Should dps meters get banned?

[Dante.1508]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > > > > Yes There should be no mods in an mmorpg.. its opens far to many cans of worms and very few mmo's even allow these things without being banned.. Very poor on Anets behalf to allow these hacks.

> > > > >

> > > > > But they are not hacks, they don't change the code whatsoever

> > > > >

> > > > > > > @"yann.1946" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:

> > > > > > > > No mods should exist, close the back door and removing the hackers from the game and show you care about the game in general.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If it were meant to be here, they'd of implemented it. If its not in the game as it is then it doesn't need to exist; This is becoming a "nerf buttons" fiasco like in Warhammer online where you could bypass the GCD and fire multiple of the same skill regardless of cooldown. Thats not here "yet" but hackers are running rampant in all game-modes, the toxicity due to meters existing is at an all time high. Either implement these abundantly used mods into the game as core features and QOL or come out, and say you dont support it and are closing the back door to prevent people from messing with the code and to do so is an instant ban REGARDLESS of who you are.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What about mods who don't mess with the code, just screencap for example?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > None at all, you allow one you need to allow all... So no nothing, nada, zilch.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thats not how rules work though, thats like saying well if we allow people to drive 30 km/h you allow them to ride 500km/h. So we should not allow cars.

> > > >

> > > > See you are ok with arcdps but you are not ok with people never dying and flying around in WvW which is also a script mod.. just not a friendly one.. But they still use them to screw others over just like arcdps.

> > >

> > > But it's not an hack per definition. It doesn't change the game code/information that gets send to the server.

> > >

> > > And let's be clear here, toxicity decreased from my experience after the introduction of dps meters not increased.

> > >

> > > And will you address the point I made about rules not applying to all cases. Why should add-ons be the one exception to this and be all or nothing?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Its got to inject some to see what other customers are doing.. obviously is checking the code to see what the raid group is doing.. Because if you allow one you have to allow them all.

>

> Why are you so adament on having no nuance? As a company it's perfectly possible to allow some and disallow others.

>

> Explain to me please why you can't have nuanced rules.

>

> > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said:

> > > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > > See you are ok with arcdps but you are not ok with people never dying and flying around in WvW which is also a script mod.. just not a friendly one.. But they still use them to screw others over just like arcdps.

> > >

> > > It's impossible for me to take that comparison seriously. You're really stretching.

> > >

> > > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > > > @"TwoGhosts.6790" said:

> > > > > The results are in...

> > > > > Seems pretty conclusive.

> > > >

> > > > If thats the case why are raids considered niche and the population doing them so small.. I think a forum poll does not show the full picture of customers.

> > >

> > > I don't do raids, and I use arcdps all the time.

> > >

> > > Ofc a forum poll does not show the full picture of all customers. For that you would have to poll them all.

> > >

> > > But the results of this poll are clear, and one might assume that it represents the views of that proportion of the playerbase which both frequents the forums and which cares enough about the issue to vote.

> > >

> > > It's not dismissable.

> >

> > No it represents the views of the raiding portion of the Forum community.

>

> Possibly, but this is placed in general so its to be expected that it represents the general forum population.

 

Its been explained all through this thread why.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> Arcdps is not only a dps meter. It shows healing, boon duration, boons ripped/corrupted etc.

>

> This helps a lot to determine how good a theorycrafted build is.

>

> > @"Wrong Device.3014" said:

> > Is my DPS fine? I've read this thread and installed AcrDPS. Sometimes I see 1000/s, sometimes 3000/s. Max is 5000. I have no idea - is it normal?

>

> If you are some kind of dps build and if you are doing open world, yes. For fractals/raids, no.

>

> I think it's possible to do around 15k without buffs (might, fury, ranger spirits, warrior banners etc) if you go a meta raid dps builds. I also know full dire stats fire weaver does 15k without buffs in open world.

>

> If you want to increase your dps (why would you want to increase it, I don't know) try practicing/theorycrafting on the golem in lions arch aerodrome.

 

If I had to ballpark it, I would say 3-5k dps is probably not an unrealistic guess on what could be considered "average" dps in open world. However, it's true what you say that the right build can generate much higher numbers. To confirm the dire fire weaver estimate, here's a 7s burst demo on fire weaver using dire stats and achieving 16.2k dps, peaking at around the 5-6 second mark with 31 stacks and a max burn tick of 22.5k.

 

My build isn't a meta build and I'm not practicing a 76-step raid rotation because I'm not that sort of player. I'm a solo open world/story player primarily. Arcdps is a valuable tool for players like me. It gives me easy access to the information I need to improve my performance not only as a solo player, but also in group content when I choose to participate in it. It's important to me that I know I'm contributing sufficiently and not burdening the groups I join as I go about the business of playing the way I want to play rather than chasing the meta for content I don't really care much about.

