is entire class mechanic. It takes place over ENTIRE necro shroud. holo forge takes over 1 F skill. when you go holo you have 4 F skills AND holo forge. So reaper goes shroud and thats it. Holo both has its forge AND aoe superspeed, aoe boon generation, aoe nuke and low cd aoe stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > reaper shroud is entire class mechanic. It takes place over ENTIRE necro shroud. > holo forge takes over 1 F skill. > when you go holo you have 4 F skills AND holo forge. > So reaper goes shroud and thats it. > Holo both has its forge AND aoe superspeed, aoe boon generation, aoe nuke and low cd aoe stealth. > Since when is a cd of 36 seconds considered "low cd"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Lower cooldown than any thief(the master of stealth) stealth utility btw. Jack of all trades, master of all, strikes again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > reaper shroud is entire class mechanic. It takes place over ENTIRE necro shroud. > > holo forge takes over 1 F skill. > > when you go holo you have 4 F skills AND holo forge. > > So reaper goes shroud and thats it. > > Holo both has its forge AND aoe superspeed, aoe boon generation, aoe nuke and low cd aoe stealth. > > > > Since when is a cd of 36 seconds considered "low cd"? > since other similar skills have twice its cooldown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > reaper shroud is entire class mechanic. It takes place over ENTIRE necro shroud. > > > holo forge takes over 1 F skill. > > > when you go holo you have 4 F skills AND holo forge. > > > So reaper goes shroud and thats it. > > > Holo both has its forge AND aoe superspeed, aoe boon generation, aoe nuke and low cd aoe stealth. > > > > > > > Since when is a cd of 36 seconds considered "low cd"? > > > > since other similar skills have twice its cooldown Like which skills? The only skill that would be a fair comparison for Toss Elixir S would be thief's Blinding Powder. Which also is a stunbreak, gives a short duration of stability, blinds nearby enemies and has **less** cd than Toss Elixir S. Mass Invisibility does the same Toss Elixir S does, but also is easier to use in combat since it stealths everyone in a 1200 radius while Toss Elixir S needs to get properly aimed to stealth more people than just the engineer during combat. But granted, this might be the one you are referring here, which is just 1 example. Veil is way more potent than Toss Elixir S, since it has no target cap. It is easily possible to stealth an entire zerg with that skill, something that is not possible with Toss Elixir S. Shadow Refuge can't get compared with Toss Elixir S, since it additionally heals all allies affected and also provides a combo field. And the heal is actually pretty big, it would be weird if this skill wouldn't have a higher cd. Then there are all the skills which just stealth the user, which have all lower cd than Toss Elixir S. So yeah, there is 1 "comparable" skill with higher cd, Mass Invisibility. The other AoE skills either have lower cd or have a higher cd simply because they also got alot of other stuff added to them or are simply way stronger as a stealthing device than Toss Elixir S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > Lower cooldown than any thief(the master of stealth) stealth utility btw. > > Jack of all trades, master of all, strikes again. Excuse me? Blinding Powder: Has lower cd than Toss Elixir S and also is a stunbreak, gives a short duration stability, blinds nearby enemies. Shadow Gust: Has lower cd than Toss Elixir S, knocks enemies back and deals slight damage. The **ONLY** thief utility skills which stealth and have higher cd than Toss Elixir S are Shadow Refuge and Shadow Portal. The first has a pretty good healing and revives downed players, the other is a fricking portal, so these make sense to have higher cd. If we count healing skills as "utility skills", then there is also Hide in Shadows, which also has lower cd. Like, come on. Even if you seem to really hate engineers, at least make an effort to check the facts before throwing out arguments which can't withstand a quick search on the wiki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 You said 36 second cooldown, which is lower than 40. It's true the base cooldown is only 5 higher than blinding powder, but every single eng build takes alchemy a HGH does it not? Not every thief build takes SA - and if it does, 5 seconds is still far too close for "jack of all trades" considering it's also on your must-take invul utility. Your class doesn't deserve to have access to stealth at all outside of smoke fields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > reaper shroud is entire class mechanic. It takes place over ENTIRE necro shroud. > > > > holo forge takes over 1 F skill. > > > > when you go holo you have 4 F skills AND holo forge. > > > > So reaper goes shroud and thats it. > > > > Holo both has its forge AND aoe superspeed, aoe boon generation, aoe nuke and low cd aoe