Should dps meters get banned?

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > You can make your own group and ask for experienced people only. So, it works both ways. I mean, it works in every other game I played and from my experience toxicity in those games were non existent in comparison to "casual" gw2. The only time I'd see toxic people is if I went to pvp.

>

> And yet you get players in your group that aren't experienced at all, even though you asked for experience. This is the problem. And when the group fails you start pointing fingers at whose fault it was, and the usual suspects ("bad" builds) are kicked first. A DPS meter allows groups to find who was the actual problem in the failed run. Very experienced players can indeed figure out who is the problem without checking logs, but having a log for verification isn't bad. I'm confused as to which are those other mmorpgs you played where you never saw toxic entitled players joining groups asking for experience. Is the casual community of instanced content so good in those games you tried compared to the toxicity they present in this one?

 

You think I don't get assholes who want to speedrun, exploit, expect certain dps in my all welcome, no rushing lfgs? I get a lot of them. Or I join such lfgs and see the same thing. Just this week I had plenty of ridiculous cases and I didn't really play much this week. I did a boneskinner all welcome strike. Bunch of newcomers joined and said it's their first time. We start, 3 people die about 20 seconds in, one or two more died later in fight and we finished the fight with 5 or 6 remaining in fairly decent time, especially for casual group with first timers. One guy, immediately after we finished, decided to insult people who died with "kitten noobs wiped and got carried". Then after a short conversation, we realized he was mad because he lost about 3 minutes of his life and probably more than that by arguing with us.

I had soooo many bad experiences in dungeons with people refusing to read or ignoring lfgs. Trying to show guildies how to properly do dungeon, so their first experience is not running straight to the final chest. We put lfg on with "all welcome, casual run, no rushing". People come in and start rushing immediately. Then you ask then if they read lfg and their responses are "wtf, why kill all? just skip" or "rly you gonna kill all of them?" or "well, that's stupid, gl guys *leaves party* and plenty more.

These are things that average player won't notice because they are in this mindset, so they don't see any problems. If you actually tried to play like I often do for a while, you would lose hope in humanity.

 

I also got insulted many times for playing scrapper by dragon hunters, eles, reapers etc. (I assume they didn't have arcdps on, because I literally outdps-ed all of them in majority of cases). This is where it shows how brainwashed people are. They think if they have meta build and class, that automatically they know how to play the game. It's quite hilarious at times, but also sad. So yeah, as any other argument, it works on both sides.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

>

> > The central issue is that a subset of players feels that they are entitled to be in groups with others without their consent and become instantly toxic wherever that is not the case. If it's important to you that players in your group do not use a dps meter, then simply form your own group with that requirement. If someone then joins your group just to troll you with their dps meter, then I'd say you'd be well within your rights to kick them out!

> They feel entitled because they don't want to be told exactly how to play, what build to have, where to stack, which mobs to skip, what limit of dps they need to reach and so on? Really? I got better idea. Maybe some people feel so entitled, that everyone else has to run meta builds and dps meters in order to not waste entitled elititsts's time in a video kitten game. Imagine that.

> > Why is the opposite not true? When a player joins a group that expects a minimum standard for contribution from each member and you fall short of that, why is the answer to call them toxic rather than simply seeing your way out of the group? Why are you (general you, not you personally!) entitled to be in that group if other players don't want you there?

> You can make your own group and ask for experienced people only. So, it works both ways. I mean, it works in every other game I played and from my experience toxicity in those games were non existent in comparison to "casual" gw2. The only time I'd see toxic people is if I went to pvp.

> If this was in game implemented (by developers) dps meter that only worked in raids for example, I wouldn't have an issue. Unfortunately though, many people, once they fall into this mindset, they continue with their idea how game needs to be played into other group content. Take a look at strikes. People requesting 200 and more LI and then they sit in lfg for so long, they could finish three different strikes by the time group fills, if it fills. I was in groups that had bunch of requirements (not LI, but certain classes and roles - which is fine), we took quite some time to "prepare" and then we wiped in Cold war, not by last boss, but by an ice giant or in other instances - by fraenir, even kodans multiple times and such. I even have few "friends" or ex guildies that I met in game who are trying so hard to impress someone with big numbers, they are literally staring into skill bar and arcdps and they forget to dodge most basic aoes and get wrecked. Their dps is good, but they go down and then what's the point of your dps meter if you aren't even there?

> I'm pretty sure that a good amount of people who think they are good players are actually not. A lot of people learn to play the game in very specific way, with specific tactics and exploits in every encounter. If you'd watch them play outside of that, you'd see them embarrass themselves very quickly. Your dps, which someone else calculated, tested, wrote rotation and told you exactly how to play and what gear to equip, doesn't make you a good player. Some people act as if equipping certain gear and pushing buttons in a defined pattern is making them a good player and therefore they can police others on their way of playing. Again, only seen this in gw2, which at the same time happens to be the most casual online game I have ever played.