 

 

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Shikaru.7618" said:

 

> I'm a solo open world/story player primarily. Arcdps is a valuable tool for players like me.

It is, but you don't need access to other players info to do that.

>It gives me easy access to the information I need to improve my performance not only as a solo player, but also in group content when I choose to participate in it. It's important to me that I know I'm contributing sufficiently and not burdening the groups I join as I go about the business of playing the way I want to play rather than chasing the meta for content I don't really care much about.

You don't need dps meter to know you are contributing. Level 80 people that are playing the game for at least two weeks, will rarely have dps so low, that it should be considered not contributing to the team. Where do you draw the line? Does a football player who doesn't score any goal not contribute? Does a football player who makes less perfect passes than someone else, not contribute to the team? Does a goalkeeper who makes less saves than other goalkeeper not contribute to the team?

The only content you could put a limit on and then argue that not reaching said limit, it is considered not contributing, could be stuff like raids or other content that has timer on it, because you can calculate average needed dps per player in order to beat the content. There you could say "look, you are doing less than average damage needed to complete this content, therefore you are putting a burden on others in the team to do more damage to even up odds."

That's why I said, I could only really see dps meter be ok in raids and in that case, it should be implemented by Arenanet, because raids are obviously different kind of content than the rest of the game that is suppose to be very casual.

 

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

 

 

 

> We cannot do the same with Arc, because Arc primary purpose is completely benign. Yes, it can _also_ be used by toxic people to "justify" toxic behaviour, in the same way a frying pan can be used to smash someone's head, but in said case it's the toxic behaviour that is a problem, not using Arc itself.

That's a fair point about cheats, I agree. It wasn't the best analogy from me, but argument would stay the same. If you say that only factor that contributes to the problem is people and tool has nothing to do with it, like some suggested, than we have a problem. Because with that logic, we could allow any kind of tool and if it's being misused, we could just point finger at people and say "well, talk to them".

 

There are games where developers and players are very much against certain things like dps meters, mods, overlays, even afk farming, while other companies allow them. Why? Well, I guess some of them concluded it potentially provides more harm than good. And it certainly isn't something that would be very much needed to complete anything in game, so why risk it.

 

And that's what my opinion is and why I'm against it. From my own experience, I see it doing more harm than good. I see people using it to insult others. I see people using it to kick other for not contributing enough, even though they are contributing enough to complete the instance. I see people trying to be cool boys and reach that sweet 40k, failing to realize they can't do it outside perfectly organized raid with certain party composition and builds - because it depends on the entire team. I see people caring for every single bit of dps so much, they die of basic aoes, because their eyes are glued on dps meter. I see people mistaking their high dps for being a skilled player, when they don't even understand certain mechanics/bosses, they just practiced their rotation and high dps is all that matters to them. And I could go on.

 

I've played many online games. Maybe I was lucky, but gw2 is the first and only one I saw using dps meters (and it's the most casual game off all I played). In no other game, we had problems completing any content and having fun. DPS role was any class that was meant to dps. You played the class you enjoyed. Here in gw2, people make all classes just to have them at ready. And then they play the one that is currently meta and does most damage. I haven't seen this trend anywhere else, in all honesty.

 

But, I digress - I just think dps meter is harmful for community. If it was self dps meter, sure, but as it is now, I don't see it being "helpful" enough to be worth it. But, hey, don't worry, looks like most people can't live without it, so I think you guys are safe.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

>

>

>

> > We cannot do the same with Arc, because Arc primary purpose is completely benign. Yes, it can _also_ be used by toxic people to "justify" toxic behaviour, in the same way a frying pan can be used to smash someone's head, but in said case it's the toxic behaviour that is a problem, not using Arc itself.

> That's a fair point about cheats, I agree. It wasn't the best analogy from me, but argument would stay the same. If you say that only factor that contributes to the problem is people and tool has nothing to do with it, like some suggested, than we have a problem. Because with that logic, we could allow any kind of tool and if it's being misused, we could just point finger at people and say "well, talk to them".

>

> There are games where developers and players are very much against certain things like dps meters, mods, overlays, even afk farming, while other companies allow them. Why? Well, I guess some of them concluded it potentially provides more harm than good. And it certainly isn't something that would be very much needed to complete anything in game, so why risk it.

