So, the change to mount stomp seems reasonable..

[Celsith.2753]

> @"Kunzaito.8169" said:

> No one said favor. I said give an avenue to victory. A comped organized group with a commander and food and all that has plenty of advantages. Not least of which is that in the current meta it's nearly impossible to full down someone in an attacking ball using just siege and player damage. The available synergies between sustain and damage classes (read: FB/scrapper/scourge/rev) make it easy to stay healed, revive the downs, and still do tremendous damage.

>

> Look, ultimately, since this is a game, it's about creating fun gameplay that encourages people to play, right? We don't need to concern ourselves much with what realistically "should" happen in a situation. **Personally, I think it's bad for the game to make it futile to log in to wvw unless there's a commander running**. If you can't hope to hold anything against an organized blob, people will log off unless their celebmander is on running a ktrain. We can all see that the game has trended further and further in that direction over the years. I personally don't find it fun to just mindlessly cap things against helpless opposition. Nor to watch helplessly while an opposing blob just takes anything they want. I guess I am in the minority given how popular blobbing is but I think WvW loses a lot more players by making the barriers to entry so high and by making it completely unfun and unrewarding to play if you're not on the blob side.

>

 

Bolded the part that I really want to emphasize. It's simply not possible to make a coordinated compd up on voip equal number group to magically appear and fight the enemy every time they have likewise. It's going to be random pugs trying with what tools they have. I spend lots of time supply trapping, counter sieging, trying to make other players understand that destroying supply and siege does more to protect something than trying to take on a blob when you have the outmanned buff. But when you DO have to fight, you are facing an uphill battle of killing yourself with retaliation, doing next to no damage because everyone has full barrier and protection and seeing any one that you do manage to focus down just getting instantly rezzed with full hp. Risking a mount stomp could and did whittle down a blob sometimes to a point where they left. And when it didn't turn the tide, at least the defenders got a sense that it wasn't completely futile and they stood a chance.

 

Your enemy needs to feel like it's worth logging in. At this point, it isn't.

[Cyninja.2954]

Sorry but the usual occurrence in outnumbered scenarios was:

Far bigger zerg steam rolled you. The far back line catching up to the front, or just some players who didn't cast into the first spike remained mounted, then proceeded to mount stomp each and every down immediately. People who pretend as though big blobs did not mount stomp are simply delusional or were the ones relying on mount stomping smaller groups.

 

Or in case of roaming with multiple players, each and every random coming by on a mount stomped which ever side went down first.

 

It was of even greater concern when fighting as organized smaller group against a less organized bigger group (say 20v40+ as guild group versus not yet full zone public) because it took all ability to manage downed players. The usual engage here was:

- guild group engages the bigger group thanks to better coordination and/or stealth

- guild group proceeds to get downstates in the magnitude of around groupsize/2

- public (large group) now reacts to guild group which now has to kite since damage is on cd

- public (larger group) can simply pressure the guild group away due to sheer size and risk to guild group of instantly losing players to stomps

 

The mount stomp is just like every other tool in the game which scales with number of players, benefited the larger force consistently. The only times this turned was during fluke scenarios like respawn running, picking off stragglers or continually withering down a larger force tramped in an objective.

[Faenar.8036]

Imho, Warclaw stomping was a cheesy and retard-level singleplayer ability. No strategy, no tactic, just stomp -> enemy dead -> cya later at next fight. I think WvW is almost back at the situation before mounts were introduced into WvW. At this moment, Warclaw is still "sorta-kinda" usable as CC-immune way of traveling (and still slightly faster than player with Swiftness), and the Sniff ability is basically Target Painter Trap without the supply cost, which can alert other ppl about enemies zerging some objectives.

 

Yeah, you can call me one of those "dangerous" "WvW supremacists" (in one of my guild groups, we immediatelly started using these words since that journalist article, its already a meme for us xD ), but personally, I consider this change as one of the (few) good parts in this balance patch.

 

Well done ArenaNet, this change is another minor step to the WvW status where players would actually need to think about TEAMWORK, strategy and tactical play again.

