New Balance Patch

[RisenHowl.2419]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> >

> > How applicable do you think your experience is to the majority of wvw players? You said the biggest groups you've played in are 5 people but you want to comment on fights of 30+/50+?

>

> Are you saying I am wrong about the lack of meaningful personal contribution, because that's simple math?

100% yes. a well placed bomb by 1 person can tip the scales and drop 5 people, which allows your team to rally. Same goes for a well placed CC bomb by 1 person, or 1 person with a banner, or 1 bubble at just the right time.

> Am I wrong about the terrible delay/delay caused by zergs, because I can easily notice that even when avoiding them.

You're right on about the lag, it's a huge problem. How does that apply to your lack of knowledge about the most popular way the game mode is played?

> Am I wrong about the fact that AoE caps are a 80%+ passive damage reduction mechanic? Because once again simple math.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, seems like it's out of left field.

> Also I am simply offering my perspective. Whether it's applicable to a majority is kinda hard to say, never claimed to speak for one.

You're trying to generalize your knowledge of small scale (<10 participants) to large scale (>50 participants) which doesn't make any sense.

> But players who aren't in massive blobs a majority of the time are definitively a significant amount. Then again I obviously don't speak for anyone but myself.

Maybe in the off hours of whatever server you play on. If your main focus in the game is small scale combat, why wouldn't you play pvp instead?

 

These aren't changes that will have a meaningful impact on small scale fights, but they will have a very detrimental effect on large scale fights. Which is why no one's complaining about scourge for small scale, which is why the entire conversation is about large scale- an area you have no experience in.

[Celsith.2753]

Having seen the developers pathetic attempts to play this game mode via their stream, I question not only their ability to make any informed decision regarding classes, build and synergy, but who the hell they are talking to in the player base.

[Celsith.2753]

> @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> I don't get how Rapid Shot isn't getting a damage/CD nerf, esp since it tracks enemies. Take out most of the health of mesmers, thieves, eles, etc.

> Imo, that's the biggest problem with rangers.

 

Probably because in it's current state, many classes/builds can literally _stand still and do nothing_ and survive it. If you are glassier and just eat it, it's going to be a problem.

There's also the tiny issue of rangers being unable to actually shoot anyone for 45+ seconds at a time due to the abundance of reflect thrown around.

Not to mention that the mesmer, thief and ele is capable of 100-0 the ranger just as quickly. You don't get to kill someone in 2s and not risk it happening to yourself.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

> @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > I don't get how Rapid Shot isn't getting a damage/CD nerf, esp since it tracks enemies. Take out most of the health of mesmers, thieves, eles, etc.

> > Imo, that's the biggest problem with rangers.

>

> Probably because in it's current state, many classes/builds can literally _stand still and do nothing_ and survive it. If you are glassier and just eat it, it's going to be a problem.

> There's also the tiny issue of rangers being unable to actually shoot anyone for 45+ seconds at a time due to the abundance of reflect thrown around.

> Not to mention that the mesmer, thief and ele is capable of 100-0 the ranger just as quickly. You don't get to kill someone in 2s and not risk it happening to yourself.

 

It at least shouldn't track in stealth tho. That part drives me up a wall. That along with other single-target skills that track in stealth

[Celsith.2753]

> @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > I don't get how Rapid Shot isn't getting a damage/CD nerf, esp since it tracks enemies. Take out most of the health of mesmers, thieves, eles, etc.

> > > Imo, that's the biggest problem with rangers.

> >

> > Probably because in it's current state, many classes/builds can literally _stand still and do nothing_ and survive it. If you are glassier and just eat it, it's going to be a problem.

> > There's also the tiny issue of rangers being unable to actually shoot anyone for 45+ seconds at a time due to the abundance of reflect thrown around.

> > Not to mention that the mesmer, thief and ele is capable of 100-0 the ranger just as quickly. You don't get to kill someone in 2s and not risk it happening to yourself.

>

> It at least shouldn't track in stealth tho. That part drives me up a wall. That along with other single-target skills that track in stealth

 

I understand your frustration as I mained thief for many years. I also understand the other point of view as I currently play ranger :) Any comment on that would likely still be biased on my part though.

[RisenHowl.2419]

What gets me is they don't know what builds are popularly abused. Immobeast has been up on metabattle for months. Stepping foot into wvw during prime time just for a night would be enough to learn it's broken @.@

 

But here we are, 4.5 months later, with a balance patch that's buffing scourge and leaving the other outliers alone. Tone deaf balance.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > >

> > > How applicable do you think your experience is to the majority of wvw players? You said the biggest groups you've played in are 5 people but you want to comment on fights of 30+/50+?

