Why can mesmers insta-down people?

[Aeolus.3615]

(nevermind) and cant delete.

[Oozo.7856]

LOL, did someone actually say Mesmer is high risk? :P

[SnowHawk.3615]

> @"Kirin.7306" said:

> > @"SnowHawk.3615" said:

> > Umm.. there is a nice mechanic called "DODGE!"

> > Or block with shield? or aegis? or invul? Power mesmers can die just as fast as they kill you. It's a high risk high reward build and has been around for a few years now.

> >

> > Well they could do to mesmer what they did to ele and make them only tank/healers and power is pretty much suicide unless youre 100% ranged or extremely fast like idk a fresh air?

> > You do know fresh air ele can kill just as fast or a high precision thief? Idk i play power mes and its very fun because condi mes is cheap. Oh yea and holosmith should be here as well

>

> mesmer have leet defensives+ offensives though. still if you want to believe its balanced go ahead.

 

No i dont think it's balanced at all never said it was. was just comparing it to others! :D

[mulzi.8273]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Zero.3871" said:

> > Welcome to mesmer wars xD. Everyone already knew that mesmer was most OP class before the patch and the "Balance" patch buffed them. Chrono alacrity have 50% cd reduce. chronos now have so short CDs on invuls, blocks while spiking every 5 sec with 20k+. 1 chrono alraedy have perma uptime for alacrity, 2 have it easier and are unkillable because of all that stunns, bombs, invuls, mobility (to sum up: EVERYTHING). mirages still unkillable because of stunbreak + invul on every dodge while bombing you out of life.

> >

> > ANET STOP THIS CLASS. THIS GAME IS COMPLETELY kitten with that OP class!

> >

> > i already tried spvp after years to flee from that overload of mesmers in wvw but in spvp 2/5 People playing mesm too. just lol.

> >

> > @k then, your suggestions dont help to not dying, because i can use rise + protection + infuing Terror and still get one shotted. and kitten, unholy sanctuary let me alive with 1 lifepoint and shroud( shroud that decay with 1k+ life per second. and reapers cannot heal up in shroud back to full. not even back to 50%. if shroud is gone you are dead. thats not a solution, its BS.

> And a single scourge bombed me in an instant for 7k hp a second yesterday.

>

> And a daredevil knocked 12k hp off less than a second from 1200 range while stunning me and instantly being back at 1200+ range.

>

> And a spellbreaker killed me while invoulnerable.

>

> And a weaver bombed 15k hp in less than a second.

>

> And a herald knocks 6k hp off each autoattack at 1200 range.

>

> And even if any of these do get a bomb in a firebrand can heal up from 0 to 100 in an instant.

>

> Etc and so on.

>

> Its not mesmers wars.

>

> Welcome to GW2. It is what it is. It doesnt matter what your class is, any time you complain about enemy classes look at your kitten own class first.

 

Well, to be fair, the ele burst is so telegraphed you can easily dodge it if your paying attention. The warrior cheese can be dodge/kited/stealth/etc while he's invun. Herald is really only an issue in zergs, but reflect is your friend here, not to mention dodging behind something/someone else (auto doesnt pierce). Daredevil will implode if they make a tiny mistake. Can't commit on FB, I havent seen a roaming one in ages. Scourge is weak if you have condi clear (i handle them quite well on my reaper nowadays after much practice and swearing).

 

My point is, that all these cheese mechanics are counterable in some fashion _except_ for mesmer. The fact that they can do this cheese tactic instantly from stealth is what people are complaining about mostly. Only defense is to random 'guess' dodge when you think the shot is coming. That and the fact that once the either hit/miss their cheese, they easily kite with blocks/evades/stealth/clones until its back off cooldown.

 

I've never seen a class in any game that had stealth & blocks & clones & evades & teleports ports & 1-shot damage. They should be sacrificing some of those 'options' to trait the others. It is BLATANTLY obvious, given past Anet videos/discussions, that Karl refuses to balance this class, as this class is his baby that he plays/uses for testing.

[shagwell.1349]

I wish they would tone down power mesmer/mirage dps by 25% straight or take away either their stealth or the option to port around almost endless. That's almost the same stupid mechanic which has almost no risk that we know from thieves and sorry, but that sucks balls.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

> @"offence.4726" said:

> Why is Mesmer still not balanced and keeps on being broken ? Anet ?

