primatos.5413 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 They have to built up for the new op stuff aka expansion.. let´s wait and see how things work out in the end. Just trust them!! Or in other words.. i think they completely lost touch and visons for wvw :anguished: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeran.6850 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"Jeran.6850" said: > > sadly, you will not get any help. i have already seen necro players posts how all this is a nerf.... > Not a single necro player says this brought back scourge AOE idiocy is a nerf. You should really start to look what people actually say. You are right, i apologize. I heavily cross-read the forums subsections that evening (was like 9:30 pm here in germany when i posted, after a long working day). But i was, and still am literally "out of my mind" about what arenenat will bring over us, for large scale wvw. And yes, even while the vast majority of necro mains agrees how these changes severely will hurt large-scale wvw, there are other necro mains cheering (well, that was to be expected), while others plain out say "l2p", just with more words used, as the answer to how to beat a 30 Scourges/20 Firebrands comp. While the answer is obvious: bring the same comp (or outnumbering heavily, as always). The two scappers and (maybe) veil/portal- bot mesmers will not change, what we will see, when this changes go live...the two most asked for classes will get even more asked for. You people may believe me, or not: i always wanted each class to be viable in large-scale wvw, or in smallscale or roaming (but fulfill an individual "niche"...its not that in know the "how to" in any way btw). In my (very small) wvw-guild, im known to heavily defend rangers against stereotype accusations for example - while beeing an elementalist main. After February, we slowly have seen an improvement in class diversity, of course partly because shrinking numbers of players available. There they are, the burn-dh, immo-druids and core-rangers, some chronos/core mesmers, lightning rod eles, spellbeakers which did see a higher "viability" ever since the very start of pof: this now will be all gone (again), and its a crying shame. These changes to scourges... just why. It doesnt get into my head. Even at the risk of sounding silly for repeating myself: please keep in mind, that english isnt a language im am used to wright in. I will sometimes sound harsh, or kind of "snobby", but most of the time, that isnt intended. Its me lacking words and phrases to expess whats going on in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > 100% chance we'll see a return of the red ring of death trains, where ~75% necro trains just run straight forward while you cant get anywhere close in melee. It was basicly what killed decent zerg fights since it was impossible to counter once the train get rolling, you cant push with melee into it because you instantly die. > > > > > > Then add some pretty big buffs to wells on top and no zerg will ever want to engage each other in melee. > > > > > > Then add the possibility that blood bank is AoE, meaning entire zergs will have permanent 10k+ barriers (unless it has a very low cap). > > > > > > # Pirate shipping is back in action baby > > > > I really doubt DPS scourges are going to go Blood Magic just for that trait. Also if you want to run support, then the trait competes with Transfusion and kind of defeats the purpose of having a support Scourge in the first place. So it might have a big effect on roaming and small scale, but I really don't think it's going to be zerg meta. > It has nothing to do with support and bloodbank does not compete with transfusion. They will go blood even when dps - having wells traited will be a huge bonus as well. The thing is, we dont know how bloodbank works. If it works like vampiric rituals which is an AoE buff to allies, **then oh boy**. Let me just make it clear what it means: > > # All overhealing in the zerg will become barrier on anyone with the buff and each necro give it to 5 people. > > If you cant see how **insane** thats gonna be for already overwhelming zergs I dont know what to say. You wont even be able to damage zergs anymore as anything less than an even bigger zerg. We already saw something similar on PoF release when scourges ran barrier traits and vomitted them everywhere. > > Maybe Anet thought about it and added limitations, maybe they didnt. Maybe its for the necro only and not AoE. Going by shade change they dont seem to have thought about WvW at all. > You are just making a huge assumption that this buff will be applied to an entire party with no evidence at all to show that will be the case. If it does work that way, sure I can see it being meta, but I highly doubt it will work that way. Do you automatically assume every new trait or skill is a party buff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 They're starting the arms race again with one class, overhealing shields vs shades! Hey anet maybe next time look at buffing other weaker classes aoes/corruption instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > @"SWI.4127" said: > Do you automatically assume every new trait or skill is a party buff? When they replace a party buff, yes. Especially when it's also moved up a tier and described as "more broadly functioning". I missed that originally - and also missed that the well trait is deleted so no further cd reduction or protection so at least that's not as horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 > Blood Bank: This new trait replaces Vampiric Rituals in the Blood Magic grandmaster slot. It causes healing over your maximum health amount to be converted into barrier. Regeneration effects do not trigger this trait. pretty sure this only applies to the necro or else they wouldn't have used the word your. