Earth Line... Let's talk about it.

[MyPuppy.8970]

So... I was just wondering how toughness does actually work. I was looking for damage reduction per point of toughness. In fact I was wondering how much toughness you'd need to have the equivalent of -33% damage reduction. Then I remembered traits like strength of stone. Why would the class with the least toughness (and avoids to be hit anyway) get any benefit from it? It makes sense for warrior's armored attack trait, but for ele? In general ele is the class that benefits less from stat conversion traits and bonuses since it's the class with the least stats of all.

Why is Earth so bad? Imo none of its traits synergizes with anything else. Except for elemental shielding, rest is mostly situational and conditional and passive. When in earth... who ever camps earth? Or any other attunement for that matter, since you need to piano all the time to get things done? And again, why would the class that doesn't want to be hit have so many on hit effects (yes including auras)?

Earth isn't that good for defense, nor offense, nor team support/utility. Would it make ele OP to have it at least ~~good~~ useful in one of those things? How should it be reworked without making it an unkillable meme?

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Earth is bad because of awkward gimmicks.

Yes you have defense, but passive damage reduction in minor trait, one only works in earth, the other only at melee .... Okai

Protection on aura : you need auras ... so fire lane or tempest. Not very versatile trait.

Armor of earth : 300 sec CD. No comment.

Serrated stones; It's okai for pve. Still +5% bleeding damage ? A bit cheap. A proc on critical hits or something to apply bleeding (like Fire traitline, or ranger, or war, or necro) would have been better to put pressure in pvp/wvw.

Rock Solid : 2 sec 1 stack of stab, 240 range. It's almost an insult.

Strenght of stone : 1 bleeding, 3sec ICD ? Why ? It's not like elem had immobilize everywhere ... 1 in staff (schockwave) 1 in Dagger (earth rush?) and signet of earth ... Or Arcane ? I'm supposed to play arcane Surge + arcane skills to play condition and apply 1 bleeding on immobilize ? Or tempest earth overload ... I don't get why they nerfed this trait.

Grandmaster traits are better, but still :

Diamond skin, it's pretty cool, only if you play with vitality/toughness, still it needs ennemies to hurt you.

Written in stone, is the only trait you need in the traitline. Almost only trash, just to take this trait.

Stone heart : semi-active toughness. It's a suicidal trait, you think you're okai, then you leave earth to cleanse or heal, then bam, reality hits you. If earth weapons skills were okai to apply condition or support, it could be interesting.

 

Earth only has an utility if you play bunker tempest, or bunker condi signet in pvp/wvw, but you're already bunker before you equip the traitline. Otherwise because you don't really have better choice (condi weaver in raids).

 

To improve it :

Make a proc for bleedings in minor trait or Serrated stones. Or balance +20% bleeding damage and +5% or no bleeding duration.

Strenght of stone could apply 1sec immobilize when swap to earth or when you hit a foe under 50% life.

Rock solid. 2 stacks, 360 range.

Delete Armor of earth.

Protection on auras : it could apply 2sec magnetic aura when stunned or hit in the back, something like this.

Stone flesh + geomancer's training overlap, to me it's very clunky. they could merg and work like : -10% dmg from nearby foes (360); when on earth, extend range or add -7% ...

[Dadnir.5038]

You know... Elementalist isn't the profession with the least toughness, it's the opposite in fact.

 

You can keep up _Rock barrier_ permanently, giving you 250 toughness. You can also maintain _earth signet_ passive effect for perma 180 toughness. (Just this much give the elementalist more toughness than a DM necromancer can potentially have in sPvP/WvW.) Add _Earth shield_ and you're above all professions when you come to toughness (you even top heavy armor profession's defense composed form armor and toughness. Only warrior can gain temporarily more defense through _rousing resilience_). And that's just core elementalist, 2630 defense without armor (guardian reach 2512, necromancer 2520.)

 

As an elementalist you also have broken potential of damage reduction (almost as much as the necromancer's shroud+protection with elementalist's elite specs). If damage reduction mod are multiplicative (like other mods) a weaver can temporarily reach up to 88% damage reduction (without toughness), tempest can temorarily reach 65% damage reduction (without toughness). Only revenant (jalis) and necro (in shroud) can reach higher damage reduction mods.

