Core engineer needs new main hand

[Junkpile.7439]

Pistol is so weak and riffle so awkward. :#

[Kodama.6453]

Agreed, having another mainhand weapon would be great. People were begging for maces on engi for ages, but unfortunately nothing happened to this point.

[Dawdler.8521]

No mace.

 

Mainhand shield.

[EdwinLi.1284]

Sadly they dropped this chance when they introduced Elite Specs.

 

If there is going to be a Main Hand weapon it is sadly going to be locked to a Elite Spec.

 

Besides the Pistol and Rifle was more for their stats and utility rather than their actual direct combat use as Kits will have replaced them even today.

 

One down side of Engineer is that you may have a fancy weapon skin but most of the time it is not seen in combat because of Kits and Photon Forge for optimal combat gameplay.

[Samug.6512]

Core?engi?needs?a?meele?weapon?

 

> @"EdwinLi.1284" said:

> Sadly they dropped this chance when they introduced Elite Specs.

>

> If there is going to be a Main Hand weapon it is sadly going to be locked to a Elite Spec.

 

Not at all, they did introduce another weapon on revanent way after elite specs were introduced. Granted, it was underwater weapon, but still.

[Taril.8619]

> @"EdwinLi.1284" said:

> Sadly they dropped this chance when they introduced Elite Specs.

>

> If there is going to be a Main Hand weapon it is sadly going to be locked to a Elite Spec.

 

It's most likely going to be locked to an Elite Spec, but it is possible that they could add in new core weapons if they felt like it.

 

On Topic:

 

Core Engie could definitely do with a new MH weapon. A notable role to fill would be a MH Power weapon that can be paired with Shield as right now only Holo can run a Power weapon with Shield every other build has to use Pistol which isn't very good even for Condi builds let alone Power (Really it's only purpose is to allow you to use Pistol offhand for Blowtorch the one actually good skill in a P/P set up)

 

Mace is a popular suggestion for the choice. Given the way in which Tool Kit functions as a mace + shield combo. Not to mention various Mace skins that look like wrenches and tools and thus thematically are perfect for Engie and as yet unusable by them...

 

Dagger/Axe/Scepter could work, but are less intrinsicly thematic though you could try and mess with them enough to make them fit (Still, Engineers seem practical folk. To which icepick grip on daggers is not at all a practical way to utilize them...)

 

But you never know, maybe ANet could decide to make offhand weapons also usable in main hands allowing for MH Shield so that Engie could run Shield/Shield with Toolkit to triple wield shields and become a literal tank walking through a battlefield blowing stuff up B)

[draxynnic.3719]

Pistol not being good even for conditions is really an argument for pistol to be buffed.

 

But yeah... even with elite specialisations, I think there is a strong argument to giving an additional core weapon to a couple of professions, namely engineer and revenant. Otherwise we're just likely to keep seeing elite specialisation weapons that are trying to fill the same gap in the core profession because the elite just doesn't work properly without filling that gap.

[juno.1840]

Just make pistol and rifle better and problem solved.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"juno.1840" said:

> Just make pistol and rifle better and problem solved.

 

It'd certainly _help,_ although I'm not sure rifle really needs it - rifle is reasonably effective.

 

I think a melee weapon would still make a lot of sense, though. Core engi has always had the problem that you could often have all the ranged options you need out of kits, to the point where what you're using beneath it is somewhat redundant - something that maybe you pull out now and then to pop off a high-impact skill and then swap out of because your kits generally offer better spammable options. A melee weapon, on the other hand, would allow engineer to be played in a fashion where kits are the primary ranged weapon, but they can pull out the melee weapon as a suitable sidearm when pushed into melee.

 

Thus far, ArenaNet has 'solved' the issue by making every elite spec weapon melee... but that's going to get tiring if elite spec weapons end up becoming a constant string of filling the same gap in the core weapons again and again. Toss a melee weapon on core - ideally a one-handed weapon so it can be combined with shield, but I'm not picky - and the problem can then be solved not just for core engineer, but all future elite specialisations at once, which can now be free to have ranged weapons without making it so that the elite spec can't have a melee option without having to spend a utility skill slot on the tool kit or the bomb kit.

[wasss.1208]

> @"Samug.6512" said:

> Core?engi?needs?a?meele?weapon?

 

And ? fix ? the ? ranged ? ones.

[Taril.8619]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > @"juno.1840" said:

> > Just make pistol and rifle better and problem solved.

>

> It'd certainly _help,_ although I'm not sure rifle really needs it - rifle is reasonably effective.