stealth. > > > > > > > > > > Since when is a cd of 36 seconds considered "low cd"? > > > > > > > since other similar skills have twice its cooldown > > Like which skills? The only skill that would be a fair comparison for Toss Elixir S would be thief's Blinding Powder. Which also is a stunbreak, gives a short duration of stability, blinds nearby enemies and has **less** cd than Toss Elixir S. > > Mass Invisibility does the same Toss Elixir S does, but also is easier to use in combat since it stealths everyone in a 1200 radius while Toss Elixir S needs to get properly aimed to stealth more people than just the engineer during combat. But granted, this might be the one you are referring here, which is just 1 example. > > Veil is way more potent than Toss Elixir S, since it has no target cap. It is easily possible to stealth an entire zerg with that skill, something that is not possible with Toss Elixir S. > > Shadow Refuge can't get compared with Toss Elixir S, since it additionally heals all allies affected and also provides a combo field. And the heal is actually pretty big, it would be weird if this skill wouldn't have a higher cd. > > Then there are all the skills which just stealth the user, which have all lower cd than Toss Elixir S. > So yeah, there is 1 "comparable" skill with higher cd, Mass Invisibility. The other AoE skills either have lower cd or have a higher cd simply because they also got alot of other stuff added to them or are simply way stronger as a stealthing device than Toss Elixir S. you are grasping at straws, if you are compering veil with toss elixir s. blinding power is also single target stealth for thief, not an aoe. mass invis has twice the cooldown, occupies elite slot and has over twice the cast time, and if you need to stealth allies you will do it equally good. its qol change for half the cd, half the cast time and some extra might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > you are grasping at straws, if you are compering veil with toss elixir s. > blinding power is also single target stealth for thief, not an aoe. > mass invis has twice the cooldown, occupies elite slot and has over twice the cast time, and if you need to stealth allies you will do it equally good. > its qol change for half the cd, half the cast time and some extra might. Why is comparing veil with toss elixir s grasping at straws? I asked you which skills you mean if you say the "other comparable" skills have twice the cooldown. I thought that you maybe consider veil here, since it also AoE stealths. But like I said, it is way more potent. And at least according to the wiki, blinding powder stealths nearby allies, not just the thief themselves. >Blind nearby foes and grant stealth to nearby allies. Maybe that is incorrect, I might have to check it in game. But at least according to the wiki, it is AoE stealth. And if this is the case (will test it right after doing Tarir right now), then this still leaves us with just 1 "comparable skills" you provided as an example: mass invisibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > you are grasping at straws, if you are compering veil with toss elixir s. > > blinding power is also single target stealth for thief, not an aoe. > > mass invis has twice the cooldown, occupies elite slot and has over twice the cast time, and if you need to stealth allies you will do it equally good. > > its qol change for half the cd, half the cast time and some extra might. > > Why is comparing veil with toss elixir s grasping at straws? I asked you which skills you mean if you say the "other comparable" skills have twice the cooldown. > I thought that you maybe consider veil here, since it also AoE stealths. But like I said, it is way more potent. > > And at least according to the wiki, blinding powder stealths nearby allies, not just the thief themselves. > > >Blind nearby foes and grant stealth to nearby allies. > > Maybe that is incorrect, I might have to check it in game. But at least according to the wiki, it is AoE stealth. > And if this is the case (will test it right after doing Tarir right now), then this still leaves us with just 1 "comparable skills" you provided as an example: mass invisibility. > > I am proven wrong, didnt know BP is aoe stealth. but comparing veil to toss S is like cmon bruh. most aoe stealth has drawbacks to it, smoke fields you have to actively blast, mass invis has huge cast time and cooldown, vail is just garbage all around, shadow refuge is large cooldown, you are restricted to its area, and if you leave it you lose the stealth AND get revealed then yes, BP is the only skill that is similar to toss S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all. > > > > > > > > > Side by side comparison https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Shroud and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Forge . You can click them one by one and notice that one has larger cast time and longer cooldown while having almost similar scaling. