PvE power holo vs condition holo

[mov.1246]

I have done some tests on golem to see whats the difference between power holo and condition holo.

My rotations are not perfect, but i think it is pretty solid.

Here you can see what results I have achieved:

 

Meta sword/pistol power DPS + food:

no boons, no conditions: 14,6k

25 might+fury+all conditions : 23,2k

all boons and all class specific buffs+all conditions: 35,5k

(I have used all conditions on golem here to maximize output from modified ammunition)

 

Meta pistol/pistol condition DPS+food:

no boons: 18,6k

25 might+fury: 21,4k

all boons and all class specific buffs: 33,5k

 

My conclusion there is that power holo is clearly ahead to condition in most cases because:

- power has better DPS in group content

- power has better burst damage

- power has easier rotation

- some bosses using phases, this is an advantage to power holo because this time can be used to cool down photon forge, but is a disadvantage to condition holo because it cancels all active conditions on the boss

- condition is less flexible on moving targets because of stationary fire fields (fire bomb, napalm and PLB)

 

There is really no reason to play condition over power, so condi holo could be buffed IMO

[skunkstank.6128]

Uhm, no just because the e-spec doesn't excel in one form of combat doesn't mean it should imedietely be buffed. Most e-spec are made with one form of damage in mind, so it's actually good that power holo is better than condi holo cause i mean you can still play it and enjoy it but it doesn't have to top charts. Especially considering that engineer and it's e-spec are currently the strongest in the game

[Dawdler.8521]

I thought this was the reason why viper is meta. Do **ALL** the dps.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

As you say power sword holo is very effective with very simple rotation. Honestly I see almost only* lazy holos playing without kits, however they are still doing great work.

Condi ? You need 15 fingers so a third hand, between pistols, grenades, flametrower, bombs, remember the CD, dontt equip if CD on, don't interupt skills, ... If you're masochist and like to do 150% of others classes efforts, at least you should play condi weaver, it's more effective and a bit less punitive if you fail at some point.

 

But that's all. We don't need to buff all roles equally, condi, power, support etc, because of golems, *unless to balance meta sometimes.

Except may be Thermal Vision. There was a time this trait gave 10% condition damage, I don't get why they nerfed it to 5%, it was not particulary "broken".

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> As you say power sword holo is very effective with very simple rotation. Honestly I see almost only* lazy holos playing without kits, however they are still doing great work.

> Condi ? You need 15 fingers so a third hand, between pistols, grenades, flametrower, bombs, remember the CD, dontt equip if CD on, don't interupt skills, ... If you're masochist and like to do 150% of others classes efforts, at least you should play condi weaver, it's more effective and a bit less punitive if you fail at some point.

>

> But that's all. We don't need to buff all roles equally, condi, power, support etc, because of golems, *unless to balance meta sometimes.

> Except may be Thermal Vision. There was a time this trait gave 10% condition damage, I don't get why they nerfed it to 5%, it was not particulary "broken".

 

It is just a guess, but thermal vision might have been nerfed because it competes with pinpoint distribution for the slot.

 

Ideally, pinpoint distribution should be the superior choice if you have some allies around you focused on condition damage while thermal vision should be the stronger choice if you are playing solo or just have very few conditions in your team.

 

If thermal vision increases your condition damage by too much, then it could be that it outperforms pinpoint distribution even in it's preferred scenario, making pinpoint distribution a dead trait.

 

**About topic**: I agree that it is not necessary to buff condi holo. It primarily focuses on power damage and that's ok, most elite specs are supporting one of the damage types more than the other.

With the next expansion being announced, I just hope that the next elite spec will focus on conditions as it's main damage type (while filling a support role, so basically like firebrand and scourge have been for their classes). Scrapper and holosmith are both focusing on power damage, so it is time for a condition elite spec.

[Taril.8619]

I think it's fine that Holo does more DPS in Power than in Condi.