>

> I think a melee weapon would still make a lot of sense, though. Core engi has always had the problem that you could often have all the ranged options you need out of kits, to the point where what you're using beneath it is somewhat redundant - something that maybe you pull out now and then to pop off a high-impact skill and then swap out of because your kits generally offer better spammable options. A melee weapon, on the other hand, would allow engineer to be played in a fashion where kits are the primary ranged weapon, but they can pull out the melee weapon as a suitable sidearm when pushed into melee.

>

> Thus far, ArenaNet has 'solved' the issue by making every elite spec weapon melee... but that's going to get tiring if elite spec weapons end up becoming a constant string of filling the same gap in the core weapons again and again. Toss a melee weapon on core - ideally a one-handed weapon so it can be combined with shield, but I'm not picky - and the problem can then be solved not just for core engineer, but all future elite specialisations at once, which can now be free to have ranged weapons without making it so that the elite spec can't have a melee option without having to spend a utility skill slot on the tool kit or the bomb kit.

 

I'm not sure the archetype of "Melee Weapon" is the one that's missing from Engie though.

 

Given that, Rifle is best utilized as a melee weapon due to the way Blunderbuss and Jump Shot gain maximum effectiveness from being up close (To get the highest scaling of damage/bleed on Blunderbuss and to hit with both the jump and landing of Jump Shot)

 

Pistol is in a similar boat, namely due to Blowtorch being the main reason to run MH Pistol as a damage focused build (Support builds like Heal Scrapper will also use Pistol MH but for Shield usage rather than actually caring about Pistol MH at all)

 

If anything, Engie as a whole lacks an actual **ranged** weapon. Even with kits there's no actual ranged weapons available for Engie, Grenade Kit is the closest but becomes inconsistent at range due to travel times. Every other kit has melee/short range (Bomb Kit is melee range, Tool Kit is melee range, Flamethrower is 425 range with a couple of 600 range skills) or is a purely supportive option (Elixir Gun and Mortar Kit don't really deal damage they're more about the effects of their skills such as the elixir benefits and combo fields)

 

Though, this isn't that huge a problem, given that in PvP/WvW projectile hate reduces the effectivness of many ranged weapons anyway and in PvE stacking in melee is the optimal strat anyway for boons and to get the effect of the Firearms traits.

 

Hence why I believe the most notable lack in Engie's weapons is the Power based 1 handed weapon to pair with Shield (Which could also arguably be paired with the lack of a true Power based offhand weapon though Burn is OP enough where Blowtorch is still somewhat decent in Power, especially with Might stacks). One could argue to simply buff Pistol to be good in Power builds, but such a option could easily break Condi builds in PvP by making the hybrid stat builds that are popular (I.e. Carrion) even more bursty.

[BnooMaGoo.5690]

Another choice in offhand would be fine with me too

[Junkpile.7439]

I would like to play some max damage grenadier build, but i don't like rifle and feels stupid use piston with power build. Synergy between piston and nade kit is kind of bad too. :s

[EdwinLi.1284]

> @"juno.1840" said:

> Just make pistol and rifle better and problem solved.

 

Someone a lot of us hoped may one day happen since pre-HoT days. They always had a issue of being outshined by Kits and usually only there for their stats for the kit's damage.

 

On topic:

 

To this day I am still surprised they never considered Mace as a Core Main Weapon for Engineer. I always felt it should have been a day 1 release thing by default because it would have gone far better with Shield than pistol to act as the Melee Tank Mace/Shield combo for Engineer. Not to mention Mace, in my opinion, would have fit as a default wrench smacking weapon skills since one-handed hammers are a common tool for Engineers both in crafting and killing things.

[BnooMaGoo.5690]

Mace as an offhand would work too, like a club or a blackjack

Could be a can of mace

 

We already have a welding mask, why not a blowtorch?

Close range

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"juno.1840" said:

> > > Just make pistol and rifle better and problem solved.

> >

> > It'd certainly _help,_ although I'm not sure rifle really needs it - rifle is reasonably effective.

> >

> > I think a melee weapon would still make a lot of sense, though. Core engi has always had the problem that you could often have all the ranged options you need out of kits, to the point where what you're using beneath it is somewhat redundant - something that maybe you pull out now and then to pop off a high-impact skill and then swap out of because your kits generally offer better spammable options. A melee weapon, on the other hand, would allow engineer to be played in a fashion where kits are the primary ranged weapon, but they can pull out the melee weapon as a suitable sidearm when pushed into melee.

