Nerf condi?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Condi isn't the real issue, it's the both defensive stats that make some condi builds a problem

[diomache.9246]

Power Damage is still too high that condi could be a real option for most classes. When I get 12k hits and above on toughness gear while I can easily cleanse 90% of the conditions without even thinking about it then conditions aren't the issue.

It's so easy to bring your cleanse and avoid condition damage while there is almost no avoiding power spikes

[Jaruselka.5943]

Condi has already been nerfed and there are cleanses a plenty. In fact it's plethora of condi cleanse skills that has greatly contributed to the demise of the core engineer in WvW. That along with all the projectile hate...

[Inoki.6048]

_”Nerf this, nerf that.”_

 

I think it’s not condi power that’s a problem, but the way conditions are applied and the amount of stacks. The amount classes like Mesmers can apply via clone spam is truly off-putting. Introducing a **cap on the max amount of stacks** could do.

 

At the same time, if you limit this you need to **limit condi cleanses too**, because rn that’s a reason to vomit as well. The other day I ran into a group consisting of a Scourge, Elementalist and a Scrapper. This trio was unkillable for a good 20’ until we clearly outnumbered them.

 

Balance needs to be achieved. In this case it could perhaps not be as complicated, i.e. if you reduce one, reduce the other as well.

[Hannelore.8153]

When people realise that Sigil of Cleansing triggers on weaponswap, attuning, Death Shroud, Photon Forge, Legend change, etc.

 

Condi is one of the smallest problems in WvW compared to everything else.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Inoki.6048" said:

> _”Nerf this, nerf that.”_

>

> I think it’s not condi power that’s a problem, but the way conditions are applied and the amount of stacks. The amount classes like Mesmers can apply via clone spam "via macros"

 

Lots of mesmers use macros. Only those who dont are actually skillful at mesmer as they dont need aide. Those that rely on macros are cheating themselves.

 

 

[aspirine.6852]

Its kinda hard to balance, in small fights it is really good. In big fights with so many cleanses it is damn near useless.

[Kovu.7560]

Certain condi specs are overtuned in small scale. That bunker condi thief build with 80% evasion uptime springs to mind. Ran into a few of those. There are also condi/burn elementalist builds that are nigh invincible in small scale and can outlast most cleansing. There are others, but the issue might lie more with the defensive mechanics of those professions rather than the condition output itself, however.

 

In large scale I don't see conditions as an issue due to all of the area cleansing and conversion.

 

~ Kovu

 

edit- In retrospect, I probably should've voted "other".

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Certain condi specs are overtuned in small scale. That bunker condi thief build with 80% evasion uptime springs to mind. Ran into a few of those. There are also condi/burn elementalist builds that are nigh invincible in small scale and can outlast most cleansing. There are others, but the issue might lie more with the defensive mechanics of those professions rather than the condition output itself, however.

 

In large scale I don't see conditions as an issue due to all of the area cleansing and conversion.

 

~ Kovu

 

edit- In retrospect, I probably should've voted "other".

 

Thats why i aslo chosed adional rune option that will help you at small scale with less dmg cost penalty

but you will do less dmg compare to true dps runes, but not that small dmg like with toughness/-condi duration runes

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Better thing to do would be removal of Dire and Trailblazer from WvW permanently.

Some classes are overtuned and are capable of tanking 3+ ppl with ease while still spreading aids on left and right thanks to that gear(safe mode).

[diomache.9246]

And if you remove that you hurt those that aren't overpowered? Really smart decision for balancing. Not.

Let's take out any vitality/power gear because stealth overperforms would be the next smart move?

[Raizel Silverius.6430]

I voted for the condi to be nerfed considering a lot of skills in this game applies 2-3 condition as easy as giving candies away (and oh boy, do they hurt a LOT when it gets applied more). Sure you can cleanse them here and there but between how much a player can apply vs how much a player can cleanse then well, you can imagine which one would lose at the end.

