AOE

[Smoosh.2718]

AoE in this game, removes skill.

 

AoE does not require someone to think when attacking.

 

PvP was clearly not designed for the AoE that is currently in the game.

 

AoE should not do high damage vs 1 or many players.

 

AoE Covers too much of an area in PvP, some cover the entire node.

 

AoE is too common, the spammable nature of it is actually sickening.

 

AoE is killing the PvP enjoyment, seriously who has died to AoE fields and thought.. wow i got outplayed there.

 

 

 

My Two biggest gripes with PvP is Condition damage and AoE. Both are spammable deal high damage and remove ones ability to need skill to do well.

 

Now I know you condition damage lovers will come into the chat and state 'But you can clense.. or just dodge' Just clense what? the first application of the 24 conditions that get spammed on you? or dodge the AoE that is pulsing burning all of your dodges? Or do you run off point and not even contest the capture.

 

 

AoE skills need a huge reduction on the damage they do to targets inside of it, the radius reduced to allow players to not be totally cut off from counterplay. Currently the spammable AoE and Condi meta is vile, gone are the smart counter play fights where you bait out dodges, gone are the fun 1v1 fights where it was a test of skill. Now all it is, is who can slam their keys the most.

 

If a class can stand still spouting AoE's not dodge and still kill multiple foes something is seriously wrong with the balance.

 

 

The current Condi / AoE spam meta which has been going on for quite some time now is killing the game mode!

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[Sigmoid.7082]

Can someone really explain why we are in a co do some spam meta? I am very I retested to know the inner worming of exactly why this is the case ...

[aelska.4609]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> Can someone really explain why we are in a co do some spam meta? I am very I retested to know the inner worming of exactly why this is the case ...

 

Easy. Spammed random balance patches lead us here.

Have you ever read a balance patch note entirely and told yourself "Wow these changes are so consistent and they definitely are giving a soul to my class,. That pushes me forward to master it." ?

Me neither.

 

[Shiyo.3578]

AOE spam is a gigantic issue whether or not "top" players want to admit to it or not. It stops being an issue once you get into plat1 and start playing with people using meta builds 100% of the time. However, in unranked and at lower skill ranks you can win every fight in PvP by picking an AOE spam condi build(or symbol guardian) and just mashing AOE on the node. It's completely skilless, frustrating, and downright unfun to fight. When I want to carry myself to a proper rating, I hop on my base symbol guardian and mash symbols on the node to win any 1v1 and hold it for the entire match. Once I get into proper ratings, I swap to my actual main class.

 

AOE spam is why this games PvP shrinks, and something ABSOLUTELY needs to be done about it for the sake of having growth in the player base. New players are just as important as veterans and should not be completely neglected like this.

 

Here's a great example, of some big name streamer who wanted to PvP in GW2 and play GW2 but AoE spam made him just say "nah I'm done" after a while.

https://www.twitch.tv/summit1g/clip/ObeseOilyToadTheRinger

 

**AOE CONDI(and symbol) SPAM IS AN ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED FOR GW2'S PVP SCENE TO GROW.**

[Avatar.3568]

Guys I tell You know some Little secrets.

AoE is in higher tier games not working because....

 

1. If enemy spams his aoe, wait 10 seconds outside of the aoe, that guy has nothing left and dies immidietly, even if you give up the node for that time it's worth, because you get a kill +5 you will get the node and the enemy has 15 seconds respawn time + the time he needs to walk to come back to the action.

2. Wells and traps are taking place for mostly more usefull utilities, if a necro goes full wells he has no escape with a worm or with spectral wall that means he is easy meat, if a ranger goes traps you will see it, he gets invisible at this point where he is setting the traps, dodge over the point where the traps are lokated and run away and wait 5 seconds, you will get Maybe 1 stack of bleed and 2 stacks poison, the traps are used, ranger is helpless. If you face a guard with traps dodge in and block, all the dmg is getting blocked and guard has no utility left, if you have no blocks stay on range, dodge his Spear and wait until he comes to you.