> >

> > Thus far, ArenaNet has 'solved' the issue by making every elite spec weapon melee... but that's going to get tiring if elite spec weapons end up becoming a constant string of filling the same gap in the core weapons again and again. Toss a melee weapon on core - ideally a one-handed weapon so it can be combined with shield, but I'm not picky - and the problem can then be solved not just for core engineer, but all future elite specialisations at once, which can now be free to have ranged weapons without making it so that the elite spec can't have a melee option without having to spend a utility skill slot on the tool kit or the bomb kit.

>

> I'm not sure the archetype of "Melee Weapon" is the one that's missing from Engie though.

>

> Given that, Rifle is best utilized as a melee weapon due to the way Blunderbuss and Jump Shot gain maximum effectiveness from being up close (To get the highest scaling of damage/bleed on Blunderbuss and to hit with both the jump and landing of Jump Shot)

>

> Pistol is in a similar boat, namely due to Blowtorch being the main reason to run MH Pistol as a damage focused build (Support builds like Heal Scrapper will also use Pistol MH but for Shield usage rather than actually caring about Pistol MH at all)

>

> If anything, Engie as a whole lacks an actual **ranged** weapon. Even with kits there's no actual ranged weapons available for Engie, Grenade Kit is the closest but becomes inconsistent at range due to travel times. Every other kit has melee/short range (Bomb Kit is melee range, Tool Kit is melee range, Flamethrower is 425 range with a couple of 600 range skills) or is a purely supportive option (Elixir Gun and Mortar Kit don't really deal damage they're more about the effects of their skills such as the elixir benefits and combo fields)

>

> Though, this isn't that huge a problem, given that in PvP/WvW projectile hate reduces the effectivness of many ranged weapons anyway and in PvE stacking in melee is the optimal strat anyway for boons and to get the effect of the Firearms traits.

>

> Hence why I believe the most notable lack in Engie's weapons is the Power based 1 handed weapon to pair with Shield (Which could also arguably be paired with the lack of a true Power based offhand weapon though Burn is OP enough where Blowtorch is still somewhat decent in Power, especially with Might stacks). One could argue to simply buff Pistol to be good in Power builds, but such a option could easily break Condi builds in PvP by making the hybrid stat builds that are popular (I.e. Carrion) even more bursty.

 

Rifle and pistol/pistol are what I generally refer to as 'skirmishing' sets. They have cooldown skills that reward being in close, but they also have skills oriented towards opening a gap again, and their autoattack is intended for standoff use. The intended playstyle is one that involves closing in for a burst _and then backing off to a standoff position again_, rather than full melee.

 

Elixir gun, for all that you claim it's support (it's not, actually look at the coefficients, it probably outdoes pistol/pistol for hybrid builds if it wasn't for Blowtorch, and not too long ago it clearly outperformed pistol if you excluded Blowtorch) has a similar 'skirmishing' playstyle. Which is part of where my experience came from: back in the day when flamethrower and elixir gun had traits in common, I was running a build that used both, and I found while doing so that the weaponset I was using underneath was largely redundant because I already had everything but melee covered through those kits (can't remember what I normally had in the third slot, but I remember that I didn't really want it to be toolkit). What the build could have really used was a melee weapon beneath the kits, but that wasn't available (and still isn't on core). I think the least bad option I found was running pistol/shield so I had the extra defenses when I needed it.

 

Engineer, at the moment, does reasonably well at long range. Pistol/shield works fairly well at standoff poking... well, about as well as MH pistol works at anything these days. Rifle does decent damage just off Hip Shot and Overcharged Shot, and if it's not a situation where getting in close is too awkward, you can Jump Shot in, Blunderbuss, and Overcharged Shot out again. If we include kits, Elixir Gun is a more condi-oriented (but still with decent power coefficients on Glob Shot and Acid Bomb) equivalent of rifle in that respect, and while grenades and mortars may have long flight times, that's the price you pay for area attacks that are just as strong at maximum range as they are in-close.

 

It's true that they don't have a sniper-type weapon for rapidly downing a single enemy at long range, but that's not a capability every profession is expected to have - like guardian and thief, that's something that would be reasonable to delegate to an elite profession. Every profession, however, has a core melee weapon (dagger elementalist ranges vary by attunement, since swapping attunements is how dagger ele goes from melee to standoff mode, but dagger air is effectively melee despite having slightly greater reach than most melee attacks) except engineer, which can only get a melee weapon through spending a utility slot or an elite specialisation slot. So far, this has been swept under the rug through core engi being all but abandoned and all of the elite specialisations thus far having melee weapons, but that shouldn't continue indefinitely.