 

If I were to give an opinion on how to balance this without any changes on the current condition mechanic (behavior and/or otherwise), I would request to remove all armor stat combination that gives Toughness and Vitality on top of condition damage. Why you asked? Considering for power spec, you need Power Precision and Ferocity to deal some actual damage while condition only need condition damage (zero expertise is needed for a lot of them considering the duration they have at base is already enough) it kinda does not balance it.

 

OR, we could revert back the old condi behavior? like bleed caps on 25 stacks, burn extends duration instead of intensity (so is poison and confusion).

 

OR, you know, MAKE VITALITY ACTUALLY MATTER IN REDUCING CONDITION DAMAGE? :disappointed:

 

For Stealth, it's a VERY long debate and issue to be honest. If Anet just implement a simple way to break people out of stealth like, i dunno, getting hit? Then there's your counter play.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> Considering for power spec, you need Power Precision and Ferocity to deal some actual damage while condition only need condition damage (zero expertise is needed for a lot of them considering the duration they have at base is already enough) it kinda does not balance it.

People keep repeating that and its still a completely false narrative.

 

If it was true, then guess what - dire/trailblazer wouldnt be the only viable condi gear, viper would be just like it is in PvE. Because you "only need condi dmg".

 

Condi need *time* to work and guess how you get that? Oh right - sustain. Both toughness and vitality. And of top of that, condi effectivness exponentially **drop** >1 player while power effectivness exponentially **increase** >1 player, making its area of usefullness extremely narrow compared to power.

[Raizel Silverius.6430]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > Considering for power spec, you need Power Precision and Ferocity to deal some actual damage while condition only need condition damage (zero expertise is needed for a lot of them considering the duration they have at base is already enough) it kinda does not balance it.

> People keep repeating that and its still a completely false narrative.

>

> If it was true, then guess what - dire/trailblazer wouldnt be the only viable condi gear, viper would be just like it is in PvE. Because you "only need condi dmg".

 

You just actually prove that my narrative is correct with this line to be honest. Why do you bring dire/trailblazer? cause it gives you TANKINESS while bringing DAMAGE (condi). Can you honestly do that on a Power Spec? Being on the same level of Tankiness with dire/trailblazer while being able to do the same damage relative to the Condi damage that needs *time* brings out?

[diomache.9246]

Still you are far off the point. Condi is by far easier to counter because there are way more tools to do so and it takes way longer to get dangerous even for people that are on full glass berserker gear.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > > Considering for power spec, you need Power Precision and Ferocity to deal some actual damage while condition only need condition damage (zero expertise is needed for a lot of them considering the duration they have at base is already enough) it kinda does not balance it.

> > People keep repeating that and its still a completely false narrative.

> >

> > If it was true, then guess what - dire/trailblazer wouldnt be the only viable condi gear, viper would be just like it is in PvE. Because you "only need condi dmg".

>

> You just actually prove that my narrative is correct with this line to be honest. Why do you bring dire/trailblazer? cause it gives you TANKINESS while bringing DAMAGE (condi). Can you honestly do that on a Power Spec? Being on the same level of Tankiness with dire/trailblazer while being able to do the same damage relative to the Condi damage that needs *time* brings out?

 

Uh, yes. Have you never seen a Spellbreaker, Dragonhunter, Soulbeast, Ranger, Weaver, Firebrand, Guardian, Warrior, Holosmith, Scrapper or Necromancer? All of which can sustain for an incredibly long time with _power builds_ while also doing exceptional damage? There is a core Ranger build right now that has very high Boon uptime, is nearly immune to Conditions and can do very high damage.

 

There are plenty of Power builds that can sustain just as well, if not better, than many of the available Condition builds.

[saerni.2584]

Most of the people running Condi builds that’s do serious damage are actually running hybrids that do significant power damage.

 

If you look at the condi tanks, like necro, the amount of tank is less about Dire and more because necromancer already has significant HP and mitigation methods. Core shroud is very good at mitigating power damage.

