Talking about CC and possible designs.

[Shao.7236]

This is for discussing, not posting this as a request or complain, there's been little talk on the direction and even less to acknowledge other possible ways to manage CC in the game.

 

So I wanted to put this out there for the community to see, because while the direction we took is one of the most extreme timeline, I have always wondered about other ways they could be done to which I have a few.

 

* CC damage never does critical hits, this is probably the most commonly seen. It would have been a step in the right direction but doesn't change the fact that CC spam would be more rewarding

 

* On Stunbreak, immune to CC. This one strikes me as sane until we realize how some skills already do it and additionally that would indirectly buff a lot of already strong skills that are actually stunbreaks from the start. This let Stability keep it's value.

 

* CC effects cannot stack. Most notably daze or stuns, this is honestly way more harsh than the current situation we have here, being able to keep someone from doing anything is much more valuable than damage.

 

With those out of the way, I've had these changes in mind, not that I expect them to ever happen or again ask for. All I want is to hear the opinion of other for fun and have a perspective, so here it is.

 

Damage is based on what the CC does;

 

* Did you interrupt? Chance to do critical damage.

* Did you not interrupt? No critical damage allowed.

* Was the target immune/had stability? No damage at all.

 

I am not able to test any of it (obviously) but it seems like a good balance in between all of it and having other minds to peek into could be a good way to paint a picture. At least as a Rev main(mostly core)/part time Warrior, I can see this work pretty smoothly and that could add new layers of fun rather than losing all damage with no new particular goals around the function.

[Dadnir.5038]

How about first introducing sigils, runesets and traits that reduce incoming CC duration? I mean, we already have sigils, runeset and traits that increase CC duration why isn't there anything to reduce it? I'm pretty sure it would help a bit with some of the issues generated by CC curently.

 

Let's not forget that CC like float or sink are usually broken on taking damage in other game. (Thought, they also usually last longer)

 

NB.: I'd add food to the list of thing that reduce CC duration but there is no food in sPvP.

[Megametzler.5729]

I do not think there is anything fundamentally wrong with "CC with huge damage" oder "CC without damage".

 

The thing is: "CC with huge damage" needs a clear telegraph and such builds must not have many more additional must-dodge-skills. It is okay to bait dodges, it is necessary to count them and wait for blocks. This was what was wrong before february: There were so many of these skills, that at some point, a "CC with huge damage" could come in after spamming 3-4 big damage skills, wasting the enemies defensives too quickly. And then fights still only lasted less than 10 seconds regularly. No need to count CDs, no need to bait dodges, barely any stowing weapons anymore. Just spam your big damage skills.

 

The solution was to start reducing the sheer amount of big damage skills. But where to start? How to do something consistently? They decided to go with all the CC skills, which is fine in general but resulted in situations like the Reaper Scythe doint like 5 damage, which ist... well, kind of ridiculous. But okay. Now you have to decide whether you dodge the CC and hide from the burst skill or you dodge the upcoming burst skill if you have a stunbreak ready. You do not need two dodges anymore.

 

Now they also reduced the amount of stability and that lead to a major issue. Nerfing CCs needed a nerf in stab, right? Well, no. They should have added higher CDs on CCs too. Deleted some short DC dazes too, reduced AoE CC and all these things. Now there are still too many CCs for the amopunt of stab present which leads to CC chains while other people can still throw in damage.

 

My idea?

 

Bring back damage on CC or not, doesn't really matter. But reduce the amount of CCs overall. Why must shocking aura be shareable with 5 allies? Could it share one ICD? Why must Spellbreaker's FC daze *everyone* in a big radius? Why the constant dazes from Renegade? Why does Tornado put someone in a huge CC chain, even fear chains are debatable, while still being easier to handly with cleanses? Why is Scorchrazor on a 12s CD being an AoE knockdown?

 

There is a lot of cases where I feel the CC is simply too much and that is where they should start. Should've started with the February patch. Damage or not doesn't really matter to me then.

 

 

[Jekkt.6045]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> How about first introducing sigils, runesets and traits that reduce incoming CC duration? I mean, we already have sigils, runeset and traits that increase CC duration why isn't there anything to reduce it? I'm pretty sure it would help a bit with some of the issues generated by CC curently.

