Optimization 2020

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"coso.9173" said:

> > by some comments we would still be playing Atari games, since any improvement means some people won't be able to play newer games with higher requirements.

> >

>

> Well, that's absurd. No one is saying new games can't be developed with higher requirements. What is important here is that if you are a customer of a game and you purchase that gaming service, the provider better think VERY hard about the consequences of providing an upgrade to that service if it has a negative impact on customers that purchased that service based on it's _original_ requirements.

Not only that, but the studio has to consider whether or not it is worth the investment of time/resources to stop production on the current game and begin production on a new and improved one (or to allocate those same resources into trying to add/change/delete the existing programming). I'm sure that their shareholders have an opinion on that decision.

 

[Yggranya.5201]

> @"krz.1327" said:

> I don't understand why won't they at least give us an option to turn off other people's combat effects. Not only they lower fps but also you can't see anything, combat in gw2 is just looking at numbers, you can't see enemies or your character.

 

Simple: Think of the savings!

[maddoctor.2738]

On the topic of optimization, the latest version of dx12py does look stable and fixed some old issues, so a big thank you to the modder doing Anet's job.

For those interested, you can find some more information here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/110553/want-to-use-directx-12-dx12-for-gw2-heres-a-guide-on-using-the-d912pxy-on-windows-10

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Well, that's absurd. No one is saying new games can't be developed with higher requirements. What is important here is that if you are a customer of a game and you purchase that gaming service, the provider better think VERY hard about the consequences of providing an upgrade to that service if it has a negative impact on customers that purchased that service based on it's _original_ requirements.

 

The changes to the game already have a negative impact on customers that purchased the original service, as is evident by the rapid deterioration of performance of Guild Wars 2 in the last few years.

 

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> Not only that, but the studio has to consider whether or not it is worth the investment of time/resources to stop production on the current game and begin production on a new and improved one (or to allocate those same resources into trying to add/change/delete the existing programming). I'm sure that their shareholders have an opinion on that decision.

 

I'm sure they can't "spare" any resources to do a job similar to the one a simple modder is doing. Not like Anet doesn't already have an engine team (consisting of multiple people if I may add) right? They don't need to hire anyone or "allocate resources", they already have the resources, they are just misusing them.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

 

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > Not only that, but the studio has to consider whether or not it is worth the investment of time/resources to stop production on the current game and begin production on a new and improved one (or to allocate those same resources into trying to add/change/delete the existing programming). I'm sure that their shareholders have an opinion on that decision.

>

> I'm sure they can't "spare" any resources to do a job similar to the one a simple modder is doing. Not like Anet doesn't already have an engine team (consisting of multiple people if I may add) right? They don't need to hire anyone or "allocate resources", they already have the resources, they are just misusing them.

You can cite your source of this knowledge? You know that Anet has enough resources to divide between projects? You know that the resources that they have (plentiful, apparently?) could be better used than they currently are?

 

(sigh)

 

No one here knows these things. "I"m sure" that if Anet had the resources, then they would be working on this already. Since it appears that they aren't, and in absence of any evidence to say otherwise, we can only assume that they are doing what they can with what they have.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> The changes to the game already have a negative impact on customers that purchased the original service, as is evident by the rapid deterioration of performance of Guild Wars 2 in the last few years.

Right I already mentioned that ... so the actions that Anet take to correct that need to be considered very carefully. Rushing into demanding upgrade to a new engine at their own cost is absurd and contrived, especially when not everyone is affected in the same manner by the deterioration of performance and there are other solutions to consider.

>

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > Not only that, but the studio has to consider whether or not it is worth the investment of time/resources to stop production on the current game and begin production on a new and improved one (or to allocate those same resources into trying to add/change/delete the existing programming). I'm sure that their shareholders have an opinion on that decision.

>

> I'm sure they can't "spare" any resources to do a job similar to the one a simple modder is doing. Not like Anet doesn't already have an engine team (consisting of multiple people if I may add) right? They don't need to hire anyone or "allocate resources", they already have the resources, they are just misusing them.

 

I'm sure you actually have **no** idea if they can spare resources to do that or not or what people are working on or used for at Anet.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> You can cite your source of this knowledge? You know that Anet has enough resources to divide between projects? You know that the resources that they have (plentiful, apparently?) could be better used than they currently are?

