Firebrand needs to be getting the same treatment as Scourge

[Justine.6351]

Yes need to nerf more stuff into the ground so more people give up and leave.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

Maybe if we buffed Shattered Aegis instead we might see Firebrands convert to a dps spec, and less of a boon ball spec?

 

D:

[Mil.3562]

This thread is about FB, so please don't bring Scrapper into this. Few years back antitoxin Scrapper has already been nerfed 10 feet into the ground when they did a few highhanded nerfs to Scrapper's support traits and also antitoxin rune was nerfed TWICE and no one uses it now.

 

FB is the only profession scoring A+ in heals, blocks, stability and condi cleanse. Who would want a support scrapper, heal tempest or barrier scourge when one FB can do all and more?

[Shroud.2307]

I thought I was pretty clear that I wasn't asking for it to be gutted or for any unwarranted nerfs, in fact I didn't ask for anything specific to be nerfed at all. And that I wasn't saying it was the only problem in zergs or the singular reason for the existence of the boonball, but as per usual people have a hard time with reading comprehension on this forum and just want to point fingers instead.

 

Some of my complaints may have been misdirected, but what I know for certain is the necessity for and the prevalence of Firebrand in all areas of WvW, as well as the consistency at which it avoids receiving the adjustments that other things do.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

scrapper still excells in healing and is necessary, since most nooby zergs spam condi, since bad compositioned open groups cannot sustain the cleanse needed - usually because firebrands and scrappers are running offense sets or are non-existant.

 

u probably only notice it because its the best healer and overall supporter and the wrongly played firebrands suck while a well played is kinda another world, but u need to know your combofields and weaponswaps for that, as well as to cast what when where, when to pull back etc

 

firebrand healing and cooldowns as well as and most importantly, target caps, got nerfed yet. one firebrand can only sustain 5 ppl properly with each skill use.

 

besides, if people wouldn't jump in every red circle they see, healers would have way less work. or imagine if they find the dodging button when they'd need it for once :open_mouth: or imagine they'd use correct food...

 

besides, firebrand in full minstrel gear obviously does not deal a real damage, which is also kinda thing to keep in mind.

 

also, we answer here to all posters, not only to the opening post :9 and the "yay kill FB" kitten ranger/thiefs crawl out of their holes always quite quickly... ;P

[Tiawal.2351]

Fine tuning some details, for a reason, could be useful, but without knowledge how these parts interact with each other will lead to a big mess. I don't really care about any class, can play any and all can be deleted. Or replaced by something else. I will adapt, and after a while will feel the same anyway.

 

The main parts that a WvW support Firebrand gives are stability and sustain (through protection, condi clears, heals).

Heal & Support Scrapper and Tempest can both do the sustain part, but no other class can also give stability to the whole party -- which is crucial for the Firebrand as much as it is for Scrapper & Tempest, because none of these 3 can do their sustain job properly without a well timed stability support.

The only way to no longer need Firebrand in a party is to give stability to every class, same way as main heal was given to everyone; and of course failed, because there's no way to both keep class & build variety AND properly balance sustain vs. damage output for everyone -- some classes have way better heals, others damage, and some bad heal & bad damage, good heal & good damage. Because variety. Same will be with stability.

 

There's a good reason why GROUP play has roles: tank, heal & DPS, with some buff & debuff. FPS team games have other role names, but always a role brings something the others don't have and the team as a whole needs it.

 

Firebrand is a tanky healer, with essential buffs. Scourge is a debuff & DPS combo. Full damage Weaver is just DPS. DPS Herald Rev has buffs and some debuffs. And so on, every "useful" build brings something that they can do better than other builds.

There is nothing to fix in this part: all these builds & roles are USELESS alone, they are meant to work together.

 

Nothing complicated here: always the best combos are used (weapon, skill, trait, gear, whatever). "Fix" it and the next best replaces it. Always a few builds will dominate, because they work best together. There's no way to make all builds equal, though they could be closer "balanced" IF variety is reduced: as in every class & build will fell more like clones of each other. It's either clones or meta vs. "useless".

