Weapon Tweak Ideas (Revamped)

[Taril.8619]

Following on from previous threads, taking into account feedback, I have a new set of suggestions for tweaks to Thief weapons:

 

**Backstab**

Damage increased by 20% on foes below 25% life.

_Reason:_ Heartseeker ends up outperforming Backstab at sub 25% life, this boost should help maintain Backstab weaving as part of optimal damage rotation, while minimizing impact on PvP/WvW due to the low life requirement reducing the effect of an increase in damage (I.e. The damage increase will do little to nothing on actually killing a target outside maybe some extreme bunker build with Prot and high health)

 

**Death Blossom**

Skill no longer causes you to move (You maintain normal movement capabilities, sans jumping)

Now deals 4 hits over its duration for the same total power damage, but one more stack of bleeding (Each individual hit now has a coefficient of 0.1575 instead of 0.21)

_Reason:_ Death Blossom's movement can make it inconsistent as an actual attack, especially when combined with the likes of Swiftness, Quickness or Superspeed which can affect the distance you travel and thus impact the number of hits you land on a target. The increased number of hits should help it do more condition damage with the extra stack of bleeding per usage.

 

**Dancing Dagger**

Now has a flip skill **Shadow Dance** which costs 3 initiative and shadowsteps to the target you cast Dancing Dagger on. It is available for 3 seconds after landing Dancing Dagger.

_Reason:_ D/D has little mobility, this will add some needed mobility into the weapon set. S/D should not be impacted much by this change due to already having good mobility with Infiltrator's Strike. It can be noted that this might cause P/D to be too strong by adding additional mobility to the kit, though hopefully the high initiative cost of utilizing this skill will keep it in line (As it costs a total of 6 initiative to use Dancing Dagger and Shadow Dance)

 

**Infiltrator's Strike/Infiltrator's Return**

New functionality added: Holding down the skill button while casting Infiltrator's Return, will instead cast a new Infiltrator's Strike from the current location (Setting down a new marker for Infiltrator's Return)

_Reason:_ Added flexibility to the usage of the skill by allowing you to bypass the 15s timer of IR if you wish.

 

**Flanking Strike**

Now returns 2 initiative (1 initiative in PvP/WvW) upon landing the attack.

_Reason:_ Flanking Strike + Larcenous Strike has poor damage per initiative compared to other Thief skills averaging a coefficient of 0.45 per initiative in PvE and 0.34 per initiative in PvP versus boonless targets compared to most other skills average of ~0.6-0.7 coefficient per initiative in PvE and 0.4-0.5 coefficient per initiative in PvP. A reduction in overall initiative cost will help and the mechanic of needing to land the attack prevents evade spamming becoming stronger in PvP.

 

**Pistol Whip**

Split into 2 skills in the form of a flip skill.

First attack is **Pistol Whip** which costs 3 initative (4 in PvP/WvW) and strikes with the pistol stunning the target. Cast time is reduced to 0.5s.

Second attack is **Fencer's Flurry** which costs 2 initative and performs the sword strikes and evades for the duration. Cast time is reduced to 0.75s.

_Reason:_ Increased flexibility in using the skill, allowing the stun and the damage to be used at separate times to exploit when the stun lands or you can save your initiative if you don't find an opening to stand and do the strikes. In addition, provides additional synergy with Deadeye by now increasing the ability to stack Malice by using 2 skills.

 

**Cluster Bomb**

No longer a flip skill.

Now causes the normal bomb to create the small bombs after detonating covering the same area with the 4 smaller bombs in a way where targets in the middle will be hit by all 5 explosions.

Damage coefficients reduced accordingly: Main bomb coefficient reduced to 1.2 PvE (0.7 PvP/WvW) and small bomb coefficients reduced to 0.2.

_Reason:_ The skill is kinda clunky, especially when used at range where skill effect spam can make it impossible to see when you need to detonate for max damage, or when there's any skill lag that can cause issues with casting and detonating. This change should make it more consistent and smoother to use.

