Revamp aquatic combat

[Tseison.4659]

Well when EoD arrives and if there’s going to be locations that require underwater combat then they need to make more skills (utilities & elites) usable underwater. Additionally, if they don’t even want to bother improving underwater combat then I suggest they move underwater weapons onto land with some skills tweaked.

[Foxy.5319]

There are many ways to defeat the deep sea dragon without even setting foot in the water. For example, when fighting the dragon on the lake, you could jump from floe to floe, or from an airship, or floating platforms. Whatever arenanet comes up with it will most likely be along those lines. And the lore behind it could be that it is deadly to swim in the same water where the deep sea dragon is.

[Oxstar.7643]

Defeating a deep sea dragon without actualy going into the water yourself sounds incrediby blind thematically, and it would also ignore a larger portion of the game that could only stand to gain from being improved.

[Aplethoraof.2643]

> @"yoni.7015" said:

> > @"Zoid.2568" said:

> > > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > > @"Zoid.2568" said:

> > > > > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > > > No thanks, underwater combat is no fun.

> > > >

> > > > They can make it fun with a revamp.

> > > No, they can’t and they don’t have to. Just leave it like it is.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > So leave ít boring when ít can be fixed??

>

> It will stay boring and the majority of players don’t like underwater content. So why waste resources on something only a very small minority enjoys?

>

 

That doesn't make any sense. By this logic, no game needs any new content because it is fun and thus will always stay fun.

 

The idea behind a revamp is:

Problem: This content isn't fun for a lot of people

Solution: Make is fun for a lot of people.

 

----

Just making all skills work underwater would be a huge boon.

Another good idea would be to make underwater weapons work above water. And make all above-water weapons work underwater.

 

Once that is done, then other things can potentially be added. That alone would be less effort (comparatively) for HUGE gains.

 

IMO, before underwater content is even touched - that needs to be done anyway.

[Oxstar.7643]

> @"Aplethoraof.2643" said:

> > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > @"Zoid.2568" said:

> > > > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > > > @"Zoid.2568" said:

> > > > > > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > > > > No thanks, underwater combat is no fun.

> > > > >

> > > > > They can make it fun with a revamp.

> > > > No, they can’t and they don’t have to. Just leave it like it is.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > So leave ít boring when ít can be fixed??

> >

> > It will stay boring and the majority of players don’t like underwater content. So why waste resources on something only a very small minority enjoys?

> >

>

> That doesn't make any sense. By this logic, no game needs any new content because it is fun and thus will always stay fun.

>

> The idea behind a revamp is:

> Problem: This content isn't fun for a lot of people

> Solution: Make is fun for a lot of people.

>

> ----

> Just making all skills work underwater would be a huge boon.

> Another good idea would be to make underwater weapons work above water. And make all above-water weapons work underwater.

>

> Once that is done, then other things can potentially be added. That alone would be less effort (comparatively) for HUGE gains.

>

> IMO, before underwater content is even touched - that needs to be done anyway.

 

What you are suggesting would kill the identity of underwater combat. Big NO on that. If the pain point is that you can't just ignore weapons made spcifically for nautical use in favor of using the same two weapons always then I would say that is the real problem - not the game, YOU.

That said, I do agree they should make all skills usable undeerwater, although this would require a lot of works to create variants that works underwater.

For instance, bombs becomes charges, turrets are held in place with a balloon, the flesh golem becomes a shark, and so forth. A fait amount of work both visually and with the code. And if every weapon worked underwater you'd need new animations, that's more work. If they then also wanted to give every weapon underwater skills then we are talking HUNDREDS of new skills. That is a crazy amount of work. All to downgrade water combat to essentially land combat but with omni-directional movement. That would, imo, make it WORSE.

[Aplethoraof.2643]

"The identity of underwater combat" is one of its fundamental flaws. That is why it needs an "overhaul". Not a "tweak".

[Oxstar.7643]

And what you are suggesting would not make it its own thing with good executiuon and unique facets. It would make it watered down (pun intended) land combat.

No thanks. I agree there is a lot of room for improvement, but not what you are suggesting.

[Randulf.7614]

I enjoy underwater stuff, so more emphasis/tweaks/improvemnts are welcomed by me

[Aplethoraof.2643]

> @"Oxstar.7643" said:

> And what you are suggesting would not make it its own thing with good executiuon and unique facets. It would make it watered down (pun intended) land combat.

> No thanks. I agree there is a lot of room for improvement, but not what you are suggesting.

 

Bear it mind, it need not be the same. Scepter doesn't have to have the same skills on land and underwater. And spear need not have the same skills underwater and on land.

 

In a similar respect to how some utilities are different, I suppose.

 

But they need to be homogenized first, before they can be separated into proper dual modes. That is what I am saying. So add in sword, then say "how do we tweak these for underwater?".

 

Everyone gets access to the full suite of content, but it doesn't necessarily have to end up being 1:1.

 

I vision it being a slow process. First, homogenize everything. Make it clear up-front that there WILL be changes over time. Then make those changes over-time, in response to one's own vision and player feedback.

