[Suggestion] A Proper Trading System Between Players

[RoseofGilead.8907]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> i like to have P2P trades, the amount of times i wanted to help a player by just giving a weapon but can't.

> if i could just drop the weapon it would change things but now i have to set up mail, explain how that works and only then the player has the weapon.

> with P2P i can just trade it outright and all the player has to do is accept, really dumb decision not to add simple trading....

 

I'm not sure what the issue here is, if you're just trying to send someone an item without setting up a trade or payment. All you have to do is send the item to them in the mail. I'm sure they'd notice the New Mail icon without you having to explain it to them.

[RoseofGilead.8907]

> @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> If you don't have the cash up front to make a sell listing for an expensive item, you can always use the sell it now option to satisfy a buy order.

 

You still pay the Listing Fee and Exchange fee, regardless of whether you did a listing or sold instantly.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

 

> i like to have P2P trades, the amount of times i wanted to help a player by just giving a weapon but can't.

Can't? Just mail it to them.

 

 

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"DakotaCoty.5721" said:

> > @Seera.5916 said:

> > No matter how ANet did it, player to player trading would result in scams. And ANet has come out many times on the old forums to say they have no plans on adding player to player transactions like they did in GW1.

> >

> > Just because other MMO's have it, doesn't mean GW2 should have it.

> >

> > Pros of person to person trade:

> > * No listing fees

> > * You get your items immediately, no need to go to a trading post

> >

> > Cons of person to person trade:

> > * Chance of being scammed is always present no matter what ANet does.

> > * Loss of listing fees means inflation has one fewer check as fewer people use the gold sink that is the trading post listing fees.

> > * Spamming of map chat and/or LFG for people looking to trade person to person.

> >

> > To me, the cons outweigh the benefits.

> >

> > The trading post is also player to player trading. It just utilizes a middleman who charges a fee to keep sellers and buyers anonymous. It also allows for the exchange of goods between the EU and NA servers.

>

> I'm sorry but being scammed with P2P trading is a matter of natural selection rather than actual design flaw. Any trade you make, whether in game or RL should be made with due care.

 

Alternatively, we just don't add the potential, and everyone wins, except the potential scammers. Win/Win.

[mtpelion.4562]

> @"RoseofGilead.8907" said:

> > @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> > If you don't have the cash up front to make a sell listing for an expensive item, you can always use the sell it now option to satisfy a buy order.

>

> You still pay the Listing Fee and Exchange fee, regardless of whether you did a listing or sold instantly.

 

Yes, but you don't have to front the listing fee, it gets taken out of the proceeds.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said:

> > > @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> > > If you don't have the cash up front to make a sell listing for an expensive item, you can always use the sell it now option to satisfy a buy order.

> >

> > You still pay the Listing Fee and Exchange fee, regardless of whether you did a listing or sold instantly.

>

> Yes, but you don't have to front the listing fee, it gets taken out of the proceeds.

 

You still have to front the listing fee. If there's no gold in your account, you can't sell anything, even to highest buy offer.

 

* Use all the gold in your account to put in a buy offer for a confetti infusion (or several if you have more than 10k liquid gold)

* Then try to sell anything at all.

* The TP informs you: "You do not have enough coin to pay the listing fee."

 

(The _exchange_ fee reduces the amount you get from the buyer, so in effect, it's the buyer who pays it, not the seller, which is why the seller only needs 5% in the wallet for the listing fee, not 10% for the exchange fee, nor 15% for both.)

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

There are all sorts of ways that people scam in player-to-player trades. Many of them depend on one of the parties not paying attention or expecting to get more for less (and getting scammed of anything). There are scams that depend on people not looking carefully at icons or amounts. Scams that rely on one side knowing better about the market, e.g. buying an item with little coin, when it can be turned around in the mystic forge for big coin.

 

The TP cuts all that out: everyone always pays market rate because everyone participates in the market. And it's one of the best (if not the best) gold sinks in the industry.

 

In contrast, there's no MMO with a so-called "proper P2P trading system" that prevents scams, which means it's a support nightmare for the studio. Even if none of the complainants have a case, the studio would still need to investigate to determine what might (or might not) have happened. And if they don't, well, then, we already have that sort of P2P system in the game: use email. People who want can trade all they like without paying listing or exchange fees.

 

For ANet, the best part of the current system is: they don't have to do anything to make it work; it's already in the game. Setting up a new P2P system, even in the theoretical universe in which no one gets scammed, that's a huge amount of work.