[Taril.8619]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> Rifle and pistol/pistol are what I generally refer to as 'skirmishing' sets. They have cooldown skills that reward being in close, but they also have skills oriented towards opening a gap again, and their autoattack is intended for standoff use. The intended playstyle is one that involves closing in for a burst _and then backing off to a standoff position again_, rather than full melee.

 

Except that their actual playstyle is one where it's optimal to stay in melee, because they don't have gap closers to get back into range to use their melee skills optimally.

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> Elixir gun, for all that you claim it's support it's not, actually look at the coefficients

 

I have and they're terrible and outperformed by Pistol (Which still sucks compared to actual damage weapons/kits like Grenade Kit).

 

Fragmentation Shot - 0.4 coefficient and 6 second bleed

Tranquilizer Round - 0.4 coefficient and 4 second bleed

 

The only advantage Tranq has is that Frag Shot is 0.266 coefficient in PvP/WvW

 

Poison Dart Volley - 2.0 coefficient and 5x 9 poison stacks

Glob Shot - 0.75 coefficient (Can bounce up to 3 times)

 

Again, the only advantage here is PDV has a 1.0 coefficient in PvP/WvW

 

Static Shot - 0.4 coefficient and 3x confusion for 5 seconds

Fumigate - 0.4 coefficient and 5x poison for 2 seconds

 

Blowtorch - 0.33-1.0 coefficient and 4x burning for 3-6 seconds

Acid Bomb - 0.85 coefficient

 

The advantage of Acid Bomb is dealing continuous damage if targets stay within its radius, but that's not very likely in PvP/WvW (Especially since Blowtorch in PvP/WvW gets changed to 2x Burning for 6-12 seconds to reduce its burst)

 

For "Hybrid" builds (AKA Condi builds) you're better off just swapping between Flamethrower and Grenade Kit than trying to use Elixir Gun or Pistol MH for damage and in PvP/WvW you might even want to skip out on even using Pistol OH and use either Shield for extra defence or Rifle for more damage (Since Blunderbuss deals up to 1.31 coefficient + 3x Bleed for 9 seconds and Leap Shot does 0.1 + 1.74 coefficient and 3x Vulnerability for 6s on each hit)

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> Engineer, at the moment, does reasonably well at long range. Pistol/shield works fairly well at standoff poking... well, about as well as MH pistol works at anything these days. Rifle does decent damage just off Hip Shot and Overcharged Shot

 

Simply auto attacking at range is not particularly good damage though, especially with Pistol and Rifle.

 

Pistol having 0.4 coefficient and 6s bleed in PvE and 0.266 coefficient and 6s bleed in PvP/WvW which is terrible especially in a meta that favours burst damage.

 

Rifle AA has a 0.65 coefficient in PvE and 0.44 coefficient in PvP/WvW while Overcharged Shot has a 1.0 coefficient in PvE and 0.01 coefficient in PvP/WvW.

 

Both are superceded by Grenade Kit AA which is 0.33 coefficient per grenade (Meaning up to 0.99 coefficient on its auto attack), to say nothing of its low cooldown Shrapnel Grenades (0.63 PvE and 0.567 PvP coefficients and 10s bleeding PER GRENADE) which dwarfs anything capable by Engie weapons.

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> It's true that they don't have a sniper-type weapon for rapidly downing a single enemy at long range, but that's not a capability every profession is expected to have - like guardian and thief

 

Every class has at least 1 weapon that can deal good ranged damage, aside from Engineer.

 

Guardian has Scepter, which is one of its highest DPS weapons and is used in meta PvE builds.

Thief has Pistol/Pistol which can push out some decent damage. Heck, even Shortbow isn't that bad (Albeit suffers from projectile speeds)

 

Sure, they only have 900 range but Engie doesn't have **ANY** weapon that deals reasonable damage at range given the lackluster performance of MH Pistol and Grenade Kit really only works at range in PvE vs static targets.

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

 

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Rifle and pistol/pistol are what I generally refer to as 'skirmishing' sets. They have cooldown skills that reward being in close, but they also have skills oriented towards opening a gap again, and their autoattack is intended for standoff use. The intended playstyle is one that involves closing in for a burst _and then backing off to a standoff position again_, rather than full melee.

>

> Except that their actual playstyle is one where it's optimal to stay in melee, because they don't have gap closers to get back into range to use their melee skills optimally.