>

> And that's what my opinion is and why I'm against it. From my own experience, I see it doing more harm than good. I see people using it to insult others. I see people using it to kick other for not contributing enough, even though they are contributing enough to complete the instance. I see people trying to be cool boys and reach that sweet 40k, failing to realize they can't do it outside perfectly organized raid with certain party composition and builds - because it depends on the entire team. I see people caring for every single bit of dps so much, they die of basic aoes, because their eyes are glued on dps meter. I see people mistaking their high dps for being a skilled player, when they don't even understand certain mechanics/bosses, they just practiced their rotation and high dps is all that matters to them. And I could go on.

>

> I've played many online games. Maybe I was lucky, but gw2 is the first and only one I saw using dps meters (and it's the most casual game off all I played). In no other game, we had problems completing any content and having fun. DPS role was any class that was meant to dps. You played the class you enjoyed. Here in gw2, people make all classes just to have them at ready. And then they play the one that is currently meta and does most damage. I haven't seen this trend anywhere else, in all honesty.

>

> But, I digress - I just think dps meter is harmful for community. If it was self dps meter, sure, but as it is now, I don't see it being "helpful" enough to be worth it. But, hey, don't worry, looks like most people can't live without it, so I think you guys are safe.

 

Before meter you got kicked for playing non meta classes or having to low ap. Or not using right weapon basicly you couldnt prove your off meta build did its job

[Hyrai.8720]

you also drink coffee and build paper planes all day at work and expect to get the same recognition as your hard working colleagues?

and when you get fired you start complaining that it's unjustified?

 

you wanna go back to the "good ol' times"?

fine, so you don't get fired because you're not performing, you get fired because you're a woman.

thats better, right?!

 

it's basically the same with dps meters.

players were getting kicked for playing the wrong class or not having enough AP, simply because the group didnt have anything else to base their decision on.

now that they have Arc they can allow off-meta players and see if theyre performing.

or to get back to my analogy: they have the data to prove that women are performing just as well as men. sometimes even better.

i dont see how that's a bad thing...

[Yggranya.5201]

> @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> you also drink coffee and build paper planes all day at work and expect to get the same recognition as your hard working colleagues?

> and when you get fired you start complaining that it's unjustified?

>

> you wanna go back to the "good ol' times"?

> fine, so you don't get fired because you're not performing, you get fired because you're a woman.

> thats better, right?!

>

> it's basically the same with dps meters.

> players were getting kicked for playing the wrong class or not having enough AP, simply because the group didnt have anything else to base their decision on.

> now that they have Arc they can allow off-meta players and see if theyre performing.

> or to get back to my analogy: they have the data to prove that women are performing just as well as men. sometimes even better.

> i dont see how that's a bad thing...

 

And when they aren't performing to your standards, they deserve to be ridiculed, right? It might be that they aren't even bad, just not "at your level" as it were. Can't skip all those mechanics if you don't do enough DPS, you know, to make the "difficulty" disappear.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > you also drink coffee and build paper planes all day at work and expect to get the same recognition as your hard working colleagues?

> > and when you get fired you start complaining that it's unjustified?

> >

> > you wanna go back to the "good ol' times"?

> > fine, so you don't get fired because you're not performing, you get fired because you're a woman.

> > thats better, right?!

> >

> > it's basically the same with dps meters.

> > players were getting kicked for playing the wrong class or not having enough AP, simply because the group didnt have anything else to base their decision on.

> > now that they have Arc they can allow off-meta players and see if theyre performing.

> > or to get back to my analogy: they have the data to prove that women are performing just as well as men. sometimes even better.

> > i dont see how that's a bad thing...

>

> And when they aren't performing to your standards, they deserve to be ridiculed, right? It might be that they aren't even bad, just not "at your level" as it were. Can't skip all those mechanics if you don't do enough DPS, you know, to make the "difficulty" disappear.

 

Solution make max 10k dmg on all classes by dropping crit dmg but thrn again enrage is a mechanic wich is meant to trigger (sarcasm)

[Hyrai.8720]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > you also drink coffee and build paper planes all day at work and expect to get the same recognition as your hard working colleagues?

> > and when you get fired you start complaining that it's unjustified?

> >

> > you wanna go back to the "good ol' times"?

> > fine, so you don't get fired because you're not performing, you get fired because you're a woman.

> > thats better, right?!

> >

> > it's basically the same with dps meters.

> > players were getting kicked for playing the wrong class or not having enough AP, simply because the group didnt have anything else to base their decision on.

> > now that they have Arc they can allow off-meta players and see if theyre performing.

> > or to get back to my analogy: they have the data to prove that women are performing just as well as men. sometimes even better.

> > i dont see how that's a bad thing...

>

> And when they aren't performing to your standards, they deserve to be ridiculed, right?

 

To stay with my analogy:

If your performance doesnt match your salary your boss has every right to ridicule you, doesnt he?