[Justine.6351]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> I thought I was pretty clear that I wasn't asking for it to be gutted or for any unwarranted nerfs, in fact I didn't ask for anything specific to be nerfed at all. And that I wasn't saying it was the only problem in zergs or the singular reason for the existence of the boonball, but as per usual people have a hard time with reading comprehension on this forum and just want to point fingers instead.

>

> Some of my complaints may have been misdirected, but what I know for certain is the necessity for and the prevalence of Firebrand in all areas of WvW, as well as the consistency at which it avoids receiving the adjustments that other things do.

 

uh firebrand has been nerfed many times. idk where you have been.

[Shiyo.3578]

The issue is minstrels armor and concentration as a stat in WvW.

Firebrand is ZERO issue in SPvP because busted minstrels doesn't exist and neither does boon duration.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> The issue is minstrels armor and concentration as a stat in WvW.

> Firebrand is ZERO issue in SPvP because busted minstrels doesn't exist and neither does boon duration.

 

No, it's not.

 

The reason and issue which Firebrand counters was mentioned: **it's the most reliable class for easy stability and character control loss counter. Which is needed when pushing.**

 

Firebrand remains very flexible with his tomes, weapons and utilities, but was heavily nerfed in healing and cleansing output. The only thing that remains now is its dominance in stability application paired with agies (and even those where nerfed) and utility across multiple areas, in which he excels at none (his healing is shit compared to other healers, his condi cleanse is shit, his cooldowns are shit, his remaining boons are barely noticeable).

 

Boon duration has nothing to do with Firebrand dominance in WvW. You could have 0 boon duration, and Firebrand would still be meta right now only that people would need to time stability application better.

 

@Infusion.7149 gave a pretty good summary of where classes are at in WvW. Most of the remaining players in this thread: no idea where you play WvW but it certainly is not in GW2.

 

The reason FB is not meta in Spvp has also nothing to do with minstrel not being available.

[Yasai.3549]

Imo the game is due for a blanket boon nerf.

 

Boons are a sickness in this game's balance.

 

Unlike Enchantments, Boons started to get crazy the moment stacking was a thing which led to wanton Boon spam with little to no repercussions while providing increasingly high benefits.

 

PvP and WvW should receive a strong hit to boons because even with Boon application getting nerfed, people supplemented with even more Boon spammers, similar to how when SoI got nerfed, people just brought MORE Chronos.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> Imo the game is due for a blanket boon nerf.

>

> Boons are a sickness in this game's balance.

>

> Unlike Enchantments, Boons started to get crazy the moment stacking was a thing which led to wanton Boon spam with little to no repercussions while providing increasingly high benefits.

>

> PvP and WvW should receive a strong hit to boons because even with Boon application getting nerfed, people supplemented with even more Boon spammers, similar to how when SoI got nerfed, people just brought MORE Chronos.

 

Again, boons are not the issue. The issue is minstrels armor, which allows you to be a completely passive character that cannot die and be punished for supporting, while also providing max boon duration and healing power.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > The issue is minstrels armor and concentration as a stat in WvW.

> > Firebrand is ZERO issue in SPvP because busted minstrels doesn't exist and neither does boon duration.

>

> No, it's not.

 

 

I don't think anyones annoyed or mad about stability. Stability is perfectly fine. They're annoyed and mad about the fact they can't punish this boon bot that's making their entire zerg immune to CC with tons of aegis/reflects because minstrels makes them completely non-interactable.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

see, you don't understand firebrand, not even a bit. "total passive char that cannot die" LUL

 

neither boons, nor minstrel, nor firebrand are one of the - quite numerous - issues that Wvw has... but hey, the devs also don't understand the meta, why would all players do.

 

just look how fast we ping-pong from one thing to the next made up "issue", just because u refuse to run in groups and to use proper boonstrips. spellbreaker has a potentially invulnerable bubble option that pulses boonstrips and gives a solid time of bombing momentum, necro classes are the corruption lords etc, two other extremly strong classes in Wvw.

 

besides, you'll never lose just because the firebrand over there has minstrel gear, that's just the logic standard variant.