 

**Bonus Suggestion** Slot 1 Skills now become quasi Dual Wield skills and get updated attack chains (Damage co-efficients and cast times TBD via balance testing):

Reason - I dunno. It'd be pretty cool.

 

**Dagger/Dagger**

**Twin Strike** - Slashes foes with each blade. 2x damage. Max targets 2.

**Dual Fangs** - Stabs foes with each blade inflicting Bleeding. 2x damage. 2x Bleed 2s. Max targets 2.

**Mutilate** - Thrusts both blades into enemies inflicting Vulnerability and Poison. 1x Damage. 1x Vulnerability 4s. 1x Poison 4s. Max targets 2.

 

**Dagger/Pistol**

**Dastardly Strike** - Clubs the enemy with your pistol and then slashes with your blade, inflicts Weakness. 2x damage. 1x Weakness 2s. Max targets 2.

**Debilitating Fangs** - Stabs the enemy and then shoots them in the leg, inflicts Cripple. 2x damage. 1x Cripple 2s. Max targets 2.

**Viper Strike** - Shoots the enemy in the vitals and then stabs them with a poisoned blade inflicting Bleeding and Poison. 2x damage. 1x Bleed 2s. 1x Poison 4s. Max targets 2

 

**Pistol/Pistol**

**Twin Shot** - Shoot with both pistols. 2x damage.

**Barrage** - Shoot with both pistols twice. 4x damage.

**Focused Shot** - Fire both pistols and gain Might. 1x damage. 2x Might 5s.

 

**Pistol/Dagger**

**Deadly Shot** - Shoot at an enemies vitals and then throw a dagger at them causing bleeding. 2x damage. 2x Bleed 2s.

**Demon's Sting** - Shoot an enemy and then throw several daggers at them causing Torment. 2x damage. 3x Torment 3s.

**Misery Strike** - Throw several daggers at an enemy and then shoot them twice in the vitals. 1x damage + 2x damage. 3x Torment 3s. 2x Bleed 2s.

 

**Sword/Dagger**

**Fencer's Slice** - Slash with your sword and dagger. 2x damage. Max targets 3.

**Steel Flurry** - Throw daggers while slashing with your sword. 1x damage. Max targets 3.

**Bandit's Edge** - Stab with your dagger, removing boons and slice with your sword. Sword strike deals bonus damage against enemies with no boons. 1x damage + 1x damage. Boons removed 2. Damage bonus 20%. Max targets 3.

 

**Sword/Pistol**

**Duelist's Strike** - Slashes with your sword and then clubs the enemy with your pistol, inflicts Weakness. 2x damage. 1x Weakness 2s. Max targets 3.

**Rogue's Assault** - Shoots your target with a bullet that ricochets to up to 2 additional targets then slashes them with your sword. 2x damage. Max targets 3.

**Scoundrel's Thrust** - Shoots your target twice and then stabs them with your sword, gaining endurance with a successful strike. 3x damage. Endurance gained 15. Max targets 3.

 

 

[kash.9213]

I might kill myself on that Dancing Dagger flip, at least the way I most often use it.

I like the idea of a hold down option for a skill but I had suggested before having that as a Death's Blossom option for clearing distance with a lower to the ground roll or something while leaving the normal use option there.

I kind of like the Cluster Bomb idea except it would be a problem at some sieges where I time it to send the exploded bombs down over a wall.

I'll deliberately land Backstab if all of my ICDs are up to land stuff around it but ya, a lot of the time it's sort of a thud and I might get something off of leap for 3 ini instead. Swipe-CnD-BS all being on point is nice though.

[Astyrah.4015]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> **Pistol/Pistol**

> **Twin Shot** - Shoot with both pistols. 2x damage.

> **Barrage** - Shoot with both pistols twice. 4x damage.

> **Focused Shot** - Fire both pistols and gain Might. 1x damage. 2x Might 5s.

 

i kinda want this one for pistol/pistol. currently when you auto/1 with it, feels kinda off not using both guns when the auto could very well be using both (i mean it's working as intended but yeah...)