[MyPuppy.8970]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> Strenght of stone could apply 1sec immobilize when swap to earth or when you hit a foe under 50% life.

 

 

More immobilize and cripple on earth would be nice since you have close to zero mobility options. Water could use more chill too btw. Agree with all you said.

[MyPuppy.8970]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> You know... Elementalist isn't the profession with the least toughness, it's the opposite in fact.

>

> You can keep up _Rock barrier_ permanently, giving you 250 toughness. You can also maintain _earth signet_ passive effect for perma 180 toughness. (Just this much give the elementalist more toughness than a DM necromancer can potentially have in sPvP/WvW.) Add _Earth shield_ and you're above all professions when you come to toughness (you even top heavy armor profession's defense composed form armor and toughness. Only warrior can gain temporarily more defense through _rousing resilience_). And that's just core elementalist, 2630 defense without armor (guardian reach 2512, necromancer 2520.)

>

> As an elementalist you also have broken potential of damage reduction (almost as much as the necromancer's shroud+protection with elementalist's elite specs). If damage reduction mod are multiplicative (like other mods) a weaver can temporarily reach up to 88% damage reduction (without toughness), tempest can temorarily reach 65% damage reduction (without toughness). Only revenant (jalis) and necro (in shroud) can reach higher damage reduction mods.

 

True enough, you could achieve high toughness with some investment. Is a scepter condi core with earth signet and earth shield viable? How would you deal against heavy condition specs?

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> You know... Elementalist isn't the profession with the least toughness, it's the opposite in fact.

>

> You can keep up _Rock barrier_ permanently, giving you 250 toughness. You can also maintain _earth signet_ passive effect for perma 180 toughness. (Just this much give the elementalist more toughness than a DM necromancer can potentially have in sPvP/WvW.) Add _Earth shield_ and you're above all professions when you come to toughness (you even top heavy armor profession's defense composed form armor and toughness. Only warrior can gain temporarily more defense through _rousing resilience_). And that's just core elementalist, 2630 defense without armor (guardian reach 2512, necromancer 2520.)

>

> As an elementalist you also have broken potential of damage reduction (almost as much as the necromancer's shroud+protection with elementalist's elite specs). If damage reduction mod are multiplicative (like other mods) a weaver can temporarily reach up to 88% damage reduction (without toughness), tempest can temorarily reach 65% damage reduction (without toughness). Only revenant (jalis) and necro (in shroud) can reach higher damage reduction mods.

 

That's right.

On weaver I use the weaveself + dagger air/earth dual attack ( +20% +25% reduction, + the 1-3sec sec of protection remaining)+ primordial stance (vulnerability); it's just insane to tank melee and prepare for a burst like convergence + fire/air dual attack, or Churning earth + schoking aura.

Earth shield is really fun with fresh-air tempest in PvP, you're able chain cc with the schoking aura + earth shield #4 and #3, then schoking aura again, under the air overload. With vitality/toughness bonus + barriers + protection. Too bad the #5 prevents capture.

About scepter rock barrier is very strong... I've seen an amazaing fresh air weaver last days in WvW, he killed me very fast and I couldn't reach him even with chill, cripple and leaps, then I came back with flash + signet of earth = he died faster than I did, no matter rock barrier or not. There is no real place for scepter in players v players mods, but some meme build like zerg fire/air unravel or for dueling.

.

But it just proof Earth lane is useless in most of configurations. You better want active defense when you need them rather than to camp earth for -7% damage and no crit or 1sec icd condicleanse.

[MyPuppy.8970]

I remember an old trait that would grant you toughness whenever you channeled skills on scepter. Which was convenient since all autos ~~were~~ are channels.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

Rock Solid is meta in 2020

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The way toughness works is a bit odd. Basically it is just added on to armor, and then the armor stat divides how much damage your opponent does. To answer your question, the amount of toughness that you need to be equivalent to protection depends on how much you start with. For an ascended elementalist with a base armor of 1967, it takes about 1000 points of toughness to reduce the damage you receive to 66%. The more toughness you have from gear, the less that additional toughness from traits impacts things. Because of this, there isn't really a "damage reduction per point of toughness" equation.