> >

> > Are you saying I am wrong about the lack of meaningful personal contribution, because that's simple math?

> 100% yes. a well placed bomb by 1 person can tip the scales and drop 5 people, which allows your team to rally. Same goes for a well placed CC bomb by 1 person, or 1 person with a banner, or 1 bubble at just the right time.

 

No. Just no. Unless large portions of the squad is more or less afk, a single player playing a bit better or worse have any meaningful impact.

 

> > Am I wrong about the terrible delay/delay caused by zergs, because I can easily notice that even when avoiding them.

> You're right on about the lag, it's a huge problem. How does that apply to your lack of knowledge about the most popular way the game mode is played?

 

So in any fight where there is massive lag/delay what I do matters very little. Every zerg fights have massive delay as they're the cause of it, therefore in every zerg fight one's actions matters very little.

 

> > Am I wrong about the fact that AoE caps are a 80%+ passive damage reduction mechanic? Because once again simple math.

> I'm not sure where you're going with this, seems like it's out of left field.

 

Well they're what causes scourge to be overpowered and ranger to be underpowered on largescale so feels relevant.

 

> > Also I am simply offering my perspective. Whether it's applicable to a majority is kinda hard to say, never claimed to speak for one.

> You're trying to generalize your knowledge of small scale (<10 participants) to large scale (>50 participants) which doesn't make any sense.

 

It's not something where one really needs a lot of experience to be knowledgeable.

 

Especially if one already has extensive experience with more complicated situations using the same mechanics.

 

> > But players who aren't in massive blobs a majority of the time are definitively a significant amount. Then again I obviously don't speak for anyone but myself.

> Maybe in the off hours of whatever server you play on. If your main focus in the game is small scale combat, why wouldn't you play pvp instead?

 

Well if you were to add up every player who isn't in the blobs and compare them to the amount who are at any given time, assuming blob starts at, say 16 players.

 

Then I think the people in blobs would still have a majority, but definitively not by a big margin, but really this is just guesswork, only anet can really answer what group is in a majority and by what margin (that is if they even track it).

 

Cause sPvP isn't about fighting, has terrible balance, forces symmetric fights and is overall garbage.

 

On a similar note, if you just wanna follow a tag and 1111, why wouldn't you just do open would PvE?

 

> These aren't changes that will have a meaningful impact on small scale fights, but they will have a very detrimental effect on large scale fights. Which is why no one's complaining about scourge for small scale, which is why the entire conversation is about large scale- an area you have no experience in.

 

Every now and then we run with a support scourge as a secondary healer, this will make that build much better and we will probably use it more often. Scourge as a support now has a bit better chance to compete with FB.

 

See meaningful impact right there.

 

Thought you didn't like people talking about subjects they lack experience with.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> What gets me is they don't know what builds are popularly abused. Immobeast has been up on metabattle for months. Stepping foot into wvw during prime time just for a night would be enough to learn it's broken @.@

 

Here I do agree with you fully.

 

Immob ranger (both SB and druid tbh) not even being, known about, is baffling.

 

Also saying the destroyable roots aren't a problem is the words of someone whose never tried actually destroying them.

 

During the stream they even get immob-spammed twice by a druid, moments after talking about it.

[RisenHowl.2419]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > >

> > > > How applicable do you think your experience is to the majority of wvw players? You said the biggest groups you've played in are 5 people but you want to comment on fights of 30+/50+?

> > >

> > > Are you saying I am wrong about the lack of meaningful personal contribution, because that's simple math?

> > 100% yes. a well placed bomb by 1 person can tip the scales and drop 5 people, which allows your team to rally. Same goes for a well placed CC bomb by 1 person, or 1 person with a banner, or 1 bubble at just the right time.

>

> No. Just no. Unless large portions of the squad is more or less afk, a single player playing a bit better or worse have any meaningful impact.

 

youtube is filled with examples of one player having a large impact on zerg fights

> > > Am I wrong about the terrible delay/delay caused by zergs, because I can easily notice that even when avoiding them.

> > You're right on about the lag, it's a huge problem. How does that apply to your lack of knowledge about the most popular way the game mode is played?

>

> So in any fight where there is massive lag/delay what I do matters very little. Every zerg fights have massive delay as they're the cause of it, therefore in every zerg fight one's actions matters very little.