[LetoII.3782]

The larger group commands the area it stands in, even more so now with scourge's pbaoe reattached to it's ankles. The warclaw might've been an easy scapegoat but you weren't getting back on your feet anyway after a group wipe.

[Sovereign.1093]

Jul 7 rip the second reason why we ought to have warclaw. Now it's only good reason is to help others run faster.

[nthmetal.9652]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> Jul 7 rip the second reason why we ought to have warclaw. Now it's only good reason is to help others run faster.

 

And even that has pretty much been gutted by previous nerfs. I wish we could find a proper role for the warclaw in WvW. Especially now that numbers matter more than ever before, its mobility could be increased again, but I don't really expect anything like that to happen. I really wish changes done could be reviewed once more in terms of their greater context, and checked against that.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"nthmetal.9652" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > Jul 7 rip the second reason why we ought to have warclaw. Now it's only good reason is to help others run faster.

>

> And even that has pretty much been gutted by previous nerfs. I wish we could find a proper role for the warclaw in WvW. Especially now that numbers matter more than ever before, its mobility could be increased again, but I don't really expect anything like that to happen. I really wish changes done could be reviewed once more in terms of their greater context, and checked against that.

 

It should simply be that, a mount that helps players move faster. I just got cuddled by warclaw stomp especially since acs were gutted. It's a step in the right direction agianst siege

[nthmetal.9652]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> It should simply be that, a mount that helps players move faster. I just got cuddled by warclaw stomp especially since acs were gutted. It's a step in the right direction agianst siege

 

Let me guess: you are on a high population server and / or have proper link. All this gets way less fun if you constantly find yourself outnumbered. We have few and ever fewer mechanisms to help combat size imbalances. This makes it harder and harder to get fair fights in WvW.

 

 

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"nthmetal.9652" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > It should simply be that, a mount that helps players move faster. I just got cuddled by warclaw stomp especially since acs were gutted. It's a step in the right direction agianst siege

>

> Let me guess: you are on a high population server and / or have proper link. All this gets way less fun if you constantly find yourself outnumbered. We have few and ever fewer mechanisms to help combat size imbalances. This makes it harder and harder to get fair fights in WvW.

>

>

 

It's hard to beat nos. With few :(. I do my best to pull my team together and they in turn serve me well by organizing and keeping us strong. Team work can only do so much

[Gynok.1756]

Please remove downed state from all pvp formats. The downed state is a pve feature and has always been a nuisance in all pvp formats.

[DutchRiders.2871]

> @"nthmetal.9652" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > It should simply be that, a mount that helps players move faster. I just got cuddled by warclaw stomp especially since acs were gutted. It's a step in the right direction agianst siege

>

> Let me guess: you are on a high population server and / or have proper link. All this gets way less fun if you constantly find yourself outnumbered. We have few and ever fewer mechanisms to help combat size imbalances. This makes it harder and harder to get fair fights in WvW.

>

>

 

1 Mounts and siege should not have this much impact on the game. There is already a huge defenders advantage. Twenty to thirty peeps can definitely hold a T2/3 for a significant amount of time.

 

2 if you are fighting in off hours or a dead server just transfer.

 

 

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > @"nthmetal.9652" said:

> > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > It should simply be that, a mount that helps players move faster. I just got cuddled by warclaw stomp especially since acs were gutted. It's a step in the right direction agianst siege

> >

> > Let me guess: you are on a high population server and / or have proper link. All this gets way less fun if you constantly find yourself outnumbered. We have few and ever fewer mechanisms to help combat size imbalances. This makes it harder and harder to get fair fights in WvW.

> >

> >

>

> 1 Mounts and siege should not have this much impact on the game. There is already a huge defenders advantage. Twenty to thirty peeps can definitely hold a T2/3 for a significant amount of time.

>

> 2 if you are fighting in off hours or a dead server just transfer.

>

>

 

Actually if u have that many has the defenders have(at least the same amount of very close to it), the defenders are in disadvantege.........