 

If you're at low toughness, then the bonuses from traits and abilities is much better. I.E. if you have no toughness (armor of 1967), and equip the Signet of Earth, the additional 180 toughness will decrease incoming damage to 91.6% of what it was previously. The way you figure this out is divide the base armor of 1967 by the new armor after adding all of the toughness points from gear, traits, and skills.

[MyPuppy.8970]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> The way toughness works is a bit odd. Basically it is just added on to armor, and then the armor stat divides how much damage your opponent does. To answer your question, the amount of toughness that you need to be equivalent to protection depends on how much you start with. For an ascended elementalist with a base armor of 1967, it takes about 1000 points of toughness to reduce the damage you receive to 66%. The more toughness you have from gear, the less that additional toughness from traits impacts things. Because of this, there isn't really a "damage reduction per point of toughness" equation.

>

> If you're at low toughness, then the bonuses from traits and abilities is much better. I.E. if you have no toughness (armor of 1967), and equip the Signet of Earth, the additional 180 toughness will decrease incoming damage to 91.6% of what it was previously. The way you figure this out is divide the base armor of 1967 by the new armor after adding all of the toughness points from gear, traits, and skills.

 

Thanks a lot, it is helpful. Seems a lot of investment for playing without protection :/

[God.2708]

> @"MyPuppy.8970" said:

>

> Thanks a lot, it is helpful. Seems a lot of investment for playing without protection :/

 

There's a damage reduction per point of toughness equation, it's just complicated especially when factoring in flat damage reduction.

 

As for earth line, the big struggle point with it IMO is that it is a very self preservation oriented line, which doesn't fit into what elementalist does generally. It either is playing a very evasive high damage build, or is playing a supportive build that gets its self preservation from other places.

 

If there was a reason for an elementalist to want to sit there and have a slap fight with say, a warrior, the earth line would be the go to pick every time. There's just no build or way for the elementalist to want or need to do that.

 

That's not to say there aren't things to improve in the line (Cough Rock Solid Cough). But in general I feel like a lot of the complaints are more oriented around 'Why would I pick earth line for X build' and not 'Why sort of build would make me want to pick earth line?'

[MyPuppy.8970]

> @"God.2708" said:

> > @"MyPuppy.8970" said:

> >

> > Thanks a lot, it is helpful. Seems a lot of investment for playing without protection :/

>

> There's a damage reduction per point of toughness equation, it's just complicated especially when factoring in flat damage reduction.

>

> As for earth line, the big struggle point with it IMO is that it is a very self preservation oriented line, which doesn't fit into what elementalist does generally. It either is playing a very evasive high damage build, or is playing a supportive build that gets its self preservation from other places.

>

> If there was a reason for an elementalist to want to sit there and have a slap fight with say, a warrior, the earth line would be the go to pick every time. There's just no build or way for the elementalist to want or need to do that.

>

> That's not to say there aren't things to improve in the line (Cough Rock Solid Cough). But in general I feel like a lot of the complaints are more oriented around 'Why would I pick earth line for X build' and not 'Why sort of build would make me want to pick earth line?'

 

Stone Heart is nice against heavy power comps if you can spam weakness on top of that, but your pressure drops dramatically once you attune to earth... on core anyways. Feels just like delaying the inevitable. I'd consider taking Earth if Air and Arcane weren't the only sources of swiftness, since I've always valued mobility and flexibility over facetanking.

[Stallic.2397]

If only Anet could buff the traitline when it comes to barrier and stability generation, while also increasing protection uptime.

 

Bleeding should be focused for all three lines. "Maybe damage reduction from bleeding foes" attached to one of the grandmasters. Earth also needs another condition. Perhaps Weakness

 

Lastly, please fix the 300sec CD trait in Pvp. Stab is so paramount after Feb patch. Any change to the trait would be a buff, as long as it still provides stab.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Stallic.2397" said:

> If only Anet could buff the traitline when it comes to barrier and stability generation, while also increasing protection uptime.

>

> Bleeding should be focused for all three lines. "Maybe damage reduction from bleeding foes" attached to one of the grandmasters. Earth also needs another condition. Perhaps Weakness

>

> Lastly, please fix the 300sec CD trait in Pvp. Stab is so paramount after Feb patch. Any change to the trait would be a buff, as long as it still provides stab.

