Dantheman.3589 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > @"memausz.7264" said: > > > > > > > > Ask yourselves this question - why is it that no other condis in the game and no other direct damage attacks in the game, even combined, match burn dmg? That's how I know all of you are wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yikes, bad take. Burns are generally much lower duration and have limited access. Guardian compensate for having no cover condi by having the strongest damaging one. Bring cleanse and stop wasting it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but condi classes in general have been choaked out of relevance and if you take one with plenty of cover condis you actually won’t do much damage. Ppl have tried stuff like scourge condi and condi rev and while they are decent as well as being a dh counter often times- they just don’t bring enough dps to have a place in the spot light anymore and are just a tanky dh with ultra low kill potential > > > > > > > > > > Choked out of relevance? What does that even mean, like people aren't taking much cleanse because they don't often expect to face condi builds? If that's the case, then tough. Bring cleanse and be smart with it. If you've got other classes applying cover condi then that's called synergy, and it's a synergy that Shoutbreaker and resistance both hard counter. > > > > > > > > no what it means is in the current balance burn damage is all you need to out dps other condi specs in almost every scenario > > > > Take condi scourge for example- it can put bleed, torment and burn in bulk, this is harder to cleanse yes but in it’s nerfed state if you actually land a good bit it’s gonna push maybe 1 of those stacks to tick for 1-2k per meanwhile a burn guard didn’t even have to hit a full soj to do that and if they do it’ll be actually relevant damage. > > > > In this case a condi scourge is much harder to cleanse and ill even corrupt boons but it’s not gonna out dps burn damage unless you tank it but then if they are tanking it burn burst will get the kill faster so win win. > > > > > > You're comparing the damage of a build with a ton more bulk and cover to keep damage ticking to one with almost no sustain that can lose every bit of damage output from a single cleanse. Of course it's going to out dps non burn builds, that's all you apply. If you stand still and never cleanse then burn guard will kill you much faster, but if you DO cleanse then it's the opposite. If burn guard did little damage then it would quite literally be the most useless condi build to ever exist, ever. That's the tradeoff of having a single condi that does any damage, it HAS to have it front loaded more than other condi builds because its damage is stopped by even minimal cleanse. If you bring low cleanse against a scourge then you're in for a lot of frustration that you're always taking damage after you expend all your resources. You can bring low cleanse against a burn guard and still survive because of how low the condi output is overall. No need to worry about cover condi or what condi to prioritize cleansing, just cleanse the burns before the stacks get high and after key skills, and don't stand in SoJ; someone pointed out that it's a PvE skill designed to use against stationary targets and now people in PvP are complaining about it. Says a lot about the status of the PvP community. > > > > I am not comparing a bulky build. If you’d bother to listen u would’ve check how pitiful the numbers for necro are in areas and that includes reapplication- burn guard is just better in maintaining condition pressure. > > > > I’d also like to point out that it’s baffling that you are set in pointing out one of the strongest builds in the game is actually under performing. > > Scourge is naturally more bulky than DH, and again burn is all you apply as guardian so of course reapplication is going to be higher. The inverse is that cleanse is disproportionately much more effective against burn DH because of the sheer lack of cover condi. It's not one of the strongest builds in the game, it's a gimmick build that people refuse to l2p against, and I don't often say l2p. It has very clear and exploitable counters, but kitten we have people complaining about SoJ so people aren't actually trying to play around it, they're running in head first and getting upset that they die. Bring cleanse, use it at the right times, bring range pressure. It has counters and also counters a lot of stuff hence why its actually usable. If it was nothing but counter able ppl would’ve l2p along time ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > > @"memausz.7264" said: > > > > > > > > > Ask yourselves this question - why is it that no other condis in the game and no other direct damage attacks in the game, even combined, match burn dmg? That's how I know all of you are wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yikes, bad take. Burns are generally much lower duration and have limited access. Guardian compensate for having no cover condi by having the strongest damaging one. Bring cleanse and stop wasting it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but condi classes in general have been choaked out of relevance and if you take one with plenty of cover condis you actually won’t do much damage. Ppl have tried stuff like scourge condi and condi rev and while they are decent as well as being a dh counter often times- they just don’t bring enough dps to have a place in the spot light anymore and are just a tanky dh with ultra low kill potential > > > > > > > > > > > > Choked out of relevance? What does that even mean, like people aren't taking much cleanse because they don't often expect to face condi builds? If that's the case, then tough. Bring cleanse and be smart with it. If you've got other classes applying cover condi then that's called synergy, and it's a synergy that Shoutbreaker and resistance both hard counter. > > > > > > > > > > no what it means is in the current balance burn damage is all you need to out dps other condi specs in almost every scenario > > > > > Take condi scourge for example- it can put bleed, torment and burn in bulk, this is harder to cleanse yes but in it’s nerfed state if you actually land a good bit it’s gonna push maybe 1 of those stacks to tick for 1-2k per meanwhile a burn guard didn’t even have to hit a full soj to do that and if they do it’ll be