>

 

I agree. So let me ask you. Do you ever see one of these threads started by people who get kicked from a group for being a toxic elitist?

 

I never have, yet threads like this one are a dime a dozen. Why is that do you suppose? Is it not likely true what I'm telling you, that a subset of players feel entitled to group with others while "playing how they want to play" as opposed to forming their own group and specifying which type of players they are looking for?

 

Why is it incumbent upon other players to conform to your needs but not the other way around?

 

To be clear, I am not an elitist. I have never and will never single another player out for build or performance issues. How could I? I'm the sort of player that will run t4 fractals with my open world build!

 

I just think a lot of this is on us. I avoid groups that ask for experience and I assume for raids/strikes I need to meet a minimum standard or risk holding the group back. None of this justifies toxicity, but I really think it's mostly on me not to cause that conflict in the first place.

 

My plan is working. Nobody ever gives me any problems. Why do you suppose it's so different for some of the others in this thread?

[lare.5129]

sometimes idea to kill arcdps is looks good. Ofc it will giant decrease any pug cms/raid lf. Make friendlist and const party more valuable.

Yes, requirement will be increases but some oldschool fun exist in this, and some new more stronger elitism will come.

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

Because we are talking about third party tool that is quite obviously not needed and only provides opportunity for people to abuse it. This tool is not part of the game and you are being monitored by other players without your knowledge or consent. Imagine you try to play casual football with your friends and one of your friends insist on having all the best players in their team everytime, otherwise they won't play, because it's waste of time. Or imagine playing fps shooter like Call of duty or Battlefield or whatever people play these days. Imagine one person demanding to have only people who have 5:1 kill ratio in their team, otherwise he won't play, because there is a change he might lose a match. That is ridiculous.

We started with arcdps, we got Taco and other nonsense, what's next? Now, you might ask "well, what problem could you have with taco now?". Well, let's see. We do guild race and few people who can't bother to actually play the game, they pop up taco and steamroll through race. Other people get discouraged, because they feel no point in doing this if some people basically cheat and second, they feel like they are being a burden, because people are waiting for them to finish. And people as they are, even casuals, are often saying "bruh, just install taco, makes it easy". Well no fucking shit it makes easy. What's the point in playing the game if you are going to have it on outopilot?

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> Because we are talking about third party tool that is quite obviously not needed and only provides opportunity for people to abuse it. This tool is not part of the game and you are being monitored by other players without your knowledge or consent. Imagine you try to play casual football with your friends and one of your friends insist on having all the best players in their team everytime, otherwise they won't play, because it's waste of time. Or imagine playing fps shooter like Call of duty or Battlefield or whatever people play these days. Imagine one person demanding to have only people who have 5:1 kill ratio in their team, otherwise he won't play, because there is a change he might lose a match. That is ridiculous.

> We started with arcdps, we got Taco and other nonsense, what's next? Now, you might ask "well, what problem could you have with taco now?". Well, let's see. We do guild race and few people who can't bother to actually play the game, they pop up taco and steamroll through race. Other people get discouraged, because they feel no point in doing this if some people basically cheat and second, they feel like they are being a burden, because people are waiting for them to finish. And people as they are, even casuals, are often saying "bruh, just install taco, makes it easy". Well no kitten kitten it makes easy. What's the point in playing the game if you are going to have it on outopilot?

>

 

All I hear is that others should have to accommodate you and not the other way around. Clearly, you believe that your way is the correct way to play a game. I disagree. I think it's inconsiderate and toxic to put that on others. Make the effort to make your own group if you only want to play with people who agree with you. Otherwise accept the fact that you're causing your own problem. That you believe you are right and they are wrong for playing the way they want to play is why this is toxic.

[Sinful Mustache.3589]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> Because we are talking about third party tool that is quite obviously not needed and only provides opportunity for people to abuse it

 

It quite obviously provides not only opportunity to abuse it, but also a ton of profit. Just like **any other tool** in this very universe.

I know, total vanity. You, offended casuals, dont care about reading and thinking about what veterans are trying to teach you on 7 pages already.

 

Also knifes, scissors, wrenches, hammers, cars and bottles provide opportunity for people to abuse them and eventually kill other people.

Lets ban all these tools, yes? Your pure logic

[Linken.6345]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

>

> > The central issue is that a subset of players feels that they are entitled to be in groups with others without their consent and become instantly toxic wherever that is not the case. If it's important to you that players in your group do not use a dps meter, then simply form your own group with that requirement. If someone then joins your group just to troll you with their dps meter, then I'd say you'd be well within your rights to kick them out!

