Dawdler.8521 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > > @"ASP.8093" said: > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > Oh no downstate? Let me get my oneshot permastealth deadeye, go in, kill 1 person and run away. > > > No downstate? Let me get my 1800-1900 range longbow ranger. > > > No downstate? Let me get my oneshot mantra mesmer. > > > > > > Such skilled builds. > > > > In fairness, full-Minstrels Firebrands who pop 5-4-3 on top of a down and then rub them aren't really "skilled builds" either. > > > > Neither are the condi bunkers or other attrition-monkeys. > > > > Nor the Dragonhunters who spam out all their traps in order to create a single down out of position and then finish them with residual damage. > > > > It's quite possible there are no "skilled builds" in this game at all, with or without the down state. > > In WvW there is not. It's all a pure numbers game. It's a prettier version of Risk. > > The person with the largest army always wins, it's just a matter of how long. I would argue that *effectiveness* take precedence at some point. I mean when you see a 5 man group **dominate** a border where your side can never get more than 2-3 people defending objectives they attack when you know there is at least 20+ on the border... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 > @"ASP.8093" said: > In fairness, full-Minstrels Firebrands who pop 5-4-3 on top of a down and then rub them aren't really "skilled builds" either. If they remove oneshot variants without destroying thief, ranger, mesmer, engineer etc I am all in for no downstate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaFishBob.6518 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 The title of this thread confused me. I thought you regretted having played with no downstate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subversiontwo.7501 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 > @"ASP.8093" said: > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > Oh no downstate? Let me get my oneshot permastealth deadeye, go in, kill 1 person and run away. > In fairness, full-Minstrels Firebrands who pop 5-4-3 on top of a down and then rub them aren't really "skilled builds" either. If we're talking about fairness here, you would see that in those two examples that purportedly no-skilled blobber was subjected to more responsive action and buttons to mash, making all these threads about how no-downstate would be more skillful quite amusing. In reality it makes the mode less dimensional and ganking people is already so easy that roaming at the higher levels of competition has grown stagnant. That's important because in a discussion on a forum about balance, what people do on eg., your server is far less important than what people can do and thus likely do on other servers. So, for example, your servers may not be full of ganking thieves but the fact that it is possible makes it a problem and it only takes someone to start doing it to you in order to ruin your ecosystem, assuming you have one that is good for roaming on a broad variety of classes. This separates for example T1 NA and EU where roaming on NA was pretty decent a few months back while roaming on EU was pretty bad. However, what transpired in EU was perfectly possible to do on NA too, there just wasn't the amount, organisation or malice necessary to do it. That's a pretty vague example but I think you catch my drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledernierrempart.6871 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 > @"subversiontwo.7501" said: > > @"ASP.8093" said: > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > Oh no downstate? Let me get my oneshot permastealth deadeye, go in, kill 1 person and run away. > > In fairness, full-Minstrels Firebrands who pop 5-4-3 on top of a down and then rub them aren't really "skilled builds" either. > If we're talking about fairness here, you would see that in those two examples that purportedly no-skilled blobber was subjected to more responsive action and buttons to mash, making all these threads about how no-downstate would be more skillful quite amusing. In reality it makes the mode less dimensional and ganking people is already so easy that roaming at the higher levels of competition has grown stagnant. That's important because in a discussion on a forum about balance, what people do on eg., your server is far less important than what people can do and thus likely do on other servers. > > So, for example, your servers may not be full of ganking thieves but the fact that it is possible makes it a problem and it only takes someone to start doing it to you in order to ruin your ecosystem, assuming you have one that is good for roaming on a broad variety of classes. This separates for example T1 NA and EU where roaming on NA was pretty decent a few months back while roaming on EU was pretty bad. However, what transpired in EU was perfectly possible to do on NA too, there just wasn't the amount, organisation or malice necessary to do it. That's a pretty vague example but I think you catch my drift. > > full ganking thieves group is cancer no matter the downstate state. but i would argue that you can at least kill them instead of downing them and then suddenly losing track of the downed to become downed yourself 5s after by a horde of thieves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said: > ■ downed getting revived faster than you can stomp him. Insta revive from a SINGLE person is faster than insta stomp btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"ASP.8093" said: > > In fairness, full-Minstrels Firebrands who pop 5-4-3 on top of a down and then rub them aren't really "skilled builds" either. > > If they remove oneshot variants without destroying thief, ranger, mesmer, engineer etc I am all in for no downstate. > > Easy! * Assassins signet nerfed to 100 power on the active * One wold pack damage nerfed by 50% * Mantra of pain(power spike) no longer applies vuln and applies cripple instead Hows eng 1 shot? Also scepter weaver 1 shots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said: > > > > ■ downed getting revived faster than you can stomp him. > Insta revive from a SINGLE person is faster than insta stomp btw. Which is an issue with skills rather than downstate, yes. I personally dont think anything that instantly revive players should exist, it should be AoE heal over time aimed at supporting player activity (ie the opposite of a suppressing poison field). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said: > > > > > > > ■ downed getting revived faster than you can stomp him. > > Insta revive from a SINGLE person is faster than insta stomp btw. > Which is an issue with skills rather than downstate, yes. I personally dont think anything that instantly revive players should exist, it should be AoE heal over time aimed at supporting player activity (ie the opposite of a suppressing poison field). > > Oh I wasn't even talking about utilities. Pressing F the second someone is downed will res them faster than someone pressing F to stomp the second they're downed can stomp them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > > > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said: > > > > > > > > > > ■ downed getting revived faster than you can stomp him. > > > Insta revive from a SINGLE person is faster than insta stomp btw. > > Which is an issue with skills rather than downstate, yes. I personally dont think anything that instantly revive players should exist, it should be AoE heal over time aimed at supporting player activity (ie the opposite of a suppressing poison field). > > > > > > Oh I wasn't even talking about utilities. Pressing F the second someone is downed will res them faster than someone pressing F to stomp the second they're downed can stomp them. Not really, but hey AoE doesnt hurt. Well I'm used to having poison on them. Also I generally try to see and anticipate where enemy go down so I can be there before potential ressers. It involves some tactics and isnt always possible to pull off, but manouvering is essential. Again, what you are talking about isnt an issue with downed state itself - its an issue with the balancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 Downing the same 5 people 3v8 multiple times then eventually running out of cds and having to retreat, with zero kills to show for it, feels pretty bad. I don't think downstate belongs in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 And this is why Battle Maul used to finish downs. Anet, bring back Battle Maul finish and ignore the care bears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiyo.3578 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > And this is why Battle Maul used to finish downs. > > Anet, bring back Battle Maul finish and ignore the care bears. No thanks, battle maul finishing downs made being outnumbered even worse than downed state does. My god, that made roaming completely unfun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ledernierrempart.6871 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > > > > @"ledernierrempart.6871" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ■ downed getting revived faster than you can stomp him. > > > > Insta revive from a SINGLE person is faster than insta stomp btw. > > > Which is an issue with skills rather than downstate, yes. I personally dont think anything that instantly revive players should exist, it should be AoE heal over time aimed at supporting player activity (ie the opposite of a suppressing poison field). > > > > > > > > > > Oh I wasn't even talking about utilities. Pressing F the second someone is downed will res them faster than someone pressing F to stomp the second they're downed can stomp them. > Not really, but hey AoE doesnt hurt. Well I'm used to having poison on them. > > Also I generally try to see and anticipate where enemy go down so I can be there before potential ressers. It involves some tactics and isnt always possible to pull off, but manouvering is essential. Again, what you are talking about isnt an issue with downed state itself - its an issue with the balancing. downstate itself is not balanced. of course it is not THE feature that made everything else so unbalanced. but it contribute to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lan Deathrider.5910 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 > @"Shiyo.3578" said: > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > And this is why Battle Maul used to finish downs. > > > > Anet, bring back Battle Maul finish and ignore the care bears. > > No thanks, battle maul finishing downs made being outnumbered even worse than downed state does. My god, that made roaming completely unfun. Sure as hell helped with zergs though, and created a pseudo no downstate. Can't complain about maul finish and want no downstate at the same time mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scerevisiae.1972 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 yes please. downed state sucks. majority of people saying to keep it just aren't insightful enough to realise that its removal would of course be accompanied by additional HP, skill reworks etc. very very few people actually like it. IMHO it's the worst game feature of any game i've ever played. i couldn't hate it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 > @"scerevisiae.1972" said: > very very few people actually like it. *(only about 70% of the people but lets totally live in the magical land of opposite truth)* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > I miss not seeing every other thread about downstate when _there is so much more kitten wrong with WvW that needs to be addressed_ like the > > # never ending lie of Alliances! And regular balance updates! And map fixes! Isn't their tolerance of the WvW community a lie in general? Most changes of late seem geared toward destroying the mode, not helping it. Honestly Im surprised it even still exists at this point lmfao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 Down state is a VERY good idea, I can't live in a world where these 5 people (including permastealth DE and DD) would have died due to their lack of skill. /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 Reward the player for downing, double it for finishing. This way EVEN IF you get run over you still get something for downing someone as its one half of the whole, if truly downstate is required. Its really not that hard~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilora.9524 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > Down state is a VERY good idea, I can't live in a world where these 5 people (including permastealth DE and DD) would have died due to their lack of skill. /s > > Dats the same video as before where you down that bronze guy 3 times. I need new content from you plz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeepBoopBop.5403 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 > @"Jilora.9524" said: > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > Down state is a VERY good idea, I can't live in a world where these 5 people (including permastealth DE and DD) would have died due to their lack of skill. /s > > > > > > Dats the same video as before where you down that bronze guy 3 times. I need new content from you plz Like and subscribe? Ring that bell too. Content like this is not hard to make for yourself if you actually try to fight outnumbered. This situation is not uncommon at ALL and is hardly worth filming if not for all the 'no downstate' discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch.6507 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > Reward the player for downing, double it for finishing. This way EVEN IF you get run over you still get something for downing someone as its one half of the whole, if truly downstate is required. Its really not that hard~ 2 mins participation for a down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 > @"Arioch.6507" said: > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > Reward the player for downing, double it for finishing. This way EVEN IF you get run over you still get something for downing someone as its one half of the whole, if truly downstate is required. Its really not that hard~ > > 2 mins participation for a down Does that exist? I mean If it does I've never noticed, I meant give half the amount of XP on the XP bar for the kill that it would normally give. Have it count toward progress; If that does exist then I mean cool I guess? Idk. Most of the time Im more frustrated that I had a target or two down, and dying and then here comes some rando thief or some bunker guard whom I can't even begin to deal with as Im still on recharge. Either that or its a perma root druid which.... well yea we know how those go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch.6507 Posted September 3, 2020 Share Posted September 3, 2020 @"Thornwolf.9721" it does not exist at the moment, you get nothing if you don't finish the kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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