>

> Let's not forget that CC like float or sink are usually broken on taking damage in other game. (Thought, they also usually last longer)

>

> NB.: I'd add food to the list of thing that reduce CC duration but there is no food in sPvP.

 

rune of melandru reduces cc duration by 20%.

 

honestly, sigils should actually be offensive in nature, yet cleansing and energy are the most slotted and most defensive ones... i'm not a fan of another band aid fix sigil, especially one that could potentially be must pick.

 

sure, you could add sigils that reduce incoming cc duration, 2s stab on swap, or break stun on swap (which would be busted af) but the main problem if you add that is keeping track of everything.

 

you already have to count dodges, energy sigil, skill cooldowns and stunbreaks. add to that a sigil that could stunbreak or a random % duration reduction and it might be too much.

 

it would be better if they properly balanced cc skills. increase some cooldowns, reduce aoe radius or change some that are aoe to single target etc. maybe buff a small number of burst skills to make it more rewarding.

[ZDragon.3046]

adding skill modifiers built into base skills that deal more damage to cc'ed targets would be the better way to make up dps loss from taking damage away from cc skills. Especially on warrior who got hurt the most from the cc loss. Warriors hammer skill 2 is a prime example of what i mean.

 

They would have to be careful what skills got the damage increase against cc'ed targets though.

IT also still does not address some of the slower big cc skills that probably deserve their damage back or a total rework/buff though.

[apharma.3741]

FYI CC skills don't stack, someone hits you with a 3s stun then a 1/2s stun they actually just stunbroke you. I'm pretty sure this works for all hard CC so a thief headshot after a 2s stun actually is the thief throwing.

 

CC in my opinion needs 2 things doing to it:

1) if it's for interrupting it should be quick casting but last 1/4 to 1/2s. If it's for setting up burst it can be 2-3s but must have a decent cast and tell.

2) in general reduced the number of concurrent CC skills available to classes unless they specifically have traits around interrupt play style.

[Shao.7236]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> FYI CC skills don't stack, someone hits you with a 3s stun then a 1/2s stun they actually just stunbroke you. I'm pretty sure this works for all hard CC so a thief headshot after a 2s stun actually is the thief throwing.

 

My explaination is really poor, what I actually meant by stacking is that, CC's on someone already disabled should be ignored. Say if I got 4 seconds then someone hits for me another 3 when the timer of the first is still effective, even if it's 1 second. The 3 seconds are ignored.

 

Acknowledging that dazed and stuns would be apart of each other still to avoid wasted skills.

[otto.5684]

The balance between CC, breaks, stab and boom rip was okay before Feb. Now, not sure. If you need CC no one would die and sPvP will become more stagnant than it already is. There are skills that CC should also deal damage, like guardian, LB, deflection shot.

 

Personally I think CCs should never be associated with evades or be unblockable.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Jekkt.6045" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > How about first introducing sigils, runesets and traits that reduce incoming CC duration? I mean, we already have sigils, runeset and traits that increase CC duration why isn't there anything to reduce it? I'm pretty sure it would help a bit with some of the issues generated by CC curently.

> >

> > Let's not forget that CC like float or sink are usually broken on taking damage in other game. (Thought, they also usually last longer)

> >

> > NB.: I'd add food to the list of thing that reduce CC duration but there is no food in sPvP.

>

> rune of melandru reduces cc duration by 20%.

>

> honestly, sigils should actually be offensive in nature, yet cleansing and energy are the most slotted and most defensive ones... i'm not a fan of another band aid fix sigil, especially one that could potentially be must pick.

>

> sure, you could add sigils that reduce incoming cc duration, 2s stab on swap, or break stun on swap (which would be busted af) but the main problem if you add that is keeping track of everything.

>

> you already have to count dodges, energy sigil, skill cooldowns and stunbreaks. add to that a sigil that could stunbreak or a random % duration reduction and it might be too much.

>

> it would be better if they properly balanced cc skills. increase some cooldowns, reduce aoe radius or change some that are aoe to single target etc. maybe buff a small number of burst skills to make it more rewarding.