 

You are really underestimating the importance of the engine team and what they are doing for this game. There are countless examples of how they help this game, from the karka shaders, the "wind" in Labyrinthine Cliffs, the legendary armor, the fire of the wyverns, the new rendering introduced in Draconis Mons and loads more. You want me to find sources for all these? They were created by an engine team, a team responsible for the programming/coding of the game's engine. Some of these even worked on Guild Wars 1 in their free time to upgrade the visuals of that ages old game.

 

> No one here knows these things. "I"m sure" that if Anet had the resources, then they would be working on this already. Since it appears that they aren't, and in absence of any evidence to say otherwise, we can only assume that they are doing what they can with what they have.

 

That's assuming it's a problem with the competence of their developers, which I find highly unlikely, as I believe Anet has talented developers. It's more likely an order from above for whatever reason to keep the engine lagging and performing horribly. Maybe it has to do with the system requirements, although that's odd considering how many times those requirements were changed (64bit, new rendering and others)

[kharmin.7683]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> It's more likely an order from above for whatever reason to keep the engine lagging and performing horribly.

That, to me, makes absolutely no business sense.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Right I already mentioned that ... so the actions that Anet take to correct that need to be considered very carefully. Rushing into demanding upgrade to a new engine at their own cost is absurd and contrived, especially when not everyone is affected in the same manner by the deterioration of performance and there are other solutions to consider.

 

Yet they consider launching the game to a brand new audience, with this type of horrible performance. It's as if they want their Steam launch to fail, unless of course they have plans for an engine upgrade before that happens. There is some time until the launch, so if they actually -think- and are concerned about their revenue, they should take that into account.

 

> I'm sure you actually have **no** idea if they can spare resources to do that or not or what people are working on or used for at Anet.

 

I do have an idea and you do as well. I posted some of that idea in my post above.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > It's more likely an order from above for whatever reason to keep the engine lagging and performing horribly.

> That, to me, makes absolutely no business sense.

>

 

Well, then you believe Anet's employees are incompetent and they can't improve the game at least in the same way someone that doesn't work for Arenanet does? I refuse to believe that. dx12py latest version does provide tangible improvements, and it's from a single person working without access to the source code or the game itself. And you are telling me the professional engine team of Anet cannot do anything similar? Other than having orders from above, some weird stuck up higher up, concerned about the minimum requirements having Windows XP while we are in 2020, I can't see another possible explanation here. It's not like they added any engine changes in the Icebrood Saga.

 

Ok the other two possibilities, is that every developer of the engine team was fired during the layoffs OR that they are already working on the much needed engine update to have it ready before the mass bad reviewing starts on Steam, when the game launches there. Because believe me, if it launches in THIS sorry state, there will be tons of bad reviews for this game.

[kharmin.7683]

So, it has nothing to do with the fact that GW2 is based on GW1 code? The same code that the developers who created it are no longer with the company? I'm sure that all of that coding is documented so the current team should have no problem making changes. So, rather than do something that would potentially make more money for the company and its investors, let's instead keep limping along with the current code structure.

 

The truth is that neither you, nor I, nor Obtena, nor anyone else on the forums has any real idea of the situation at Anet. Everyone is speculating and theorizing (and in some posts panicking). There could be many more reasons than what you pointed out, but no one here would know what they are.

 

And, again in my opinion, for a company to make a conscious decision to fail makes no business sense.

[Healix.5819]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> I'm sure they can't "spare" any resources to do a job similar to the one a simple modder is doing.

 

They have no reason to create a DX12 mod themselves when one already exists. Actually implementing DX12 isn't comparable and would take several years to fully accomplish. It's not something they'd even look at if they weren't planning on another 10 years of active development.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> So, it has nothing to do with the fact that GW2 is based on GW1 code? The same code that the developers who created it are no longer with the company? I'm sure that all of that coding is documented so the current team should have no problem making changes.

 

You have a source stating that all the developers that worked on GW1 left Arenanet?

 

> So, rather than do something that would potentially make more money for the company and its investors, let's instead keep limping along with the current code structure.

 

You mean like launching on Steam for a new audience while the game's performance is in such a state? Indeed great idea that will potentially make money for the company and its investors. Or lead to an epic failure instead.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Healix.5819" said:

> They have no reason to create a DX12 mod themselves when one already exists.