[DutchRiders.2871]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > @"nthmetal.9652" said:

> > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > > It should simply be that, a mount that helps players move faster. I just got cuddled by warclaw stomp especially since acs were gutted. It's a step in the right direction agianst siege

> > >

> > > Let me guess: you are on a high population server and / or have proper link. All this gets way less fun if you constantly find yourself outnumbered. We have few and ever fewer mechanisms to help combat size imbalances. This makes it harder and harder to get fair fights in WvW.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > 1 Mounts and siege should not have this much impact on the game. There is already a huge defenders advantage. Twenty to thirty peeps can definitely hold a T2/3 for a significant amount of time.

> >

> > 2 if you are fighting in off hours or a dead server just transfer.

> >

> >

>

> Actually if u have that many has the defenders have(at least the same amount of very close to it), the defenders are in disadvantege.........

 

A map blob has like 70

[gebrechen.5643]

I still don't get why people think mount stomp was a huge problem. Are those the same people that think Gyro and Stealth stomps are fine or a different kind?

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"gebrechen.5643" said:

> I still don't get why people think mount stomp was a huge problem. Are those the same people that think Gyro and Stealth stomps are fine or a different kind?

 

Its just was freaking lame, If one wants better insta down use a banner from warrior.

 

Also the usage of warclaw were making warrior elite banner useless(warclaw was overshadowing warrior banned) and not needed, on a very low DC, now that people saw how strong it is to insta kil downed players mayybee people will get ourt of the lots of scourges and FB and start adding more builds.

[gebrechen.5643]

The banner is still better because it's usable while in combat. I don't really see an army of mounts waiting outside a fight just to finish off people.

[DutchRiders.2871]

> @"gebrechen.5643" said:

> The banner is still better because it's usable while in combat. I don't really see an army of mounts waiting outside a fight just to finish off people.

 

I definitely do see players waiting on mounts

[God.2708]

> @"Kunzaito.8169" said:

>

> No one said favor. I said give an avenue to victory. A comped organized group with a commander and food and all that has plenty of advantages. Not least of which is that in the current meta it's nearly impossible to full down someone in an attacking ball using just siege and player damage. The available synergies between sustain and damage classes (read: FB/scrapper/scourge/rev) make it easy to stay healed, revive the downs, and still do tremendous damage.

>

> Look, ultimately, since this is a game, it's about creating fun gameplay that encourages people to play, right? We don't need to concern ourselves much with what realistically "should" happen in a situation. Personally, I think it's bad for the game to make it futile to log in to wvw unless there's a commander running. If you can't hope to hold anything against an organized blob, people will log off unless their celebmander is on running a ktrain. We can all see that the game has trended further and further in that direction over the years. I personally don't find it fun to just mindlessly cap things against helpless opposition. Nor to watch helplessly while an opposing blob just takes anything they want. I guess I am in the minority given how popular blobbing is but I think WvW loses a lot more players by making the barriers to entry so high and by making it completely unfun and unrewarding to play if you're not on the blob side.

 

Right. And this is my qualm below.

 

> @"Celsith.2753" said:

>

> Bolded the part that I really want to emphasize. It's simply not possible to make a coordinated compd up on voip equal number group to magically appear and fight the enemy every time they have likewise. It's going to be random pugs trying with what tools they have. I spend lots of time supply trapping, counter sieging, trying to make other players understand that destroying supply and siege does more to protect something than trying to take on a blob when you have the outmanned buff. But when you DO have to fight, you are facing an uphill battle of killing yourself with retaliation, doing next to no damage because everyone has full barrier and protection and seeing any one that you do manage to focus down just getting instantly rezzed with full hp. Risking a mount stomp could and did whittle down a blob sometimes to a point where they left. And when it didn't turn the tide, at least the defenders got a sense that it wasn't completely futile and they stood a chance.

>

> Your enemy needs to feel like it's worth logging in. At this point, it isn't.