> They feel entitled because they don't want to be told exactly how to play, what build to have, where to stack, which mobs to skip, what limit of dps they need to reach and so on? Really? I got better idea. Maybe some people feel so entitled, that everyone else has to run meta builds and dps meters in order to not waste entitled elititsts's time in a video kitten game. Imagine that.

> > Why is the opposite not true? When a player joins a group that expects a minimum standard for contribution from each member and you fall short of that, why is the answer to call them toxic rather than simply seeing your way out of the group? Why are you (general you, not you personally!) entitled to be in that group if other players don't want you there?

> You can make your own group and ask for experienced people only. So, it works both ways. I mean, it works in every other game I played and from my experience toxicity in those games were non existent in comparison to "casual" gw2. The only time I'd see toxic people is if I went to pvp.

> If this was in game implemented (by developers) dps meter that only worked in raids for example, I wouldn't have an issue. Unfortunately though, many people, once they fall into this mindset, they continue with their idea how game needs to be played into other group content. Take a look at strikes. People requesting 200 and more LI and then they sit in lfg for so long, they could finish three different strikes by the time group fills, if it fills. I was in groups that had bunch of requirements (not LI, but certain classes and roles - which is fine), we took quite some time to "prepare" and then we wiped in Cold war, not by last boss, but by an ice giant or in other instances - by fraenir, even kodans multiple times and such. I even have few "friends" or ex guildies that I met in game who are trying so hard to impress someone with big numbers, they are literally staring into skill bar and arcdps and they forget to dodge most basic aoes and get wrecked. Their dps is good, but they go down and then what's the point of your dps meter if you aren't even there?

> I'm pretty sure that a good amount of people who think they are good players are actually not. A lot of people learn to play the game in very specific way, with specific tactics and exploits in every encounter. If you'd watch them play outside of that, you'd see them embarrass themselves very quickly. Your dps, which someone else calculated, tested, wrote rotation and told you exactly how to play and what gear to equip, doesn't make you a good player. Some people act as if equipping certain gear and pushing buttons in a defined pattern is making them a good player and therefore they can police others on their way of playing. Again, only seen this in gw2, which at the same time happens to be the most casual online game I have ever played.

>

 

That's exactly what people do they make experienced people only groups and people with little to no experience try to sneak in to get carried. ( they might have a bad day as well I dont know)

 

Your literally raging at people who are doing just as you say they should do for doing.

Just because you automatically belive the people complaining of getting kicked on the forums

 

> @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said:

> Can anyone explain me how actually those arcdps qqers get offended by "toxic elitists"?

> Do they join 200+ LI squads and get kicked for poor dps reason?

> (Because noone kicks ppl from "low LI" or training squads for that reason afaik. Only if your dps is lower than healers have)

> If so, do they actually have 200 LI to join skilled squads?

> If so, how did they manage to farm 200 LI and still remain poor dps casuals?

>

> I really dont understand how lazy casuals can even get in touch with skilled squads to get kicked.

> What a paradox

 

Fake Li linking is a thing mate

 

[Linken.6345]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > @"Raizel Silverius.6430" said:

> > > I mean seriously? What do the people that says YES want as the next measurement for pug runs? Achievement Points? Titles? Trust?

> > Aren't you reading?

> > The people who are saying yes firmly beleive that there should be no measurement.

> > Full stop.

> > A quick scan of this thread shows that many of people voting "no" represent a very ugly side of this community.

> > From fear-mongering likening arc to fly hacks, to the public proclamations that EVERYONE who uses it only does so for toxic reasons we see a pattern of lies, prejudice and toxicity. We have a group of this community on display who counter fact with anecdote hyperbole and false rhetoric, who believe that the gathering and use of data is somehow less valid than their personal arbitrary judgement of what is "the right way to play".

> >

> > They don't want any measurement and they are spreading false information, pretending to speak for the developers, and acting as if they are the arbiters of right and wrong in this game to achieve this end.

>

> There are two types of toxic players around the instanced-content DPS issue in the game. The second is not likely to admit their approach in this thread.

>

> + Players who don't want to play meta builds or even play an off-meta build well-enough to not test a given group's tolerance _and_ who want to complete instanced content without having to take the (perhaps to them, scary) step-up to forming their own group. After all, if they form an all-welcome group, it's likely to hard fail and then they might have to face recriminations. Also, they might be expected to know mechanics and explain them, and that's (for some) a bridge too far.

> + Players who are slavish in their commitment to meta play. Some of them join groups with "all welcome" posted and then kitten about performance to the people who are doing what meta players want them to do, which is to avoid groups wanting meta players only.

>

> Both groups are motivated by the same things. First is impatience. They want to get into a group right kitten now, and don't care what the other players want. Second is entitlement. They believe that the game (and by extension the other players) owe them a group that passes the content. While meters can identify the first group, they don't identify the second with any regularity. Thankfully, the second self-identify by their behavior.