 

I definitely miss the community of traders from other games. For those of us who like to barter, it's a great way to meet like-minded folks, pass the time. But it's worth giving up, in my strong opinion, for the system we have now, which is a lot more fair to the vast majority of players who don't care to pay close attention to the markets.

[NuhDah.9812]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said:

> > > > @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> > > > If you don't have the cash up front to make a sell listing for an expensive item, you can always use the sell it now option to satisfy a buy order.

> > >

> > > You still pay the Listing Fee and Exchange fee, regardless of whether you did a listing or sold instantly.

> >

> > Yes, but you don't have to front the listing fee, it gets taken out of the proceeds.

>

> You still have to front the listing fee. If there's no gold in your account, you can't sell anything, even to highest buy offer.

>

> * Use all the gold in your account to put in a buy offer for a confetti infusion (or several if you have more than 10k liquid gold)

> * Then try to sell anything at all.

> * The TP informs you: "You do not have enough coin to pay the listing fee."

>

> (The _exchange_ fee reduces the amount you get from the buyer, so in effect, it's the buyer who pays it, not the seller, which is why the seller only needs 5% in the wallet for the listing fee, not 10% for the exchange fee, nor 15% for both.)

 

I understand what you say, but in the end you're still only getting 85% of the listed price, 5% payed by you for listing, 10% payed by the buyer for buying... so in total 15% difference from the listed price. You say the buyer is paying it, but actually it's more like he's paying it with the transaction money which are not their's anymore at that point, it's the seller that gets less then listed number out of the deal, while the buyer pays according to the listed price. It's easy to get fooled by the number you list your items with and every seller usually expects to be able to easily check out their profits without subtracting 15% of the price listed there... it's probably a little bit of transparency issue as I see it.

[Ashen.2907]

I miss the social aspects of trading. Also, in GW1 and other games, I would frequently trade items well below market value in order to help out newer players without giving true handouts. Here I cant do that.

 

So I restrict my social interactions to players I know in real life, and an inner circle of guildies. To some significant degree, for me, GW2 has created an environment where other players are essentially NPCs. Sure I respond to calls for help, but with a mindset similar to helping an event or heart npc.

 

Sure the lack of trading is not the sole contributor to the perception of lack of social interaction in gw2, but it does contribute for me.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > (The _exchange_ fee reduces the amount you get from the buyer, so in effect, it's the buyer who pays it, not the seller, which is why the seller only needs 5% in the wallet for the listing fee, not 10% for the exchange fee, nor 15% for both.)

>

> I understand what you say, but in the end you're still only getting 85% of the listed price, 5% payed by you for listing, 10% payed by the buyer for buying... so in total 15% difference from the listed price. You say the buyer is paying it, but actually it's more like he's paying it with the transaction money which are not their's anymore at that point, it's the seller that get's less then listed out of the deal, while the buyer pays according to the listed price.

 

Sure, mathematically, there's no difference in how we describe the transaction: for a 100 gold sale price, the seller's wallet ends up with 85 more gold, the buyer's wallet is reduced by 100g, and Evon Gnashblade has 15g to spend trying to win the next election for Captain's Council.

 

However, we can identify the source of the monies involved:

* The seller's wallet must have 5g to list the item for 100g and it needs not a copper more.

* That 5g immediately goes to Gnashblade, regardless of what happens after.

* The buyer's wallet must have 100g to pay the asking price, not a copper less.

* The seller's TP pick up window will end up with 90g of the buyer's 100g; the other 10g goes to EG.

 

Accordingly, it's technically more accurate to say that the buyer pays for the exchange fee; the seller only pays the listing fee and never sees the 10g from the exchange fee.

Regardless, and as you explain it, the end result is the same: the buyer still pays the full price, the seller keeps only 85%.

[Dreddo.9865]

The trading system we already have is one of the best (if not the best) I have experienced in all MMOs I have played so far. There is not any need for P2P trading.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

> @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> > > > @"RoseofGilead.8907" said:

> > > > > @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> > > > > If you don't have the cash up front to make a sell listing for an expensive item, you can always use the sell it now option to satisfy a buy order.

> > > >

> > > > You still pay the Listing Fee and Exchange fee, regardless of whether you did a listing or sold instantly.

> > >

> > > Yes, but you don't have to front the listing fee, it gets taken out of the proceeds.