 

also, if u ever played firebrand in real tough battles, you'd know that "passive" is not a term that your keyboard would agree with, since u mash through your weapons, mantras and episodes on another level of fury. u can provide much, that's why u also need to do that. firebrands usually lead the push, if they don't die to your bombs, that may be very well because they just pressed the dodge key... yeah i know, they should really nerf dodges eh? clearly against the rules when your far too early casted panic bomb doesn't hit and kill immediately. clearly boons and armor of the firebrand made him invincible, and not probably the cleanes of the scrapper, the bubble of the warrior, the stealth engage, etc :innocent:

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > Imo the game is due for a blanket boon nerf.

> >

> > Boons are a sickness in this game's balance.

> >

> > Unlike Enchantments, Boons started to get crazy the moment stacking was a thing which led to wanton Boon spam with little to no repercussions while providing increasingly high benefits.

> >

> > PvP and WvW should receive a strong hit to boons because even with Boon application getting nerfed, people supplemented with even more Boon spammers, similar to how when SoI got nerfed, people just brought MORE Chronos.

>

> Again, boons are not the issue. The issue is minstrels armor, which allows you to be a completely passive character that cannot die and be punished for supporting, while also providing max boon duration and healing power.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > The issue is minstrels armor and concentration as a stat in WvW.

> > > Firebrand is ZERO issue in SPvP because busted minstrels doesn't exist and neither does boon duration.

> >

> > No, it's not.

>

>

> I don't think anyones annoyed or mad about stability. Stability is perfectly fine. They're annoyed and mad about the fact they can't punish this boon bot that's making their entire zerg immune to CC with tons of aegis/reflects because minstrels makes them completely non-interactable.

 

You should make a Minstrel Firebrand. Take it to WvW. Make a note of the boon durations on the boons it actually provides, then compare those to other classes like herald and scrapper. It is pretty clear you missed the last few rounds of nerfs...

 

Suffice to say, it is clear you have never tried to make a note of where the boons in WvW currently come from.

 

While at it, have a friend make a roaming character and focus you down, just in case you don't know how a Firebrand dies under pressure. That might give you some understanding as to why it doesn't work in Spvp any more after the nerfs, especially once those cds are down unrelated to minstrels.

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > > Imo the game is due for a blanket boon nerf.

> > >

> > > Boons are a sickness in this game's balance.

> > >

> > > Unlike Enchantments, Boons started to get crazy the moment stacking was a thing which led to wanton Boon spam with little to no repercussions while providing increasingly high benefits.

> > >

> > > PvP and WvW should receive a strong hit to boons because even with Boon application getting nerfed, people supplemented with even more Boon spammers, similar to how when SoI got nerfed, people just brought MORE Chronos.

> >

> > Again, boons are not the issue. The issue is minstrels armor, which allows you to be a completely passive character that cannot die and be punished for supporting, while also providing max boon duration and healing power.

> >

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > The issue is minstrels armor and concentration as a stat in WvW.

> > > > Firebrand is ZERO issue in SPvP because busted minstrels doesn't exist and neither does boon duration.

> > >

> > > No, it's not.

> >

> >

> > I don't think anyones annoyed or mad about stability. Stability is perfectly fine. They're annoyed and mad about the fact they can't punish this boon bot that's making their entire zerg immune to CC with tons of aegis/reflects because minstrels makes them completely non-interactable.

>

> You should make a Minstrel Firebrand. Take it to WvW. Make a note of the boon durations on the boons it actually provides, then compare those to other classes like herald and scrapper. It is pretty clear you missed the last few rounds of nerfs...

>

> Suffice to say, it is clear you have never tried to make a note of where the boons in WvW currently come from.

>

> While at it, have a friend make a roaming character and focus you down, just in case you don't know how a Firebrand dies under pressure. That might give you some understanding as to why it doesn't work in Spvp any more after the nerfs, especially once those cds are down unrelated to minstrels.

 

Nothing with minstrels gear dies under pressure dude. It's an invincible character that can hold W and tank up to 3 people effortlessly until it gets to a fort/keep.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > > > > > Imo the game is due for a blanket boon nerf.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Boons are a sickness in this game's balance.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Unlike Enchantments, Boons started to get crazy the moment stacking was a thing which led to wanton Boon spam with little to no repercussions while providing increasingly high benefits.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > PvP and WvW should receive a strong hit to boons because even with Boon application getting nerfed, people supplemented with even more Boon spammers, similar to how when SoI got nerfed, people just brought MORE Chronos.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, boons are not the issue. The issue is minstrels armor, which allows you to be a completely passive character that cannot die and be punished for supporting, while also providing max boon duration and healing power.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > > The issue is minstrels armor and concentration as a stat in WvW.