 

Yes and both should be kicked from their respective groups yet we 99% only hear complaints from the nr1 group on the forums.

[Sinful Mustache.3589]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> Fake Li linking is a thing mate

 

That is why we always ask to spam links. Though as a programmer i for sure know how to fake spamming links.

But we never actually saw anyone trying to fool us. Usually spamming LI to chat is enough to verify :)

If those arcdps haters are really faking spammed links and sneak into skilled squads just to get kicked.... That would be a hardcore rofl

[Cuks.8241]

A bit offtopic but this kitten comes up here a lot. "Anet needs to teach players how to play".

 

No, they don't! They really really don't.

And this applies to all games, computer or any kind. Games have game rules and this is what Anet sets up. How you will play within those rules is totally up to you. Discovering new tactics, strategies within games, that's is what games are all about.

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > Because we are talking about third party tool that is quite obviously not needed and only provides opportunity for people to abuse it

>

> It quite obviously provides not only opportunity to abuse it, but also a ton of profit. Just like **any other tool** in this very universe.

> I know, total vanity. You, offended casuals, dont care about reading and thinking about what veterans are trying to teach you on 7 pages already.

>

> Also knifes, scissors, wrenches, hammers, cars and bottles provide opportunity for people to abuse them and eventually kill other people.

> Lets ban all these tools, yes? Your pure logic

 

That's hilarious. We are going into extremes then, huh? Cheats and bots are also utility. I guess we shouldn't ban them, with your logic.

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

 

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

 

> All I hear is that others should have to accommodate you and not the other way around. I think it's inconsiderate and toxic to put that on others. Make the effort to make your own group if you only want to play with people who agree with you.

 

Then you aren't hearing well enough, because I literally gave you plenty of examples and you just ignored them.

 

>Clearly, you believe that your way is the correct way to play a game.

And clearly, they believe their way of playing is correct one. Funny, isn't it?

>Otherwise accept the fact that you're causing your own problem.

Putting an lfg with clear description and people ignoring it is now my problem? Interesting.

 

>That you believe you are right and they are wrong for playing the way they want to play is why this is toxic.

This is pure comedy. Do you even know what elitist means? They are definition of "thinking of being the right one and everyone should follow their lead".

 

Sad thing is that you think relying on non official software to govern people's gameplay is the way to go. You could do absolutely everything in game without dps meter. Having it just makes people into jerks and gives them illusion of being good players. Striking buttons in a pattern that someone prescribed it for you, doesn't make you a good player and doesn't mean that should be a requirement for being a contribution to the team.

Arguing that you could possibly avoid this if you made enough groups and hope people don't ignore your lfg description is akin to excusing cheaters - just find another match bro, they aren't everyhwere.

[Linken.6345]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

Snip

> >Clearly, you believe that your way is the correct way to play a game.

> And clearly, they believe their way of playing is correct one. Funny, isn't it?

Snip

 

No they are not they just want the tool to regulate their playstyle you can still have yours with arcdps around, they can not if you get your way and it gets removed.

 

[Cuks.8241]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> Sad thing is that you think relying on non official software to govern people's gameplay is the way to go. You could do absolutely everything in game without dps meter. Having it just makes people into jerks and gives them illusion of being good players. Striking buttons in a pattern that someone prescribed it for you, doesn't make you a good player and doesn't mean that should be a requirement for being a contribution to the team.

 

What does dps meter have with rotations? You are writing like a dps meter is making you do rotations.

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said:

> > > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > Because we are talking about third party tool that is quite obviously not needed and only provides opportunity for people to abuse it

> >

> > It quite obviously provides not only opportunity to abuse it, but also a ton of profit. Just like **any other tool** in this very universe.

> > I know, total vanity. You, offended casuals, dont care about reading and thinking about what veterans are trying to teach you on 7 pages already.

> >

> > Also knifes, scissors, wrenches, hammers, cars and bottles provide opportunity for people to abuse them and eventually kill other people.

> > Lets ban all these tools, yes? Your pure logic

>

> That's hilarious. We are going into extremes then, huh? Cheats and bots are also utility. I guess we shouldn't ban them, with your logic.

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

>

> > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

>

> > All I hear is that others should have to accommodate you and not the other way around. I think it's inconsiderate and toxic to put that on others. Make the effort to make your own group if you only want to play with people who agree with you.

>

> Then you aren't hearing well enough, because I literally gave you plenty of examples and you just ignored them.

>

> >Clearly, you believe that your way is the correct way to play a game.

> And clearly, they believe their way of playing is correct one. Funny, isn't it?

> >Otherwise accept the fact that you're causing your own problem.