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > Do you automatically assume every new trait or skill is a party buff? > When they replace a party buff, yes. Especially when it's also moved up a tier and described as "more broadly functioning". I missed that originally - and also missed that the well trait is deleted so no further cd reduction or protection so at least that's not as horrible. > They replaced a party buff so the new trait must also be a party buff? What kind of logic is that? If it is a party buff, then yes it would be OP as hell and your huge-text all-caps posts would be warranted. Seems like you're freaking out over a huge assumption you're making though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kylden Ar.3724 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > 100% chance we'll see a return of the red ring of death trains, where ~75% necro trains just run straight forward while you cant get anywhere close in melee. It was basicly what killed decent zerg fights since it was impossible to counter once the train get rolling, you cant push with melee into it because you instantly die. > > Then add some pretty big buffs to wells on top and no zerg will ever want to engage each other in melee. > > Then add the possibility that blood bank is AoE, meaning entire zergs will have permanent 10k+ barriers (unless it has a very low cap). > > # Pirate shipping is back in action baby # WvW to be Renamed "The Floor is Lava Mode" Nothing says zerg skill like run forward and mash F1 to F4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"SWI.4127" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > Do you automatically assume every new trait or skill is a party buff? > > When they replace a party buff, yes. Especially when it's also moved up a tier and described as "more broadly functioning". I missed that originally - and also missed that the well trait is deleted so no further cd reduction or protection so at least that's not as horrible. > > > > They replaced a party buff so the new trait must also be a party buff? What kind of logic is that? > > If it is a party buff, then yes it would be OP as hell and your huge-text all-caps posts would be warranted. Seems like you're freaking out over a huge assumption you're making though. None of my posts are in all caps, thats a forum feature. Just quote the post and look at it. And if you think thats "freaking out" you've clearly never seen someone freak out. I'm not even using exclamation marks. Seems like you're just making huge assumption about posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider.7849 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"Jeran.6850" said: > sadly, you will not get any help. i have already seen necro players posts how all this is a nerf.... > but however. > wvw will be firebrands and scourges again, like it was for years after pof. the necros mains will not ever see a problem, because pve and open world reasons... no way you see certain necro mains posting regulary in this forum, how Arenanet did it wrong again in this case. Nimon? Where are you? All justified, because other classes have higher damadge numbers fighting a golem... I'm not a necro main, nor do I even have a necro.. but I'm all for them being able to get their AoE's back on the caster as well. It was a bad change to begin with as necro only has shroud to defend itself when focused, desert shroud is just a few seconds of barrier. If a necro dropped it's shade (with the larger sized shade) it lost its ability to defend itself and would be forced to fight around the area they placed it. Reverting this change will allow them to attack and be able to defend themselves when focused namely in small scale. In larger scale having necros allows for smaller teams to stand a chance against larger groups of massive barriers, boons, and constant condi cleanse. Overall I believe this gives them more independence in playing the game, and I'm sure it's a more than welcome change to one of the largest populations of players in this game who main the class. You people trying to kill every class that isn't your preferred profession is why this game is/was going downhill. It's not as fun as it used to be combat wise. The dwindling build diversity is a direct result of this online forum community. They've improved chronomancer a bit and I hope they make mirage fun again for the Mesmer mains as well in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"Strider.7849" said: > It was a bad change to begin with It was a bad change because it made WvW fun again after being slowly strangled to death by the pirateship meta? Look nobody care about the shade in itself. It was the **overall effect** it had on WvW that was horrendous. Did you forget that we literally could not walk anywhere near enemy zergs without dying? Carpet trains of death covering the zerg so much you barely even saw players through all the red? Removing it was so much better for everyone and scourge is *still* the primary AoE zerg meta. And even then build diversity has improved by quite a bit. At least with the boonball meta we can still get close and try to harass the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider.7849 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Strider.7849" said: > > It was a bad change to begin with > It was a bad change because it made WvW fun again after being slowly strangled to death by the pirateship meta? > > Look nobody care about the shade in itself. It was the **overall effect** it had on WvW that was horrendous. Did you forget that