Celestial gear, does it have a purpose? Should it be buffed?

[LaFurion.3167]

From what I have seen it seems to be a thing of the past. I made a post in the wvw forums about the usage of celestial gear, but it got me thinking about not just wvw builds, but celestial gear in all game modes.

 

As far as I can tell, it has been outdated since Elite specializations (the ELITE specs, not the "oh wait, elite but trade off specs) came out. And I havn't seen any meta celestial builds in the 5 years that I have been playing, except celestial holo (out dated now), and celestial weaver, both which were roaming builds.

 

 

I recently crafted a full Celestial set for my engineer. I have pistol shield, hammer, and rifle, all celestial too. Everything is ascended. However, I just can't make it work in any game mode. In wvw, I get just blown up by marauder gear players. The healing/toughness/vitality I get from celestial gear may as well have been paper. In pve also, I am struggling to see any use for celestial, as it is all min maxing. Sure, Gw2 wants us to stay away from the trinity of tank/dps/healer, but when you have a spec like firebrand that can do INSANE dps while healing crazy amounts without even using a blast water finisher, I feel like there is a major design flaw.

 

 

I seriously regret making a celestial set... am considering just going full trailblazers/grievers (for wvw and pve, as these type of "streamlined" dps yet tanky" builds seem to excell. Marauder for pve and pvp/wvw. Grieving for wvw/pve, even pve where min maxing is the meta, a marauder set can do what a berserker set can do.

 

In your mind, do you think celestial gear has any place in the modern powercrept gw2? Does it need a buff?

[Ubi.4136]

It actually has a few uses, I can't see any need to buff it further.

[LaFurion.3167]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> It actually has a few uses, I can't see any need to buff it further.

 

Can you please list these uses? Atm i am taking forever to kill a veteran in open world whereas if I was on a dedicated power/condi build I would melt it in seconds without even glancing their way.

[Ubi.4136]

> @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > It actually has a few uses, I can't see any need to buff it further.

>

> Can you please list these uses? Atm i am taking forever to kill a veteran in open world whereas if I was on a dedicated power/condi build I would melt it in seconds without even glancing their way.

 

Mostly wvw builds, but there are a few for open world. Celestial gear isn't very useful for a lot of classes. I find that ele and necro have better use of the even stat distribution, but you are giving up a lot of dps for the sustain/balance of celestial. Metabattle.com is a really good reference for builds, for all game modes. And, as an engineer, there are a couple really good choices for open world, they just aren't using celestial gear.

[LaFurion.3167]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> > > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > It actually has a few uses, I can't see any need to buff it further.

> >

> > Can you please list these uses? Atm i am taking forever to kill a veteran in open world whereas if I was on a dedicated power/condi build I would melt it in seconds without even glancing their way.

>

> Mostly wvw builds, but there are a few for open world. Celestial gear isn't very useful for a lot of classes. I find that ele and necro have better use of the even stat distribution, but you are giving up a lot of dps for the sustain/balance of celestial. Metabattle.com is a really good reference for builds, for all game modes. And, as an engineer, there are a couple really good choices for open world, they just aren't using celestial gear.

 

Thanks, yeah. The key word being that you are giving up A LOT of dps, while the other stats that it gives you hardly do anything noticeable ... I use metabattle all the time, but I am also starting to branch out and create my own builds (hence why i decided to give celestial core/scrapper a go) but man... celestial just feels like a major major handicap.

[otto.5684]

For PvE, does it matter? Gear needs to provide max dps or support. The in the middle stuff does not work.

 

SPvP, not sure. No one currently uses celestial. It could work with more HP for guardian and Ele.

 

WvW not sure either. Though here is the place where it possibly could be the most broken.

[Infusion.7149]

It doesn't need a buff. It works fine on guardian , necro, and even elementalist to an extent. For engineer you basically need to be running some sort of condi grenade/flamethrower/bomb kits to make use of it. Also you don't have to run full celestial, you could easily mix in some pieces unless it is sPVP.

 

There's a massive sustain from celestial over marauder, but it's mostly attrition to win since you don't have the condition damage or power (about 2000 power even with +175 or +225 power runes and food/utility).

 

In sPvP the French worms even ran a cele engineer in a monthly automated tournaments so it's certainly possible.

 

edit: if you want to salvage your investment I would move all the trinkets to a scourge for WvW purposes and then swap in grieving trinkets.

[Taril.8619]

It's an awkward stat set up for sure.

 

It's usable in WvW on some classes. Since having some all around defence/sustain can be nice and some classes have decent hybrid damage options (Notably, Elementalist, Guardian and Necro)

 

In PvE it sucks and it will always suck. Since either you're a DPS, so Vitality/Toughness/Healing Power are dead stats. Or you're a Support and Power/Precision/Ferocity/Condition Damage/Vitality/Toughness are dead stats. Not to mention, you build around hitting certain breakpoints in a PvE build, i.e. 100% crit chance, 100% boon duration, 100% condition duration etc. While, not only does Celestial not contribute very much to any particular stat, it also completely lacks Concentration and Expertise entirely.