 

What's Jump Shot, chopped liver? You've also got legs, and engineers have a fair amount of Swiftness, so running in and out is definitely a thing you can do even if it isn't as simple as 'use gap closer' and 'use gap opener'. Particularly since you're also going to have either immobilise or... well, _everything_ shield has to potentially use to open or close gaps.

 

Believe me, you can do it. In competitive modes, the enemy will be trying to keep you at their preferred range, but so what else is new? You can still pressure them at long range if you can't close or if the enemy is making it too hot to get in that close, and you can burst when you do have the opportunity to get in close. Skirmishing weapon. You might prefer to stay in close, but that doesn't mean it's a melee weapon, nor does it mean they're balanced as such (they obviously SHOULDN'T be, since even if you're not using it, the majority of their skills, including their autoattack, have fairly long range).

>

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Elixir gun, for all that you claim it's support it's not, actually look at the coefficients

>

> I have and they're terrible and outperformed by Pistol (Which still sucks compared to actual damage weapons/kits like Grenade Kit).

>

> Fragmentation Shot - 0.4 coefficient and 6 second bleed

> Tranquilizer Round - 0.4 coefficient and 4 second bleed

>

> The only advantage Tranq has is that Frag Shot is 0.266 coefficient in PvP/WvW

>

> Poison Dart Volley - 2.0 coefficient and 5x 9 poison stacks

> Glob Shot - 0.75 coefficient (Can bounce up to 3 times)

>

> Again, the only advantage here is PDV has a 1.0 coefficient in PvP/WvW

>

> Static Shot - 0.4 coefficient and 3x confusion for 5 seconds

> Fumigate - 0.4 coefficient and 5x poison for 2 seconds

>

> Blowtorch - 0.33-1.0 coefficient and 4x burning for 3-6 seconds

> Acid Bomb - 0.85 coefficient

>

> The advantage of Acid Bomb is dealing continuous damage if targets stay within its radius, but that's not very likely in PvP/WvW (Especially since Blowtorch in PvP/WvW gets changed to 2x Burning for 6-12 seconds to reduce its burst)

 

Yeah, I'll admit I'm used to Fragmentation Shot being worse than it currently is - it's snuck up a bit through lots of small buffs. Even then, though, Tranquiliser Dart also maintains weakness. Doesn't contribute to damage, I know (at least not directly), but it's pretty close to the same damage output with a bonus effect. To be fair, Fragmentation Shot also still has a bit of an AoE to it.

 

Regarding the others... it's probably more fair to compare Glob Shot to Static Shot and Poison Dart Volley to Fumigate, since those skills have similar purposes.

 

Glob Shot can actually do a surprising amount of damage, because it works similar to Mirror Blade: it can bounce from the enemy to the engineer and back (and then back to the engineer, but that doesn't trigger extra damage). Static Shot can theoretically do more damage per shot in an ideal situation, but can also just do a single packet, and has a longer recharge. Both inflict a debilitating condition - in practice, though, I find cripple to generally be more useful than blind.

 

Poison Dart Volley... that has changed a bit since I last used it. It's now essentially a Repeater with poison, instead of spraying the darts in a cone. So it'll do more damage, but it's single-target. While Fumigate does less damage, but applies it to up to 5 enemies in a 600 range cone. So those two aren't as directly comparable as I thought, but you know what this means? It means we're both wrong! Core engineer DOES have a non-kit weapon optimised for firing away at long range! Your offhand is going to be either optimised for close range or oriented towards defence rather than DPS, which is less than ideal, but it's not uncommon for a ranged weaponset to have a couple of skills that are oriented more to utility or to use at closer ranges (example: mesmer greatsword 2 and 5).

 

When it comes to Acid Bomb... really? That's the hill you're going to die on? PvE enemies usually don't dodge, and some literally _can't._ In Conquest, it's a suitable means of pressuring a point without being on point yourself... particularly since it doesn't have a big visible tell like some other skills, so the enemy might not realise why the point is hurting so much.

>

> For "Hybrid" builds (AKA Condi builds) you're better off just swapping between Flamethrower and Grenade Kit than trying to use Elixir Gun or Pistol MH for damage and in PvP/WvW you might even want to skip out on even using Pistol OH and use either Shield for extra defence or Rifle for more damage (Since Blunderbuss deals up to 1.31 coefficient + 3x Bleed for 9 seconds and Leap Shot does 0.1 + 1.74 coefficient and 3x Vulnerability for 6s on each hit)

>

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Engineer, at the moment, does reasonably well at long range. Pistol/shield works fairly well at standoff poking... well, about as well as MH pistol works at anything these days. Rifle does decent damage just off Hip Shot and Overcharged Shot

>

> Simply auto attacking at range is not particularly good damage though, especially with Pistol and Rifle.