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> And when they aren't performing to your standards, they deserve to be ridiculed, right? It might be that they aren't even bad, just not "at your level" as it were. Can't skip all those mechanics if you don't do enough DPS, you know, to make the "difficulty" disappear.

 

Choose one:

1) Do you want to get kicked for low dps (build is irrelevant as long as you do enough dps)

2) Do you want to get kicked for playing unoptimal class or having low AP

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Shikaru.7618" said:

>

> > I'm a solo open world/story player primarily. Arcdps is a valuable tool for players like me.

> It is, but you don't need access to other players info to do that.

> >It gives me easy access to the information I need to improve my performance not only as a solo player, but also in group content when I choose to participate in it. It's important to me that I know I'm contributing sufficiently and not burdening the groups I join as I go about the business of playing the way I want to play rather than chasing the meta for content I don't really care much about.

> You don't need dps meter to know you are contributing. Level 80 people that are playing the game for at least two weeks, will rarely have dps so low, that it should be considered not contributing to the team. Where do you draw the line? Does a football player who doesn't score any goal not contribute? Does a football player who makes less perfect passes than someone else, not contribute to the team? Does a goalkeeper who makes less saves than other goalkeeper not contribute to the team?

> The only content you could put a limit on and then argue that not reaching said limit, it is considered not contributing, could be stuff like raids or other content that has timer on it, because you can calculate average needed dps per player in order to beat the content. There you could say "look, you are doing less than average damage needed to complete this content, therefore you are putting a burden on others in the team to do more damage to even up odds."

> That's why I said, I could only really see dps meter be ok in raids and in that case, it should be implemented by Arenanet, because raids are obviously different kind of content than the rest of the game that is suppose to be very casual.

>

 

Again, it is not up to you to decide how much damage is "enough" for the other players in your group. That's a very toxic outlook. If, for instance, my group fails Subject 6 burn on T4 because I'm only capable of dealing 10k dps. That's me asking other players to carry me through content I refuse to adjust to. It's inconsiderate. Arcdps is the tool I use to help me avoid that scenario.

 

Basically, my policy is that when it comes to group content I put the needs of the group before my own. If it's not a good match, I will gladly see my way out so they can find a better one. They don't owe me anything.

 

 

 

[Katary.7096]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Katary.7096" said:

> >

> > I can say with confidence that I am capable of utilizing knifes and cars without breaking any rules. How would someone who is using cheats or bots when playing gw2 play the game without breaking any rules?

>

> Well, look above. People think using taco for ability akin to wallhack in other games is not considered cheating.

At the current point in time the features offered by taco are not considered cheats according to Arenanet. That means using taco is not cheating, no matter what you or I or anyone else thinks about that decision. The same happens to apply to arcdps right now.

> Plus, there are plenty of countermeasures that auto detect cheats in various games. No need for you to even misuse them or hurt anyone with them.

That is true.

>But, let's play your game. Let's say I use bots to gather materials for me. I then use those materials to upgrade my personal guild hall that no one else has access to. I didn't break any laws or hurt anyone.

> Or even If I decided to donate those materials to new players, I wouldn't break any laws with that.

I assume you understand that there are differences between rules and laws, so why are you treating them interchangeably here? I asked how one could play gw2 while using bots and/ or cheats without breaking rules, not laws. And since the rules for gw2 state that you are not allowed to use bots, your argumentation (I do not hurt anyone.) is without consequences. You gave me a response but you have not answered my question.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > you also drink coffee and build paper planes all day at work and expect to get the same recognition as your hard working colleagues?

> > and when you get fired you start complaining that it's unjustified?

> >

> > you wanna go back to the "good ol' times"?

> > fine, so you don't get fired because you're not performing, you get fired because you're a woman.

> > thats better, right?!

> >

> > it's basically the same with dps meters.

> > players were getting kicked for playing the wrong class or not having enough AP, simply because the group didnt have anything else to base their decision on.

> > now that they have Arc they can allow off-meta players and see if theyre performing.

> > or to get back to my analogy: they have the data to prove that women are performing just as well as men. sometimes even better.

> > i dont see how that's a bad thing...

>

> And when they aren't performing to your standards, they deserve to be ridiculed, right? It might be that they aren't even bad, just not "at your level" as it were. Can't skip all those mechanics if you don't do enough DPS, you know, to make the "difficulty" disappear.

 

No. But what does that have to do with it? Players should be polite to each other regardless. That doesn't change the fact that if you want to avoid toxicity it is helpful to know how you compare to other players and work to improve to a point where you aren't a burden to most random groups you join. Arcdps helps players do that.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

>

>

>

> > We cannot do the same with Arc, because Arc primary purpose is completely benign. Yes, it can _also_ be used by toxic people to "justify" toxic behaviour, in the same way a frying pan can be used to smash someone's head, but in said case it's the toxic behaviour that is a problem, not using Arc itself.