> Putting an lfg with clear description and people ignoring it is now my problem? Interesting.

>

> >That you believe you are right and they are wrong for playing the way they want to play is why this is toxic.

> This is pure comedy. Do you even know what elitist means? They are definition of "thinking of being the right one and everyone should follow their lead".

>

> Sad thing is that you think relying on non official software to govern people's gameplay is the way to go. You could do absolutely everything in game without dps meter. Having it just makes people into jerks and gives them illusion of being good players. Striking buttons in a pattern that someone prescribed it for you, doesn't make you a good player and doesn't mean that should be a requirement for being a contribution to the team.

> Arguing that you could possibly avoid this if you made enough groups and hope people don't ignore your lfg description is akin to excusing cheaters - just find another match bro, they aren't everyhwere.

 

Arcdps is not cheating no matter how triggered you feel. If the wrong people join your group and you have to deal with toxicity? Welcome to what everyone else has to deal with when people like you bring their self-righteous ideas on how everyone else should play into the group.

 

I'm not telling anyone else how to play. I just deal with it and move on if a group fails or just drop group if people are toxic. But it's really never been an issue for me. I wonder what the difference is?

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> Snip

> > >Clearly, you believe that your way is the correct way to play a game.

> > And clearly, they believe their way of playing is correct one. Funny, isn't it?

> Snip

>

> No they are not they just want the tool to regulate their playstyle you can still have yours with arcdps around, they can not if you get your way and it gets removed.

>

 

Everyone can have their playstyle, no need for dps meter. What are you even arguing?

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

 

> Arcdps is not cheating no matter how triggered you feel. If the wrong people join your group and you have to deal with toxicity?

Making things up now, huh? Who said arcdps is cheating? Triggered? I'm having a conversation. I'm not allowed to response to your nonsense, or I'm being triggered? And that comment wasn't even headed to you. Come back when you have actual argument, instead of making shit up to make a point, assuming things and insulting.

>Welcome to what everyone else has to deal with when people like you bring their self-righteous ideas on how everyone else should play into the group.

Oh, do tell me how game was meant to be played by exploiting, rushing and regulating dps of other people. If that was the case, dps meter would be implemented by Arenanet.

> I'm not telling anyone else how to play. I just deal with it and move on if a group fails or just drop group if people are toxic. But it's really never been an issue for me. I wonder what the difference is?

Good for you. Doesn't mean everyone else is lying.

 

 

[Krzysztof.5973]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

>Everyone can have their playstyle, no need for dps meter. What are you even arguing?

DPS meter falls into the category of "everyone".

>Oh, do tell me how game was meant to be played by exploiting, rushing and regulating dps of other people. If that was the case, dps meter would be implemented by Arenanet.

Dungeon meta is self-explanatory. Berserker statset is still "meta" in most cases whether it fits your playstyle or not. Not because people are slaves to DPS meter or "elitists" but because it's most efficient which was the case even before DPS meters were here. With creation of them we only received a confirmation that it was the case, which proved certain people wrong.

Class balance and dungeon design however are a vastly different stories. If by their design we as players were not meant to rush it or rather get to the point where playerbase is capable of efficiently clearing dungeons - the devs would not let us. They also wouldn't give us so many stat options if their choice would not allow players to approach this type of content in more relaxed manner.

 

They don't design it to play it a singular way. We decide it. If you can speedrun every single path with your friends in glass cannon build GO FOR IT. I don't see how can you be so fixated on only one side of the coin. There is a group of people who prefer to have DPS meters and pull the biggest numbers they can. They have right to have this choice.

[Ray Koopa.2354]

This question is silly. Even if it is getting "banned", some people will still use it and just kick without saying, and hey they may have a reason.

Banning automatedly depending on which processes run on your PC? Yeah, because that worked so "eagerly" last time. And because people daring to use it won't know their way around it.

[Dante.1508]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > > Yes There should be no mods in an mmorpg.. its opens far to many cans of worms and very few mmo's even allow these things without being banned.. Very poor on Anets behalf to allow these hacks.

> > >

> > > But they are not hacks, they don't change the code whatsoever

> > >

> > > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > > > > No mods should exist, close the back door and removing the hackers from the game and show you care about the game in general.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If it were meant to be here, they'd of implemented it. If its not in the game as it is then it doesn't need to exist; This is becoming a "nerf buttons" fiasco like in Warhammer online where you could bypass the GCD and fire multiple of the same skill regardless of cooldown. Thats not here "yet" but hackers are running rampant in all game-modes, the toxicity due to meters existing is at an all time high. Either implement these abundantly used mods into the game as core features and QOL or come out, and say you dont support it and are closing the back door to prevent people from messing with the code and to do so is an instant ban REGARDLESS of who you are.