>

> Pistol having 0.4 coefficient and 6s bleed in PvE and 0.266 coefficient and 6s bleed in PvP/WvW which is terrible especially in a meta that favours burst damage.

 

We kinda just went through MH pistol. With the changes to Poison Dart Volley, every skill on MH pistol is just as effective at 900 range as it is at melee range. So this sounds like a 'pistol needs to be better' issue rather than an 'engineer doesn't have a weapon that does this' issue.

>

> Rifle AA has a 0.65 coefficient in PvE and 0.44 coefficient in PvP/WvW while Overcharged Shot has a 1.0 coefficient in PvE and 0.01 coefficient in PvP/WvW.

 

Orb of Wrath, which you cite for guardian, has a lower 0.6 coefficient in PvE and almost the same in competitive (0.444), a slower projectile speed, shorter range, and doesn't pierce. Rifle AA is a pretty serviceable autoattack.

 

The competitive damage of Overcharged Shot has been gutted, but after such a big balance shakeup, I wouldn't necessarily consider the current balance state of rifle in competitive to be something that's going to remain where it is indefinitely. Sure, it's not going to pull off as much long-range damage as, say, ranger longbow. But that's not what it's designed to do. It's designed as a skirmishing weapon with a competitive long-range autoattack. And it achieves that.

>

> Both are superceded by Grenade Kit AA which is 0.33 coefficient per grenade (Meaning up to 0.99 coefficient on its auto attack), to say nothing of its low cooldown Shrapnel Grenades (0.63 PvE and 0.567 PvP coefficients and 10s bleeding PER GRENADE) which dwarfs anything capable by Engie weapons.

>

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > It's true that they don't have a sniper-type weapon for rapidly downing a single enemy at long range, but that's not a capability every profession is expected to have - like guardian and thief

>

> Every class has at least 1 weapon that can deal good ranged damage, aside from Engineer.

>

> Guardian has Scepter, which is one of its highest DPS weapons and is used in meta PvE builds.

> Thief has Pistol/Pistol which can push out some decent damage. Heck, even Shortbow isn't that bad (Albeit suffers from projectile speeds)

>

> Sure, they only have 900 range but Engie doesn't have **ANY** weapon that deals reasonable damage at range given the lackluster performance of MH Pistol and Grenade Kit really only works at range in PvE vs static targets.

>

You complain about "Grenade Kit only works at range in PvE versus static targets", but hold up guardian scepter as being a good long-range attack. Orb of Wrath isn't at the point where it's barely above running speed without Swiftness any more, but there's still a noticeable bunching if you use Orb of Wrath while running forwards. I'm not privy to the exact velocities, but I'd guesstimate about the same speed as mortars? 'Nades are pretty slow without Grenadier, but I think they work out to be a little bit faster with the trait, and both have the advantage that you don't need a direct hit to deal damage.

 

But on consideration of the 'new' (yeah, I know, it was a little over a year ago) behaviour of Poison Dart Volley... this really seems like a "there's a weapon that is already intended to do this, it just needs to be better" problem. But there is no core melee weapon. It's probably not coincidence that both of the elite specs have a melee weapon.

[Taril.8619]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> What's Jump Shot, chopped liver?

 

Oh yes, use Jump Shot so you can get close enough to use Jump Shot to its highest efficiency.

 

I see no issue in that plan.

 

/s

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> You've also got legs, and engineers have a fair amount of Swiftness

 

In this day and age, so does everyone.

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> Particularly since you're also going to have either immobilise or... well, _everything_ shield has to potentially use to open or close gaps.

 

Oh sorry, I forgot. Just SWITCH WEAPON SETS to x/Shield on Engineer so you can gap close to use your Rifle that deals all of its damage up close as a skirmishing weapon...

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> You might prefer to stay in close, but that doesn't mean it's a melee weapon, nor does it mean they're balanced as such (they obviously SHOULDN'T be, since even if you're not using it, the majority of their skills, including their autoattack, have fairly long range).

 

By this logic Thiefs D/P set up is a ranged set up because "A majority of their skills have fairly long range"

 

This also bypasses the nature of the fact that a weapon with 1500 range, can still be used in melee range. Yet a melee weapon, cannot be used at longer ranges. Which imparts a higher need for classes to have specifically a ranged weapon as opposed to needing a "Melee" one.