 

And the damage isn’t that much unless you are very glassy and don’t have that much cleanse yourself.

 

I kill those tank necros all the time. They are super tanky but their damage is nothing like Holo or Soulbeast or Power guardian. Those burst hard and can usually sustain nicely but hit 4 or 5 times the burst.

 

Necro, if they win with condi, does it by wearing me down over time. That’s actually what condi is meant to do.

 

And, I need to repeat this again every time this topic comes up: balance issues with particular builds or professions are not issues with condi. It’s an issue with those builds. Balance isn’t about removing an entire damage type when you are actually complaining about one profession.

[Aeolus.3615]

Some condition are in in fact strong, and they can become quite strong to OP under certain circunstances, but maube the issue is that the toons on high condi damage are sturdy, i think this is the real issue.....

 

ok some condis can burst quite strong initially if spiked well... but the mail issue m8 be theyu are also sturdy, maybe condi stats need to be revised.

[Raizel Silverius.6430]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > > > Considering for power spec, you need Power Precision and Ferocity to deal some actual damage while condition only need condition damage (zero expertise is needed for a lot of them considering the duration they have at base is already enough) it kinda does not balance it.

> > > People keep repeating that and its still a completely false narrative.

> > >

> > > If it was true, then guess what - dire/trailblazer wouldnt be the only viable condi gear, viper would be just like it is in PvE. Because you "only need condi dmg".

> >

> > You just actually prove that my narrative is correct with this line to be honest. Why do you bring dire/trailblazer? cause it gives you TANKINESS while bringing DAMAGE (condi). Can you honestly do that on a Power Spec? Being on the same level of Tankiness with dire/trailblazer while being able to do the same damage relative to the Condi damage that needs *time* brings out?

>

> Uh, yes. Have you never seen a Spellbreaker, Dragonhunter, Soulbeast, Ranger, Weaver, Firebrand, Guardian, Warrior, Holosmith, Scrapper or Necromancer? All of which can sustain for an incredibly long time with _power builds_ while also doing exceptional damage? There is a core Ranger build right now that has very high Boon uptime, is nearly immune to Conditions and can do very high damage.

>

> There are plenty of Power builds that can sustain just as well, if not better, than many of the available Condition builds.

 

You mean on Marauder build or SOLDIER? cause I'm going on the SOLDIER route of being tanky as comparison for Trailblazer/Dire sets.

 

Also, we did kinda divert quite a bit to my statement that in order for power spec to deal actual damage, they need to use 3 stats (power, precision and ferocity) and for condi, you need condition damage.

 

With this, in what way was my statement incorrect? (since you already agreed that you did prove that said statement was correct)

[Shroud.2307]

> @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > > > > Considering for power spec, you need Power Precision and Ferocity to deal some actual damage while condition only need condition damage (zero expertise is needed for a lot of them considering the duration they have at base is already enough) it kinda does not balance it.

> > > > People keep repeating that and its still a completely false narrative.

> > > >

> > > > If it was true, then guess what - dire/trailblazer wouldnt be the only viable condi gear, viper would be just like it is in PvE. Because you "only need condi dmg".

> > >

> > > You just actually prove that my narrative is correct with this line to be honest. Why do you bring dire/trailblazer? cause it gives you TANKINESS while bringing DAMAGE (condi). Can you honestly do that on a Power Spec? Being on the same level of Tankiness with dire/trailblazer while being able to do the same damage relative to the Condi damage that needs *time* brings out?

> >

> > Uh, yes. Have you never seen a Spellbreaker, Dragonhunter, Soulbeast, Ranger, Weaver, Firebrand, Guardian, Warrior, Holosmith, Scrapper or Necromancer? All of which can sustain for an incredibly long time with _power builds_ while also doing exceptional damage? There is a core Ranger build right now that has very high Boon uptime, is nearly immune to Conditions and can do very high damage.

> >

> > There are plenty of Power builds that can sustain just as well, if not better, than many of the available Condition builds.