we literally could not walk anywhere near enemy zergs without dying? Carpet trains of death covering the zerg so much you barely even saw players through all the red? Removing it was so much better for everyone and scourge is *still* the primary AoE zerg meta. And even then build diversity has improved by quite a bit. > > At least with the boonball meta we can still get close and try to harass the rear. Everyone's experience is different. I didn't have situations personally where I felt I couldn't push into a zerg if the people I played with were equipped to do so. I remember you, yourself mentioning pre-major balance change back in January to all classes, that we don't know how it will play out with damage across the board being nerfed and that people were overreacting. During the time when scourges had the skills affect themselves as well as on the shade, what was the dominant builds used for zerging? Berserker, grieving, and celestial. Chances are it could be very well work out the same way but we don't know yet. All I'm saying is that necros needed this function on scourge in order to function more independently. There are ways they can fix this with cooldown duration on shade placement and the visuals. I know you're not a roamer or are experienced in winning outnumbered fighting so our views are going to be very different on this, since you're primarily looking at it from the meta, massive zerg composition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"Strider.7849" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Strider.7849" said: > > > It was a bad change to begin with > > It was a bad change because it made WvW fun again after being slowly strangled to death by the pirateship meta? > > > > Look nobody care about the shade in itself. It was the **overall effect** it had on WvW that was horrendous. Did you forget that we literally could not walk anywhere near enemy zergs without dying? Carpet trains of death covering the zerg so much you barely even saw players through all the red? Removing it was so much better for everyone and scourge is *still* the primary AoE zerg meta. And even then build diversity has improved by quite a bit. > > > > At least with the boonball meta we can still get close and try to harass the rear. > > Everyone's experience is different. I didn't have situations personally where I felt I couldn't push into a zerg if the people I played with were equipped to do so. > > I remember you, yourself mentioning pre-major balance change back in January to all classes, that we don't know how it will play out with damage across the board being nerfed and that people were overreacting. During the time when scourges had the skills affect themselves as well as on the shade, what was the dominant builds used for zerging? Berserker, grieving, and celestial. Chances are it could be very well work out the same way but we don't know yet. All I'm saying is that necros needed this function on scourge in order to function more independently. There are ways they can fix this with cooldown duration on shade placement and the visuals. > > I know you're not a roamer or are experienced in winning outnumbered fighting so our views are going to be very different on this, since you're primarily looking at it from the meta, massive zerg composition. The january patch was quite different as it suppressed power damage on all classes. Not much in terms of class strength seem to change this patch. We already had the shade change then and knew the effect (was changed october) of having it vs not having it. We never need that again. But it wouldnt surprise if Anet wrecks completely havoc on WvW now for maybe 8 months, then they release a new expansion with *vastly* superior elites that make everyone stop playing scourge and then they nerf the shade 1 week after the expansion release. Because Deathly Chill is another example of something we never need again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > Do you automatically assume every new trait or skill is a party buff? > > > When they replace a party buff, yes. Especially when it's also moved up a tier and described as "more broadly functioning". I missed that originally - and also missed that the well trait is deleted so no further cd reduction or protection so at least that's not as horrible. > > > > > > > They replaced a party buff so the new trait must also be a party buff? What kind of logic is that? > > > > If it is a party buff, then yes it would be OP as hell and your huge-text all-caps posts would be warranted. Seems like you're freaking out over a huge assumption you're making though. > None of my posts are in all caps, thats a forum feature. Just quote the post and look at it. And if you think thats "freaking out" you've clearly never seen someone freak out. I'm not even using exclamation marks. Seems like you're just making huge assumption about posts. > Lol, really man? Maybe you didn't type it in all caps, but you used a forum feature to display it bolded, with huge font, and in all caps. People usually write like that when they really want to emphasize something important. So that's why I got the impression you're making a really big deal about this trait when you don't even really know how it works. If you don't want to seem like you're making a big deal about it, then maybe stop typing it in huge bold letters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"SWI.4127" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > Do you automatically assume every new trait or skill is a party buff? > > > > When they replace a party buff, yes. Especially when it's also moved up a tier and described as "more broadly functioning". I missed that originally - and also missed