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> When it comes to Acid Bomb... really? That's the hill you're going to die on? PvE enemies usually don't dodge, and some literally _can't._

 

Yes, and 1 skill dealing decent damage out of a total of 5 skills, does not make a support weapon a DPS weapon. If it was, then we could say Necro's staff is a DPS weapon because skill 4 has a decent coefficient on it.

 

Meanwhile, it's the same number of good skills as P/P on Engineer and doesn't really stop it from being a support weapon (Unless all those "Plebs" at Snow Crows are seriously messing up their DPS by using Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit instead of the obviously good DPS kit, Elixir Gun)

 

We'll also skip over the fact than in search of a **Ranged** weapon or kit we're now talking about a melee range skill on Elixir Gun...

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> Orb of Wrath, which you cite for guardian, has a lower 0.6 coefficient in PvE and almost the same in competitive (0.444), a slower projectile speed, shorter range, and doesn't pierce. Rifle AA is a pretty serviceable autoattack.

 

Guardian scepter has a ranged low cooldown skill that deals a majority of Scepter's damage in Symbol of Punishment. With a coefficient of 0.2 + 0.5 PvE 0.33 + 0.45 PvP/WvW and up to 8 strikes over its duration (Total of 4.2 PvE and 3.93 PvP/WvW) though less useful in PvP/WvW due to enemies ability to move out of it (Though you do have Chains of Light to help keep them inside it). However, this can also be paired with Focus which also brings Ray of Judgment for 2.97 PvE and 1.89 PvP coefficient. Not to mention all of the Virtue of Justice procs that these multi-hit skills will cause for additional damage.

 

Standing around flinging auto attacks, is not a particularly good way of dealing damage. Outside of Necro shroud because its skills are DPS losses (Besides Tainted Shackles and Soul Spiral)

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> It's probably not coincidence that both of the elite specs have a melee weapon.

 

Given it's ANet, it probably is. I mean, Holosmith getting a sword seems to be inspired mostly because it's a good way to implement a "Lightsaber" skin in the game.

 

Either that, or they're just playing around the fact that Firearms traits currently want power based weapons to be used in melee range anyway.

[wasss.1208]

I like the guardian scepter - engineer rifle comparison, as both are horrible from range. Majority of their damage can be avoided with simple WASD skill and are generally unreliable from range, both has a good damaging skill, that has to be set up. Rifle has more utility, but that is expected, since it has 5 skills.

 

And honestly, as far as ranged weapons go, if you want reliable hits on engi, you have to use Elixir Gun. It is the only weapon/kit, that has good tracking, and projectile velocity. Every other weapon or kit is either melee, or unreliable, like Rifle, Grenade Kit, Mortar Kit, or even Pistol (the best damaging skill on pistol is 4, which is only 2 stacks of burn for 6-12 seconds, and it can miss even in point-blank range.)

 

And after the offtopicing, to the original post: I find the lack of power main hand weapon really disturbing, since if you want to take a defensive approach and use shield, you are forced to pick pistol, which is awful in general, especially in a power build.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > What's Jump Shot, chopped liver?

>

> Oh yes, use Jump Shot so you can get close enough to use Jump Shot to its highest efficiency.

>

> I see no issue in that plan.

>

> /s

 

Close to 90% of the damage from Jump Shot comes in the landing, so no, I don't think this is a critical issue. Personally, I'd consider using it purely as a melee skill means that you're completely wasting its potential as a mobility skill.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > You've also got legs, and engineers have a fair amount of Swiftness

>

> In this day and age, so does everyone.

 

Not really, although a lot of builds do. Point being that while gap-closers and gap-openers help, they're not required to have mobility, including getting in and out of melee range. Obviously, it's not perfect, but nothing ever is. What you've got, though, is an ability to burst in close, but you don't need to remain at close range to maintain pressure between bursts.

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Particularly since you're also going to have either immobilise or... well, _everything_ shield has to potentially use to open or close gaps.

>

> Oh sorry, I forgot. Just SWITCH WEAPON SETS to x/Shield on Engineer so you can gap close to use your Rifle that deals all of its damage up close as a skirmishing weapon...

 

And here I thought it was clear from the context that my point was that _every_ weapon set had something that helped to either provide mobility, limit the enemy's mobility, or push them around. Rifle has 3/5 skills doing this - Net Shot to immobilise, Overcharged Shot for opening gaps, and Jump Shot for general mobility.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > You might prefer to stay in close, but that doesn't mean it's a melee weapon, nor does it mean they're balanced as such (they obviously SHOULDN'T be, since even if you're not using it, the majority of their skills, including their autoattack, have fairly long range).