> > > > >

> > > > > What about mods who don't mess with the code, just screencap for example?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > None at all, you allow one you need to allow all... So no nothing, nada, zilch.

> > >

> > > Thats not how rules work though, thats like saying well if we allow people to drive 30 km/h you allow them to ride 500km/h. So we should not allow cars.

> >

> > See you are ok with arcdps but you are not ok with people never dying and flying around in WvW which is also a script mod.. just not a friendly one.. But they still use them to screw others over just like arcdps.

>

> But it's not an hack per definition. It doesn't change the game code/information that gets send to the server.

>

> And let's be clear here, toxicity decreased from my experience after the introduction of dps meters not increased.

>

> And will you address the point I made about rules not applying to all cases. Why should add-ons be the one exception to this and be all or nothing?

>

>

 

Its got to inject some to see what other customers are doing.. obviously is checking the code to see what the raid group is doing.. Because if you allow one you have to allow them all.

> @"TwoGhosts.6790" said:

> > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > See you are ok with arcdps but you are not ok with people never dying and flying around in WvW which is also a script mod.. just not a friendly one.. But they still use them to screw others over just like arcdps.

>

> It's impossible for me to take that comparison seriously. You're really stretching.

>

> > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said:

> > > The results are in...

> > > Seems pretty conclusive.

> >

> > If thats the case why are raids considered niche and the population doing them so small.. I think a forum poll does not show the full picture of customers.

>

> I don't do raids, and I use arcdps all the time.

>

> Ofc a forum poll does not show the full picture of all customers. For that you would have to poll them all.

>

> But the results of this poll are clear, and one might assume that it represents the views of that proportion of the playerbase which both frequents the forums and which cares enough about the issue to vote.

>

> It's not dismissable.

 

No it represents the views of the raiding portion of the Forum community.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> >

> > There are two types of toxic players around the instanced-content DPS issue in the game. The second is not likely to admit their approach in this thread.

> >

> > + Players who don't want to play meta builds or even play an off-meta build well-enough to not test a given group's tolerance _and_ who want to complete instanced content without having to take the (perhaps to them, scary) step-up to forming their own group. After all, if they form an all-welcome group, it's likely to hard fail and then they might have to face recriminations. Also, they might be expected to know mechanics and explain them, and that's (for some) a bridge too far.

> > + Players who are slavish in their commitment to meta play. Some of them join groups with "all welcome" posted and then kitten about performance to the people who are doing what meta players want them to do, which is to avoid groups wanting meta players only.

> >

> > Both groups are motivated by the same things. First is impatience. They want to get into a group right kitten now, and don't care what the other players want. Second is entitlement. They believe that the game (and by extension the other players) owe them a group that passes the content. While meters can identify the first group, they don't identify the second with any regularity. Thankfully, the second self-identify by their behavior.

>

> Yes and both should be kicked from their respective groups yet we 99% only hear complaints from the nr1 group on the forums.

 

All too true, and I know why. First, the numbers in the first group are very probably larger. Second, what player who prides himself as a good instanced content player (rightly or wrongly) is going to come to the forums and admit that he got kicked by a bunch of "filthy casuals?"

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Krzysztof.5973" said:

 

> DPS meter falls into the category of "everyone".

Cheats also fall into "everyone" category.

 

> Dungeon meta is self-explanatory. Berserker statset is still "meta" in most cases whether it fits your playstyle or not. Not because people are slaves to DPS meter or "elitists" but because it's most efficient which was the case even before DPS meters were here. With creation of them we only received a confirmation that it was the case, which proved certain people wrong.

What does stats have to do with this topic? Let me tell you a secret. You can be berserker and not exploit content or have dps meter. Yeah, shocking.

> Class balance and dungeon design however are a vastly different stories. If by their design we as players were not meant to rush it or rather get to the point where playerbase is capable of efficiently clearing dungeons - the devs would not let us. They also wouldn't give us so many stat options if their choice would not allow players to approach this type of content in more relaxed manner.

That's like saying bugged content are how game was meant to be played, since there are bunch of bugs that persist through years or even never get fixed. Or exploits. People were permanently banned for certain exploits in games in general. I don't remember a case in gw2, if there were any, but afk-farming was also kinda grey area and was discussed quite a bit.

> They don't design it to play it a singular way. We decide it. If you can speedrun every single path with your friends in glass cannon build GO FOR IT. I don't see how can you be so fixated on only one side of the coin. There is a group of people who prefer to have DPS meters and pull the biggest numbers they can. They have right to have this choice.

Yes, community is who decides to be jerks. Cheater is also a part of community that decides to use cheats. Does that mean we shouldn't prohibit cheats, because it's actually up to a player if they will use them and in what manner?