> That's a fair point about cheats, I agree. It wasn't the best analogy from me, but argument would stay the same. If you say that only factor that contributes to the problem is people and tool has nothing to do with it, like some suggested, than we have a problem. Because with that logic, we could allow any kind of tool and if it's being misused, we could just point finger at people and say "well, talk to them".

>

> There are games where developers and players are very much against certain things like dps meters, mods, overlays, even afk farming, while other companies allow them. Why? Well, I guess some of them concluded it potentially provides more harm than good. And it certainly isn't something that would be very much needed to complete anything in game, so why risk it.

>

> And that's what my opinion is and why I'm against it. From my own experience, I see it doing more harm than good. I see people using it to insult others. I see people using it to kick other for not contributing enough, even though they are contributing enough to complete the instance. I see people trying to be cool boys and reach that sweet 40k, failing to realize they can't do it outside perfectly organized raid with certain party composition and builds - because it depends on the entire team. I see people caring for every single bit of dps so much, they die of basic aoes, because their eyes are glued on dps meter. I see people mistaking their high dps for being a skilled player, when they don't even understand certain mechanics/bosses, they just practiced their rotation and high dps is all that matters to them. And I could go on.

>

> I've played many online games. Maybe I was lucky, but gw2 is the first and only one I saw using dps meters (and it's the most casual game off all I played). In no other game, we had problems completing any content and having fun. DPS role was any class that was meant to dps. You played the class you enjoyed. Here in gw2, people make all classes just to have them at ready. And then they play the one that is currently meta and does most damage. I haven't seen this trend anywhere else, in all honesty.

>

> But, I digress - I just think dps meter is harmful for community. If it was self dps meter, sure, but as it is now, I don't see it being "helpful" enough to be worth it. But, hey, don't worry, looks like most people can't live without it, so I think you guys are safe.

 

Ahh the slippery slope. If we allow arcdps we must allow tools that do...whatever else we don't wish to allow. Does that make any sense? No, it doesn't. What will actually happen is that ANet will allow or disallow whatever they want for their own reasons. Arcdps is okay. Other things are not. That you arbitrarily lump them together because your basic premise is that arcdps is a cheat/hack is irrelevant. Get over it.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> >

> >

> >

> > > We cannot do the same with Arc, because Arc primary purpose is completely benign. Yes, it can _also_ be used by toxic people to "justify" toxic behaviour, in the same way a frying pan can be used to smash someone's head, but in said case it's the toxic behaviour that is a problem, not using Arc itself.

> > That's a fair point about cheats, I agree. It wasn't the best analogy from me, but argument would stay the same. If you say that only factor that contributes to the problem is people and tool has nothing to do with it, like some suggested, than we have a problem. Because with that logic, we could allow any kind of tool and if it's being misused, we could just point finger at people and say "well, talk to them".

> >

> > There are games where developers and players are very much against certain things like dps meters, mods, overlays, even afk farming, while other companies allow them. Why? Well, I guess some of them concluded it potentially provides more harm than good. And it certainly isn't something that would be very much needed to complete anything in game, so why risk it.

> >

> > And that's what my opinion is and why I'm against it. From my own experience, I see it doing more harm than good. I see people using it to insult others. I see people using it to kick other for not contributing enough, even though they are contributing enough to complete the instance. I see people trying to be cool boys and reach that sweet 40k, failing to realize they can't do it outside perfectly organized raid with certain party composition and builds - because it depends on the entire team. I see people caring for every single bit of dps so much, they die of basic aoes, because their eyes are glued on dps meter. I see people mistaking their high dps for being a skilled player, when they don't even understand certain mechanics/bosses, they just practiced their rotation and high dps is all that matters to them. And I could go on.

> >

> > I've played many online games. Maybe I was lucky, but gw2 is the first and only one I saw using dps meters (and it's the most casual game off all I played). In no other game, we had problems completing any content and having fun. DPS role was any class that was meant to dps. You played the class you enjoyed. Here in gw2, people make all classes just to have them at ready. And then they play the one that is currently meta and does most damage. I haven't seen this trend anywhere else, in all honesty.

> >

> > But, I digress - I just think dps meter is harmful for community. If it was self dps meter, sure, but as it is now, I don't see it being "helpful" enough to be worth it. But, hey, don't worry, looks like most people can't live without it, so I think you guys are safe.

>

> Ahh the slippery slope. If we allow arcdps we must allow tools that do...whatever else we don't wish to allow. Does that make any sense? No, it doesn't. What will actually happen is that ANet will allow or disallow whatever they want for their own reasons. Arcdps is okay. Other things are not. That you arbitrarily lump them together because your basic premise is that arcdps is a cheat/hack is irrelevant. Get over it.