That depends, if the one thing you do is immobilize/fear 20 people, then yeah that'll have a big impact. Anything that is usually cleansed instantly becomes more difficult if not impossible to cleanse with 10s lag spikes, so the value of using these skills increases. Frequently in a lag spike the condition doesn't wear off when the timer says it should, so you could end up running in the opposite direction of your group from one fear for 10s straight. Same for a bubble in a lag spike, those boons aren't getting reapplied because no one can cast anything.

> > > Am I wrong about the fact that AoE caps are a 80%+ passive damage reduction mechanic? Because once again simple math.

> > I'm not sure where you're going with this, seems like it's out of left field.

>

> Well they're what causes scourge to be overpowered and ranger to be underpowered on largescale so feels relevant.

Scourge is overpowered in large scale because its' aoes aren't projectiles and each of them pulses damage out that zones enemy groups. Ranger is plenty accepted in zerg fights, if they're running the correct build. There's a thread about it with videos in the wvw section right now, maybe check that out?

> > > Also I am simply offering my perspective. Whether it's applicable to a majority is kinda hard to say, never claimed to speak for one.

> > You're trying to generalize your knowledge of small scale (<10 participants) to large scale (>50 participants) which doesn't make any sense.

>

> It's not something where one really needs a lot of experience to be knowledgeable.

>

> Especially if one already has extensive experience with more complicated situations using the same mechanics.

It's not the same mechanics, and from your responses here it's pretty clear that you lack the experience and knowledge about large scale combat. Which is exactly what i've been trying to tell you, 5v5 isn't something you can generalize to 50v50.

> > > But players who aren't in massive blobs a majority of the time are definitively a significant amount. Then again I obviously don't speak for anyone but myself.

> > Maybe in the off hours of whatever server you play on. If your main focus in the game is small scale combat, why wouldn't you play pvp instead?

>

> Well if you were to add up every player who isn't in the blobs and compare them to the amount who are at any given time, assuming blob starts at, say 16 players.

>

> Then I think the people in blobs would still have a majority, but definitively not by a big margin, but really this is just guesswork, only anet can really answer what group is in a majority and by what margin (that is if they even track it).

>

> Cause sPvP isn't about fighting, has terrible balance, forces symmetric fights and is overall garbage.

>

> On a similar note, if you just wanna follow a tag and 1111, why wouldn't you just do open would PvE?

See above.

> > These aren't changes that will have a meaningful impact on small scale fights, but they will have a very detrimental effect on large scale fights. Which is why no one's complaining about scourge for small scale, which is why the entire conversation is about large scale- an area you have no experience in.

>

> Every now and then we run with a support scourge as a secondary healer, this will make that build much better and we will probably use it more often. Scourge as a support now has a bit better chance to compete with FB.

> See meaningful impact right there.

>

> Thought you didn't like people talking about subjects they lack experience with.

Scourge doesn't come close to filling the same role FB does, wut? It has almost no boon output at all, that's what a fb is for @.@

 

[lodjur.1284]

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > How applicable do you think your experience is to the majority of wvw players? You said the biggest groups you've played in are 5 people but you want to comment on fights of 30+/50+?

> > > >

> > > > Are you saying I am wrong about the lack of meaningful personal contribution, because that's simple math?

> > > 100% yes. a well placed bomb by 1 person can tip the scales and drop 5 people, which allows your team to rally. Same goes for a well placed CC bomb by 1 person, or 1 person with a banner, or 1 bubble at just the right time.

> >

> > No. Just no. Unless large portions of the squad is more or less afk, a single player playing a bit better or worse have any meaningful impact.

>

>

> youtube is filled with examples of one player having a large impact on zerg fights

 

Hard disagree.

 

It becomes slightly more possible, with siege/banners I suppose (partially due to their massively increased AoE caps, partially because they're just overpowered) (even if the impact is still relatively low), but they're not exactly relevant to a discussion about class balance (though supposedly they are also getting nerfed, thankfully).

 

> > > > Am I wrong about the terrible delay/delay caused by zergs, because I can easily notice that even when avoiding them.

> > > You're right on about the lag, it's a huge problem. How does that apply to your lack of knowledge about the most popular way the game mode is played?

> >

> > So in any fight where there is massive lag/delay what I do matters very little. Every zerg fights have massive delay as they're the cause of it, therefore in every zerg fight one's actions matters very little.