 

It'd be a bit of a large undertaking for Anet, but I think it would be worth it in the end. Underwater sPvP maps would certainly be a blast.

 

Does that make more sense? I'm not saying that I want underwater and land combat to be clones in terms of the exact same skills in the end. But I think that homogenization is the FIRST step towards changing things for the better.

 

First make all content available on both modes. Then change the content to better fit each mode.

[Oxstar.7643]

I'd rather they make unique things for the skills currently NOT usable underwater.

For instance, flamthrower could use phosphor, or superheated water. And Kalla's warband is just disabled entirely under water. A biy weird imo.

Get to work on bringing the entire utility skillset into the water first, and make it its own thing. THEN start defining underwater combat further.

[Chyanne Waters.8719]

We are going to Cantha on the way is the water elder dragon. I personally have been getting ready for that fight. Ascended masks, speed infusions, ascended weapons, and whatever is needed. I know I won't be able to solo it, but I hope I will go with enough damage along with others.

[Aplethoraof.2643]

> @"Oxstar.7643" said:

> I'd rather they make unique things for the skills currently NOT usable underwater.

> For instance, flamthrower could use phosphor, or superheated water. And Kalla's warband is just disabled entirely under water. A biy weird imo.

> Get to work on bringing the entire utility skillset into the water first, and make it its own thing. THEN start defining underwater combat further.

 

I made some edits after you posted, sorry.

 

But I think we are on the same page here, in light of this elaboration?

[Oxstar.7643]

> @"Aplethoraof.2643" said:

> > @"Oxstar.7643" said:

> > I'd rather they make unique things for the skills currently NOT usable underwater.

> > For instance, flamthrower could use phosphor, or superheated water. And Kalla's warband is just disabled entirely under water. A biy weird imo.

> > Get to work on bringing the entire utility skillset into the water first, and make it its own thing. THEN start defining underwater combat further.

>

> I made some edits after you posted, sorry.

>

> But I think we are on the same page here, in light of this elaboration?

 

I think so. I maintain water combat needs to have things that sets it apart from land combat. That said, there can absolutely be variants and differences that smoothly transitions from land to water. Water skills for every weapon tho, hundreds of new skills are probably much too high of a goal.

[Cleopatra.4068]

> @"yoni.7015" said:

> No thanks, underwater combat is no fun. Most player hate it so why should they waste resources on it?

 

How do you know most players hate underwater combat? I like underwater combat. Just because vocal people hate underwater combat doesn’t mean most players hate it.

[Astyrah.4015]

> @"Cleopatra.4068" said:

> How do you know most players hate underwater combat? I like underwater combat. Just because vocal people hate underwater combat doesn’t mean most players hate it.

 

and if underwater combat was _that_ bad that **most** (as in, overwhelming majority) people hated it, there would probably be mass protests in reddit and this forum and/or elsewhere to remove it or revamp it asap.

 

as it stands i believe the opinion is divided between people who hate it, those who are fine/"meh" with it and think it could improve, and those who like it as it is currently.

 

i don't think any of those opinions are in the majority/most

[Farohna.6247]

I don't think it's so much at matter of absolute hatred as a matter of fine I'll accept my fate and do the underwater stuff since I have to. Doesn't mean they necessarily want more of it. I'm sure with Cantha, and as mentioned the deep sea dragon, we will see more of it. Hopefully some refining of some skills, underwater weapons are fine. Wouldn't mind an underwater mount race for kicks.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Oxstar.7643" said:

> What you are suggesting would kill the identity of underwater combat. Big NO on that. If the pain point is that you can't just ignore weapons made spcifically for nautical use in favor of using the same two weapons always then I would say that is the real problem - not the game, YOU.

No, that actually is one of the huge issues with underwater combat now. Basically, only an extremely limited number of builds have any synergy with underwater weapons - and even less with good synergy with underwater and overland weapon set _at the same time) (remember, that while your skills change when you go underwater, your build and gear - barring weapons - doesn't). That means, if you want to create a character that can move between land and underwater, your choices will be heavily limited (i.e. good luck playing heal druid underwater that spear and harpoon gun will be soo useful for that build... not).

Remember, that builds are heavily tied to weapons used - and so far we have only 3 underwater weapons, of which any class can use at most 2 - with some classes like ele having no choice whatsoever. Also, notice that often you can't really use both weapons you have access to with your build, because both often cover completely different styles (power and condi, melee and ranged). Or, sometimes, are something even worse - a hybrid weapon that is not good at anything.

 

Significant lack of weapon choices for underwater combat is one of the things that definitely need to be addressed if we'd ever think about transitioning underwater content from beta testing stage to a fully finished product.

[Oxstar.7643]

So you want them to add HUNDREDS of new skills? I'd rather they start with the utilities that can't be used, give it more of its own identity, and THEN think about more weapons.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Oxstar.7643" said:

> So you want them to add HUNDREDS of new skills? I'd rather they start with the utilities that can't be used, give it more of its own identity, and THEN think about more weapons.