actually relevant damage. > > > > > In this case a condi scourge is much harder to cleanse and ill even corrupt boons but it’s not gonna out dps burn damage unless you tank it but then if they are tanking it burn burst will get the kill faster so win win. > > > > > > > > You're comparing the damage of a build with a ton more bulk and cover to keep damage ticking to one with almost no sustain that can lose every bit of damage output from a single cleanse. Of course it's going to out dps non burn builds, that's all you apply. If you stand still and never cleanse then burn guard will kill you much faster, but if you DO cleanse then it's the opposite. If burn guard did little damage then it would quite literally be the most useless condi build to ever exist, ever. That's the tradeoff of having a single condi that does any damage, it HAS to have it front loaded more than other condi builds because its damage is stopped by even minimal cleanse. If you bring low cleanse against a scourge then you're in for a lot of frustration that you're always taking damage after you expend all your resources. You can bring low cleanse against a burn guard and still survive because of how low the condi output is overall. No need to worry about cover condi or what condi to prioritize cleansing, just cleanse the burns before the stacks get high and after key skills, and don't stand in SoJ; someone pointed out that it's a PvE skill designed to use against stationary targets and now people in PvP are complaining about it. Says a lot about the status of the PvP community. > > > > > > I am not comparing a bulky build. If you’d bother to listen u would’ve check how pitiful the numbers for necro are in areas and that includes reapplication- burn guard is just better in maintaining condition pressure. > > > > > > I’d also like to point out that it’s baffling that you are set in pointing out one of the strongest builds in the game is actually under performing. > > > > Scourge is naturally more bulky than DH, and again burn is all you apply as guardian so of course reapplication is going to be higher. The inverse is that cleanse is disproportionately much more effective against burn DH because of the sheer lack of cover condi. It's not one of the strongest builds in the game, it's a gimmick build that people refuse to l2p against, and I don't often say l2p. It has very clear and exploitable counters, but kitten we have people complaining about SoJ so people aren't actually trying to play around it, they're running in head first and getting upset that they die. Bring cleanse, use it at the right times, bring range pressure. > > It has counters and also counters a lot of stuff hence why its actually usable. If it was nothing but counter able ppl would’ve l2p along time ago And if wanna tell me o scourge is less counterable than omg lol I see scourge on other when I’m duoing with a dps then it’s food but then again so is dh but than again I’m actually good. Solo q to plat3 is ez and it’s omg ez on dh tell me otherwise than lol u ain’t playing dh well. 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TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 Put this burn DH build you are talking about together and let me know a good time to meet you in game, we will do a custom match. I will bring a power melee DH (so I am FORCED to play on your traps), we will do a few fights, not saying I will win, I just want to see this super OP, 30k tick, unkillable DH build so I can use it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"memausz.7264" said: > > > > > > > > > > Ask yourselves this question - why is it that no other condis in the game and no other direct damage attacks in the game, even combined, match burn dmg? That's how I know all of you are wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yikes, bad take. Burns are generally much lower duration and have limited access. Guardian compensate for having no cover condi by having the strongest damaging one. Bring cleanse and stop wasting it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah but condi classes in general have been choaked out of relevance and if you take one with plenty of cover condis you actually won’t do much damage. Ppl have tried stuff like scourge condi and condi rev and while they are decent as well as being a dh counter often times- they just don’t bring enough dps to have a place in the spot light anymore and are just a tanky dh with ultra low kill potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Choked out of relevance? What does that even mean, like people aren't taking much cleanse because they don't often expect to face condi builds? If that's the case, then tough. Bring cleanse and be smart with it. If you've got other classes applying cover condi then that's called synergy, and it's a synergy that Shoutbreaker and resistance both hard counter. > > > > > > > > > > > > no what it means is in the current balance burn damage is all you need to out dps other condi specs in almost every scenario > > > > > > Take condi scourge for example- it can put bleed, torment and burn in bulk, this is harder to cleanse yes but in it’s nerfed state if you actually land a good bit it’s gonna push maybe 1 of those stacks to tick for 1-2k per meanwhile a burn guard didn’t even have to hit a full soj to do that and if they do it’ll be actually relevant damage. > > > > > > In this case a condi scourge is much harder to cleanse and ill even corrupt boons but it’s not gonna out dps burn damage unless you tank it but then if they are tanking it burn burst will get the kill faster so win win. > > > > > > > > > > You're comparing the damage of a build with a ton more bulk and cover to keep damage ticking to one with almost no sustain that can lose every bit of damage output from a single cleanse. Of course it's going to out dps non burn builds, that's all you apply. If you stand still and never cleanse then burn guard will kill you much faster, but if you DO cleanse then it's the opposite. If burn guard did little damage then it would quite literally be the most useless condi build to ever exist, ever. That's the tradeoff of having a single condi that does any damage, it HAS to have it front loaded more than other condi builds because its damage is stopped by even minimal cleanse. If you bring low cleanse against a scourge then you're in for a lot of frustration that you're always taking