> That depends, if the one thing you do is immobilize/fear 20 people, then yeah that'll have a big impact. Anything that is usually cleansed instantly becomes more difficult if not impossible to cleanse with 10s lag spikes, so the value of using these skills increases. Frequently in a lag spike the condition doesn't wear off when the timer says it should, so you could end up running in the opposite direction of your group from one fear for 10s straight. Same for a bubble in a lag spike, those boons aren't getting reapplied because no one can cast anything.

 

Well one can't really control lag. If one could, you would have a point (and we would finally have a mechanic more annoying than immob)

 

> > > > Am I wrong about the fact that AoE caps are a 80%+ passive damage reduction mechanic? Because once again simple math.

> > > I'm not sure where you're going with this, seems like it's out of left field.

> >

> > Well they're what causes scourge to be overpowered and ranger to be underpowered on largescale so feels relevant.

> Scourge is overpowered in large scale because its' aoes aren't projectiles and each of them pulses damage out that zones enemy groups. Ranger is plenty accepted in zerg fights, if they're running the correct build. There's a thread about it with videos in the wvw section right now, maybe check that out?

 

I am aware that ranger has some viable zerging options now. It is just the traditional "bad in zergs" class that people like bringing up, feel free to change the word ranger out for whatever class you feel is currently most useless for zerging.

 

Scourge is strong because enemies don't move out of your fields and because all your skills are dmg+support at the same time.

 

The only way to really balance scourge is to discourage stacking. Scourge is only overpowered because of AoE caps.

 

> > > > Also I am simply offering my perspective. Whether it's applicable to a majority is kinda hard to say, never claimed to speak for one.

> > > You're trying to generalize your knowledge of small scale (<10 participants) to large scale (>50 participants) which doesn't make any sense.

> >

> > It's not something where one really needs a lot of experience to be knowledgeable.

> >

> > Especially if one already has extensive experience with more complicated situations using the same mechanics.

> It's not the same mechanics, and from your responses here it's pretty clear that you lack the experience and knowledge about large scale combat. Which is exactly what i've been trying to tell you, 5v5 isn't something you can generalize to 50v50.

 

It definitively has the same mechanics as they're played in the same gamemode. Balance doesn't magically change cause your groupsize does.

 

> > > > But players who aren't in massive blobs a majority of the time are definitively a significant amount. Then again I obviously don't speak for anyone but myself.

> > > Maybe in the off hours of whatever server you play on. If your main focus in the game is small scale combat, why wouldn't you play pvp instead?

> >

> > Well if you were to add up every player who isn't in the blobs and compare them to the amount who are at any given time, assuming blob starts at, say 16 players.

> >

> > Then I think the people in blobs would still have a majority, but definitively not by a big margin, but really this is just guesswork, only anet can really answer what group is in a majority and by what margin (that is if they even track it).

> >

> > Cause sPvP isn't about fighting, has terrible balance, forces symmetric fights and is overall garbage.

> >

> > On a similar note, if you just wanna follow a tag and 1111, why wouldn't you just do open would PvE?

> See above.

> > > These aren't changes that will have a meaningful impact on small scale fights, but they will have a very detrimental effect on large scale fights. Which is why no one's complaining about scourge for small scale, which is why the entire conversation is about large scale- an area you have no experience in.

> >

> > Every now and then we run with a support scourge as a secondary healer, this will make that build much better and we will probably use it more often. Scourge as a support now has a bit better chance to compete with FB.

> > See meaningful impact right there.

> >

> > Thought you didn't like people talking about subjects they lack experience with.

> Scourge doesn't come close to filling the same role FB does, wut? It has almost no boon output at all, that's what a fb is for @.@

>

 

Well obviously changing some other stuff to make up for the loss of stability.

 

The point is, this change has meaningful impact. I figured the exact details of how exactly our comp changes when we have one wasn't as relevant as the fact that we use one as secondary support (which is the same thing we use FB for, even if their utility is vastly different).

[solemn.9670]

this says it all

https://clips.twitch.tv/ObliqueSavageTubersPanicBasket

[Redponey.8352]

despite they said that they read without comment the forum, threads and player feedback. It seen they didnt take care about WvW feedback about WvW meta and balance issue in WvW.

[RisenHowl.2419]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> It definitively has the same mechanics as they're played in the same gamemode. Balance doesn't magically change cause your groupsize does.

 

 

This is a pointless argument until you gain experience in large scale combat. This is where the knowledge gap is =/

[lodjur.1284]

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > It definitively has the same mechanics as they're played in the same gamemode. Balance doesn't magically change cause your groupsize does.