> > > > > > > Firebrand is ZERO issue in SPvP because busted minstrels doesn't exist and neither does boon duration.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No, it's not.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't think anyones annoyed or mad about stability. Stability is perfectly fine. They're annoyed and mad about the fact they can't punish this boon bot that's making their entire zerg immune to CC with tons of aegis/reflects because minstrels makes them completely non-interactable.

> > > >

> > > > You should make a Minstrel Firebrand. Take it to WvW. Make a note of the boon durations on the boons it actually provides, then compare those to other classes like herald and scrapper. It is pretty clear you missed the last few rounds of nerfs...

> > > >

> > > > Suffice to say, it is clear you have never tried to make a note of where the boons in WvW currently come from.

> > > >

> > > > While at it, have a friend make a roaming character and focus you down, just in case you don't know how a Firebrand dies under pressure. That might give you some understanding as to why it doesn't work in Spvp any more after the nerfs, especially once those cds are down unrelated to minstrels.

> > >

> > > Nothing with minstrels gear dies under pressure dude. It's an invincible character that can hold W and tank up to 3 people effortlessly until it gets to a fort/keep.

> >

> > Right. Okay I'll stop responding now to you. It is obvious you are not actively playing this game and just trolling.

>

>

>

>

> Seems like I actively play the game.

>

> So you give up on discussion because someone disagrees with you? That's really odd.

 

No, I give up because you clearly don't play the game modes, don't try to understand mere basics of the modes and differences even when people clearly explain them to you. You are just parroting what others say without activaly playing the game.

 

Boon duration is of minor concern in WvW, similar to condition duration, because in general one assumes that boons will get corrupted and conditions will get cleansed or converted on a regular basis. Both duration extending stats are secondary in this mode, especially on Firebrand. Again, maybe take a look at which boons the class provides and how long. The reason boon duration is a thing is because between 4-stats and the bonus they give over 3-stats and diminishing returns on +healing, minstrel works best, but as far as Firebrand and its role, cleric would work nearly just as good in WvW or even celestial if Mibstrel was removed (and there actually are people running not full minstrels).

 

Not sure what the linked video is supposed to show. The link lead to a moment where Vallun is roaming on a Holo (aka engi, aka a class with a ton of escape mechanisms unrelated to gear) and I didn't feel like watching a 2+ hour video for that 1 moment that is supposed to prove any point.

 

The difference between WvW, 5v5 Spvp and 2v2 Spvp is size and amount of players. Not only damage wise, but also utility and skill wise, say boon management. In WvW Firebrand make the group function while pressured by X other palyers, X being often 10, 20 or 30 damage dealers dropping damage on 1 spot, while keeping the Firebrand safe via size of squad and other classes soaking damage and secondary supports. In 5v5 Spvp, Firebrand will burn through cds if focused and eventually die, unlike other support or tank orient d builds, while the class has 0 pressure. In 2v2 the class is a gimmick where you hope the opponenets have no boon denial.

[Shiyo.3578]

I literally linked me playing WvW and 2v2(Shiyo Okabe and Shiyo Gasai) recently dude, lol. I even linked the time where he invites me to his group and then we roam together and you can see me actively playing WvW YESTERDAY with video proof. I play the game actively. I'm actually doing strike missions RIGHT NOW and will WvW later.

 

Firebrands weakness is being focused and dying. Minstrels makes you a completely unviable target and nearly unkillable outside of extreme pressure. SPvP does not have minstrels, so firebrands weakness is apparent and taken advantage of. Firebrand has no weakness in WvW due to minstrels and thus is too powerful.

 

Minstrels armor is the issue, NOT firebrand.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> I literally linked me playing WvW and 2v2(Shiyo Okabe and Shiyo Gasai) recently dude, lol. I even linked the time where he invites me to his group and then we roam together and you can see me actively playing WvW YESTERDAY with video proof. I play the game actively. I'm actually doing strike missions RIGHT NOW and will WvW later.