3. Scourge, Firebrand and symbols

These 3 might be a Lil bit more tricky, if you can't fight them in 1vs1 leave the fight go somewhere else and let him cap, while he is capping your team is 5vs4 against the rest of the map, you can let them snowball and kill that guy in a 2vs1, in team fights focus scourge, they are weak against big Power spikes, firebrands too (but they have a lot of blocks) core guards are pretty tanky and should not be focused only if they play greatsword and are on high dps

4. Renegades you need hard dmg spike, they can't resustain in a 2vs1, push their legends away, if yiu are good in setting up dmg they can't even survive a 1vs1

 

Edit, aoes are not that problem in high tier because player learn to avoid them

Aka don't stand in the big dmg field

[Xca.9721]

The last time I checked we are still in a power meta, I don´t know where this condi meta bias is coming from all the time

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Xca.9721" said:

> The last time I checked we are still in a power meta, I don´t know where this condi meta bias is coming from all the time

 

Yes, at the higher ratings(plat+). Those aren't the only games and players that matter, though. Condi/symbol AOE spam is an issue at lower ratings and makes this game lose new players constantly. It's very harmful to the future of the game and thus should be given more attention by the PvP developers if they want to see this game grow.

[Avatar.3568]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Xca.9721" said:

> > The last time I checked we are still in a power meta, I don´t know where this condi meta bias is coming from all the time

>

> Yes, at the higher ratings(plat+). Those aren't the only games and players that matter, though. Condi/symbol AOE spam is an issue at lower ratings and makes this game lose new players constantly. It's very harmful to the future of the game.

 

It feels like you don't want to listen how to play against stuff

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Avatar.3568" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"Xca.9721" said:

> > > The last time I checked we are still in a power meta, I don´t know where this condi meta bias is coming from all the time

> >

> > Yes, at the higher ratings(plat+). Those aren't the only games and players that matter, though. Condi/symbol AOE spam is an issue at lower ratings and makes this game lose new players constantly. It's very harmful to the future of the game.

>

> It feels like you don't want to listen how to play against stuff

 

I know this is hard to understand, but I am thinking of the new players and lesser skilled players and NOT myself. I know how to fight these builds, and I am in fact not a low rating player losing to these builds.

 

A healthy game needs to be fun enough and enjoyable enough to grab the attention of new players to turn them into veterans. The current AOE condi/symbol spam system does the exact opposite. As I posted earlier, a "Big" streamer literally quit the game over it - and I'm 100% confident he isn't the first to quit for this very reason.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"aelska.4609" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > Can someone really explain why we are in a co do some spam meta? I am very I retested to know the inner worming of exactly why this is the case ...

>

> Easy. Spammed random balance patches lead us here.

> Have you ever read a balance patch note entirely and told yourself "Wow these changes are so consistent and they definitely are giving a soul to my class,. That pushes me forward to master it." ?

> Me neither.

>

 

Not the answer I was looking for. I wasn't an explanation of why the meta is Condi or aoe. A breakdown of the classes and builds in it.

[aelska.4609]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"aelska.4609" said:

> > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > Can someone really explain why we are in a co do some spam meta? I am very I retested to know the inner worming of exactly why this is the case ...

> >

> > Easy. Spammed random balance patches lead us here.

> > Have you ever read a balance patch note entirely and told yourself "Wow these changes are so consistent and they definitely are giving a soul to my class,. That pushes me forward to master it." ?

> > Me neither.

> >

>

> Not the answer I was looking for. I wasn't an explanation of why the meta is Condi or aoe. A breakdown of the classes and builds in it.

 

I'll nuance more with a bit less trolling :) In my opinion it's wrong to say meta is condi or AoE. If you look the meta builds from godsofpvp, you will find equally as many builds playing AoE as single targets, or power and condi.

 

However, what we can agree on (as the OP of this post), is that it is not fun to fight against. You will see your opponent comfortably sitting inside his nodes in the middle of AoEs, and all you will be able to do is wait for them to disappear.

In 1v1 it is still manageable. In 2v2 (or more), you can be sure there will always be AoEs on the floor and you'll be forced to walk on it. With all the visual clutter, you might not even distinguish what AoE you are stepping on, and that's a problem. If you are playing a AoE class, the best way to win a teamfight is not to hold your AoE for the best moment, but just spam it over and over again.