[Yasai.3549]

Don't care about anything else but Dancing Dagger is cool.

 

D/D desperately needs a gap closer.

 

Since we are talking about D/D, I don't care about Death Blossom either.

Skill was never useful for jack other than D/D Condi Thieves on fat stationary bosses.

 

I wouldn't mind if they just replaced D/D 3 entirely.

[Sobx.1758]

If you buff backstab to not be outperformed by heartseeker at low hp %, then backstab becomes better at any % of hp and all it does is take away HS ""niche"". What exactly is the purpose of this change?

Currently:

hight hp % -use backstab

low hp % -use HS

 

After the change:

Just use backstab, w/e.

 

Right? How is this a good change? Thief has no cds (duh), so in pve it just spams "the most efficient skill at the moment", your change won't really make it "worth to weave in backstabs in pve rotation at low %", it'll either be better or worse to use it at low % and one or the other will keep getting spammed.

 

___________

 

Highly doubt IS/IR will get buffed, it's already a pretty potent mobility skill, giving it even more purpose/flexibility doesn't seem too reasonable for me. Would it be useful? Obviously. But probably too strong.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> Right? How is this a good change? Thief has no cds (duh), so in pve it just spams "the most efficient skill at the moment", your change won't really make it "worth to weave in backstabs in pve rotation at low %", it'll either be better or worse to use it at low % and one or the other will keep getting spammed.

 

Thief does have CD's.

 

Notably, it has CD's on stealth gaining abilities.

 

1) Because of Revealed

2) Because using Cloak and Dagger is inefficient

3) Because of building Malice when using Deadeye

 

It is the same reason why DE Rifle doesn't "Just spam Death's Judgement" and it revolves around weaving them in between Three Round Bursts to fill up Malice.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > Right? How is this a good change? Thief has no cds (duh), so in pve it just spams "the most efficient skill at the moment", your change won't really make it "worth to weave in backstabs in pve rotation at low %", it'll either be better or worse to use it at low % and one or the other will keep getting spammed.

>

> Thief does have CD's.

>

> Notably, it has CD's on stealth gaining abilities.

>

> 1) Because of Revealed

> 2) Because using Cloak and Dagger is inefficient

> 3) Because of building Malice when using Deadeye

>

> It is the same reason why DE Rifle doesn't "Just spam Death's Judgement" and it revolves around weaving them in between Three Round Bursts to fill up Malice.

 

Of course it's not "just spam death's judgmenet", because it's "just spam whatever lets you spam charged death's judgement", the point remains the same :D

And the dagger rotation on DE is already similar to that, isn't it?

[Taril.8619]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> And the dagger rotation on DE is already similar to that, isn't it?

 

Nope. As it's only swapped to when you're out of stealth cooldowns (Steal, stolen item, Mercy and Shadow Meld) the dagger rotation is Heartseeker spam.

 

Since as mentioned, using Cloak and Dagger is inefficient, even if it's theoretically possible to Heatseeker > Heartseeker > Cloak and Dagger > Malicious Backstab due to CnD letting you build up that last bit of Malice... The overal DPS is lower than just Heartseeker * Infinity (Or rather until your CD's come back up and you can swap back to Rifle)

 

It's possible that a DE rotation that doesn't run Rifle might end up weaving Backstabs in the same way that DE Rifle does, it's just that DE Rifle puts out more DPS to make it not really done.

 

It's also worth noting, even with this 20% damage boost, dagger will still underperform rifle even <25% life scenarios (While this buff will make Malicious Backstab and Death's Judgement deal roughly the same damage ~4.56 coefficient vs 4.54 coefficient, there will still be a discrepancy between Heartseeker and Three Round Burst with the 2.0 coefficient vs 2.25 coefficient. Especially with the higher initiative cost of TRB being negated by how good Maleficent Seven is)

 

Meanwhile, Heartseeker retains the niche of being usable whenever with no stealth requirement, no positional requirement and also providing some mobility and a Leap finisher (However useless that may be). As well as being the filler skill between stealth access (Or in some cases, the trigger for steath i.e. Leap finisher from a Smoke field such as Pistol 5)

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > And the dagger rotation on DE is already similar to that, isn't it?