>

> You mean on Marauder build or SOLDIER? cause I'm going on the SOLDIER route of being tanky as comparison for Trailblazer/Dire sets.

>

> Also, we did kinda divert quite a bit to my statement that in order for power spec to deal actual damage, they need to use 3 stats (power, precision and ferocity) and for condi, you need condition damage.

>

> With this, in what way was my statement incorrect? (since you already agreed that you did prove that said statement was correct)

 

I was referring to this

 

> Why do you bring dire/trailblazer? cause it gives you TANKINESS while bringing DAMAGE (condi). Can you honestly do that on a Power Spec?

 

You cannot do full Dire and expect to do good damage _(unless you're a Thief because it applies many Conditions at once via Steal and has poor sustained Condition application)._ A moderate amount of Expertise is necessary. If we assume Condition builds are all "tanky" because they have the benefit of Toughness and Vitality, that also means they _do not_ have the benefit of Boon Duration. Condition builds rely on innate durability while many Power builds cannot, but can work in Boon Duration to further enhance their damage and defenses.

 

Commander and Diviner stats, as well as the popular Durability runes, are just a few examples of stats common in Power builds that allow them to gain some Boon Duration without sacrificing much damage. Might and Fury often help to alleviate what ever offensive stats they give up while Protection, Regeneration, Resistance, Stability, etc. enhance their defenses.

 

I do not disagree that Dire and Trailblazer are very durable stats and that Condition builds require less stats to do damage. **I do disagree** that Power builds cannot be tanky _unless they do no damage._ They just require Boons instead.

 

Bottom line is that both Power and Condition builds have positives and negatives. The difference between the two is that as time has gone on, one has become much easier to passively counter while the other has become harder. Sigil of Cleansing removes three Conditions on top of the many traits that every profession has available to it that also remove Conditions. Resistance also exists which some professions can greatly lengthen the effects of. Then you have the trait that most professions have which will cleanse all debilitating Conditions _(Chill, Cripple, Immobilize - Speed Of Shadows, Unstoppable Union, two examples of this)_ which makes it harder to lock players down and kite, something that's needed while the Conditions do their work wearing a player down.

 

I am 110% certain that there are more plentiful and more durable Power builds out there than there are Condition builds. That may not be the exact point you were making, but it isn't another point entirely either.

[UmbraNoctis.1907]

> @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > > > > Considering for power spec, you need Power Precision and Ferocity to deal some actual damage while condition only need condition damage (zero expertise is needed for a lot of them considering the duration they have at base is already enough) it kinda does not balance it.

> > > > People keep repeating that and its still a completely false narrative.

> > > >

> > > > If it was true, then guess what - dire/trailblazer wouldnt be the only viable condi gear, viper would be just like it is in PvE. Because you "only need condi dmg".

> > >

> > > You just actually prove that my narrative is correct with this line to be honest. Why do you bring dire/trailblazer? cause it gives you TANKINESS while bringing DAMAGE (condi). Can you honestly do that on a Power Spec? Being on the same level of Tankiness with dire/trailblazer while being able to do the same damage relative to the Condi damage that needs *time* brings out?

> >

> > Uh, yes. Have you never seen a Spellbreaker, Dragonhunter, Soulbeast, Ranger, Weaver, Firebrand, Guardian, Warrior, Holosmith, Scrapper or Necromancer? All of which can sustain for an incredibly long time with _power builds_ while also doing exceptional damage? There is a core Ranger build right now that has very high Boon uptime, is nearly immune to Conditions and can do very high damage.

> >

> > There are plenty of Power builds that can sustain just as well, if not better, than many of the available Condition builds.

>

> You mean on Marauder build or SOLDIER? cause I'm going on the SOLDIER route of being tanky as comparison for Trailblazer/Dire sets.

>

> Also, we did kinda divert quite a bit to my statement that in order for power spec to deal actual damage, they need to use 3 stats (power, precision and ferocity) and for condi, you need condition damage.