>

>

> This is a pointless argument until you gain experience in large scale combat. This is where the knowledge gap is =/

 

You're the one trying to say skills work differently. Which is just blatantly incorrect. The skills most definitively do the exact same things no matter how many people are in your group. Anything else is just a lie.

 

But you're right this is pointless.

 

You seem to ideally want anything below 20 man blobs to stop existing and want them to ideally avoid any positive changes to those situations.

 

I think balance stops mattering around the time sheer number of players gives everyone 3 sec delay and 5 fps. I also think there's little to no player agency (ie that skill doesn't really matter, at least beyond that the skill ceiling is absurdly low)

 

Can't really reconcile those differences.

 

Anyway enjoy the patch I know I will.

[Shiyo.3578]

I don't understand how you can release a balance patch that doesn't fix anything while adding more unfun things to fight. That's a next level accomplishment tbh.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > What gets me is they don't know what builds are popularly abused. Immobeast has been up on metabattle for months. Stepping foot into wvw during prime time just for a night would be enough to learn it's broken @.@

>

> Here I do agree with you fully.

>

> Immob ranger (both SB and druid tbh) not even being, known about, is baffling.

>

> Also saying the destroyable roots aren't a problem is the words of someone whose never tried actually destroying them.

>

> During the stream they even get immob-spammed twice by a druid, moments after talking about it.

 

Druid does not need any buffs to immobilize. I don't understand why it's being buffed. Entangle/root need to be completely removed from the game and changed into normal immobilize, they are buggy and do not function. Fighting a druid as a melee is so non-interactive and unfun, the only thing less fun is a perma stealth rifle deadeye. No idea why you'd want to buff things that are ZERO fun to fight?

[lodjur.1284]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > What gets me is they don't know what builds are popularly abused. Immobeast has been up on metabattle for months. Stepping foot into wvw during prime time just for a night would be enough to learn it's broken @.@

> >

> > Here I do agree with you fully.

> >

> > Immob ranger (both SB and druid tbh) not even being, known about, is baffling.

> >

> > Also saying the destroyable roots aren't a problem is the words of someone whose never tried actually destroying them.

> >

> > During the stream they even get immob-spammed twice by a druid, moments after talking about it.

>

> Druid does not need any buffs to immobilize. I don't understand why it's being buffed. Entangle/root need to be completely removed from the game and changed into normal immobilize, they are buggy and do not function. Fighting a druid as a melee is so non-interactive and unfun, the only thing less fun is a perma stealth rifle deadeye. No idea why you'd want to buff things that are ZERO fun to fight?

 

I agree, however one should note that the buff to immobilize, is extremely minor and only to 1 skill on staff. In terms of gameplay I doub't one will even notice the difference.

 

 

[BelchyMcFartFace.1240]

I just want to know when teef is going to be nerfed down to one button that makes it run across the entire map, Swing a weapon and then is instantly impaled by a finisher and teleports back to rez point and repeats. I mean thats what pretty much what happens now but 10 skills is too many. Just put a single “lose” button in. C’mon Anet. Lets’s do this!

 

[Prisms.6012]

And here i am just waiting them to fix the OCX/SEA lag

 

[Faenar.8036]

Actually I do not want to be in ArenaNet's situation at this moment. From their own perspective, it must be something like this:

 

PvE legions: ANet, you actually look at Raids at least once per year? buff necro.

WvW legions: ANet, did you actually entered this game mode at least once? Nerf necro.

Unspecified legions: Why the hell the very same skills works differently and have different numbers in different mapzones? ANet, unify this.

ArenaNet: Ok ok, thank you kindly for your ... ehm ... "consistent" suggestions.

,,,,,,,,,, balance patch released ,,,,,,,,,,,,

PvE legions: What you have done?!?! not enough

WvW legions: What you have done?!?! not enough

Unspecified legions: What you have done ?!?! Even MORE differences ???

ArenaNet: Seems at least consistent now ... Not gonna response to this anyway. Omg, hurr durr spammers each day everyday.

 

Rinse and repeat for each profession.

 

At least almost all of us are consistent in these lately lag lag lag lag lag, I mean lag situations.

[Redponey.8352]

Apparently it wont show up but its actually the current state of PvP/WvW gamemode.

 

(meme image)


 

 

 

[knuthertig.2438]

I'm impressed by anet - they manage to make the meta as boring as possible.

 

Got bit nervous last big patch that they actually learned something and released a decent balance update.

Guess we back to it being trash again.

 

Please buff sic em and scourge a bit more next patch