>

> Nope. As it's only swapped to when you're out of stealth cooldowns (Steal, stolen item, Mercy and Shadow Meld) the dagger rotation is Heartseeker spam.

 

...not really? Go check it again.

 

Anyways w/e, you want the backstab to be the best option pretty much all the time, I don't see the need for that, either way I doubt that'll happen :p

[Taril.8619]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > And the dagger rotation on DE is already similar to that, isn't it?

> >

> > Nope. As it's only swapped to when you're out of stealth cooldowns (Steal, stolen item, Mercy and Shadow Meld) the dagger rotation is Heartseeker spam.

>

> ...not really? Go check it again.

 

Maybe you should.

 

_After 100 or so seconds you will run out of Cooldowns. This means you will need to swap to Dagger / Dagger to finish the fight. _

 

With the rotation using a single Backstab per 7 Heartseekers

 

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> Anyways w/e, you want the backstab to be the best option pretty much all the time

 

In an optimized set up where damage is your only concern and no other factors, yes, it would make sense if the stealth skill that is high damage is worth useing over just mashing your face on the 2 button.

 

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> I don't see the need for that

 

And you're entitled to your opinion.

 

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> either way I doubt that'll happen :p

 

Most likely none of these things will happen.

 

Instead, we'll get more things like them making Condi Thief viable in PvE by increasing Death Blosson's target cap to 5!

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > And the dagger rotation on DE is already similar to that, isn't it?

> > >

> > > Nope. As it's only swapped to when you're out of stealth cooldowns (Steal, stolen item, Mercy and Shadow Meld) the dagger rotation is Heartseeker spam.

> >

> > ...not really? Go check it again.

>

> Maybe you should.

>

> _After 100 or so seconds you will run out of Cooldowns. This means you will need to swap to Dagger / Dagger to finish the fight. _

>

> With the rotation using a single Backstab per 7 Heartseekers

 

...which means it's still "weaved in", like I said it is. What's your point here?

 

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > Anyways w/e, you want the backstab to be the best option pretty much all the time

>

> In an optimized set up where damage is your only concern and no other factors, yes, it would make sense if the stealth skill that is high damage is worth useing over just mashing your face on the 2 button.

 

Nah, it doesn't, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > And the dagger rotation on DE is already similar to that, isn't it?

> > > >

> > > > Nope. As it's only swapped to when you're out of stealth cooldowns (Steal, stolen item, Mercy and Shadow Meld) the dagger rotation is Heartseeker spam.

> > >

> > > ...not really? Go check it again.

> >

> > Maybe you should.

> >

> > _After 100 or so seconds you will run out of Cooldowns. This means you will need to swap to Dagger / Dagger to finish the fight. _

> >

> > With the rotation using a single Backstab per 7 Heartseekers

>

> ...which means it's still "weaved in", like I said it is. What's your point here?

 

It's not really "Weaved in" when you literally spend the majority of your time actively not using it and can easily go without ever actually using it for a DPS gain.

 

 

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > Anyways w/e, you want the backstab to be the best option pretty much all the time

> >

> > In an optimized set up where damage is your only concern and no other factors, yes, it would make sense if the stealth skill that is high damage is worth useing over just mashing your face on the 2 button.

>

> Nah, it doesn't

 

It does. Conditional skills typically have higher throughput than non-conditional skills, because of the increased cost of the conditions that are required to utilize it.

 

This is seen with Stealth skills all having effects that are stronger than the average Thief weapon skill AND have no initiative cost. Due to the associated cost that is requiring access to stealth - Also, in the case of Backstab and Hilt Bash there's an additional positional requirement.