 

I don't see how it might be "too much". I'm just talking about reducing CC duration not removing them. For me CCs main purpose should be to tactically interupt a skill not make the opponent helpless for who-know-how-long in order to bash him without worry.

 

NB.: But yes, I missed _rune of melandru_ and mesmer's _moa signet_. I still believe that we need more of those effects instead of more of the effect that are already all over the professions (stab/stunbreak/block/aegis/dodge... etc.).

[Jekkt.6045]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Jekkt.6045" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > How about first introducing sigils, runesets and traits that reduce incoming CC duration? I mean, we already have sigils, runeset and traits that increase CC duration why isn't there anything to reduce it? I'm pretty sure it would help a bit with some of the issues generated by CC curently.

> > >

> > > Let's not forget that CC like float or sink are usually broken on taking damage in other game. (Thought, they also usually last longer)

> > >

> > > NB.: I'd add food to the list of thing that reduce CC duration but there is no food in sPvP.

> >

> > rune of melandru reduces cc duration by 20%.

> >

> > honestly, sigils should actually be offensive in nature, yet cleansing and energy are the most slotted and most defensive ones... i'm not a fan of another band aid fix sigil, especially one that could potentially be must pick.

> >

> > sure, you could add sigils that reduce incoming cc duration, 2s stab on swap, or break stun on swap (which would be busted af) but the main problem if you add that is keeping track of everything.

> >

> > you already have to count dodges, energy sigil, skill cooldowns and stunbreaks. add to that a sigil that could stunbreak or a random % duration reduction and it might be too much.

> >

> > it would be better if they properly balanced cc skills. increase some cooldowns, reduce aoe radius or change some that are aoe to single target etc. maybe buff a small number of burst skills to make it more rewarding.

>

> I don't see how it might be "too much". I'm just talking about reducing CC duration not removing them. For me CCs main purpose should be to tactically interupt a skill not make the opponent helpless for who-know-how-long in order to bash him without worry.

>

> NB.: But yes, I missed _rune of melandru_ and mesmer's _moa signet_. I still believe that we need more of those effects instead of more of the effect that are already all over the professions (stab/stunbreak/block/aegis/dodge... etc.).

 

there are multiple types of cc. there is interrupt, usually in the form of daze. setup cc like bull's charge and peel cc that is a mix between soft and hard cc that is situational.

 

all of them have their rightful spot in the game. dazes should obviously be used for rupts, low telegraph, low cast time skills.

 

the problem lies with hard cc which many lack a good enough tell or long enough casting time (0.75-1s is the right range here)or are simply too spamable.

 

what i mean by too much is, at one point you have to track so much stuff in a fight that it gets tedious. or in the case of % reduction, how are you going to know how much reduction your opponent is running? that's why i think it's a bad idea and just balancing cc skills is a better idea.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Jekkt.6045" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Jekkt.6045" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > How about first introducing sigils, runesets and traits that reduce incoming CC duration? I mean, we already have sigils, runeset and traits that increase CC duration why isn't there anything to reduce it? I'm pretty sure it would help a bit with some of the issues generated by CC curently.

> > > >

> > > > Let's not forget that CC like float or sink are usually broken on taking damage in other game. (Thought, they also usually last longer)

> > > >

> > > > NB.: I'd add food to the list of thing that reduce CC duration but there is no food in sPvP.

> > >

> > > rune of melandru reduces cc duration by 20%.

> > >

> > > honestly, sigils should actually be offensive in nature, yet cleansing and energy are the most slotted and most defensive ones... i'm not a fan of another band aid fix sigil, especially one that could potentially be must pick.

> > >

> > > sure, you could add sigils that reduce incoming cc duration, 2s stab on swap, or break stun on swap (which would be busted af) but the main problem if you add that is keeping track of everything.

> > >

> > > you already have to count dodges, energy sigil, skill cooldowns and stunbreaks. add to that a sigil that could stunbreak or a random % duration reduction and it might be too much.

> > >

> > > it would be better if they properly balanced cc skills. increase some cooldowns, reduce aoe radius or change some that are aoe to single target etc. maybe buff a small number of burst skills to make it more rewarding.