 

Roaming, the main content of WvW mode. Thing of note: meeting no boon denial roamers on opposing team.

 

Literally what I said about 2v2 and 5v5. You bank on the opponents not being able to deal with boons.

 

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Firebrands weakness is being focused and dying. Minstrels makes you a completely unviable target and nearly unkillable outside of extreme pressure. SPvP does not have minstrels, so firebrands weakness is apparent and taken advantage of. Firebrand has no weakness in WvW due to minstrels and thus is too powerful.

>

> Minstrels armor is the issue, NOT firebrand.

 

Okay, now bare with me for a moment. Why does minstrel make the Firebrand an unviable target in WvW? Let's assume for a second it's because it extends Firebrand suvivability beyond what other targets have, as such making other targets more viable.

 

Would this situation be achievable with other stats? Toughness, healing, vitality being essential here.

 

Is boon duration required for the Firebrand to perform its role in WvW? Does it in any way reduce the access the Firebrand has to its essential skills and boons? Of major significance being stability and aegis. The main assumption here: no, boon duration is not required.

 

So, if we remove minstrel from WvW, given the points mentioned, given that similar Firebrand survival can be achieved via other stats (to the point where other targets are better) and given that boon duration is not needed for Firebrand to perform its role, how is minstrel stats exatcly the issue?

[Shiyo.3578]

Any double defensive stats, and toughness in general, is an issue. It's why toughness basically DOESN'T exist in SPvP anymore. Rabid amulet is terrible and Paladins has very low toughness.

 

The issue is you not only get 2 very strong stats for supporting(Boon dura and healing), you ALSO get 2 defensive stats that make you a brick wall. This combination is too powerful.

All double defensive stat gear needs to be re-evaluated and toughness needs to be removed off of a lot of gear, especially gear with other useful stats like trialblazers, dire, etc.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Any double defensive stats, and toughness in general, is an issue. It's why toughness basically DOESN'T exist in SPvP anymore. Rabid amulet is terrible and Paladins has very low toughness.

>

> All double defensive stat gear needs to be re-evaluated and toughness needs to be removed off of a lot of gear, especially gear with other useful stats like trialblazers, dire, etc.

 

Ah, now that is a very different argument than "minstrel" is the issue.

 

Now going off of that thought, and I am not saying I disagree, removal of double defensive stats is only part of the issue, given how mix and matching exists, as does celestial gear. Also which stats are we going to consider defensive stats? Vitality and Toughness only? Okay, Giver's, Cleric's, Apothecary, Crusader are available for Toughness+Healing +X, as are Shaman's, Wanderer's and Plaguedoctor (the main issue here being less Primary vitality gear) for Vitality+Healing+X.

 

The core issue here being: increased TTK on supports. Firebrand will always have a higher TTK versus damage dealers in WvW, as will all other supports, by simple reason that damage dealers run full damage gear and supports run as much support gear as possible while supplementing the remaining stat potential with survival elements to allow for longer support.

 

Yet we arrive at the same question in regard to Firebrand: would this in any way shift the situation that Firebrand ever becomes a prime target versus other targets, and how would this affect its ability to provide its primary function?

 

EDIT:

This is going off topic though. The topic being Firebrand and WvW. Following a simple train of thought here:

1. no class can (or should) survive being blasted by an excess amount of enemy players (as is the case often in WvW)

2. no class can (or should) be able to tank being blasted by an excess amount of enemy players for an extended period of time via skills (hello warrior pre nerf)

3. 1+2 mean that the best method of survival is not being blasted by an excess amount of players in the first place, for that to be possible, players need to be in control of their character and movement

4. classes which help with point 3 are required to assure survival (Firebrand for stability, other healers for cleanse)

 

In order to change the reliance on Firebrand in WvW, those points up top need to shift. Firebrand is currently a band-aid solution to one of this modes main problems: player stacking.

[ASP.8093]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Boon duration is of minor concern in WvW, similar to condition duration, because in general one assumes that boons will get corrupted and conditions will get cleansed or converted on a regular basis.