that the well trait is deleted so no further cd reduction or protection so at least that's not as horrible. > > > > > > > > > > They replaced a party buff so the new trait must also be a party buff? What kind of logic is that? > > > > > > If it is a party buff, then yes it would be OP as hell and your huge-text all-caps posts would be warranted. Seems like you're freaking out over a huge assumption you're making though. > > None of my posts are in all caps, thats a forum feature. Just quote the post and look at it. And if you think thats "freaking out" you've clearly never seen someone freak out. I'm not even using exclamation marks. Seems like you're just making huge assumption about posts. > > > > Lol, really man? Maybe you didn't type it in all caps, but you used a forum feature to display it bolded, with huge font, and in all caps. People usually write like that when they really want to emphasize something important. So that's why I got the impression you're making a really big deal about this trait when you don't even really know how it works. If you don't want to seem like you're making a big deal about it, then maybe stop typing it in huge bold letters. # No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWI.4127 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > > @"SWI.4127" said: > > > > > > Do you automatically assume every new trait or skill is a party buff? > > > > > When they replace a party buff, yes. Especially when it's also moved up a tier and described as "more broadly functioning". I missed that originally - and also missed that the well trait is deleted so no further cd reduction or protection so at least that's not as horrible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > They replaced a party buff so the new trait must also be a party buff? What kind of logic is that? > > > > > > > > If it is a party buff, then yes it would be OP as hell and your huge-text all-caps posts would be warranted. Seems like you're freaking out over a huge assumption you're making though. > > > None of my posts are in all caps, thats a forum feature. Just quote the post and look at it. And if you think thats "freaking out" you've clearly never seen someone freak out. I'm not even using exclamation marks. Seems like you're just making huge assumption about posts. > > > > > > > Lol, really man? Maybe you didn't type it in all caps, but you used a forum feature to display it bolded, with huge font, and in all caps. People usually write like that when they really want to emphasize something important. So that's why I got the impression you're making a really big deal about this trait when you don't even really know how it works. If you don't want to seem like you're making a big deal about it, then maybe stop typing it in huge bold letters. > # No. > # whoa please don't freak out at me. I am really calm and collected by the way, as this huge, bolded, all-caps text conveys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeran.6850 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"Strider.7849" said: mo I'm not a necro main, nor do I even have a necro.. but I'm all for them being able to get their AoE's back on the caster as well. It was a bad change to begin with as necro only has shroud to defend itself when focused, desert shroud is just a few seconds of barrier. If a necro dropped it's shade (with the larger sized shade) it lost its ability to defend itself and would be forced to fight around the area they placed it. Reverting this change will allow them to attack and be able to defend themselves when focused namely in small scale. In larger scale having necros allows for smaller teams to stand a chance against larger groups of massive barriers, boons, and constant condi cleanse. Overall I believe this gives them more independence in playing the game, and I'm sure it's a more than welcome change to one of the largest populations of players in this game who main the class. You people trying to kill every class that isn't your preferred profession is why this game is/was going downhill. It's not as fun as it used to be combat wise. The dwindling build diversity is a direct result of this online forum community. They've improved chronomancer a bit and I hope they make mirage fun again for the Mesmer mains as well in the future. Hello there, i needed quite some time to decide if its worth the time to reply, but here i am. First of all, i appreciate Arenanets invitation to discuss the upcomming balance changes. If they really listen, or if its just a gentle phrase, we will see. But in no way, i think of me as someone, who´s opinions matter the most. So, i appreciate (wow...that world is difficult even the second time - thank you google) your point of view...but. And its a big one: wasnt it very clear and obvious, that the concerns of many people (not just me) are with large-scale wvw in mind? I dont get why you talk about small-scale, and why you make up a very artificial distinction in the case of Scourge in large-scale combat while outnumbered? You even mention barrier as a problem for the Scourge by yourself, if the opposing team have higher numbers (with more Scourges very likely , and therefore, more barrier), in your own example. So, whats your point? I really will not go to much into your comment about how the self-shades give them more independence: but wvw is, mostly, a game mode about group play. Small-scale is the best example of what a good class composition can achive (by softening your classes shortcomings, stengthening your class in the most possible way... but small-scale is for sure not about classes beeing "indepenant". The outliers that do exist (thiefs came into my mind the moment i am typing) should not