 

For OW PvE, you really don't need the mix of mitigation options. Really, just a single stat is needed to get pretty tanky due to how incoming damage is primarily power based burst. Meanwhile, dealing damage is a great way to be tanky because dead things won't hurt you. As such, gear like Marauder and Trailblazer work just fine.

[Zephire.8049]

Celestial stats are fine. Celestial scourge still looks to be a viable build and celestial guardian or firebrand was an option for a time, both being in WvW (I'm not familiar enough with other specs to comment on them).

 

Celestial has always been a jack of all trades, master of none stat. This usually means running with a group of people who will sponge damage away from you so you can be an aggressive support player. If you're roaming in celestial, you're in for a rough time because like you've discovered, it does not offer the same survivability due to the stat distribution. In exchange your damage and support abilities aren't as low as they would be otherwise, but you really need other players with you for it to shine.

 

And not all stats need to be viable in all gamemodes. I don't PvP so can't speak for that, but in PvE no one would ever touch celestial even with a rework because 'zerker/marauder/viper/carrion stats are fine in OWPvE, and due to the toughness it wouldn't be used in raids outside possibly some meme builds. There's a finite number gear stats can have, distributed among X stats. 'zerker is about as ideal distribution you can get for power DPS, so unless celestial no longer resembled anything approaching celestial, it would not be useful or used in PvE so reworking it would be pointless. Even if you gave it non-stat buffs in something, it would have to at least be a sidegrade to what we have now for it to be used outside the occasional piece of gear or two when not min-maxing.

 

You can re-stat your ascended celestial armour (not trickets, though) with a mystic forge recipe, but honestly I'd look into reworking stats like nomad's, rampager's, and settler's before celestial. At least from a PvE perspective.

[Naxos.2503]

I just think it should incorporate the stats that got added after, with the equal amount, purely for completeness sake (#notafreak)

[Astralporing.1957]

It has some use in WvW, but since HoT it has been mostly superseded by 4-stat sets that offer a better combination of good stat distribution vs total point value (especially since celestial doesn't include new stat sets like Expertise). In SPvP it has been nerfed from being obligatory into oblivion long ago. In PvE, it has always been a trash stat set, and, after HoT (and new stats/4-stat sets introduction) it's even more so.

 

And the time-limited crafting fo exotic version, when compared to its usefulness, seems like a joke now. And not even a good one, to be honest.

[Coeruleum.9164]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> I just think it should incorporate the stats that got added after, with the equal amount, purely for completeness sake (#notafreak)

 

I think I would agree with this. I interpreted "buff" as "higher stats" and celestial doesn't need higher stats because it already has uses mostly for engi and weaver, but adding equal amounts of the new stats wouldn't make it overpowered. Most gear is already only good on a couple of builds and there are lots of options. Celestial doesn't have to be good for everyone to be good. According to people I asked celestial is already the best gear for my weaver even without a buff. Having all stats would make it stick to the original concept more though.

[MarzAttakz.9608]

It was the first full set I crafted for my Elementalist and shared with my Necro prior to all the changes made to healing power co-efficients and the amount of barrier a scourge could generate. I'm still using it because I have it but with everything that's changed it quite simply doesn't give enough bang for the buck and I regret my choice now.

[Rukia.4802]

I made a cele ascended set for my ele years ago and used it maybe once or twice and its still sitting there on that complete disappointment of a character, not touched since lol. I thought it was going to be perfect for weaver, but then I thought that class was going to be more of a battlemage.

[Ototo.3214]

The celestial stat is a jack of all trades, master of none case. We've gotten more and more other stat combinations that are a heck of a lot more efficient at doing 1 thing well too. If celestial were to be buffed though, it might become the only good stat combo since it can provide dang near everything, which, I personally dont want to see. Even if they tack on the newer stat types, that's still giving it even more numbers unless they nerf the other numbers.

 

Besides, there are quite a few stat combos that hardly, if ever, see use. Why should celestial be special?

[Edge.8724]

Can't really say a buff, but Concentration and Expertise should be added.

Celestial is the all arounf stat. If you don't use even one of its stats, it would be recommended to switch stats. You need a specific build for it.

I had moderate success with a Core Guardian build using full celestial in both open world PvE and PvP.

I tested it on Weaver and I kinda liked it (you really need to use All the stats).

I'm thinking of testing it on some Engineers and Warrior builds for fun.

 

Oh, I think Revenant could work?

 

But the thing to remember with these stats, you will never be fully dedicated to one role and a LOT of people hate those who wants to be in the middle.

[Sifu.9745]

> @"Edge.8724" said:

 

> I had moderate success with a Core Guardian build using full celestial in both open world PvE and PvP.

 

May i ask what weapon sets do you use for a Core Guardian celestial build? Staff + Mace/x (sword/x)? I guess Greatsword and Hammer are both out of question?