 

Like the Action Camera I guess? Someone created a mod providing an excellent action camera mode to the game and it didn't take Anet long to implement similar functionality inside the game. And let's not forget build templates that existed as a mod, until Anet decided to make their own. The "it already exists" argument is rather weak, especially considering how an Anet created DX12 version would have a check box in the settings to active/deactivate it AND provide all the shaders beforehand, without the need of a separate download and/or a lengthy re-compile. And obviously it wouldn't stop working after every update, or at the very least not work on the latest episode zone.

[Astyrah.4015]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Healix.5819" said:

> > They have no reason to create a DX12 mod themselves when one already exists.

>

> Like the Action Camera I guess? Someone created a mod providing an excellent action camera mode to the game and it didn't take Anet long to implement similar functionality inside the game. And let's not forget build templates that existed as a mod, until Anet decided to make their own. The "it already exists" argument is rather weak, especially considering how an Anet created DX12 version would have a check box in the settings to active/deactivate it AND provide all the shaders beforehand, without the need of a separate download and/or a lengthy re-compile. And obviously it wouldn't stop working after every update, or at the very least not work on the latest episode zone.

 

⇑ this. doesnt mean that a mod exists, that arenanet wont make an inhouse version out of it if it checks all the right boxes. arcdps (due to how sensitive and controversial parsers can get among the community) and stuff like taco (due to it basically spoiling the whole completion system) and other similar mods are exceptions to this.

 

__________________________

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Well, that's absurd. No one is saying new games can't be developed with higher requirements. What is important here is that if you are a customer of a game and you purchase that gaming service, the provider better think VERY hard about the consequences of providing an upgrade to that service if it has a negative impact on customers that purchased that service based on it's _original_ requirements.

>

> The changes to the game already have a negative impact on customers that purchased the original service, as is evident by the rapid deterioration of performance of Guild Wars 2 in the last few years.

 

on games/mmorpgs that optimised for newer hardware, such as by implementing dx11 or dx12 -- (_by doing this take note they didn't remaster, nor did they "upgrade" the engine -- "tune up" is a better word for it_) -- like Final Fantasy 14, TERA, World of Warcraft, etc., they all included a separate .exe or a setting you can flip in-game or in the launcher to revert to the "legacy" / "compatibility" mode (like still being able to play a game on dx9 when the dx11 version is main or in WoW's case using dx11 if you don't have dx12 compatible hardware) so these games all took into account people with older hardware who wouldn't benefit from these new changes. meanwhile people with more modern hardware will be able to utilise the newer apis and instructions and output better performance.

 

for the whole player-base, literally no one loses and no one gets less performance.

 

 

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Huh. I don't remember an action-camera 'mod' before the Action Camera feature was added.

But, I do remember the ('Engine') Devs posting about why they wouldn't be changing the engine to incorporate DX12. I suppose some feel they were just making a joke?

[Healix.5819]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> Huh. I don't remember an action-camera 'mod' before the Action Camera feature was added.

 

The game always supported an action camera, it just didn't have the UI for it, so naturally people were originally using AutoHotKey/macros to fake it (hold right click). A mod for it (Combat Mode) was available shortly after launch.

 

> But, I do remember the ('Engine') Devs posting about why they wouldn't be changing the engine to incorporate DX12. I suppose some feel they were just making a joke?

 

Times change - newer systems are optimized for DX12/multi while DX9/single is only worsening. Also, what they said was never entirely accurate, as it was essentially from the perspective of half/poorly implementing DX12.

[Svarty.8019]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"JinxSwe.8914" said:

> > I know this might have been brought up alot of times before.

> > But I love this game. It is my go2 mmo game and has been since it came out. _

> > But what I don't understand is why it's not been optimized at all. 8 Years and nothing has happened on this front.

> > Even with a new cpu the fps tanks down to 12 when ever more players are around. If by your self then it's fine and getting 144 since I have it locked to that.

> > But come on. 8 years and with new expansion coming why not at least move over some of the more taxing things to the gpu?

>

> Because optimization is costly and leaves people with older rigs in the dust. Considering this game can't function without appealing to a large group of people and there isn't a monthly fee, it's a hard case to justify optimization.

 

Well wouldn't it be good if that "large group of people" didn't have performance issues?

Also, if it's supposed to appeal to so many people, why is do they churn so much solo story content out?