> >

> > I don't see how it might be "too much". I'm just talking about reducing CC duration not removing them. For me CCs main purpose should be to tactically interupt a skill not make the opponent helpless for who-know-how-long in order to bash him without worry.

> >

> > NB.: But yes, I missed _rune of melandru_ and mesmer's _moa signet_. I still believe that we need more of those effects instead of more of the effect that are already all over the professions (stab/stunbreak/block/aegis/dodge... etc.).

>

> there are multiple types of cc. there is interrupt, usually in the form of daze. setup cc like bull's charge and peel cc that is a mix between soft and hard cc that is situational.

>

> all of them have their rightful spot in the game. dazes should obviously be used for rupts, low telegraph, low cast time skills.

>

> the problem lies with hard cc which many lack a good enough tell or long enough casting time (0.75-1s is the right range here)or are simply too spamable.

>

> what i mean by too much is, at one point you have to track so much stuff in a fight that it gets tedious. or in the case of % reduction, how are you going to know how much reduction your opponent is running? that's why i think it's a bad idea and just balancing cc skills is a better idea.

 

Do you know how much condition duration reduction players are running when you play a condi build? Do you know how much toughness and damage reduction your opponent is going to have when you play a direct damage build? I don't really understand your points there. If a build need long duration CC to set up it's damage rotation, building to reduce the duration of incoming CC to counter it should be as valid an option as any other option.

 

I don't agree with your point on daze, you're generalizing things a bit to much. Fact is that on demand quick, low telegraph interupts are few in game while slow, high telegraph CC are the standard. It's to the point that player seldom use CC to actually interupt other and favor lock down build based on long duration CC. And when you happen to encounter a few lock down builds at once, the game become totally unfun to play.

 

I could careless wether CC deal damage or not, it's not what break the fun for me. Being stun/dazed/knockdown or under the effect of fear/taunt for 3-4s straigth despite having stunbreakers and stability, that is what steal the fun for me. And I don't think having the tools to reduce passively those 3-4s of helplessness to 1 second would be a bad thing for the game.

[CroTiger.7819]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> FYI CC skills don't stack, someone hits you with a 3s stun then a 1/2s stun they actually just stunbroke you. I'm pretty sure this works for all hard CC so a thief headshot after a 2s stun actually is the thief throwing.

>

> CC in my opinion needs 2 things doing to it:

> 1) if it's for interrupting it should be quick casting but last 1/4 to 1/2s. If it's for setting up burst it can be 2-3s but must have a decent cast and tell.

> 2) in general reduced the number of concurrent CC skills available to classes unless they specifically have traits around interrupt play style.

 

Finally someone see this. Almost 80% of cc ingame is hard cc made for stunlock and seting burst and 20% is soft cc made for interupts. I think it should be other way around and as you said interupt cc needs no big telegraph but should last very shotrly like 1/4 daze. Hard cc already have good tells in most occasions and it should stay without dmg. On the end give some small regular autoatack dmg to skills which just serve interupt purpose and make more traits like power block on mesmer to encourage ppl into more skillfull plays and baiting/fake casting which will add depth to game.

 

What you get is increased build diversity aswell since soft cc doesn t need stunbreaks you will be able to use some utilitys which rarely see use. Game should have 80% interupt based cc with short cast and duration and 20% of hard cc to lock and set spikes and everything is fine and skill is rewarded instead of spam.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> Damage is based on what the CC does;

>

> Did you interrupt? Chance to do critical damage.

> Did you not interrupt? No critical damage allowed.

> Was the target immune/had stability? No damage at all.

 

i like this part. all stun breaks should get 2 stacks of stab at 1 sec and i have held this belief for a while. cc spam is atrocious and there are few easy fixes, but this is imo one of them. as for damage overall, they need to reduce # 2 (or whichever is the main damage dealer skill on the weapon) cd's on all weapons and buff damage where applicable. nerfing auto damage was great, but nerfing # 2 damage AND cd was bad imo.

[Fueki.4753]

The over-abundance of CC could easily be fixed by simply giving players a defiance bar in pvp.

 

Then they could also add the damage back onto CC skills.