 

Especially since buffing Condi Holo can also lead to also buffing Power given that Power also uses Solar Focusing Lens and Photonic Blasting Module (When not using Sword) which are the Holo specific Condi traits.

 

Even when it comes to utilities, Power also uses Grenade and Bomb kits so buffing those is out of the question too.

 

Basically, with Power and Condi Holo being so close to each other in how they're built - Using similar traits, utilities and Holoforge skills. It's too dangerous to buff Condi Holo because it can easily indirectly buff Power Holo.

 

Instead, it would be more prudent to have a new E-Spec focused on Condi so that it can be separate from Power Holo so that its balance doesn't affect Power Holo and instead focus Holo's balance around its Power build.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> I think it's fine that Holo does more DPS in Power than in Condi.

>

> Especially since buffing Condi Holo can also lead to also buffing Power given that Power also uses Solar Focusing Lens and Photonic Blasting Module (When not using Sword) which are the Holo specific Condi traits.

>

> Even when it comes to utilities, Power also uses Grenade and Bomb kits so buffing those is out of the question too.

>

> Basically, with Power and Condi Holo being so close to each other in how they're built - Using similar traits, utilities and Holoforge skills. It's too dangerous to buff Condi Holo because it can easily indirectly buff Power Holo.

>

> Instead, it would be more prudent to have a new E-Spec focused on Condi so that it can be separate from Power Holo so that its balance doesn't affect Power Holo and instead focus Holo's balance around its Power build.

 

There are ways to buff condi holo specifically without increasing power holos dps, tho.

 

For example, they could give the grandmaster trait thermal release valve an effect to increase condition damage after dodging, just like lotus training is doing for daredevils.

Could also be a nice buff for that trait, as far as I am aware it isn't really used in any build currently. It's all about photonic blasting module or enhanced capacity storage unit.

And considering that the attack of the trait can't critically strike anymore, I think tailoring a bit more towards condition damage could be fitting.

 

Still think that we don't **need** to buff condi holo, but there are still ways to buff that playstyle without having to buff power at the same time.

And just wanted to throw out at the same time that I think thermal release valve could use a buff somewhere, doesn't have to be what I suggested here, but something would be nice.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Thermal release valve is already a very powerful trait, and it's supposed to be the "support" trait, not to compete with Photo Blasting Module.

Plus it should be a buff in the core traitlines. We don't have more than one "condi" traitline (except Shrapnel in Explosive, but it's the only trait in the lane + RNG again), while power has some buff also in Explosive, tools ...

 

Why not revert "Grenadier" to cast anew an extra grenade ; add +20 condition damage to Explosive Temper (200 is may be a bit too excessive, but hey) or make the "Assisted rocket" to have 100% chance with Shrapnel, or apply by default a condition.

[wasss.1208]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> Thermal release valve is already a very powerful trait, and it's supposed to be the "support" trait, not to compete with Photo Blasting Module.

> Plus it should be a buff in the core traitlines. We don't have more than one "condi" traitline (except Shrapnel in Explosive, but it's the only trait in the lane + RNG again), while power has some buff also in Explosive, tools ...

>

> Why not revert "Grenadier" to cast anew an extra grenade ; add +20 condition damage to Explosive Temper (200 is may be a bit too excessive, but hey) or make the "Assisted rocket" to have 100% chance with Shrapnel, or apply by default a condition.

 

+1

Grenadier is a must have in competitves because of the velocity, but people (on the suffering end) hate the lesser barrage. Make velocity baseline, and make the trait do something interesing, like throwing an another nade. And Assisted Rocket is a dead trait in every gamemode, it could be reworked into a condition specific trait.

 

> @"Kodama.6453"

> There are ways to buff condi holo specifically without increasing power holos dps, tho.

 

That is easily achieavable by moving a little power damage into longer burning on the holo 4, for example. It can be balanced a way that Berserker gear would deal the same amount of damage after the change, but the skill makes more value with Viper gear. We could even end up with a viable Griever build in the end.