> >

> > You still have to front the listing fee. If there's no gold in your account, you can't sell anything, even to highest buy offer.

> >

> > * Use all the gold in your account to put in a buy offer for a confetti infusion (or several if you have more than 10k liquid gold)

> > * Then try to sell anything at all.

> > * The TP informs you: "You do not have enough coin to pay the listing fee."

> >

> > (The _exchange_ fee reduces the amount you get from the buyer, so in effect, it's the buyer who pays it, not the seller, which is why the seller only needs 5% in the wallet for the listing fee, not 10% for the exchange fee, nor 15% for both.)

>

> I understand what you say, but in the end you're still only getting 85% of the listed price, 5% payed by you for listing, 10% payed by the buyer for buying... so in total 15% difference from the listed price. You say the buyer is paying it, but actually it's more like he's paying it with the transaction money which are not their's anymore at that point, it's the seller that gets less then listed number out of the deal, while the buyer pays according to the listed price. It's easy to get fooled by the number you list your items with and every seller usually expects to be able to easily check out their profits without subtracting 15% of the price listed there... it's probably a little bit of transparency issue as I see it.

 

It's easy, and transparent, to see the actual amount (profit) a Seller will receive: just mouse-over the selling price in the TP window; the TP does the math (subtracts the fees) for you.

 

Good luck.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> But if trading and scamming would mean to lose your account, the chances would be really Low.

Two words: stolen accounts.

 

And for those that want a direct trading system to avoid TP tax: what makes you think that if anet ever made such a system, they _wouldn't_ attach a tax on top of it?

 

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> Care to enlighten me how poeple can get scammed by using a p2p-trading-system? Literally every MMORPG I've played thus far featured a system where you see what you'll get and you'll only get it if both parties have agreed upon the trade. It is literally impossible to get scammed with such a system. The only reason against such a system would be inflation, else such a system would at least add some sort of socialization between players. Not that the game already suffers from being one of the least sociable MMORPGs...

 

The reason that we don’t have p2p trade is because of trading scams. People will find a way to scam others by lying or using distraction tactics, then support gets involved which costs ANet money.

 

Here are common trade scams in gw1 using the features where you see what you trade and both sides accept the trade. Gw2 scammers can’t use all these but they can find other things to lie about or ways to scam.

 

>[Trade scams](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Scam#Trade_scams)

>Some scammers abuse the trade window, usually with a visual trick, to get you to accept a trade you do not want to make.

 

>**Customization** — The scammer attempts to sell an item that has been customized by (falsely) stating that it can be re-customized. In order to prevent this, the game displays a message warning buyers that customized items can never be used by other characters. Often, when a new item is introduced, scammers claim that it has somehow changed the way customization works; this has never been true. For example, some people claimed that there was a bug with Pink Dye that let players re-customize weapons.

 

>**Modification** — The scammer makes a fair or generous offer, but makes an excuse as to why they can’t accept (such as “Gotta answer the phone” or “Inventory is full, lemme visit storage”). While you are distracted, they change some part of the trade, swapping out items or changing the gold amount, and hope that you don’t notice and accept anyway.

 

>**Gold amount** — The scammer relies on the appearance of the gold and platinum counters to offer a similar-looking amount of gold (decimal places are easy to miss). This is often when buying a high-end item whose price exceeds the maximum that can be traded (the scammer offers 100 Gold instead of the maximum 100 Platinum). Check gold amounts carefully before accepting.

 

>**Icon match** — The scammer offers items that have the same icon, but different values. For example, Lilac Eyes look like Rubies, and Ice looks like Sapphire. Similarly, kits or consumables look the same regardless of the number of uses remaining. Always mouse-over items to see their description before accepting.

 

>**Sequential quantities of stacked items** - The scammer offers sequential trades (such as is common where the desired quantity of stackable items total more than 100 platinum) and uses the shape/size of the icon, and the altered background color of a filled trade window to obscure an altered quantity offered in one of the additional trades. The scammer will typically log out immediately after completing the altered quantity trade. This scam relies upon the hurried actions of completing several trades, and the failure to carefully read the listed item, especially in instances with items sharing similar icons such as Icy Lodestone/Glacial Stone, Mursaat Token/Glob of Ectoplasm and others. Always read the listed items as well as mouse over the icon(s) before clicking "accept", in each instance of a series of trades.