 

I think you're looking at this wrong. While the level of removal/conversion does mean a lot of boons and conditions don't last their full duration, it also makes layering boons/conditions all that much more useful because that's how you keep *some* of them up. And greater condition duration does also help force out more cleanses by making it less effective to just sustain through condition pressure with raw healing, as well as greatly powering up the CC/soft-CC conditions like Fear and Chill.

 

For Guardian specifically, extending the duration of Stability is incredibly valuable since it means you can save skills to grant more Stability when it gets stripped instead of just having to roll through your skill bar to prevent CC from wrecking your party once the engagement has started.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"ASP.8093" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Boon duration is of minor concern in WvW, similar to condition duration, because in general one assumes that boons will get corrupted and conditions will get cleansed or converted on a regular basis.

>

> I think you're looking at this wrong. While the level of removal/conversion does mean a lot of boons and conditions don't last their full duration, it also makes layering boons/conditions all that much more useful because that's how you keep *some* of them up. And greater condition duration does also help force out more cleanses by making it less effective to just sustain through condition pressure with raw healing, as well as greatly powering up the CC/soft-CC conditions like Fear and Chill.

>

> For Guardian specifically, extending the duration of Stability is incredibly valuable since it means you can save skills to grant more Stability when it gets stripped instead of just having to roll through your skill bar to prevent CC from wrecking your party once the engagement has started.

 

Hence why I said:

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Boon duration has nothing to do with Firebrand dominance in WvW. You could have 0 boon duration, and Firebrand would still be meta right now only that people would need to **time stability application better**.

 

Would having no boon duration have an effect? Sure, if the stat was fully useless, it would see no use. Would it in any way remove Firebrand from the meta? No, on the contrary, it would increase the dependence on it.

 

Also stability in general is either stripped via warrior bubble, in which case it can not be reapplied and longer duration is meaningless, or it is converted via necros, in which it converts into fear, at which point you want your scrappers to reconvert ideally, or your tempest to cleanse.

 

The class you want boon duration on primarily in the current meta is scrapper for the Purity of Purpose conversion, with maybe Diviner Renegades. It's not that boon duration is useless, I never said that. It's that the Firebrand can function without it.

[ASP.8093]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"ASP.8093" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > Boon duration is of minor concern in WvW, similar to condition duration, because in general one assumes that boons will get corrupted and conditions will get cleansed or converted on a regular basis.

> >

> > I think you're looking at this wrong. While the level of removal/conversion does mean a lot of boons and conditions don't last their full duration, it also makes layering boons/conditions all that much more useful because that's how you keep *some* of them up. And greater condition duration does also help force out more cleanses by making it less effective to just sustain through condition pressure with raw healing, as well as greatly powering up the CC/soft-CC conditions like Fear and Chill.

> >

> > For Guardian specifically, extending the duration of Stability is incredibly valuable since it means you can save skills to grant more Stability when it gets stripped instead of just having to roll through your skill bar to prevent CC from wrecking your party once the engagement has started.

>

> Hence why I said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Boon duration has nothing to do with Firebrand dominance in WvW. You could have 0 boon duration, and Firebrand would still be meta right now only that people would need to **time stability application better**.

>

> Would having no boon duration have an effect? Sure, if the stat was fully useless, it would see no use. Would it in any way remove Firebrand from the meta? No, on the contrary, it would increase the dependence on it.

>

> Also stability in general is either stripped via warrior bubble, in which case it can not be reapplied and longer duration is meaningless, or it is converted via necros, in which it converts into fear, at which point you want your scrappers to reconvert ideally, or your tempest to cleanse.

>

> The class you want boon duration on primarily in the current meta is scrapper for the Purity of Purpose conversion, with maybe Diviner Renegades. It's not that boon duration is useless, I never said that. It's that the Firebrand can function without it.

 

Hmm. Yeah, I agree that Guardian was indispensable before Concentration was a thing, and would remain powerful and central to the zerg playstyle if it were removed somehow.

[Dadnir.5038]

Guardian/firebrand is strong in WvW because there is a general imbalance between CC and CC counter in the game and Guardian/FB is the best (if not only) source of CC counter.