 

You are asking for a solution to a problem it self perpetuates. Why isn't it possible to make a coordinated compd up group? Why isn't possible to tag? 50% of the reason you need VOIP is to communicate quickly IE you just went down and need to get up in .5s or you're going to get warclaw stomped. You are opining about the loss of warclaw creating a barrier of entry for new/low level players who don't even have it yet and aren't realizing that the warclaw created a barrier of entry for COMMANDERS and made COMMANDERS leave. You being in in a BlobvCloud and wanting that tiny ray of hope from the mount finish is something the mount finish helped create in the first place (it is not the only thing, but it is one of the things).

 

And yes sometimes timezones are going to timezone, and that's why everyone is all 'alliances plz anet'. But, The warclaw finish didn't add hope, you can neatly pick/finish downed with a whole two people (Deadeye bountiful theft strip, DH pull into traps, deadeye stealth stomp is particularly deadly), it just frustrated people who were trying to learn to coordinate and work with others and fight outnumbered.

 

This is not a smoking gun change that will make WvW a magical pretty place, but it is a step in the direction of improving group play which WvW sorely needed. It is not, in my opinion, worth helping the small cloud defend an objective at the cost of hurting the small coordinated group fight the blob.

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > > Rip warclaw. One of the few things that actually aided against a larger or compd group when your server didnt have one. VIva la blob.

> >

> > With no statistical or factual data to back up my statement, I will suggest the people who suffered most often from the mount stomp were those who were outnumbered...not from those they were fighting, but from the rando who happened to be passing by or returning to tag who scored a cheap, effortless and undeserved kill by pressing their 1 key. Sure the outnumbered group could get help in the same way, but statistically, the more people a server has on the map, the more likely one of their randos will jump into your fight.

> >

>

> Now it's ONLY going to favor blobs.. just like almost everything else. I don't see anything that takes away tools from pugs desperately trying to stop a meta squad blob as a positive.

>

>

 

If you want to limit blob, there need to be something that destroy big groups more easily than small groups.

Should be arrow cart role.

[Celsith.2753]

> @"God.2708" said:

 

> And yes sometimes timezones are going to timezone, and that's why everyone is all 'alliances plz anet'. But, The warclaw finish didn't add hope, you can neatly pick/finish downed with a whole two people (Deadeye bountiful theft strip, DH pull into traps, deadeye stealth stomp is particularly deadly), it just frustrated people who were trying to learn to coordinate and work with others and fight outnumbered.

>

I wonder if you understand the type of scenario some of us are talking about lol.

 

[Celsith.2753]

> @"Kulvar.1239" said:

 

> If you want to limit blob, there need to be something that destroy big groups more easily than small groups.

> Should be arrow cart role.

 

No. Because guess what? No matter how much you buff the siege damage to players, it's ALWAYS going to hurt small groups more than large ones. Buffing ballistas to do more damage to siege and hitting more reliably, so you can destroy the blobs siege would be a lot more helpful. I miss the days when you could stealth behind and kill a few trebs without it taking so long you have little chance of succeeding.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > > Rip warclaw. One of the few things that actually aided against a larger or compd group when your server didnt have one. VIva la blob.

> >

> > the people who suffered most often from the mount stomp were those who were outnumbered...not from those they were fighting, but from the rando who happened to be passing by or returning to tag who scored a cheap, effortless and undeserved kill by pressing their 1 key.

>

> Yup we get lots of successful rezzes off while a swarm of scourges stand around us doing aoe. Same with traditional stomps, totally doable in the middle of an enemy zerg.

> <,<

>

 

I honestly have no idea what people are talking about the bigger zerg using mount stomp. Why would you bother with stomping at all if you massively outnumber the enemy? Just cleave cleave cleave superspeed poison and collect your bags. Unless you're running Salsa (which I do rec for forum regulars), you probably will not survive a big zerg running over your downed body, mounts or not.

 

God it's like nobody knows how to karma train blob or something. In a zerg, you generally have the slowpokes that potato and that's what mounts were for to thin the crowd a bit.

 

I suppose if you are talking about like fighting very small scale it does matter (eg, 2v4 where you are good at ressing each other), but if you're doing 1vX you're probably going to die anyways if you go down. OTOH, if you have a buddy fighting 1v3 or something, then the mount stomp certainly could have secured a down, and evened the odds.