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, lets go side by side. Lets start with autos. Reapers Autos surprisingly are slightly faster to cast (2.4 seconds vs holos 2.5). Reapers attack chain has a total coefficient of 2.326. Photon Forges autos have a total coefficient of 2.132. Reapers autos are faster and do more damage. Id like to compare skill 2s, but I dont have a Reaper character. And the wiki is clearly missing damage. Lets put a pin in that. Skill 3, different uses. Corona burst provides a bit of damage. Infusing Terror proves a 20% damage reduction, stability (which Engineer lacks now) and the ability for a brief AoE fear. Id probably take the latter simply because utility and survivability are better than just "more damage", but lets call it inconclusive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now we get the big differences. Soul Spiral does similar DPS compared to Photon Blitz, however its AoE, a guaranteed whirl finisher, applies very useful poison and isnt a projectile that can be stopped. And finally, shockwave vs executioners. Engineer cant move during shockwaves cast, Reaper can. Reaper has a slightly longer cast time, but CCs for more than twice as long. And he creates an ice field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, so far Reaper is definitely better, but not by much. Here is the kicker though: I didnt mention the thing that makes Reaper Shroud so good. Reaper Onslaught. Take everything I have said so far, and now assume that the skills take half as long to cast and hit harder. Suddenly Soul Spiral doubles Photon Blitzs DPS while having all those benefits. Suddenly the auto hits more than twice as hard as Holos auto. Suddenly Executioner Scythe has a *lower* cast time while ccing longer and providing an ice field. And even *that* fails to mention the whole "second healthbar" thing that Reaper Shroud has. Or that that second healthbar takes *50%* damage. > > > > > > > Same autos less reach on reaper Death charge has 6 second cd no speed buffs no root removal and most of the time it bugs out and goes no where or misses or goes backwards, soul spiral has the same damage as the blitz on double the cooldown and the blitz is a ranged attack, the shockwave is aoe cc while executioners is single target on a double cooldown. Dont pretend that Enhanced Capacity Storage unit(the passive might stacker) is not in the same space as Reaper Onslaught since 25 easy might is quite way more damage then quickness and as bonus it buffs Lasar's Edge to 22 1/2 % flat damage not crit Flat get some nades and do better aoe damage then reaper. Ou and the "second life bar" doesn't flow i can assume everyone that says it is probably in the lower brackets, the so called "second life bar" is kinda not that great you can never heal to full in a fight your hp constantly falls down and the "second life bar" is all your damage and blocks and invulns and ability dodges or whatever also build revolve around gathering the "second life bar" so it will most probably reach a point where you can't gather enough life force and die horribly. Also the shroud locks you out of utilities so no condition cleanse no stunbreaks. Reaper has to focus fully on the shroud to make it work, holo currently doesn't it just adds power creep to base engi and doesn't earn its god mode, the drawback is not even a drawback, how bad you have to be to blow up with holo. Maybe if holo had more cd and heat was actual mechanic we would see more holos blowing up. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh boy, wall of text. Lets go over it. "Same autos less reach" higher damage autos. But yeah, slightly lower range. Oh but I guess the last attack in reapers chain has an actual side effect, which holos doesnt. Deaths charge blinds, and Im fairly certain hits far higher, but with the wiki being incomplete I cant say how much higher. Soul Spiral is the same, but its AoE instead of ranged. AoE is better than ranged. And it has poison. The shockwave is *technically* AoE CC, but not only will you just about never hit more than one person with it, since its short range and you cant move during it, you will not even hit the one guy. Enhanced Capacity Storage unit indeed *isnt* the same space. 25 might is a _**LOT**_ less extra damage than quickness (Off the top of my head its about 30% extra damage on 25 might, which mind you even with capacity storage unit you dont get anywhere close to consistnetly, vs 100% extra damage from quickness). Lasers Edge scales linearly. It will *never* hit 22.5%. It will usually however around 15-20%. Thats incidentally as much or less than the 20% the 300 ferocity add. > > > > > > > > > > > > The second health bar is absolutely amazing. Its just a ton of free health, which you obtain at rates much faster than lifestealing. Well, free health that takes half the damage. And Reaper can obtain that lifeforce quickly and consistently. Enough for it to be full health every time? Probably not. But its still a whole lot better than not having any. You are right on the lack of