 

The way CC are designed is the source of the issue, ANet can nerf FB as much as people want, it won't change the fact that they will be used as a way to cope with the CC mess.

 

I'd rather have a mandatory FB than a WvW with no counter against CC. It is not fun to be CC locked to death and, unfortunately, the way WvW and CC are designed allow for stupidly long time of being CCed.

 

Stability was changed to allow some breather to CC in small scale fight but it ruined large scale fights.

 

If I had to suggest a way to lessen the importance of the guardian in zerg, I'd just suggest to spread some stability aoe onto a few other professions. Nerfing the guardian as a source of stability would be just awful.

 

Warrior: make _battle standard_ pulse stability instead of might/fury/swiftness.

Thief: make _bountiful theft_ grant stability instead of vigor.

Revenant: change the shape of _inspiring reinforcement_ in such a way that it become a simple aoe centered around the revenant.

Elementalist: introduce an earth field attached to _unsteady ground_, _sand storm_, _dust storm_, _stone tide_, _mud slide_ and _lahar_ (combo projectile/whirl bleed, combo blast grant stability and combo leap grant magnetic aura).

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Guardian/firebrand is strong in WvW because there is a general imbalance between CC and CC counter in the game and Guardian/FB is the best (if not only) source of CC counter.

>

> The way CC are designed is the source of the issue, ANet can nerf FB as much as people want, it won't change the fact that they will be used as a way to cope with the CC mess.

>

 

Exactly.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I'd rather have a mandatory FB than a WvW with no counter against CC. It is not fun to be CC locked to death and, unfortunately, the way WvW and CC are designed allow for stupidly long time of being CCed.

>

> Stability was changed to allow some breather to CC in small scale fight but it ruined large scale fights.

 

This is the core issue which would need resolving and it is in part class unrelated.

 

The game mode needs more counters to crowd control in large scale, but less in small scale. Either in form of as you suggest via wider availability of stability, which would reduce dependence on Firebrand or alleviate it, but let's not kid ourselves, the strongest anti cc class would simply replace guardian/Firebrand as meta unless a good balance is found, or there would need to be changes to how CC can be managed.

 

Which would cause issues in other game modes or different scales of player groups. Make stability work as in the past as flat anti cc boon which needs to be corrupted, and it to strong in small scale fights, make it to weak to counter mass CC spam in blob fights, and players in 50v50 fights lose all character control.

 

The difference to Scourge/Necro here is simple:

While Necro remains one of the strongest classes in form of boon denial/corrupt, it is not the only one. Scourge remains meta even now after a ton of nerfs. Not because the class is exceptionally good, but because there is no alternative to take its place in WvW, but there are work around options (more warriors, mesmer nullfields, weapon sigils). In order to work around necro/scourge you need boon denial and damage, which are available on other classes even if not in the same ideal mix as on necro.

 

There is no work around to having no party/squad wide stability at this point in time besides Firebrand (and to lesser extent guardian).

[Nimon.7840]

Well guardian is strong in every gamemode an has multiple very good builds in every gamemode.

 

Does that mean firebrand has to get nerved?

Not necessarily.

 

You could buff other classes as well, so they get reliable stability sources, that are on par with guardian.

For example you could weaken the stances of a soulbeast, like -25% effect with a trait, but that trait makes every stance apply stability (2stacks for 2 seconds)

 

For example:

Bear stance heals 25% less on condition removal

Dolyak stance doesn't protect from movement impairing conditions anymore

Moa stance doesn't increase boonduration anymore

Griffon stance doesn't give the might and superspeed while evading anymore

Vulture stance doesn't apply poison anymore

 

But every stance now grants 2stacks of stability for 2 seconds.

 

That might not be enough to make soulbeast a full viable stability support though.

Right now you have to make to many changes to other classes, to make them viable as stability source.

 

I don't think there's a big chance we will see auch changes.

As far as I understood in those wvw streams, Those changes would have to be made by the pve design team. But you see, some traits have 300 seconds cooldown in spvp and wvw, and didn't get reworked yet so I highly doubt bigger changes will happen in the near future

 

And if you need firebrand so hard, that you need a second one in each group, that would only make wvw worse