 

I really dislike the 300s passives. I feel like they are great in open world, but utterly useless in PvP due to the cooldown. If you get rid of them, it feels a bit like a slap in the face to the PvE crowd for the benefit of PvP players. But to keep them as they are is just a waste of a trait slot.

 

 

[Hannelore.8153]

The Earth line isn't any worse than the other traitlines. They're all quite bad because they specialise in just one thing, and you can only take three of them at a time, or less if you have a subclass, which effectively limits your build.

 

Compare this to say, Revenant, who can trait both Legends they use. Ele will never be able to trait all attunements with the current system which means there's always some dead weight, and usually that's going to be Earth.

 

The class just doesn't fit well with the trait system.

[MyPuppy.8970]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> The Earth line isn't any worse than the other traitlines. They're all quite bad because they specialise in just one thing, and you can only take three of them at a time, or less if you have a subclass, which effectively limits your build.

>

> Compare this to say, Revenant, who can trait both Legends they use. Ele will never be able to trait all attunements with the current system which means there's always some dead weight, and usually that's going to be Earth.

>

> The class just doesn't fit well with the trait system.

 

Amen to that but that's not gonna change :/ A whole rework would be needed, but like pretty much everyone said, every traitline should be beneficial to all attunements (since we have to play with all of them), be more synergetic. All traitlines should be "arcanized" imo. Current trait system fits well for classes that have one specific profession mechanic (steal/burst skill/shatter/shroud/pet...) but struggles when it comes to 4.

[Jski.6180]

Earth line needs barrier generation for both self and as support it also needs to lose bleed and go more dps physical dmg not spike like fire and air has. How you do that well i am not sure maybe aura giver barrier and remove the ability for earth to crit but have it hit much harder and make it much harder to "block" earth attks.

[supreme.3602]

Earth traits are in need of a buff. We should at least be able to access Poison/Torment somehow since Bleeding is 100% related to it, in-game and in real life (infections). The PvE/Competitive Bleeding nerf to Strength of Stone was not needed at all, and neither was the 3-second cooldown per target. I mean, how often does the average Elementalist go out of their way to immobilise people? I get that there is a meme build dedicated in doing such a thing, but it's not game-breaking, is it?

 

I'm fine with the current Earth Grandmaster traits, but when it comes to Master, I don't feel the same way. Is Rock Solid used much? It just seems a little lacklustre, to be honest. It might be advantageous for Weavers, but not so much for Tempests who rely on Earth Overloads, or Core specs who have to wait for the attunement to recharge to activate it.

 

I have an idea I'd like to share regarding Written in Stone. It comes from a historical trait which once used to be in Fire. Here's the link below.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire%27s_Embrace

 

What I have in mind is to add this old trait onto Written in Stone. Signets are rarely used in today's meta. The only people who do use them offensively are Condition Tempests like myself and a handful of Condition Weavers. Adding this historical Fire trait onto WiS will be unbelievably beneficial to our gameplay and will also add to our build diversity.

 

Another idea is to remove the Fire Aura it provides and replace it with Poison or Torment. I know there would a lot of people that would enjoy that a lot. And I've just remembered something as I'm writing this: Warrior has access to Torment on off-hand sword, yet we get nothing of the sort. Where is the logic in that?

[Nimrod.9240]

> @"Dahir.4158" said:

> Earth traits are in need of a buff. We should at least be able to access Poison/Torment somehow since Bleeding is 100% related to it, in-game and in real life (infections). The PvE/Competitive Bleeding nerf to Strength of Stone was not needed at all, and neither was the 3-second cooldown per target. I mean, how often does the average Elementalist go out of their way to immobilise people? I get that there is a meme build dedicated in doing such a thing, but it's not game-breaking, is it?

>...

I am running a heavy CC/imob build in WvW, dont know if its the meme build you speak of, but I think its pretty nuts (bunker arcane staff tempest). But I dont run earth with this.