>

> With this, in what way was my statement incorrect? (since you already agreed that you did prove that said statement was correct)

 

For maximum dmg output condi needs condition dmg, expertise, precision, power and ferocity. Tho the value of precision, power and ferocity will vary depending on the specific class/build and even the benefit of expertise can be highly diminished against opponents with lot's of cleanses. This means condi builds often run only condi dmg and maybe expertise as their only offensive stats, not because it is the "only stat they need", but because they don't gain enough dmg from using more offensive stats to justify the resulting lack of survivability.

Some power builds can also drop precision and/or ferocity, eg some ranger builds can drop crit chance due to guaranted crits from opening strikes without losing burst. Vision sigil is also a thing that allows something similar (you might be surprised how many players you can actually kill on a full soldier build).

 

Additionally, as @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" already pointed out, survivability isn't just a matter of stats (same with dmg), but a lot more dependent on traits and skills, which means it is possible for a zerker build to be be just as survival, if not more, than some dire/tb builds. So only looking at stats is pointless.

 

Dire/TB stats might not always be balanced, but removing those would also be imbalanced, because other condi stats tend to be straight worse than zerk/marauder for most classes and even with those tanky condi stats being a thing, condi builds tend to be rather niche and power builds are still superior in many situations.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> Also, we did kinda divert quite a bit to my statement that in order for power spec to deal actual damage, they need to use 3 stats (power, precision and ferocity) and for condi, you need condition damage.

Condition, toughness and vitality was 3 stats as well last I checked. Because you need all 3 to do damage with something over time while you are getting pounded to the ground by insane power damage.

 

But you apparently choose to completely ignore that.

 

At *best* I would argue that two stats are "needed" - condition + toughness or condition + vitality, like the good old gear stats pre HoT. But the power meta of 4 stat combos threw that completely out the window and made it unviable, combined with new skills, runes and sigils.

 

Ultimately, what are we disputing here exactly?

 

We see meta power builds win daily, it's common in roaming and it dominate zerging. Or is that a myth?

[jsp.6912]

condi is realy not a problem, the right problem is kind of stuff retard like traiblazzer for condi, minstrel for support or other with full def stat.

this kind of stat carry so hard bad player who can be like unkillable

[ASP.8093]

> @"jsp.6912" said:

> condi is realy not a problem, the right problem is kind of stuff kitten like traiblazzer for condi, minstrel for support or other with full def stat.

> this kind of stat carry so hard bad player who can be like unkillable

 

You could just as easily argue that it's not Minstrel and Trailblazer that's carrying players but the huge volume of active and passive sustain from defensive skills and trait lines -- huge Protection uptimes, constant boon generation that negates boon removal, generous access to block and evade, powerful "fight-resetting" heals like Infuse Light. Toughness compounds the value of all that stuff, but if you just somehow slap 3.5k Toughness on a glass cannon build, it wouldn't really be much better than finding a trait combo that gives you tons of Prot.

[jsp.6912]

> @"ASP.8093" said:

> > @"jsp.6912" said:

> > condi is realy not a problem, the right problem is kind of stuff kitten like traiblazzer for condi, minstrel for support or other with full def stat.

> > this kind of stat carry so hard bad player who can be like unkillable

>

> You could just as easily argue that it's not Minstrel and Trailblazer that's carrying players but the huge volume of active and passive sustain from defensive skills and trait lines -- huge Protection uptimes, constant boon generation that negates boon removal, generous access to block and evade, powerful "fight-resetting" heals like Infuse Light. Toughness compounds the value of all that stuff, but if you just somehow slap 3.5k Toughness on a glass cannon build, it wouldn't really be much better than finding a trait combo that gives you tons of Prot.

 

obviously not just if i take an exemple in pvp like condi class there is necro core who is good rest is garbage, in wvw you can play what you want in condi why ? because Trailbazer is retard as fuck, same thing for minstrel.

 

this kind of stat were still broken before the nerf damage, now it's worst and even more retard as fuck