 

[Zaraki.5784]

Why do you want a "Trading System Between Players" when we already have the TP which is the best?

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> Why do you want a "Trading System Between Players" when we already have the TP which is the best?

 

Greed.

[geochan.9184]

The tax you pay goes to the government and improvements of the cities.

 

Don't evade taxes.

[Shirlias.8104]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > But if trading and scamming would mean to lose your account, the chances would be really Low.

> Two words: stolen accounts.

>

> And for those that want a direct trading system to avoid TP tax: what makes you think that if anet ever made such a system, they _wouldn't_ attach a tax on top of it?

>

 

Stolen accounts won't have any double check password ( pw + mobile verification ), and also won't have any confirmed previous trade ( there will be provvided record in order to grant for the one who use it, the more he decides to trade ).

 

It would be the first time an account, which is elegible for trading outside the tp because of its ap, will make a trade.

 

The one which wants to trade with him will consider it. But to say that he should or shouldn't it's up to him.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > But if trading and scamming would mean to lose your account, the chances would be really Low.

> > Two words: stolen accounts.

> >

> > And for those that want a direct trading system to avoid TP tax: what makes you think that if anet ever made such a system, they _wouldn't_ attach a tax on top of it?

> >

>

> Stolen accounts won't have any double check password ( pw + mobile verification ), and also won't have any confirmed previous trade ( there will be provvided record in order to grant for the one who use it, the more he decides to trade ).

>

> It would be the first time an account, which is elegible for trading outside the tp because of its ap, will make a trade.

>

> The one which wants to trade with him will consider it. But to say that he should or shouldn't it's up to him.

 

Why won’t it have the double check. If they stole the account then they’ll have the password. If the person doesn’t have the verification they can then get into the account information and set it up (That’s one of the known ways they lock the true owners out of their own account. People have posted on the forum and Reddit how their stolen account has the thief’s mobile verification set up). As for not having any confirmed trades, what makes you think they won’t? I’m sure accounts that have traded before can have their account stolen also.

 

Edit: if they can get into the account email and find the information from the purchase they can contact support, be confirmed as the owner using information from the email, have support remove any mobile verification and then change the password and put in their own verification.

[blambidy.3216]

There would have to be a system. Like first accept trade before you each can see each other’s inventory or bank etc. second there should probably be a value of what your trading and the only way to trade, is it both players make equal value in trade. Kind of like how trading players in nba get traded.

 

Say you want to trade Kobe to a team, well Kobe is worth 30 mill. So to make the other team give equal value so the lakers don’t empty their cap space, the other team adds 3 10 mill players. Or 4 8 mill players and a draft pick.

 

The only problem is even though let’s say someone traded elonian leather, giving a bunch of mithril and iron would be bs since gw2 has the day cap.

 

So I could see why ArenaNet hasn’t implemented it. It can be good for guilds helping new players by giving them things. However it can be bad because there are a lot of people who will take advantage of new players. As much as us new players try to keep closed. There’s many mistakes we do in the beginning that, having someone taking advantage of us makes it worse.

 

Like for example. If your going to start crafting for ascended, you don’t realize how valuable globs of ectoplasm are. Agony infusions, the matrixes you get from fractals, etc. then when someone asks, is newbies will be like here. But later on realizing how hard it is to get it when you need it is annoying.

 

As long as ArenaNet sets a system so that doesn’t happen then I’m all for it.

[Ameepa.6793]

[10:21] WTS 250 potatoes

[10:21] WTS 250 potatoes

[10:21] WTS Sword of Swinging

[10:22] WTS 250 potatoes

[10:22] Hi all!

[10:23] WTS Sword of Swinging

[10:24] WTS 250 potatoes

[10:24 WTS Sword of Swinging

[10:25] WTS 250 potatoes

[10:25] WTS 250 potatoes

[10:25] Potato seller is a scammer!!!

[10:26] WTS Sword of Swinging

...

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"blambidy.3216" said:

> Say you want to trade Kobe to a team, well Kobe is worth 30 mill. So to make the other team give equal value so the lakers don’t empty their cap space, the other team adds 3 10 mill players. Or 4 8 mill players and a draft pick.