I have no problem with people speedrunning (if they can properly read descriptions). I did it myself for a long time. Problem is with the attitude of people and how this meta obsession and dps meters puts them into mindset that failure is not an option or completing content in 2 minutes more than expected is considered the end of the world.

I even had cases where I did multiple dungeons or strikes with same people, all went smooth and then first time we failed and few people died in like 6th strike or dungeon, that triggers one or two and they start insulting others. I never flip up, especially not at first failure and especially not after 6 smooth runs I did with the said group. So I try to prevent drama and just say something like "no worries guys, let's do it this time". And then someone turns to me with "shut up, you're not even good dps". While I was in top 3 at the time (beaten by dragonhunters, while I was on my scrapper - and no I wasn't behind by miles, it was like 2k dps difference). Sometimes I truly wish I'd have videos and screen to paste in these topics, but it's not like it would make a difference really, because people always make up excuses regardless. I just block and go on.

 

[yann.1946]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > > > Yes There should be no mods in an mmorpg.. its opens far to many cans of worms and very few mmo's even allow these things without being banned.. Very poor on Anets behalf to allow these hacks.

> > > >

> > > > But they are not hacks, they don't change the code whatsoever

> > > >

> > > > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > > > > > No mods should exist, close the back door and removing the hackers from the game and show you care about the game in general.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If it were meant to be here, they'd of implemented it. If its not in the game as it is then it doesn't need to exist; This is becoming a "nerf buttons" fiasco like in Warhammer online where you could bypass the GCD and fire multiple of the same skill regardless of cooldown. Thats not here "yet" but hackers are running rampant in all game-modes, the toxicity due to meters existing is at an all time high. Either implement these abundantly used mods into the game as core features and QOL or come out, and say you dont support it and are closing the back door to prevent people from messing with the code and to do so is an instant ban REGARDLESS of who you are.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What about mods who don't mess with the code, just screencap for example?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > None at all, you allow one you need to allow all... So no nothing, nada, zilch.

> > > >

> > > > Thats not how rules work though, thats like saying well if we allow people to drive 30 km/h you allow them to ride 500km/h. So we should not allow cars.

> > >

> > > See you are ok with arcdps but you are not ok with people never dying and flying around in WvW which is also a script mod.. just not a friendly one.. But they still use them to screw others over just like arcdps.

> >

> > But it's not an hack per definition. It doesn't change the game code/information that gets send to the server.

> >

> > And let's be clear here, toxicity decreased from my experience after the introduction of dps meters not increased.

> >

> > And will you address the point I made about rules not applying to all cases. Why should add-ons be the one exception to this and be all or nothing?

> >

> >

>

> Its got to inject some to see what other customers are doing.. obviously is checking the code to see what the raid group is doing.. Because if you allow one you have to allow them all.

 

Why are you so adament on having no nuance? As a company it's perfectly possible to allow some and disallow others.

 

Explain to me please why you can't have nuanced rules.

 

> > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said:

> > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > See you are ok with arcdps but you are not ok with people never dying and flying around in WvW which is also a script mod.. just not a friendly one.. But they still use them to screw others over just like arcdps.

> >

> > It's impossible for me to take that comparison seriously. You're really stretching.

> >

> > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said:

> > > > The results are in...

> > > > Seems pretty conclusive.

> > >

> > > If thats the case why are raids considered niche and the population doing them so small.. I think a forum poll does not show the full picture of customers.

> >

> > I don't do raids, and I use arcdps all the time.

> >

> > Ofc a forum poll does not show the full picture of all customers. For that you would have to poll them all.

> >

> > But the results of this poll are clear, and one might assume that it represents the views of that proportion of the playerbase which both frequents the forums and which cares enough about the issue to vote.

> >

> > It's not dismissable.

>

> No it represents the views of the raiding portion of the Forum community.

 

Possibly, but this is placed in general so its to be expected that it represents the general forum population.

[Shikaru.7618]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Krzysztof.5973" said:

>

> > DPS meter falls into the category of "everyone".

> Cheats also fall into "everyone" category.

>

> > Dungeon meta is self-explanatory. Berserker statset is still "meta" in most cases whether it fits your playstyle or not. Not because people are slaves to DPS meter or "elitists" but because it's most efficient which was the case even before DPS meters were here. With creation of them we only received a confirmation that it was the case, which proved certain people wrong.

> What does stats have to do with this topic? Let me tell you a secret. You can be berserker and not exploit content or have dps meter. Yeah, shocking.

> > Class balance and dungeon design however are a vastly different stories. If by their design we as players were not meant to rush it or rather get to the point where playerbase is capable of efficiently clearing dungeons - the devs would not let us. They also wouldn't give us so many stat options if their choice would not allow players to approach this type of content in more relaxed manner.