 

Honestly, I see very few scenarios that a 1 target stomp would benefit the larger groups, and in the ones that do, it really doesn't matter anyways.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > > > Rip warclaw. One of the few things that actually aided against a larger or compd group when your server didnt have one. VIva la blob.

> > >

> > > the people who suffered most often from the mount stomp were those who were outnumbered...not from those they were fighting, but from the rando who happened to be passing by or returning to tag who scored a cheap, effortless and undeserved kill by pressing their 1 key.

> >

> > Yup we get lots of successful rezzes off while a swarm of scourges stand around us doing aoe. Same with traditional stomps, totally doable in the middle of an enemy zerg.

> > <,<

> >

>

> I honestly have no idea what people are talking about the bigger zerg using mount stomp.

> Honestly, I see very few scenarios that a 1 target stomp would benefit the larger groups, and in the ones that do, it really doesn't matter anyways.

 

Because you're not looking beyond organized zerg vs zerg. That may be what reset night looks like, but the other 6 days of the week, spread across timezones that aren't prime, that isn't the norm. Instead what you have are two (or 3) groups of disparate sizes battling it out...and the randos that swarm around both, like toilet bugs, and that's where the issue is. The people not in squad, not in comms, free to do whatever they want...they are the ones that made use of the Warstomp.

 

You move your squad into the Lords room or base of the tower, you fight it out, downs are generated on both sides, and then BAM...along comes some green on their mount, insta-stomping your downed players and rallying the enemy. This happens on both offense and defense, and I maintain that this benefits the **server** with more players because, statistically, the more players a server has on the field, the higher the probability they will be hanging around the zerg, or just passing by to score a free kill they didn't earn.

 

If they want to join in the fight and cleave a downed player, or go through the work of an actual stomp - welcome to the party pal! But that isn't what the Warclaw enabled them to do.

 

And before anyone gets on me for ragging on randos, the same applies to respawns, again on either offense or defense, someone riding back to the battle on their warclaw will take the opportunity to leap in and score a kill, while those dismounted can do very little to stop them if they are already in the middle of a fight, because 8k health and immune to CC, yada yada yada.

 

And you're saying you've never experienced that? Ok. Well I won't call you a liar, but I will point out that just because you've never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and happen a lot.

 

In your average group fight if I get defeated 10 times, 6 of them will be by cleave, 1 by a stomp, and 3 by a Warclaw. Would I have been rallied those 3 times? I can't say, possibly not, and likely would have perished to AoE cleave. But I can also tell you the numerous times I've been in a group on SMC Lord's when a member suddenly went into downed state, and before we could get them up some John Mcclane wannabe pounced in on their mount for the kill. And that happens whether we are the 20 players surrounded by a cloud of 40, or 40 players keeping 20 defenders at bay. Because without concentrated / coordinated attacks, you're not dismounting a Warclaw player before they can stomp. .

 

If that is the type of gameplay you want, fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion - thankfully after all this time though, ANET finally saw reason.

 

[Sleepwalker.1398]

Got me thinking, does the balance team talk to comp groups or meta zerg guild leaders asking them what they want updated in WvW?

These siege changes and warclaw changes kinda benefits them enormously.

Atm there are utility/F5 skills/runes thats just too good when raising down enemies. They not even touched.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > > @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > > > > Rip warclaw. One of the few things that actually aided against a larger or compd group when your server didnt have one. VIva la blob.

> > > >

> > > > the people who suffered most often from the mount stomp were those who were outnumbered...not from those they were fighting, but from the rando who happened to be passing by or returning to tag who scored a cheap, effortless and undeserved kill by pressing their 1 key.

> > >

> > > Yup we get lots of successful rezzes off while a swarm of scourges stand around us doing aoe. Same with traditional stomps, totally doable in the middle of an enemy zerg.

> > > <,<

> > >

> >

> > I honestly have no idea what people are talking about the bigger zerg using mount stomp.