Well, obviously currently disabled utilities would need to be made useable as well. But if you want to compare things like that, then - sure, fixing utilities is probably easier and requires less work. It also has far less impact and is unlikely to change the current situation in any significant way. Compared to stuff like weapons it is a minor issue.

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > @"Zoid.2568" said:

> > > > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > > > @"Zoid.2568" said:

> > > > > > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > > > > No thanks, underwater combat is no fun.

> > > > >

> > > > > They can make it fun with a revamp.

> > > > No, they can’t and they don’t have to. Just leave it like it is.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > So leave ít boring when ít can be fixed??

> >

> > It will stay boring and the majority of players don’t like underwater content. So why waste resources on something only a very small minority enjoys?

> >

>

> Fair enough, then lets get rid of Raids, PvP, WvW, Fractals and Strike missions then because only a minority of players enjoy those as well.

> 100% focus from here on out only on PvE story..

> Lets also get rid of the most underused/underpowered classes as well and stop making new specs for them.. since that's a waste of resources as well.

 

...but he didn't say "remove underwater combat", right? How is this even remotely valid comparison when you're suddenly talking about removing existing content?

Now if you want to talk about raids, pvp, wvw, fractals and strike missions in context of "leaving it how it is" then... that's mostly what is actually happening.

 

And I agree with yoni, I don't like underwater combat and don't want much/anything to do with it. Not even mentioning "underwater only especs" or mass underwater skill rework, while the regular skills AND traits still need the revamp.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > > @"Zoid.2568" said:

> > > > > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > > > > @"Zoid.2568" said:

> > > > > > > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > > > > > No thanks, underwater combat is no fun.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They can make it fun with a revamp.

> > > > > No, they can’t and they don’t have to. Just leave it like it is.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > So leave ít boring when ít can be fixed??

> > >

> > > It will stay boring and the majority of players don’t like underwater content. So why waste resources on something only a very small minority enjoys?

> > >

> >

> > Fair enough, then lets get rid of Raids, PvP, WvW, Fractals and Strike missions then because only a minority of players enjoy those as well.

> > 100% focus from here on out only on PvE story..

> > Lets also get rid of the most underused/underpowered classes as well and stop making new specs for them.. since that's a waste of resources as well.

>

> ...but he didn't say "remove underwater combat", right? How is this even remotely valid comparison when you're suddenly talking about removing existing content?

> Now if you want to talk about raids, pvp, wvw, fractals and strike missions in context of "leaving it how it is" then... that's mostly what is actually happening.

>

> And I agree with yoni, I don't like underwater combat and don't want much/anything to do with it. Not even mentioning "underwater only especs" or mass underwater skill rework, while the regular skills AND traits still need the revamp.

 

Already explained it in my last post in reference to what Yoni said was a "waste of resources"

 

It's fine if you don't like underwater content, though if you don't mind answering, why don't you like it?

Do you just dislike the concept of it? or do you just not find it fun because of the lack of build diversity and skills and weapons you can use there?.. too restrictive etc.

 

[Oxstar.7643]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Oxstar.7643" said:

> > So you want them to add HUNDREDS of new skills? I'd rather they start with the utilities that can't be used, give it more of its own identity, and THEN think about more weapons.

> Well, obviously currently disabled utilities would need to be made useable as well. But if you want to compare things like that, then - sure, fixing utilities is probably easier and requires less work. It also has far less impact and is unlikely to change the current situation in any significant way. Compared to stuff like weapons it is a minor issue.

>

 

Regardless, the fact of the matter is that if every weapon was available underwater and worked the same way then it would not do anything to giver underwater combat its own identity. That is not the way to improving it. If they WERE to add every weapon then they would need to function differently.

Also, not everyone dislikes it either. That the "majority" does is something I've seen trumpeted around a lot, but if you really want people to pitch in then you should probably start a poll.

 

As it currently stands, it's a different experience from land. That should not be lost. But improved.

[Cuks.8241]

I like underwater combat, like that it uses different weapons with different skills and how it functions in 3D. I wouldn't mind more underwater areas and some refreshment of skills. A separate set of traits for underwater would be nice.

I am disappointed how underwater areas in LS maps are so bland compared to the core game and expansions. There is so much potential for underwater areas with unlimited 3D movement.

[Hannelore.8153]

I wouldn't rely too much on the DSD bringing revamped underwater combat.

 

Its certainly possible but alot of players are afraid the devs will take the same cheap route other games have, where the "deep sea" maps are just land maps with an ocean as the skybox, so you're "underwater" in a shielded city or something.

 

We won't know until it hits, though.

[Ayakaru.6583]

They should remove all underwater traits from the main lines. Make it a separate trait line for uw traits.

 

Remove all skills from underwater (yes, i know that's a big shock), and create 2 uw healing skills, 3-6 class skills, and 2 elite skills. They can use pre-existing skills as a foundation, but the point is that from the ground up they're designed with underwater synergy in mind.

 

Then; _add an underwater exclusive legend to the revenant_