 

In fact, one could argue that Backstab should be stronger than Death's Judgement, due to the additional positional requirement (Though that's another topic entirely)

 

Heartseeker also has a conditional requirement, that being the targets life total. Though, even with this it doesn't perform particularly well even against <25% life targets (With having a damage per initative similar to other Thief skills like Cluster Bomb, Pistol Whip and Shadow Strike while Weakening Charge and Unload have higher damage per initiative)

 

It could also be argued that Heartseeker itself could also do with a damage increase, with a resulting competitive split, in order to either make it less trash vs >25% life targets or to make it stronger vs <25% life targets (The latter could help carve out a niche usage of Dagger beyond "Welp, I ran out of CD's to make Rifle stronk")

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > > And the dagger rotation on DE is already similar to that, isn't it?

> > > > >

> > > > > Nope. As it's only swapped to when you're out of stealth cooldowns (Steal, stolen item, Mercy and Shadow Meld) the dagger rotation is Heartseeker spam.

> > > >

> > > > ...not really? Go check it again.

> > >

> > > Maybe you should.

> > >

> > > _After 100 or so seconds you will run out of Cooldowns. This means you will need to swap to Dagger / Dagger to finish the fight. _

> > >

> > > With the rotation using a single Backstab per 7 Heartseekers

> >

> > ...which means it's still "weaved in", like I said it is. What's your point here?

>

> It's not really "Weaved in" when you literally spend the majority of your time actively not using it and can easily go without ever actually using it for a DPS gain.

 

Well, I guess we have different understanding of the term "weaved in". Good luck making it being used "50:50", because otherwise it somehow doesn't count?

 

Yes, currently it IS weaved in. And I don't think you can "easly go without using it for a dps gain", otherwise it wouldn't be used in a rotation. And it is. What am I not understanding here?

 

> > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > Anyways w/e, you want the backstab to be the best option pretty much all the time

> > >

> > > In an optimized set up where damage is your only concern and no other factors, yes, it would make sense if the stealth skill that is high damage is worth useing over just mashing your face on the 2 button.

> >

> > Nah, it doesn't

>

> It does. Conditional skills typically have higher throughput than non-conditional skills, because of the increased cost of the conditions that are required to utilize it.

 

> This is seen with Stealth skills all having effects that are stronger than the average Thief weapon skill AND have no initiative cost. Due to the associated cost that is requiring access to stealth - Also, in the case of Backstab and Hilt Bash there's an additional positional requirement.

 

hs is still conditional. Also the only places something like this REALLY matters are pvp modes. Mobs don't care and they don't make anything hard to use, because they're highly predictable. It's also pretty much "DE espec specific". So... nah, it doesn't.

 

> In fact, one could argue that Backstab should be stronger than Death's Judgement, due to the additional positional requirement (Though that's another topic entirely)

 

Yes, the exact same way any auto-targetted skill shouldn't be even close to free-targeted skills. That's a great sentiment, but no.

 

> Heartseeker also has a conditional requirement, that being the targets life total. Though, even with this it doesn't perform particularly well even against <25% life targets (With having a damage per initative similar to other Thief skills like Cluster Bomb, Pistol Whip and Shadow Strike while Weakening Charge and Unload have higher damage per initiative)

 

And yet you want it to ~~perform even worse~~ get outperformed even at that point for some reason?

 

> It could also be argued that Heartseeker itself could also do with a damage increase, with a resulting competitive split, in order to either make it less trash vs >25% life targets or to make it stronger vs <25% life targets (The latter could help carve out a niche usage of Dagger beyond "Welp, I ran out of CD's to make Rifle stronk")

 

It could be argued, but DE doesn't really need more pve dps.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> Well, I guess we have different understanding of the term "weaved in". Good luck making it being used "50:50", because otherwise it somehow doesn't count?

 

Using a skill once, is not "Weaving in". Weaving in implies you know, weaving it so it's frequently being used.

 

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> Yes, currently it IS weaved in. And I don't think you can "easly go without using it for a dps gain", otherwise it wouldn't be used in a rotation. And it is. What am I not understanding here?