 

There was a time where AoE were so little present that even in WvW you could differentiate what was a necromancer well from a static field; and could react accordingly (pop stab or not ?). This time is long gone, and now all you see is a random red circle that you don't care about, because there will always be one below you.

 

The condition problem is an other one, and my main reproaches would be:

1. 3 of them (bleeding/burning/torment) do the same things, which is boring.

2. Chilled is just a glorified version of cripple (more powerful + messes up cooldowns), which is boring.

3. Weakness is now overly present for a total RNG-power killer condtion

4. Fear is now the only CC that deals insane amount of damage (when traited by necro), with a duration scaling up with a stat.

5. There is no differentiation between "damage conditions" and "cc conditions" when cleansing. So if you are chilled and have 10stacks of burn and use a cleanse, you have 50% chance of dying the next second.

6. Like everything else in the game, their application is so frequent that it just feels like spamming conditions vs spamming cleansings.

7. Condibuilds feel more tanky to fight against than power builds.

 

An other way to see if something is healthy to the game is by asking yourself: if a pro player (or a group of) faces an inexperienced player (or a group of) while playing the same build, would you be able to recognize the pro player directly ? If the answer is no, then something is wrong.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"aelska.4609" condition cleansing works in a way of last in, first out.

there is NO rng involved, this is way some condi bursts dont output maximing dmg and in turn apply cover conditions at the end, it adds another layer of depth to the game, to understand how to apply conditions, cover them AND know how often and how much a class cleanses

[aelska.4609]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"aelska.4609" condition cleansing works in a way of last in, first out.

> there is NO rng involved, this is way some condi bursts dont output maximing dmg and in turn apply cover conditions at the end, it adds another layer of depth to the game, to understand how to apply conditions, cover them AND know how often and how much a class cleanses

 

Considering how often these applications are applied, and how many skills apply different conditions at once, from a human PoV that is RNG. Frequently checking the condition bar and remembering the order of application of 12 conditions that not only can appear and disappear but also stack; in order to precisely know how many cleanses are required to cleanse that little 10 burning stacks, is beyond human capabilities. It does not matter if "de facto" it isn't RNG, at the human scale it is.

[DonNee.5128]

> @"Avatar.3568" said:

> Guys I tell You know some Little secrets.

> AoE is in higher tier games not working because....

>

> 1. If enemy spams his aoe, wait 10 seconds outside of the aoe, that guy has nothing left and dies immidietly, even if you give up the node for that time it's worth, because you get a kill +5 you will get the node and the enemy has 15 seconds respawn time + the time he needs to walk to come back to the action.

> 2. Wells and traps are taking place for mostly more usefull utilities, if a necro goes full wells he has no escape with a worm or with spectral wall that means he is easy meat, if a ranger goes traps you will see it, he gets invisible at this point where he is setting the traps, dodge over the point where the traps are lokated and run away and wait 5 seconds, you will get Maybe 1 stack of bleed and 2 stacks poison, the traps are used, ranger is helpless. If you face a guard with traps dodge in and block, all the dmg is getting blocked and guard has no utility left, if you have no blocks stay on range, dodge his Spear and wait until he comes to you.

> 3. Scourge, Firebrand and symbols

> These 3 might be a Lil bit more tricky, if you can't fight them in 1vs1 leave the fight go somewhere else and let him cap, while he is capping your team is 5vs4 against the rest of the map, you can let them snowball and kill that guy in a 2vs1, in team fights focus scourge, they are weak against big Power spikes, firebrands too (but they have a lot of blocks) core guards are pretty tanky and should not be focused only if they play greatsword and are on high dps

> 4. Renegades you need hard dmg spike, they can't resustain in a 2vs1, push their legends away, if yiu are good in setting up dmg they can't even survive a 1vs1

>

> Edit, aoes are not that problem in high tier because player learn to avoid them

> Aka don't stand in the big dmg field

 

ah yes, all these symbol spammers and scrappers high on the leaderboard are just extremely skilled - after all it doesn't work for the mediocre right

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"aelska.4609" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"aelska.4609" condition cleansing works in a way of last in, first out.