 

Exactly. And let's not forget that ArcDPS used to have a template system and when Anet released their own they asked the developer to remove it, and he did. Meaning there is a healthy relationship between Anet and ArcDPS, they cannot add whatever they want in the program.

 

Let's also not forget that another famous dps meter was banned because it allowed gear inspections. Anet once more asked the developer to remove that functionality, he did, but added a separate version of the program that still had that functionality, masked it as "for GW2 China only". Of course Anet figured out his pathetic excuse of hiding a feature that wasn't allowed and the program was effectively banned.

 

On the other hand, there is absolutely no communication between Anet and "actual cheat" creators (obviously) so putting cheats and taco/arcdps in the same category is just a misguided attempt at finding a "flaw" in ArcDPS. Now the argument would have merit if a "cheater creator" was in direct talks with Anet, admitting their creation and their username, and for some reason Anet found out that said cheat was "ok" after testing it. But I really doubt Anet would allow such cheats and make them legal.

[Hyrai.8720]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> >Again, it is not up to you to decide how much damage is "enough" for the other players in your group.

> But it's up to them to decide whether my dps is below their subjective limit, so they can kick me? Nice logic.

 

of course it is. and you're free to create your own group with your own subjective limit.

 

 

[Hyrai.8720]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > > @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > > > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > > > you also drink coffee and build paper planes all day at work and expect to get the same recognition as your hard working colleagues?

> > > > and when you get fired you start complaining that it's unjustified?

> > > >

> > > > you wanna go back to the "good ol' times"?

> > > > fine, so you don't get fired because you're not performing, you get fired because you're a woman.

> > > > thats better, right?!

> > > >

> > > > it's basically the same with dps meters.

> > > > players were getting kicked for playing the wrong class or not having enough AP, simply because the group didnt have anything else to base their decision on.

> > > > now that they have Arc they can allow off-meta players and see if theyre performing.

> > > > or to get back to my analogy: they have the data to prove that women are performing just as well as men. sometimes even better.

> > > > i dont see how that's a bad thing...

> > >

> > > And when they aren't performing to your standards, they deserve to be ridiculed, right?

> >

> > To stay with my analogy:

> > If your performance doesnt match your salary your boss has every right to ridicule you, doesnt he?

>

> Your boss has the right to fire you. What benefit would there be in ridiculing someone? Oh yeah, "fun". Besides, if you think doing things like raids in game is like working a job, you might consider if playing that part of the game is worth the stress. Just something to think about.

 

i was expecting the "if raiding is like a job to you..." reply.. ^^ it's just an analogy, don't take it too seriously.

 

however:

with almost 4 years experience in raiding i can say with confidence that most commanders will not ridicule a "bad" player. the main root for toxicity is kicked players starting to flame the commander.

[ASP.8093]

> @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> Can't skip all those mechanics if you don't do enough DPS, you know, to make the "difficulty" disappear.

 

One of the mechanics you'll see sometimes, e.g. in Underground Facility, is bosses that _heal back up_. I can assure you the groups only doing 5% chip damage to him every burn phase are also the groups that can't manage to interrupt that healing consistently.

 

So there goes your whole run.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> >Again, it is not up to you to decide how much damage is "enough" for the other players in your group.

> But it's up to them to decide whether my dps is below their subjective limit, so they can kick me? Nice logic.

> >They don't owe me anything.

> And you don't owe them anything. It's a video game that people play for fun. No one is getting payed. Don't be kitten ridiculous. If someone decided to use dps meter and make up their subjective limit of where they separate contribution from non-contribution and make their subjective rules, that's their problem and I certainly don't owe them to respect their opinion on how to play the game and what they considered "enough" dps.

 

If someone makes or joins a group where the stated preference is "all welcome" or even "DPS meters not welcome," then what stops people from enforcing their preferences in that group?

 

If someone joins a group with stated preferences which would lead one to believe that high performance is the group's goal, why should that group not enforce their preferences any more than the other group?

 

Surely, you are welcome to your views on how to play the game. So too should the players who want to enforce standards be welcome to theirs. The only logical conclusion is that with such diametrically opposed preferences, the two groups _shouldn't play together_. It only really becomes an issue when the two groups play together in instanced content. If someone is waving their DPS flag in open world play, then they deserve a block or report, depending on whether their comments are merely annoying or offensive.