 

My proposition would be to dedicate some resources to optimising both the server side and client. I'd also suggest keeping the instanced story content to a minimum in favour of more fun things to do in the open world. This would justify the investment in the optimisation.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Right I already mentioned that ... so the actions that Anet take to correct that need to be considered very carefully. Rushing into demanding upgrade to a new engine at their own cost is absurd and contrived, especially when not everyone is affected in the same manner by the deterioration of performance and there are other solutions to consider.

>

> Yet they consider launching the game to a brand new audience, with this type of horrible performance.

 

That should tell you something about how likely it will be to sell the idea that we need a new engine on their dime now doesn't it ... Honestly, if you don't think this is an indication of how relevant this engine upgrade is to their business model, then there is no case you can make to justify the upgrade at Anet's cost to begin with. Absolutely NONE.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> I do have an idea and you do as well. I posted some of that idea in my post above.

 

No, that's not an idea, it's an assumption and it's a poor one. You and I have NO idea who they have working on what things and assume that these things are not as important as the thing you want Anet to do. Like ZERO idea. There is no reason to make an assumption like you have; it doesn't make the case for a new engine ANY more compelling.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"JinxSwe.8914" said:

> > > I know this might have been brought up alot of times before.

> > > But I love this game. It is my go2 mmo game and has been since it came out. _

> > > But what I don't understand is why it's not been optimized at all. 8 Years and nothing has happened on this front.

> > > Even with a new cpu the fps tanks down to 12 when ever more players are around. If by your self then it's fine and getting 144 since I have it locked to that.

> > > But come on. 8 years and with new expansion coming why not at least move over some of the more taxing things to the gpu?

> >

> > Because optimization is costly and leaves people with older rigs in the dust. Considering this game can't function without appealing to a large group of people and there isn't a monthly fee, it's a hard case to justify optimization.

>

> Well wouldn't it be good if that "large group of people" didn't have performance issues?

> Also, if it's supposed to appeal to so many people, why is do they churn so much solo story content out?

 

It would be good but that doesn't mean Anet just goes out and does it.

>

> My proposition would be to dedicate some resources to optimising both the server side and client. I'd also suggest keeping the instanced story content to a minimum in favour of more fun things to do in the open world. This would justify the investment in the optimisation.

 

Well, you don't know if that justifes the investment ... you need numbers to show that. I mean, if there is a business case for upgrading the engine sure, do it Anet but let's not pretend that we have the information we need to justify that here.

[huluobo.7036]

Optimizing "Guild Wars 2" is very simple. Add the function of customizing the number of people to the map. For example, I only want to enter a map that can only accommodate 10 players. , Do not enter the map with more than 20 people, if you want to make a hundred people stable, you can only change to a higher frequency CPU. Every player wears a different armor model, CPU overclocking is the only solution

[videoboy.4162]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Right I already mentioned that ... so the actions that Anet take to correct that need to be considered very carefully. Rushing into demanding upgrade to a new engine at their own cost is absurd and contrived, especially when not everyone is affected in the same manner by the deterioration of performance and there are other solutions to consider.

> >

> > Yet they consider launching the game to a brand new audience, with this type of horrible performance.

>

> That should tell you something about how likely it will be to sell the idea that we need a new engine on their dime now doesn't it ... Honestly, if you don't think this is an indication of how relevant this engine upgrade is to their business model, then there is no case you can make to justify the upgrade at Anet's cost to begin with. Absolutely NONE.

>

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > I do have an idea and you do as well. I posted some of that idea in my post above.

>

> No, that's not an idea, it's an assumption and it's a poor one. You and I have NO idea who they have working on what things and assume that these things are not as important as the thing you want Anet to do. Like ZERO idea. There is no reason to make an assumption like you have; it doesn't make the case for a new engine ANY more compelling.

>

 

That isn't true at all. They have a comprehensive list on their official wiki that lists most of their employees and most of their functions. They have at least 22 people are their programming team alone. I'm fairly certain that you're arguing just to argue because most of your posts are opinion based with little to no research behind them.

[lare.5129]

1) buy new good PC

2)optimize you graphic settings

 

And don't try change step priority.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> Huh. I don't remember an action-camera 'mod' before the Action Camera feature was added.

 

There was a mod called Combat Mode that was a "hack" that worked similarly to the Action Camera.

 

> But, I do remember the ('Engine') Devs posting about why they wouldn't be changing the engine to incorporate DX12. I suppose some feel they were just making a joke?