change, that, in an mmo-pvp-likewise gamemode, its group (player) interactions that makes a difference and should be a goal, not class "indepency". Well.. i have tried to explain my point of view the best i can if its about small-scale... but my concerns, again, are pointed at large scale. The reason i actually decided to reply, is you qouting me, then saying "you people trying to kill every class that isn´t your preferred profession". What do you think: what class did i play for several month since the start of pof? What class did i play through all hot in large-scale , when i not have been online with my (boring healbot) tempest? People in the this forums are quite used to call someone "bias", and they do it conveniently by knowing, that a small part of "biasness" is within eveyone. We are humans, there are things we like, and things we dislike. Not a single thing i have posted in this thread is releated to me wanting my elementalist to be... what ever? No, what ever you think my intend was, other than to contribute to a conversation about the necro class balancing for large-scale wvw - you are surely wrong. My personal dream is a wvw (large-scale) enviroment, where ALL classes are viable somehow, but for sure i do not want to see 50 people squads back with 30 of them are scourges, pressing buttons randomly...sounds bias? I have been there, done that, as a Scourge myself. I dont want that to come back, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeran.6850 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 Sorry, the quoting doesnt work out as i thought it will... :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 > @"Strider.7849" said: > I'm not a necro main, nor do I even have a necro.. but I'm all for them being able to get their AoE's back on the caster as well. It was a bad change to begin with as necro only has shroud to defend itself when focused, desert shroud is just a few seconds of barrier. If a necro dropped it's shade (with the larger sized shade) it lost its ability to defend itself and would be forced to fight around the area they placed it. > > Reverting this change will allow them to attack and be able to defend themselves when focused namely in small scale. In larger scale having necros allows for smaller teams to stand a chance against larger groups of massive barriers, boons, and constant condi cleanse. Overall I believe this gives them more independence in playing the game, and I'm sure it's a more than welcome change to one of the largest populations of players in this game who main the class. > > You people trying to kill every class that isn't your preferred profession is why this game is/was going downhill. It's not as fun as it used to be combat wise. The dwindling build diversity is a direct result of this online forum community. They've improved chronomancer a bit and I hope they make mirage fun again for the Mesmer mains as well in the future. Huh, funny. I guess mesmer is the only class that needs to do trade offs for their elite specs huh, mirage attacking and defending at the same time is a big no no, but ok for scourge. Then chrono gets their self shatter back at the cost of nerfing their shatter skills and losing distortion. But hey lets make the biggest population of the players happy right, and not do what's right for the overall health and fun of wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diku.2546 Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 For every thread that begs devs to nerf a profession due to it being "overpowered". Make the devs (neutral 3rd party) realize their mistake by showing them how many people abuse the "overpowered-ness" of the profession that you're complaining about. Ask yourself...for all that you've invested...Why is it fair for somebody else's profession to be nerfed (they've invested too)...while your profession isn't nerfed? Wait a second...So this is a discussion to talk about a profession that's going to be more overpowered. Sorry for jumping the gun. Deja vu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeran.6850 Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 "30 of them are scourges, pressing buttons randomly" i said, well thats not true. (Guardian) Commander: " You play with wells? Good. Hope you use that scourge heal skill, whatever it is called. Now, you know you have F-skills? Excellent. You do the following: as fast as you can, throw your wells, press F1, F2,F3, F5 and that heal skill. If the most of you do that at the same time, the enemies should be dead afterwards i think..." *** Scourges: "What do we do when they are not dead?" (Guard) Comm *slightly annoyed*: "Just smash buttons, we´ll be fine." Couldn´t resist ;) ***this part is not fictional, it really happened... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caedmon.6798 Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 > @"Jeran.6850" said: > "30 of them are scourges, pressing buttons randomly" i said, well thats not true. > > > (Guardian) Commander: " You play with wells? Good. Hope you use that scourge heal skill, whatever it is called. Now, you know you have F-skills? Excellent. > You do the following: as fast as you can, throw your wells, press F1, F2,F3, F5 and that heal skill. If the most of you do that at the same time, the enemies should be dead afterwards i think..." *** > > Scourges: "What do we do when they are not dead?" > > (Guard) Comm *slightly annoyed*: "Just smash buttons, we´ll be fine." > > > Couldn´t resist ;) > > ***this part is not fictional, it really happened... Firebrands: And what do we do commander ? Commander: SMASH ALL THE BUTTONS ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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