 

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

>

> And that's what my opinion is and why I'm against it. From my own experience, I see it doing more harm than good. I see people using it to insult others. I see people using it to kick other for not contributing enough, even though they are contributing enough to complete the instance. I see people trying to be cool boys and reach that sweet 40k, failing to realize they can't do it outside perfectly organized raid with certain party composition and builds - because it depends on the entire team. I see people caring for every single bit of dps so much, they die of basic aoes, because their eyes are glued on dps meter. I see people mistaking their high dps for being a skilled player, when they don't even understand certain mechanics/bosses, they just practiced their rotation and high dps is all that matters to them. And I could go on.

 

And yet insults, kicks and exclusion happened almost from the start of the game, about the time casual players caught up to the more "instance-focused" players doing dungeons. That was long before ARC was allowed and there were no meters. There is no reason to conclude that banning meters would do anything other than shift the excuse for such behavior to something else that is likely to be less relevant. Sure, someone's performance may suffer if their eyes are "glued to" a meter, but there is no helping such people just as there is no helping someone who brings 300 DPS to a strike as a non-support (laugh if you will, I've seen it) -- unless either _wants_ help.

 

> I've played many online games. Maybe I was lucky, but gw2 is the first and only one I saw using dps meters (and it's the most casual game off all I played). In no other game, we had problems completing any content and having fun. DPS role was any class that was meant to dps. You played the class you enjoyed. Here in gw2, people make all classes just to have them at ready. And then they play the one that is currently meta and does most damage. I haven't seen this trend anywhere else, in all honesty.

 

I can't speak to every game you've played. However, I suspect you've been lucky. I've seen meta enforcement in every game I've played. I've even seen a game where the "helpful hints" on loading screens encouraged players to kick others from groups if they were "holding the group back."

 

> But, I digress - I just think dps meter is harmful for community. If it was self dps meter, sure, but as it is now, I don't see it being "helpful" enough to be worth it.

 

See, to me, the meter has done more good than harm, even if I restrict my criteria to the subject of exclusion. As long as I stay away from groups with strong preferences for top-tier performance, I can play any content in the game that I want. That was not the case before meters, as my preferred professions were often kicked on sight. I can only conclude that the meter has loosened attitudes enough to allow that. Since the behaviors you (and I) don't care for were present in at least equal amounts before ARC was permitted (to me, greater amounts, but YMMV), I find it hard to see the basis for your conclusions.

[Hyrai.8720]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > >Again, it is not up to you to decide how much damage is "enough" for the other players in your group.

> > > But it's up to them to decide whether my dps is below their subjective limit, so they can kick me? Nice logic.

> >

> > of course it is. and you're free to create your own group with your own subjective limit.

>

>

> I'm pointing out their logical inconsistency and you come in to make entirely different point that makes no sense in that context. Bravo.

 

your point was pretty much: the only acceptable limits are those limits set by the game itself (see quote below).

others disagreed, saying players are free to set their own limits (even if they exceed the bare minimum) and only accept players in their squad that agree to those limits.

no logical inconsistency there.

 

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> The only content you could put a limit on and then argue that not reaching said limit, it is considered not contributing, could be stuff like raids or other content that has timer on it, because you can calculate average needed dps per player in order to beat the content.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

Did severals comments get deleted page 7?

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"Hyrai.8720" said:

 

> your point was pretty much: the only acceptable limits are those limits set by the game itself (see quote below).

> others disagreed, saying players are free to set their own limits (even if they exceed the bare minimum) and only accept players in their squad that agree to those limits.

> no logical inconsistency there.

I see you are having a bit of trouble. So here, let me help you up, ok?

Dude says: "Again, it is not up to you to decide how much damage is "enough" for the other players in your group."

And I reply: "But it's up to them to decide whether my dps is below their subjective limit, so they can kick me? Nice logic."

Take your time.

 

It's not me who is deciding anything about anyones dps. It's certain people who use dps meter. I'm just joining the group and killing stuff. And if I do let's say 15k dps and top guy does 20k, he could decide that by his pure opinion, I'm not contributing enough and kicks me. (I've yet to see lfg that would says 20k required or something like that in almost 8 years of playing).

[Yggranya.5201]

> @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > > > @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > > > > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

> > > > > you also drink coffee and build paper planes all day at work and expect to get the same recognition as your hard working colleagues?

> > > > > and when you get fired you start complaining that it's unjustified?

> > > > >

> > > > > you wanna go back to the "good ol' times"?

> > > > > fine, so you don't get fired because you're not performing, you get fired because you're a woman.

> > > > > thats better, right?!

> > > > >

> > > > > it's basically the same with dps meters.

> > > > > players were getting kicked for playing the wrong class or not having enough AP, simply because the group didnt have anything else to base their decision on.

> > > > > now that they have Arc they can allow off-meta players and see if theyre performing.