 

Regarding DX12, this is what was said:

> As for DX9 and 32bit: Moving off of DX9 wouldn't buy us a whole lot performance wise, as all interaction with DirectX is happening on the render thread, which is generally not the bottleneck.

 

The major bottleneck of the game is the main thread, as confirmed easily by watching task manager while playing. Some of the cores are working overtime, while others are chilling. However, as dx12py proves, we do get performance benefits when moving to DX12. It's not a solution that fixes everything, in cases where the main thread becomes the bottleneck playing with dx12py or without it won't make any kind of difference. But in other situations there IS an actual difference in performance.

 

So moving to DX12 wouldn't be a full solution that solves the problem of the main thread, but it does help with all other situations where the main thread isn't the limit.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"videoboy.4162" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > Right I already mentioned that ... so the actions that Anet take to correct that need to be considered very carefully. Rushing into demanding upgrade to a new engine at their own cost is absurd and contrived, especially when not everyone is affected in the same manner by the deterioration of performance and there are other solutions to consider.

> > >

> > > Yet they consider launching the game to a brand new audience, with this type of horrible performance.

> >

> > That should tell you something about how likely it will be to sell the idea that we need a new engine on their dime now doesn't it ... Honestly, if you don't think this is an indication of how relevant this engine upgrade is to their business model, then there is no case you can make to justify the upgrade at Anet's cost to begin with. Absolutely NONE.

> >

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > I do have an idea and you do as well. I posted some of that idea in my post above.

> >

> > No, that's not an idea, it's an assumption and it's a poor one. You and I have NO idea who they have working on what things and assume that these things are not as important as the thing you want Anet to do. Like ZERO idea. There is no reason to make an assumption like you have; it doesn't make the case for a new engine ANY more compelling.

> >

>

> That isn't true at all. They have a comprehensive list on their official wiki that lists most of their employees and most of their functions. They have at least 22 people are their programming team alone.

 

Well it is true because nothing you have said tells us what those people are working on except for the vague notion they 'program' ... something.

[videoboy.4162]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"videoboy.4162" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > Right I already mentioned that ... so the actions that Anet take to correct that need to be considered very carefully. Rushing into demanding upgrade to a new engine at their own cost is absurd and contrived, especially when not everyone is affected in the same manner by the deterioration of performance and there are other solutions to consider.

> > > >

> > > > Yet they consider launching the game to a brand new audience, with this type of horrible performance.

> > >

> > > That should tell you something about how likely it will be to sell the idea that we need a new engine on their dime now doesn't it ... Honestly, if you don't think this is an indication of how relevant this engine upgrade is to their business model, then there is no case you can make to justify the upgrade at Anet's cost to begin with. Absolutely NONE.

> > >

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > I do have an idea and you do as well. I posted some of that idea in my post above.

> > >

> > > No, that's not an idea, it's an assumption and it's a poor one. You and I have NO idea who they have working on what things and assume that these things are not as important as the thing you want Anet to do. Like ZERO idea. There is no reason to make an assumption like you have; it doesn't make the case for a new engine ANY more compelling.

> > >

> >

> > That isn't true at all. They have a comprehensive list on their official wiki that lists most of their employees and most of their functions. They have at least 22 people are their programming team alone.

>

> Well it is true because nothing you have said tells us what those people are working on except for the vague notion they 'program' ... something.

 

No, it's absolutely not true, because their list of employees (that you clearly have no desire to look into) is very clearly divided into what sections they work on. At least one of those people is very clearly labeled "Engine Programmer." We don't need something super specific like "John is drawing a new Raptor skin" to have an idea about what the team members are working on, as you claim. You making all these false claims that other people are just making assumptions is nothing more than trolling.

 

The simple fact is that this Engine was created by Arenanet and it is absolutely their responsibility to maintain and enhance the engine as needed. It's not like other games that pay to use something like Unreal and therefore have another group of people to handle the engine for them. You can't claim that they should leave it as it was originally, because that's worked for 8 years, because Anet themselves have already mentioned several things they've done over the years to improve its functionality.

 

My personal opinion is that they should bring in at least one of the original people to help their new people correct the spaghetti code and try to future proof the game. Whether they need to rehire them or possibly enforce something in their original contract to force them to correct their work, means little to me.

 

If we keep having all these issues, the new Steam players will rip the game apart with reviews and those will reach a far larger audience than what we have when we complain here.