> That's like saying bugged content are how game was meant to be played, since there are bunch of bugs that persist through years or even never get fixed. Or exploits. People were permanently banned for certain exploits in games in general. I don't remember a case in gw2, if there were any, but afk-farming was also kinda grey area and was discussed quite a bit.

> > They don't design it to play it a singular way. We decide it. If you can speedrun every single path with your friends in glass cannon build GO FOR IT. I don't see how can you be so fixated on only one side of the coin. There is a group of people who prefer to have DPS meters and pull the biggest numbers they can. They have right to have this choice.

> Yes, community is who decides to be jerks. Cheater is also a part of community that decides to use cheats. Does that mean we shouldn't prohibit cheats, because it's actually up to a player if they will use them and in what manner?

> I have no problem with people speedrunning (if they can properly read descriptions). I did it myself for a long time. Problem is with the attitude of people and how this meta obsession and dps meters puts them into mindset that failure is not an option or completing content in 2 minutes more than expected is considered the end of the world.

> I even had cases where I did multiple dungeons or strikes with same people, all went smooth and then first time we failed and few people died in like 6th strike or dungeon, that triggers one or two and they start insulting others. I never flip up, especially not at first failure and especially not after 6 smooth runs I did with the said group. So I try to prevent drama and just say something like "no worries guys, let's do it this time". And then someone turns to me with "shut up, you're not even good dps". While I was in top 3 at the time (beaten by dragonhunters, while I was on my scrapper - and no I wasn't behind by miles, it was like 2k dps difference). Sometimes I truly wish I'd have videos and screen to paste in these topics, but it's not like it would make a difference really, because people always make up excuses regardless. I just block and go on.

>

 

Sounds like in your example a dpsmeter was helpful to prove you were pulling your weight and those making baseless claims without it should really get it. So why are we banning them again?

[Hesione.9412]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

[snip]

> We started with arcdps, we got Taco and other nonsense, what's next? Now, you might ask "well, what problem could you have with taco now?". Well, let's see. We do guild race and few people who can't bother to actually play the game, they pop up taco and steamroll through race. Other people get discouraged, because they feel no point in doing this if some people basically cheat and second, they feel like they are being a burden, because people are waiting for them to finish. And people as they are, even casuals, are often saying "bruh, just install taco, makes it easy". Well no kitten kitten it makes easy. What's the point in playing the game if you are going to have it on outopilot?

 

Good grief, running Taco is cheating, specifically in guild mission races?

 

I can follow the arguments for and against DPS meters - and both sides have valid points - but none of this is cheating.

 

DPS meters are the thin edge of the wedge that will cause most players to cheat?

 

I return you all now to your regularly scheduled vigorous debate about DPS meters.

[Astyrah.4015]

> @"Hesione.9412" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> [snip]

> > We started with arcdps, we got Taco and other nonsense, what's next? Now, you might ask "well, what problem could you have with taco now?". Well, let's see. We do guild race and few people who can't bother to actually play the game, they pop up taco and steamroll through race. Other people get discouraged, because they feel no point in doing this if some people basically cheat and second, they feel like they are being a burden, because people are waiting for them to finish. And people as they are, even casuals, are often saying "bruh, just install taco, makes it easy". Well no kitten kitten it makes easy. What's the point in playing the game if you are going to have it on outopilot?

>

> Good grief, running Taco is cheating, specifically in guild mission races?

>

> I can follow the arguments for and against DPS meters - and both sides have valid points - but none of this is cheating.

>

> DPS meters are the thin edge of the wedge that will cause most players to cheat?

>

> I return you all now to your regularly scheduled vigorous debate about DPS meters.

 

wow this topic and the debating has gone down so far even taco got involved now. people should just agree to disagree

[Shikaru.7618]

> @"Hesione.9412" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> [snip]

> > We started with arcdps, we got Taco and other nonsense, what's next? Now, you might ask "well, what problem could you have with taco now?". Well, let's see. We do guild race and few people who can't bother to actually play the game, they pop up taco and steamroll through race. Other people get discouraged, because they feel no point in doing this if some people basically cheat and second, they feel like they are being a burden, because people are waiting for them to finish. And people as they are, even casuals, are often saying "bruh, just install taco, makes it easy". Well no kitten kitten it makes easy. What's the point in playing the game if you are going to have it on outopilot?

>

> Good grief, running Taco is cheating, specifically in guild mission races?

>

> I can follow the arguments for and against DPS meters - and both sides have valid points - but none of this is cheating.

>

> DPS meters are the thin edge of the wedge that will cause most players to cheat?

>

> I return you all now to your regularly scheduled vigorous debate about DPS meters.

 

The skill ceiling for guild races isn't even that high. You can memorize the route without taco just from doing it twice. All of the "downsides" of taco would still happen because I'm finishing races 5x times before the newplayer finishes.