> > > > > or to get back to my analogy: they have the data to prove that women are performing just as well as men. sometimes even better.

> > > > > i dont see how that's a bad thing...

> > > >

> > > > And when they aren't performing to your standards, they deserve to be ridiculed, right?

> > >

> > > To stay with my analogy:

> > > If your performance doesnt match your salary your boss has every right to ridicule you, doesnt he?

> >

> > Your boss has the right to fire you. What benefit would there be in ridiculing someone? Oh yeah, "fun". Besides, if you think doing things like raids in game is like working a job, you might consider if playing that part of the game is worth the stress. Just something to think about.

>

> i was expecting the "if raiding is like a job to you..." reply.. ^^ it's just an analogy, don't take it too seriously.

>

> however:

> with almost 4 years experience in raiding i can say with confidence that most commanders will not ridicule a "bad" player. the main root for toxicity is kicked players starting to flame the commander.

 

Nah, the main root is that people have some obsession with turning everything from a team effort to a pissing contest. Cue raids and PvP (and really, everything else where you have to deal with other people). PvP is PvP so it is what it is, of course, but raids are no better.

 

All i have ever expected from other people is that if we need to work together, you do your job to help us all win. If that is too much to ask, well... It's not like i can do anything, except maybe report them. I admit, sometimes i can't help it but ask them why (in perhaps slightly more colorful words) or tell them they suck. And so, i play less and less of MMOs. Maybe i will permanently stop sooner or later. Why? Way too much experience with this shit.

[serialkicker.5274]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

 

 

> If someone makes or joins a group where the stated preference is "all welcome" or even "DPS meters not welcome," then what stops people from enforcing their preferences in that group?

 

> If someone joins a group with stated preferences which would lead one to believe that high performance is the group's goal, why should that group not enforce their preferences any more than the other group?

This "you can make your own group" argument is getting old, repetitive and silly. It goes for both sides. I'm not arguing they can't have requirements and kick people from group for not following them. I'm arguing that having these rules or mindset in the first place is just unfortunate and quite silly. And using third party software to enforce those rules is just... taking things too seriously in a video game. I think it badly affects the community. I find it sad that people don't have any respect and faith in their fellow players in community to be able to contribute on their own. I find it sad that efficiency and numbers are the top priority for many and that they would deny others from joining the fun, just because they don't wish push buttons in same pattern over and over again or carry a weapon that is currently considered the best for their class. Imagine if we treated every entertainment that way. Trying to play some casual football with your friends and they'd tell you "hey, until you get these sweet ass sneakers and score at least 3 goals, you aren't playing with us, boy". Heck, even in competitive scene, people like to experiment and beat opponents with techniques and tactics that haven't been done before.

 

People get easily influenced and fall into mindset that most people are following. One day I play with this chill guildie, we do some smooth and fun runs, company is good and then... two weeks later all he can talk about is rotation and how much dps he can pull. Comes to the point where he start questioning my choice of weapons, because they are not current meta. It's just silly and sad. And I can still outdps him and have a lot more knowledge on mechanics, but that doesn't matter, because I won't be able to end up in parties with those people (well if it's guildie he'll make an exception usually out of politnes), because apparently they all think if you are not following meta or if you don't use dps meter to monitor yourself, you don't care about your performance and you are bad player.

 

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > @"Hyrai.8720" said:

>

> > your point was pretty much: the only acceptable limits are those limits set by the game itself (see quote below).

> > others disagreed, saying players are free to set their own limits (even if they exceed the bare minimum) and only accept players in their squad that agree to those limits.

> > no logical inconsistency there.

> I see you are having a bit of trouble. So here, let me help you up, ok?

> Dude says: "Again, it is not up to you to decide how much damage is "enough" for the other players in your group."

> And I reply: "But it's up to them to decide whether my dps is below their subjective limit, so they can kick me? Nice logic."

> Take your time.

>

> It's not me who is deciding anything about anyones dps. It's certain people who use dps meter. I'm just joining the group and killing stuff. And if I do let's say 15k dps and top guy does 20k, he could decide that by his pure opinion, I'm not contributing enough and kicks me. (I've yet to see lfg that would says 20k required or something like that in almost 8 years of playing).

 

Groups can decide what their requirements are and whether or not they want you there. Why is that so difficult to wrap your head around? It's a group and 4 players have more say than 1.

 

Don't like it? Form your own group and do what you can to avoid issues by, for instance, not taking your minstrel thief to a raid.

 

Pretty simple. You do your part and don't expect 4-9 other players to adjust to your specific needs and you should have no problems. But act like you're entitled to do whatever you want with no consideration to others and you will have problems.

 

All of this has no bearing on whether or not players use arcdps. Just put others first and you'll be fine.