I think one of the problems with the earth line is the lack of condi cleanse. Diamond skin seems nice and all, but for it to work you need to be over the threshold, meaning you better also take the water line to get the healing in the first place. Condis are not impacted by toughness, meaning if it comes to the decision what defensive setup you want to run in your build, water is almost always superior because of the amount of condi cleans it provides (+ healing + reduced CD for cantrips!).

I think every build, to be even considered competetiv in PvP/WvW, is "hardcaped" by its ability to deal with conditions, and earth alone is bad in this regard.

Maybe instead of Diamond Skin, we make Earhern Blessing a Grandmaster and change it to something like "decrease the duration of ALL conditions applied to you by (dunno, between 40-66%?)".

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

The very first HOURS of Strength of Stone there was no ICD, but like in the day or the next day they added one. Then the 1 bleeding stack over the 3...

It's damaging, because the "meme build" arcane (arcane surge)/earth has many counters, but it could have been a viable build for core with Fire or Water; may be more than tempest/weaver who would have missed some cleanse in the specs.

But outside of Arcane surge Elem has close to zero immobilize, so the trait seems really awkward.

[MyPuppy.8970]

Earth is so half-assed... 1 poor bleeding here and there, 5% damage against bleeding foes when you do barely any damage at all when you slot earth because all the traitline is dedicated to personal defense, condi removal on hit-with icd-and health treshold on the squishiest profession that already needs to be hit for auras having any use at all. Sure ele can be tanky when specced for it, but so can any other class with higher base defensive stats/mechanics.

 

Since earth was the condition line historically, I think poison and torment would fit as well. Maybe replace bleeding with torment on immobilize [Earthen shackles], poison on burning [suffocative gas] in Fire, burning on chill in Water line [Frostburn] and change serrated stones to apply bleeding when you do damage with earth skills.

And voilà we have our ~~cancerous~~ lovely condition build.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> The Earth line isn't any worse than the other traitlines. They're all quite bad because they specialise in just one thing, and you can only take three of them at a time, or less if you have a subclass, which effectively limits your build.

>

> Compare this to say, Revenant, who can trait both Legends they use. Ele will never be able to trait all attunements with the current system which means there's always some dead weight, and usually that's going to be Earth.

>

> The class just doesn't fit well with the trait system.

 

Truth be told, I sometime wonder why ANet carried on the element traitlines from GW1 to GW2 while they forsook warrior's weapon traitlines.

[Ganathar.4956]

Rock solid is the biggest joke of a trait in the game. This would barely make it as a minor adept these days. As a major master trait it should give more stability on attuning to earth, and then another effect on top of that.

[MyPuppy.8970]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > The Earth line isn't any worse than the other traitlines. They're all quite bad because they specialise in just one thing, and you can only take three of them at a time, or less if you have a subclass, which effectively limits your build.

> >

> > Compare this to say, Revenant, who can trait both Legends they use. Ele will never be able to trait all attunements with the current system which means there's always some dead weight, and usually that's going to be Earth.

> >

> > The class just doesn't fit well with the trait system.

>

> Truth be told, I sometime wonder why ANet carried on the element traitlines from GW1 to GW2 while they forsook warrior's weapon traitlines.

 

Lack of inspiration or imagination maybe. But all the traits/skills have been watered down. I'd love if staff earth 1 stoning had the same effect as the original skill. Or if MS had original KD to justify the cd+rooting+forever casting time (and i think it did in gw2 alpha) although aoe was increased.

[supreme.3602]

> @"MyPuppy.8970" said:

> Earth is so kitten... 1 poor bleeding here and there, 5% damage against bleeding foes when you do barely any damage at all when you slot earth because all the traitline is dedicated to personal defense, condi removal on hit-with icd-and health treshold on the squishiest profession that already needs to be hit for auras having any use at all. Sure ele can be tanky when specced for it, but so can any other class with higher base defensive stats/mechanics.

>

> Since earth was the condition line historically, I think poison and torment would fit as well. Maybe replace bleeding with torment on immobilize [Earthen shackles], poison on burning [suffocative gas] in Fire, burning on chill in Water line [Frostburn] and change serrated stones to apply bleeding when you do damage with earth skills.

> And voilà we have our ~~cancerous~~ lovely condition build.

 

Best suggestion I have ever seen