 

> Still think that we don't need to buff condi holo

 

Honestly, I would be happy to see core engi becoming the condi DPS of the profession, holo would be the power, Scrapper the bruiser/tank, mostly for competitive modes, and the upcoming e-spec a support, or an easier to play condi-support hybrid, like Scourge is atm.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> Thermal release valve is already a very powerful trait, and it's supposed to be the "support" trait, not to compete with Photo Blasting Module.

> Plus it should be a buff in the core traitlines. We don't have more than one "condi" traitline (except Shrapnel in Explosive, but it's the only trait in the lane + RNG again), while power has some buff also in Explosive, tools ...

>

> Why not revert "Grenadier" to cast anew an extra grenade ; add +20 condition damage to Explosive Temper (200 is may be a bit too excessive, but hey) or make the "Assisted rocket" to have 100% chance with Shrapnel, or apply by default a condition.

 

How is thermal release valve a "support" trait?

It deals power damage and applies burn in AoE, helps you with heat management by decreasing your heat by 15 and triggers heat therapy, so it gives a bit sustain on dodge.

 

But nothing of this is actually supportive. It is a sustain trait, but not a support trait.

Also I am not really sure if we can consider it a strong trait. It isn't taken in any game mode as far as I am aware of. Either you use a sword with holo and go for enhanced capacity storage unit or you don't use a sword and go for photonic blasting module.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

It supports yourself =) Yeah I meant sustain.

Otherwise it is overused with Explosives/Tools, flashbang + Adrenal implant because you roam faster/longer than with sotrage unit and than any other class.

[mov.1246]

After some thinking and reading responses here i had some ideas to improve condi engi without hurting power builds.

The new meta condi could be core by changing a traitline which isnt used by holo builds – tools.

 

static discharge: the lightning bolt also applies some stacks of confusion.

 

Removing lock on or takedown round and make a new trait called poison gas valve:

this trait is triggered by equiping a kit with a 5 sec cd. In a 240 radius it applies some stacks of poison and give +33% duration on poison.

 

excessive energy now also increases condition damage by 10%.

 

Kinetic battery changed: it now stacks up when equiping a kit with a 2 sec cd, instead by using tool belt skills. This change is a huge buff for kit orientated builds without overpowering holo.

 

Aim-assisted rocket: remove range treshold, reduce power damage a lot and add burning to it. power builds still take explosive temper because of the reduced power damage.

[Wolfb.7025]

Not to sound rude but what's the point of this thread if there is already a guide/benchmarks of condi and power holo in the most optimal scenario?

 

 

1.- Condi holo requieres more precision on skill rotations over power holo.

2.- There is absolutely reason to play condi holo over power holo in some raid encounters where condition damage is favoured.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> Not to sound rude but what's the point of this thread if there is already a guide/benchmarks of condi and power holo in the most optimal scenario?

>

>

> 1.- Condi holo requieres more precision on skill rotations over power holo.

> 2.- There is absolutely reason to play condi holo over power holo in some raid encounters where condition damage is favoured.

 

This.

 

Sorry but the most deciding factor for what to play is most often encounter design, not 1-2k difference in maximum output. In second place usually comes maximum performance which can be based on how fast the ramp is or how long the high sustain is depending on encounter.

 

Power and condi holo, and thus engineer, are both in good places at the moment with being meta and/or good on many raid encounters. There is absolutely no reason to start distributing buffs at the moment.

 

> @"mov.1246" said:

> (I have used all conditions on golem here to maximize output from modified ammunition)

 

The point of running a benchmark is to use standard but also somewhat achievable combat conditions. Not push your personal benchmark as far as possible. Some of those conditions you will not have on a boss up the entire time guaranteed. As such those need to be taken off when running a benchmark for the build. There is a reason why come of the conditions are not on the golem in the snowcrows benchmark for example (like fear, taunt and chilled).

 

If this was about pushing as high numbers as possible, we'd all just run with all boons, all class enhancements, etc. all the time.