damage after you expend all your resources. You can bring low cleanse against a burn guard and still survive because of how low the condi output is overall. No need to worry about cover condi or what condi to prioritize cleansing, just cleanse the burns before the stacks get high and after key skills, and don't stand in SoJ; someone pointed out that it's a PvE skill designed to use against stationary targets and now people in PvP are complaining about it. Says a lot about the status of the PvP community. > > > > > > > > I am not comparing a bulky build. If you’d bother to listen u would’ve check how pitiful the numbers for necro are in areas and that includes reapplication- burn guard is just better in maintaining condition pressure. > > > > > > > > I’d also like to point out that it’s baffling that you are set in pointing out one of the strongest builds in the game is actually under performing. > > > > > > Scourge is naturally more bulky than DH, and again burn is all you apply as guardian so of course reapplication is going to be higher. The inverse is that cleanse is disproportionately much more effective against burn DH because of the sheer lack of cover condi. It's not one of the strongest builds in the game, it's a gimmick build that people refuse to l2p against, and I don't often say l2p. It has very clear and exploitable counters, but kitten we have people complaining about SoJ so people aren't actually trying to play around it, they're running in head first and getting upset that they die. Bring cleanse, use it at the right times, bring range pressure. > > > > It has counters and also counters a lot of stuff hence why its actually usable. If it was nothing but counter able ppl would’ve l2p along time ago > > And if wanna tell me o scourge is less counterable than omg lol I see scourge on other when I’m duoing with a dps then it’s food but then again so is dh but than again I’m actually good. Solo q to plat3 is ez and it’s omg ez on dh tell me otherwise than lol u ain’t playing dh well. I think its the PVE easy point and click ranged cleave SoJ, downstate doesn't really exists as long as it is 4 stacks on low cd. Most of the PoF mechanical reworks didn't get much PVP attention really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 > @"Animism.7530" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > I wasn't expecting Burn guard to be the new hot topic. It's such an easy build to outplay. Even if they land all 15 of their "overpowered" burns on you, you can still survive with a single well timed cleanse. > > > > Its ranged pressure is hot garbage. I've literally killed burn guards by pressing W and spamming mortars. It's very cooldown reliant. Beating burn guard is just a matter of learning to read the enemy's skills and properly time your cleanse. > > > > If anything I'd call it a healthy build because learning to beat it comes naturally by grasping basic fundamentals of PvP. > > Agreed. > This post should be more about why Guardian only has a single, easily negatable tactic for pvp... Spamming burns through a variety of sources. > > It's strong when people don't cleanse - and almost utterly useless when people do cleanse. > Guardian needs a buff in some form, not a nerf. Imo that's what should be looked at, why so many players are playing burn builds rather than play what classes offers mostly rather than stacks burn skils... Still against classes with alot of cleanses its mostly useless, its just a woosh burn gimmick, still IMO its burn overperfoming overall in the game, and it should be looked at cause saying that class works cause has a burn gimmick spam is a bit idiotic at minimal while the class LACKS largelly in many other aspects. Burn should be doing smaller ticks but faster rather a heavy burn nuke tick wich is possible to reach under certain gimicks when they land either way.. Burn needs QoL look while classes that relly mostly on spam condi burn builds should be looked at they m8 lack in other aspects. If anywant want to play burn builds, just keep spaming other condis to cover ur burn stacks, same as rev torment bomb then fear target to selfdeath, stila bit of teamplay could save both situations or have more chance to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memausz.7264 Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > @"memausz.7264" said: > > Ask yourselves this question - why is it that no other condis in the game and no other direct damage attacks in the game, even combined, match burn dmg? That's how I know all of you are wrong. > > Yikes, bad take. Burns are generally much lower duration and have limited access. Guardian compensate for having no cover condi by having the strongest damaging one. Bring cleanse and stop wasting it. Cleanse does not matter if you get spiked by condi - which, btw, has a +50% duration increase with Smoldering Sigil and Baelfire or Balthazaar Runes. You can't cleanse fast enough. And the chances of being tether pulled are quite high. It does so much damage that if you have two mediocre burn DHs in a game, one can sit at mid, one can sit at home and the rest of the team will just rotate between them and unless the enemy team has core necros, there's not much you can do. One counter build isn't very balanced at all. You have to look at damage output, mobility, time-to-kill, sustain, kiting potential, and so on when looking at this and when you do, you realize that asking players to switch their professions to such a limited set of builds to counter one stupid snapping turtle of a build that just sits on node all game is a terrible way of going about balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memausz.7264 Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 Also, it's unconscionable for any player to Solo a lord in 10 seconds under any circumstances. And yet, burn guards can do *exactly* that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mesis.2951 Posted December 19, 2020 Share Posted December 19, 2020 I run a build with 13 condi cleanses and and 30% dmg reduction from condis and its still ridicoulous that a guard can get 5k+ burn ticks in few seconds on you that you can not remove since other condtions like poison, imob, vulnerability etc. sometimes take priority Naturally only the high skill guards can pull it off (top 250 players) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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