 

The fact that if it wasn't a DPS gain to forgo it, then you'd use it more frequently. I.e. If Malicious Backstab was an actual DPS gain to use with Cloak and Dagger, you'd see a rotation that is Heartseeker > Heartseeker > auto attack x3 > Cloak and Dagger > Malicious Backstab.

 

But you don't. You see a single Backstab and then a ton of Heartseekers because the Backstab is only used to clear Malice and allow for a new M7 proc when initiative becomes an issue.

 

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> hs is still conditional. Also the only places something like this REALLY matters are pvp modes. Mobs don't care and they don't make anything hard to use, because they're highly predictable. It's also pretty much "DE espec specific". So... nah, it doesn't.

 

What? Are you implying Backstab isn't DE Specific? That other Thief builds don't need to be stealthed or behind a target to get maximum bonus from Backstab?

 

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > In fact, one could argue that Backstab should be stronger than Death's Judgement, due to the additional positional requirement (Though that's another topic entirely)

>

> Yes, the exact same way any auto-targetted skill shouldn't be even close to free-targeted skills. That's a great sentiment, but no.

 

That's not really the same thing. But whatever, you do you.

 

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> And yet you want it to ~~perform even worse~~ get outperformed even at that point for some reason?

 

Yes. Since I'm looking at the singular skill Backstab right at this moment in time for this particular suggestion.

 

Maybe at a later date, I might suggest something in regards to Heartseeker. Maybe along the lines of making Heartseeker better at fighting low health targets, to make Dagger actually worth something other than a last ditch resort in optimized PvE encounters (When played to a high standard, as has been noted in other threads there are a number of players whom either don't care, or just don't have the capacity to play at such a level and therefore don't run out of stealth CD's when running Rifle DE)

 

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> It could be argued, but DE doesn't really need more pve dps.

 

One could argue counter to that. Given that DE and Thief as a whole doesn't bring any utility besides Daredevil having some BB damage on some select bosses. While many other builds outperform DE in DPS while also bringing utility. (In fact, there has been mention of it in several threads...)

 

Unless your basis for this is purely Golem Benchmarks in which case... It's pointless to talk about balance with you as golem benchmarks are far from the end-all-be-all of balance...

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > Well, I guess we have different understanding of the term "weaved in". Good luck making it being used "50:50", because otherwise it somehow doesn't count?

>

> Using a skill once, is not "Weaving in". Weaving in implies you know, weaving it so it's frequently being used.

 

It actually still is weaving it in. By your -apparent- definition, the weaving would require the rotation to be pretty much 515151515115, which would be rather stupid and pointless. Swapping one "optimal skill" with another "optimal skill" does nothing.

 

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > Yes, currently it IS weaved in. And I don't think you can "easly go without using it for a dps gain", otherwise it wouldn't be used in a rotation. And it is. What am I not understanding here?

>

> The fact that if it wasn't a DPS gain to forgo it, then you'd use it more frequently. I.e. If Malicious Backstab was an actual DPS gain to use with Cloak and Dagger, you'd see a rotation that is Heartseeker > Heartseeker > auto attack x3 > Cloak and Dagger > Malicious Backstab.

 

> But you don't. You see a single Backstab and then a ton of Heartseekers because the Backstab is only used to clear Malice and allow for a new M7 proc when initiative becomes an issue.

 

Yes, the reason for using it is irrelevant, the fact that it has its use in a rotation is enough. Overally it is a dps gain despite you trying to claim differently before that, so not sure what you're arguing here?

 

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > hs is still conditional. Also the only places something like this REALLY matters are pvp modes. Mobs don't care and they don't make anything hard to use, because they're highly predictable. It's also pretty much "DE espec specific". So... nah, it doesn't.

>

> What? Are you implying Backstab isn't DE Specific? That other Thief builds don't need to be stealthed or behind a target to get maximum bonus from Backstab?

 

I don't exactly understand what you're talking about here?

I say it's DE espec specific, because that's pretty much the only thing in pve that will run with daggers if you care about dps. You won't suddenly drop DE and switch to core thief d/d because of a small-ish backstab dmg buff.