> > Honestly, I see very few scenarios that a 1 target stomp would benefit the larger groups, and in the ones that do, it really doesn't matter anyways.

>

> Because you're not looking beyond organized zerg vs zerg. That may be what reset night looks like, but the other 6 days of the week, spread across timezones that aren't prime, that isn't the norm. Instead what you have are two (or 3) groups of disparate sizes battling it out...and the randos that swarm around both, like toilet bugs, and that's where the issue is. The people not in squad, not in comms, free to do whatever they want...they are the ones that made use of the Warstomp.

 

I'm afraid your assumptions are completely wrong. I don't even play on reset most of the time, and do a lot of that cloud stuff myself. I'm speaking exclusively in the context of a clouding zerg that has no tag defending against the opposite map blob., in particular with the outnumbered buff on me. And from my experience, any halfway working train will just steamroll through random singles that get caught. The people on the sidelines waiting on their mounts would do much more actually generating the downs.

 

Your goal as the smaller group is to not get downed in the first place, and if you do, to have the entire group res you all at once. Since this is practically impossible if disorganized, you can only rely on the former. This is not to exclude the point that ressing in a bomb is exceptionally risky and allows the enemy an easy place to unload everything.

 

>

> You move your squad into the Lords room or base of the tower, you fight it out, downs are generated on both sides, and then BAM...along comes some green on their mount, insta-stomping your downed players and rallying the enemy. This happens on both offense and defense, and I maintain that this benefits the **server** with more players because, statistically, the more players a server has on the field, the higher the probability they will be hanging around the zerg, or just passing by to score a free kill they didn't earn.

 

And if they weren't insta stomped, then they probably would have died a few seconds later., If we're not talking about organized plays, we're not having healers or people ready to res on comms, and even if they do get back up I wonder how they're going to get out of the massive corrupts and whatnot.

 

I'm not really sure what the differnece is. While it is true I would have tried mount stomping myself, I would have probably gotten off and done Sword of Justice 4x on the pile of low/downed players. Now imagine what happens if there's 10 other necros or w/e doing the same thing. But honestly, I only used the mount stomp in fights we were clearly losing on and there was no way to fight them head on. If we're already winning, then just free cast and tag more people to get more bags.

 

Btw statistically the more players a side has, the greater their ability to secure downs they make and also prevent their own people from being downed in the first place. Imagine if those players were actually contributing to the boons and sustain. You would get much less downs from them in the first place. If you outnumber your enemy greatly, you shouldn't lose anyone in the first place, so therefore securing a kill as the smaller group is a bigger victory.

 

Take an extreme example of you fighting 10 people but 9 of them are mounted. Yes, any of them could battle maul and kill you. Sure, but wouldn't it be more practical for all of them to just attack you and end the fight?

 

>

> And you're saying you've never experienced that? Ok. Well I won't call you a liar, but I will point out that just because you've never seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and happen a lot.

 

Of course it happens.

 

 

 

>

> In your average group fight if I get defeated 10 times, 6 of them will be by cleave, 1 by a stomp, and 3 by a Warclaw. Would I have been rallied those 3 times? I can't say, possibly not, and likely would have perished to AoE cleave.

 

So what are even we arguing about again?

 

> But I can also tell you the numerous times I've been in a group on SMC Lord's when a member suddenly went into downed state, and before we could get them up some John Mcclane wannabe pounced in on their mount for the kill. And that happens whether we are the 20 players surrounded by a cloud of 40, or 40 players keeping 20 defenders at bay. Because without concentrated / coordinated attacks, you're not dismounting a Warclaw player before they can stomp. .

>

> If that is the type of gameplay you want, fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion - thankfully after all this time though, ANET finally saw reason.

>

 

/shrugs. Sounds like the problem is immunity to CC and difficulty of dismounting. I mean WvW was fine without mounts too...

 

Oh and of course with the shade buffs, the stomp will be the less of your worries, I will say. And Dragon Banners still are strong. I could probably list half a dozen things that impact my experience far more than anything discussed here.