 

[DeanBB.4268]

I say add Concentration and Expertise to make it more relevant. With all the good 4-stat sets out there, it won't make it OP.

I made a set for my guardian>dragon hunter and "beat the game" on it before moving on to a Berserker+Marauder set. My DH did survive better on Celestial though, but as noted that was giving up faster kills.

I still make a charged quartz crystal most every day.

[Edge.8724]

> @"Sifu.9745" said:

> > @"Edge.8724" said:

>

> > I had moderate success with a Core Guardian build using full celestial in both open world PvE and PvP.

>

> May i ask what weapon sets do you use for a Core Guardian celestial build? Staff + Mace/x (sword/x)? I guess Greatsword and Hammer are both out of question?

>

 

I'll have to redo it in the editor, but I think it was Sword/Shield and Mace/Focus using the virtue and some utility skills for burning.

The reason I think it worked is because Burn is natural with Guardian. I guess pretty much all weapons works (specifically looking at Torch too).

 

I'll give more news later on, but just remember, this is absolutely no way near meta builds.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Cele has seen play multible times in WvW over the years.

 

Depends on the balance.

 

 

 

[Hannelore.8153]

Its all-stat gear, and should have Concentration and Expertise added to offset its decline into obscurity. (This is mostly why it fell out of favor.) It's not like it'd be anywhere near the power of sets like Harrier, so I doubt it would be game-breaking.

 

I think the reason they don't do this is because those are "expansion stats". So just add a "new" Celestial set instead?

[Infusion.7149]

Do you realize that if concentration and expertise were added at the same rate it would probably be pretty broken when mixed with other stats rather than when run as a full set?

It's +639 if it's a full ascended set (trinkets/weapon/armor) which results in an additional 42.6% boon duration and condition duration. This is just a bit above the minor stat on a 4-stat combination (which would have +633 for a full set i.e. marauder or minstrel's).

 

Keep in mind the effectiveness of firebrand/tempest/scrapper heals is such that ~ 600 healing power gives you roughly 70% of the healing power of full minstrel's.

 

The most common build in WvW with celestial in it right now is Scourge ; with an additional 21% (314 concentration/expertise) boon and condition duration from trinkets on top of what it has now it would be even stronger. Likewise you could run a toughness rune such as durability/trooper on guardian and be just as tanky as minstrels + monk.

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Do you realize that if concentration and expertise were added at the same rate it would probably be pretty broken when mixed with other stats rather than when run as a full set?

> It's +639 if it's a full ascended set (trinkets/weapon/armor) which results in an additional 42.6% boon duration and condition duration. This is just a bit above the minor stat on a 4-stat combination (which would have +633 for a full set i.e. marauder or minstrel's).

>

> Keep in mind the effectiveness of firebrand/tempest/scrapper heals is such that ~ 600 healing power gives you roughly 70% of the healing power of full minstrel's.

>

> The most common build in WvW with celestial in it right now is Scourge ; with an additional 21% (314 concentration/expertise) boon and condition duration from trinkets on top of what it has now it would be even stronger. Likewise you could run a toughness rune such as durability/trooper on guardian and be just as tanky as minstrels + monk.

 

If concentration and expertise got added it would probably get watered down some more by reducing all stats to avoid the problem you just mentioned. The final total would still be higher than the current total so technically still a buff. The price of being able to dabble into everything is not being good at anything with the alternative being broken balance.

[Sir Alymer.3406]

Well, actually, let's look at what full celestial gives you in terms of stats. No runes, no sigils, just celestial equipment (armor, trinkets, weapon.)

 

The total per attribute bonus is 639 to every stat but Expertise and Concentration.

 

8*639=2,952 total stats.

 

There's probably ways they could do this to buff it to all stats.

 

1. ANet keeps the total points the same, but divides the total by 10 instead of 8. This gives a total of 295.2 per attribute. This comes out to 19.68% condition and boon duration but at the same time really nerfs everything else about celestial.

 

2. ANet changes the ratio of points per attribute to something slightly larger so the next two fit into the stat array.

 

3. Expertise and concentration are just added at the current rate of 639 per attribute. This, as stated earlier, gives 42.6% condition and boon duration, which is huge. For reference, these are what the currently meta sets for boons and condition duration give as full sets: Diviner's (4 stat, concentration primary) gives 78.2% total boon duration, Minstrel's (4 stat) gives 42.2% boon duration, Harrier's (3 stat, Concentration secondary) gives 64%, and Vipers (4 stat, expertise secondary) gives 42.2% condition duration.

 

4. expertise and concentration are added at reduced rates to keep in line with balance while allowing all stats on the equipment. They'd have to give 10% or less boon duration in my opinion, not to overshadow other classes and builds.

[Zeivu.3615]

Honestly, I would rather they just change the stats altogether. But what stats would it get? Maybe a like the commander but without the power and concentration as the major stat? I don't know. Three-Four stat armor is where it's at.