 

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > In fact, one could argue that Backstab should be stronger than Death's Judgement, due to the additional positional requirement (Though that's another topic entirely)

> >

> > Yes, the exact same way any auto-targetted skill shouldn't be even close to free-targeted skills. That's a great sentiment, but no.

>

> That's not really the same thing. But whatever, you do you.

 

Pretty sure it is, seeing as both of these examples are backed by the same idea you've tried using as an argument, where ""additional effort"" (as I already wrote, it's hardly any "effort" at all in scripted pve events anyways, hence the multiple quotation marks) is rewarded by better performance.

 

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > And yet you want it to ~~perform even worse~~ get outperformed even at that point for some reason?

>

> Yes. Since I'm looking at the singular skill Backstab right at this moment in time for this particular suggestion.

 

You're looking at singular skill backstab, but use another skill that I keep talking about as a justification of a buff? Then don't look at a singular skill and understand that swapping "one optimal skill" for "another optimal skill" achieves pretty much nothing. Except right now you still have reasons to use backstab on both higher hp % AND on lower considering you'd like to use dagger, where with your change it's pretty much "now I'll spam backstab all the time instead of using hs at low hp %". Doesn't make much sense to me, which is also what I initially wrote.

 

> Maybe at a later date, I might suggest something in regards to Heartseeker. Maybe along the lines of making Heartseeker better at fighting low health targets, to make Dagger actually worth something other than a last ditch resort in optimized PvE encounters (When played to a high standard, as has been noted in other threads there are a number of players whom either don't care, or just don't have the capacity to play at such a level and therefore don't run out of stealth CD's when running Rifle DE)

 

Yes and then you'll come up with a change for backstab, beacuse hs again outperforms it on low % hp, right? Exactly like at this moment?

 

I think this is kind of a collective -but pretty shortsighted- thought across many of the people proposing their buff ideas. They look at the weapons available for the class, inevitably come to the conclusions that cerain weapons outperform the others in certain situations/modes (be it overal utility, support, pure dps, burst, mobility, cc or whatever else anyone can think of), so they want to buff the other weapons in the same areas.

The idea of having perfectly balanced choices across the weaponsets is great and I'd be all over it if it wasn't for the fact that it's pretty much impossible. As a result they propose to buff weapon x to match weapon y in a given area (for example better utility for pvp or pure dps for pve), but there will aaaaaaalways be one specific "better choice" for a given situation. So what happens? Pretty much what you described here: I'm bored of using this skill/weapon, so lets buff the other one, so I can spam it now and feel like it's an optimal choice! In two months you'll ask to buff what you were bored of, because now you use "the optimal buffed one" for a bit too long and it gets boring. That's not a solution for anything, that's just swapping flavours by buffing weapons/skills in circles. If you're interested in flavor, then be ready to not be optimal, there's no way around it and there probably never will be. Luckily we don't need anywhere near the top of theoretically optimal dps to comfortably complete pve events/raids, so maybe the actual solution is to stop caring THAT much about the meters.

^this part might have became a bit "rant-ish", but I'm kind of getting tired with people saying "this is an optimal option right now, but I want another weapon/skill to be optimal, so we need to buff it!". No, we don't, because in reality it doesn't change anything.

 

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > It could be argued, but DE doesn't really need more pve dps.

>

> One could argue counter to that. Given that DE and Thief as a whole doesn't bring any utility besides Daredevil having some BB damage on some select bosses. While many other builds outperform DE in DPS while also bringing utility. (In fact, there has been mention of it in several threads...)

>

> Unless your basis for this is purely Golem Benchmarks in which case... It's pointless to talk about balance with you as golem benchmarks are far from the end-all-be-all of balance...

 

Given that I never had any problems with playing thief amongs other classes in raids and being at least near the top of dps tables, I'd say there's absolutely no need to buff dps regardless of what you believe I use as my point of reference. If you're concerned about raids, make sure to vouch for not being able to skip mechanics with dps instead of trying to make them easier/faster than they already are for some reason (feel free to fill me in on what that reason is, because I sure can't see it).