And how you'd decide on Kobe's worth? It's not even that simple in the case of TP items with relatively stable prices (the difference between buy and sell orders can in some cases be significant). What about items with high prices but low supply? What if said items switched completely to the new system? How would you decide on a price then? And if that devolved on players making the trade, how would you prevent one of them from trying to take advantage on the other? (Gw1 trade system is a good example showing that it's not really possible to prevent that in direct transactions)

 

> @"blambidy.3216" said:

> As long as ArenaNet sets a system so that doesn’t happen then I’m all for it.

They already have - the Trading Post. Why would they want to set up another, that would be, by its very nature, _more_ prone to scams? And why would they want to set up a system that, in addition to being more prone to scams wouldn't be a gold sink (via taxes)?

 

In reality, TP has only _one_ limitation that can be reasonably complained about (and even that one is likely intentional). It's the transaction value cap. All the others may be considered flaws by individual playes, but are important features as seen by Anet, so it's unlikely they'd create a new system that would allow to circumvent them. TP tax being the primary example.

 

 

[blambidy.3216]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"blambidy.3216" said:

> > As long as ArenaNet sets a system so that doesn’t happen then I’m all for it.

> They already have - the Trading Post. Why would they want to set up another, that would be, by its very nature, _more_ prone to scams? And why would they want to set up a system that, in addition to being more prone to scams wouldn't be a gold sink (via taxes)?

>

> In reality, TP has only _one_ limitation that can be reasonably complained about (and even that one is likely intentional). It's the transaction value cap. All the others may be considered flaws by individual playes, but are important features as seen by Anet, so it's unlikely they'd create a new system that would allow to circumvent them. TP tax being the primary example.

>

>

 

Cause sometimes tp has disappointments. And sometimes trading to a friend is better then coughing up gold, if you have equal value. Yes there is mailing but the fact that having someone near you instead up lookin up their username is just a little more simple.

 

I agree there is the tp. But not all times the tp gives equal value. When the value of a mat dips when you know the price is wrong. And when random people over price a mat and then thousands of people follow it. For example right now everything is skyrocket because the gold to gems conversion is just crazy high. When I started gw2 2 years ago , 100 gold to gems was high but 124 gold for 400 gems? Over priced. And then sooner or later when the next expansion happens, gold to gems gets down to about 80 gold for 400 gems. So selling to get more money is more tough. It’s more like day trading then actual set concrete value. Which makes things hard to determine.

 

Sometimes it’s better to trade.

 

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"blambidy.3216" said:

> Cause sometimes tp has disappointments.

Can you provide some examples of what you mean by this? thanks.

 

> And sometimes trading to a friend is better then coughing up gold, if you have equal value. Yes there is mailing but the fact that having someone near you instead up lookin up their username is just a little more simple.

"Someone near you" hardly qualifies as a friend.

 

 

> I agree there is the tp. But not all times the tp gives equal value.

The TP always offers market rates. By definition.

 

> When the value of a mat dips when you know the price is wrong.

If you disagree with the market, nothing is stopping you from listing at the higher price. But good luck finding any buyers who would be willing to pay you extra, when they can see the TP prices.

 

> And when random people over price a mat and then thousands of people follow it.

Why would you say that 1000s of people are wrong about the price?

 

> For example right now everything is skyrocket because the gold to gems conversion is just crazy high. When I started gw2 2 years ago , 100 gold to gems was high but 124 gold for 400 gems?

It's been 100-140 gold (per 400 gems) for several years. It very rarely dips below 100; it's risen about 140 even less often. Typically, it's been trading at 105-115.

 

> Over priced. And then sooner or later when the next expansion happens, gold to gems gets down to about 80 gold for 400 gems. So selling to get more money is more tough. It’s more like day trading then actual set concrete value. Which makes things hard to determine.

Again, why is your idea of "overpriced" more important than everyone else's?

 

 

> Sometimes it’s better to trade.

What times are those, other than to avoid TP fees, for guild-related trades (decorations or shovels), or services?

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

It's really pretty simple

* For trades between friends that trust each other: **Mail** - no drawback compared to p2p trade, also don't need to be in same place at same time.

* For regular trades: **TP** - absolutely no risk of scamming, always market price, no need for trade chat spam.

* For item-to-item traded with someone you don't trust enough for above method: **Mail via middle-man/escrow holder** - highly niche and not something ANet wants to handle, there are communities with established, trusted escrow holders.

 

I do think the max price on the TP should be increased, to try to get some of the super-expensive infusion trades back off the grey market - primarily to get them into the fee system as that's a significant chunk of gold that would disappear each trade. I don't see it as a high priority though.