utilities, but stunbreaks arent neccessary when you got stability. Condis suck though, but then again, you get free health to deal with those, and you convert them when deactivating. > > > > > > > > > > > > But no. Reaper doesnt have to focus on the shroud to make it work. The shroud would be insane even without it. But thats the thing. Its so insane that focusing on it just makes sense. Its what carries the build, might as well go all out on it, no? Anyway, the thing is that photon forge is very, *very* far from a "god mode". Its a mediocre kit. The drawback is a loss of F5. Its not much, but Holo also just doesnt gain much outside of traits. The photon forge itself is, again, a mediocre kit. If it had a longer cooldown and heat was an actual mechanic, nothing would change. You go into it to use corona burst and holo leap, and drop it as soon as you can. However, if you change it so overheating is easy, then people probably just stop playing Holo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dont you think the holo traitline is a little bit stacked by having % boost + semi adrenal health passive + might generator ,people usually dip in 2 or 3 traitlines to gain the same results. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really? Reaper for examples gives % boost, a stronger healing passive, and a quickness generator. Oh and another damage boost that I totally forgot about. Elite specs usually have multiple things in one traitline to be pretty general. Holosmith is not unusual here, at all. > > > > > Which of the two can play different roles without hindrance,which one can 1v1, which one can bunker if so wills it.The reaper kit just works for teamfights and it doesn't work outside of that, and currently holo does not have a niche it can be whatever it wants to be it is even contesting reaper on the aoe teamfight just by having grande kit. If holo forge was so mediocre why dont you just play scrapper or core. I compare the shroud and the forge cause one is clearly designed to a fulfill specific goal along with its class, while the other does not take into account the class. kitten all PoF specks are total kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, both? Reaper is better at teamfighting, but can 1v1 too. Holo is better at 1v1ing, but can teamfight too. As for bunker, Holo cant really bunker anymore. Reaper probably can, but I doubt its worth it. Holo has a niche, its a sidenoder. Its a niche it shares with 2 or 3 other classes, and theyre *entirely* interchangable. All that matters is knockbacks, and the fact that damage is too low. > > > > > > > > 3 reasons. The most important one is sword. Power scrapper and core engineer do not have a good mainhand weapon, so they cant use shield. But Holo can. And shield is really, *really* good. Scrapper has an even bigger issue in that hammer doesnt have a knockback. So it lacks the most critical tool a sidenoder can have. Rifle is just not nearly as good. Second, the traits. Condi conversion, damage up (in particular might), and a bit of sustain. And third, photon forge while mediocre as a damage tool, does give mobility, which is pretty handy. > > > > > > > > Anyway I wouldnt entirely disagree that photon forge is a bit of a mismatch. Reaper shroud has 5 skills that synergise well, and is brutally powerful to the point that the entire class focuses around it. Photon forge on the other hand is 5 seemingly disconnected abilities, which are mediocre (or outright useless in case of photon blitz), and you simply *cant* focus on it. It feels like they didnt want to double down on having holosmith have a big powerful alternative form in exchange for drawbacks, so they made both the drawback and the alternative form way more minor than reaper shroud. Personally, I wouldnt mind if they gave it more of a drawback in exchange for an actually powerful and cohesive Photon Forge. > > > Lol 1v1 with reaper, seems pointless to talk after that argument. > > > > > > > Why are you so surprised to hear about something that happened multiple times in the MOTA? Like, we saw Boyce fight 1v1 multiple times in the finals alone. > Stalling is not the same as 1v1, if you know you will get support or gank at some point it is quite different and Boyce is champ he could probably win 1v1 with just WASD keys and a stick. Let me explain you why it is a bad idea to duel builds that excel at that, at some point you run out of life force generation. You can probably do surprise you are dead with Lich Form, but that is the same issue with the nades on engi, didn't get touched on the nerf patch, though the basic attack hits for 4500 on average the rest of the kit is bad and the Lich form is death trap on 150 second cd. Right now stalling *is* the same as 1v1. You dont win a 1v1 without getting someone to +1 you. The damage just isnt there. You just get the enemy off the point with CC, and wait for someone to gank you. Reaper has fear which can do that, and well, surviving isnt an issue because again. Damage aint there. > Currently Holo has too much "you have to dodge this" skills, you have dodge their heal, their after dodge effect, their forge and the grenades. > Their heal (or rather lesser grenade barrage) is so extremely janky youll dodge almost all of it just by doing nothing. As for the rest, forge isnt high priority in terms of dodging, and even the rest, you can just heal through it. As I said, damage aint there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop acting like Forge on 5s CD isn't full of kitten. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If a Reaper Shroud was on a 5s CD instead of a 9s CD, do you have any idea how much stronger a Reaper would be? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Photon Forge was anywhere even *remotely* as strong as Reapers Shroud, then maybe the analogy would work better. As it is, its closer to a mediocre kit. Those have no cooldown at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PF > RS imo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you havent played with either. Its no comparision, Reaper Shroud is a *vastly* superior form. Which I mean, it has to be, it carries reaper all on its own. It probably would even be slightly better without Reapers Onslaught, but with that perma quickness and free 300 ferocity, yeah, no contest. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not saying Reaper Shroud isn't strong but the accessibility of Photon Forge makes it better imo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesnt. Reaper Shroud makes Reaper as good as it is. Its a massive DPS boost, as well as providing a lot of survivability, CC, utility and even a bit of mobility. Photon Forge by comparision provides mobility and a minor DPS boost. Reaper shroud still is much stronger. Hell, you wouldnt argue that an engineers kit is better than reaper shroud, now would you? And those are more accessible (and arguably photon forge is just a mediocre kit). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Photon Forge is a minor DPS boost? That's an understatement. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not. It is actually *incredibly* minor. You have corona burst which is decent, and holo leap which is alright. But sword + grenade kit is almost as good. Its pretty much just the 2 corona bursts that barely pull holoforge ahead, but again, only barely. > > > > > > > > > > Photon forge autos do big damage. > > > > > > > > *Less* than sword autos on the most common heat thresholds. Autoing in forge is a DPS loss compared to outside of forge. But you dont have much better things to do. > > > > > > Idk both PF and RS are good, this isn't important to me at all so I'm just gonna leave it here. > > > > Photon Forge is good for mobility. And its good to enable the good traits. But as a skill bar? I wouldnt even play it over sword/shield. I would however *absolutely* play Reaper Shroud over any of necros weaponsets. Or most classes skill bars, for that matter. > > reaper shroud is entire class mechanic. It takes place over ENTIRE necro shroud. > holo forge takes over 1 F skill. > when you go holo you have 4 F skills AND holo forge. > So reaper goes shroud and thats it. Yes, Reaper Shroud has a bigger drawback in exchange for a much bigger benefit. That was my point. Some people here want photon forge to be treated like reaper shroud without buffing the thing up to be comparable. > Holo both has its forge AND aoe superspeed, aoe boon generation, aoe nuke and low cd aoe stealth. > Those are all things core engineer has. Also, 45 seconds is "low cd"? Better not tell that to Ranger and their 16 second cd smokefield for AoE stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiago.5946 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 holo mode should be like shroud and disable all utilitys when active Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Thiago.5946" said: > holo mode should be like shroud and disable all utilitys when active Then it needs to be a lot better than it is right now. And I mean a *lot* better. Not sure people want that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugchriss.2046 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: >The issue with Holo isnt an issue with Holo at all. Its the fact that damage as a whole is just too low right now. Then how is that core and scrapper seem less broken then? I mean they both don't have PF nor holo traitline AND damage is still low for them too but yet perform way worse than holo. A simple deduction is Holo is performing either thanks to holo trait line either thanks to PF either thanks to both. Stating that "The issue with Holo isn't an issue with Holo at all" is actually one of the definitions of nonsense. Edit: and by the way, that statement can be applied to every broken meta build like: "The issue with crev isnt an issue with crev at all. Its the fact that damage as a whole is just too low right now" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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