>

> By this logic Thiefs D/P set up is a ranged set up because "A majority of their skills have fairly long range"

 

False equivalence and you know it. Thief D/P doesn't have a ranged autoattack, which I specifically included in my logic.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> This also bypasses the nature of the fact that a weapon with 1500 range, can still be used in melee range. Yet a melee weapon, cannot be used at longer ranges. Which imparts a higher need for classes to have specifically a ranged weapon as opposed to needing a "Melee" one.

 

Generally speaking, though, there's a price for that range. Long-range weapons usually sacrifice damage, defences, or other mobility for the sake of that range. For all your claims that rifle is apparently a melee weapon, if you actually want to melee and have a kit that provides for range, you're much better off pulling a dedicated melee weapon.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > When it comes to Acid Bomb... really? That's the hill you're going to die on? PvE enemies usually don't dodge, and some literally _can't._

>

> Yes, and 1 skill dealing decent damage out of a total of 5 skills, does not make a support weapon a DPS weapon. If it was, then we could say Necro's staff is a DPS weapon because skill 4 has a decent coefficient on it.

>

> Meanwhile, it's the same number of good skills as P/P on Engineer and doesn't really stop it from being a support weapon (Unless all those "Plebs" at Snow Crows are seriously messing up their DPS by using Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit instead of the obviously good DPS kit, Elixir Gun)

>

> We'll also skip over the fact than in search of a **Ranged** weapon or kit we're now talking about a melee range skill on Elixir Gun...

 

Funnily enough, I've seen people get taken down with Glob Shot as part of a spike, which is a part of my analysis you seem to have left out of the quote.

 

Obviously, it's not going to have as much DPS as, say, grenades, because it DOES have a support function as well. But it's decent.

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > Orb of Wrath, which you cite for guardian, has a lower 0.6 coefficient in PvE and almost the same in competitive (0.444), a slower projectile speed, shorter range, and doesn't pierce. Rifle AA is a pretty serviceable autoattack.

>

> Guardian scepter has a ranged low cooldown skill that deals a majority of Scepter's damage in Symbol of Punishment. With a coefficient of 0.2 + 0.5 PvE 0.33 + 0.45 PvP/WvW and up to 8 strikes over its duration (Total of 4.2 PvE and 3.93 PvP/WvW) though less useful in PvP/WvW due to enemies ability to move out of it (Though you do have Chains of Light to help keep them inside it). However, this can also be paired with Focus which also brings Ray of Judgment for 2.97 PvE and 1.89 PvP coefficient. Not to mention all of the Virtue of Justice procs that these multi-hit skills will cause for additional damage.

 

Except that apparently Acid Bomb doesn't count because, ding, things can move out of it! (Despite Elixir Gun having a cripple, and engineer having plenty of access to immobilise)

 

Yeah, scepter/focus is overall a better standoff weapon set than rifle - because apart from the low projectile speed, it is intended more as a standoff set. You'll note that apart from a fairly short-duration immobilise, scepter/focus has _no_ skills that assist in kiting or even in gapclosing. Mostly because guardian is intended to respond to being engaged in melee by *drumroll* _switching to a melee weapon._

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Standing around flinging auto attacks, is not a particularly good way of dealing damage. Outside of Necro shroud because its skills are DPS losses (Besides Tainted Shackles and Soul Spiral)

 

For spiking? No. But you can maintain pressure with them, and engineer rifle can maintain this pressure from as far as 1200 range. This means that, for instance, you don't need to remain on point (which is likely where a lot of the AoE is landing) to keep pressuring an enemy between spikes, or that you can continue dealing damage to an enemy that is out of melee reach.

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > It's probably not coincidence that both of the elite specs have a melee weapon.

>

> Given it's ANet, it probably is. I mean, Holosmith getting a sword seems to be inspired mostly because it's a good way to implement a "Lightsaber" skin in the game.

>

> Either that, or they're just playing around the fact that Firearms traits currently want power based weapons to be used in melee range anyway.

 

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but ArenaNet _does_ pay attention to what people are asking for when it comes to new content. As it happened, one of the most common requests before HoT was a melee weapon for engineer, because that was the gap.

 

And as was observed in my previous post, which you appear to have avoided acknowledging, MH pistol appears to have been rejigged into the long-range-oriented weapon you're asking for with the changed behaviour of Poison Dart Volley. So the weapon you're asking for is there. On core. It just needs more buffs to become properly viable in the role.