> > there is NO rng involved, this is way some condi bursts dont output maximing dmg and in turn apply cover conditions at the end, it adds another layer of depth to the game, to understand how to apply conditions, cover them AND know how often and how much a class cleanses

>

> Considering how often these applications are applied, and how many skills apply different conditions at once, from a human PoV that is RNG. Frequently checking the condition bar and remembering the order of application of 12 conditions that not only can appear and disappear but also stack; in order to precisely know how many cleanses are required to cleanse that little 10 burning stacks, is beyond human capabilities. It does not matter if "de facto" it isn't RNG, at the human scale it is.

 

than I have ascended above humanity I guess.

[Smoosh.2718]

If we want PvP to die, let the AoE and condi spam meta be a thing. I can see this being a huge problem for new PvP players.. who would want to stick around with this mess going on? Evidently a lot of people dont want it hense why the PvP numbers have dropped.

 

PvP back in the dated years of 2012 and 2013 were fun. Why? You did not have this Condi and AoE spam fest. You could outplay your foe, you would animation cancel to trick them into a dodge, this just isnt there anymore due to the high uptime on easy to land skills.

 

Why on earth people defend the existance of low skill easy to land skills which punish new players heavily I do not know.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"aelska.4609" said:

> 4. Fear is now the only CC that deals insane amount of damage (when traited by necro), with a duration scaling up with a stat.

 

**Cough! Cough!** _Lightning rod_, _Stoic demeanor_. Let's be honest, _Lightning Rod_ will instantly do a bot more than 2 _terror_ tics worth of damage whatever disabling effect you use (if you deal a critical hit). _Stoic demeanor_ will apply both burn and slow whatever disabling effect you use. _Terror_ only apply damage on fear and if you remove fear with cleanse or stunbreak the damage will be removed while you can also take no damage thanks to resistance.

 

NB.: A terror necro will make use of _fear of death_ for it's duration not a "stat". Let's see the bright side of things, at least when feared your character actually try to flee from the necromancer

 

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"aelska.4609" said:

> The condition problem is an other one, and my main reproaches would be:

> 1. 3 of them (bleeding/burning/torment) do the same things, which is boring.

If you're not going to appreciate why they are different of course they seem the same. Boring is also subjective.

> 2. Chilled is just a glorified version of cripple (more powerful + messes up cooldowns), which is boring.

See above.

> 3. Weakness is now overly present for a total RNG-power killer condtion

Could use some standardisation but that's about it

> 4. Fear is now the only CC that deals insane amount of damage (when traited by necro), with a duration scaling up with a stat.

Its not the only one and the damage isn't really insane. Also if you're going to include traits....plus expertise is hard to come by.

> 5. There is no differentiation between "damage conditions" and "cc conditions" when cleansing. So if you are chilled and have 10stacks of burn and use a cleanse, you have 50% chance of dying the next second.

Well besides the LIFO conditions are typed, its just most condition removal is untyped. You've got some skills that specifically remove one type or the other.

> 6. Like everything else in the game, their application is so frequent that it just feels like spamming conditions vs spamming cleansings.

Don't see how its any different to power damage. The entire mode is just damage in vs mitigation.

> 7. Condibuilds feel more tanky to fight against than power builds.

This is subjective

 

> An other way to see if something is healthy to the game is by asking yourself: if a pro player (or a group of) faces an inexperienced player (or a group of) while playing the same build, would you be able to recognize the pro player directly ? If the answer is no, then something is wrong.

In general most people who play wouldn't be able to understand how or why there is a skill gap or that its even happening. Even with things people consider perfectly fine.

 

 

Also according to this forum we have been in a condi meta for years despite that not being remotely the case.

 

 

[Vancho.8750]

I think the issue is that the counter to sitting in your AoE are range(but one or two of the popular circle shitters counter that) and pulls but there aren't that many accessible yoinks in the game that can be gotten without encountering issues in your build or even in some cases having a pull at all in some classes, the only professions that don't have that much issue with this are Reaper(with GS and Spectral grasp, both come with their +- ) and DH has it embedded in the elite and from what i hear these both are quite meta, maybe partly cause of this.