 

well, when you see some Anet guys running in wvw, make sure to login with your mesmer and just keep 1 shot them everytime.

Tada...next balance patch, power mesmer nerfed.

and any mesmer that cries, send em halloween toilet paper :)

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

I am curious, has ArenaNet ever mentioned any big plans to completely overhaul skills per game mode? Really taking a look at how the classes interact in PvE versus PvP/WvW and really taking a look at how to fix skills for a game mode and not just fix skills overall/generally? I always feel that games that have the PvE element, can balance well for PvE encounters, bosses, raids etc. But when looking at how classes interact with one another and fight each other is a whole different story. If anyone has any links to information they have provided about overhauling skills per game mode, I would be interested in reading it!

[SweetPotato.7456]

theres a youtube video that teaches you how to spec your mesmer for this one shot insta death build. yes it exist.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"shagwell.1349" said:

> I wish they would tone down power mesmer/mirage dps by 25% straight or take away either their stealth or the option to port around almost endless. That's almost the same stupid mechanic which has almost no risk that we know from thieves and sorry, but that sucks balls.

Then you are also in favor of toning down warrior, engie, rev, ele, ranger, guard, necro and thief dps by 25% straight off, or alternativly take away their invoulns? Did I miss any class capable of speccing OP? I dont think so. It would go a good way to reduce powercreep, yes.

 

I would still like Anet to post the stats on what the average class composition is during 1h of primetime play. I'm guessing mesmer lands in the low single digit, compared to scourge and fb probably being 70%+

[shagwell.1349]

None of those you mentioned combine stealth, dps, invul and mobility. All those you mentioned lack in at least one the options.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Corvus.2831" said:

> No one should be required to equip a specific ability to not be oneshot. You proven our point.

 

Actually, if you are being "one shotted" you are either running a bad build or playing the build you are running badly. If you are not capable of not being killed by a single button press because of a skill issue, it is perfectly reasonable to utilize a skill, trait, or ability to defend yourself. Remember, your ability to die has as much to do with your skill level and build as it does with your opponents.

 

 

[apharma.3741]

While I do think mesmers ability to spike is a bit too high for all the survivability given from the mirage spec the actual burst hasn't really changed too much in damage except being able to double shatter with duel, illu and mirage but that comes at a reduction in damage from not having dom.

 

On the other hand lets say you "reduce mesmer dps by 25%" as someone mentioned above, what will happen? Mesmer can't burst past the healing being put out by most classes and it now lacks the sustained damage to do much of anything. Put simply you would effectively delete it from the game.

 

The solution we need is a reduction in damage *of all classes* as well as nerfing the flat healing and upping the cool downs of a lot of defences a bit too, not a huge amount just 5-10s. We have had the same base health pools since launch but damage has just been escalating with the expansions (just look at PvE dps figure trends) yet no increase to base health at all to help with this, not that I think that's what is needed. If you think mirage is imba but think FB, Scourge, SB, Rev, Holo, Druid and Thief are fine then you're only showing your bias, doubly so all those saying FB is fine.

[Xenash.1245]

I have no strong feelings one way or the other when it comes to Mesmers and balance at this current time.

 

I will say though that people should avoid saying thing like "learn to play" because it's not going to help strengthen the point you're trying to make in the slightest. Remember when ranger pets would stick to people like glue during the beta and destroy people? It would kinda be rude of me to say "just learn to play better" back then.

 

So yeah just remember to use facts/logic/whatever to back up your points, don't use pointless phrases or else this is just going to turn into a thread of endless complaining on both ends.

[Eramonster.2718]

> @"coglin.1496" said:

> > @"Corvus.2831" said:

> > No one should be required to equip a specific ability to not be oneshot. You proven our point.

>

> Actually, if you are being "one shotted" you are either running a bad build or playing the build you are running badly. If you are not capable of not being killed by a single button press because of a skill issue, it is perfectly reasonable to utilize a skill, trait, or ability to defend yourself. Remember, your ability to die has as much to do with your skill level and build as it does with your opponents.

>

 

Some class have no or close to none counter plays. When players say one shot, both party will be glass or very close to one. You can be tankie but its just a matter if time with mirage mechanics (Jaunt to gap close or disengage. their passive reflects and blurred frenzy). Mirage will need to time "The Prestige" explosion which grant them stealth beforehand as part of the one shot combo to be effective. This will make the opponent unaware or unable to take action which further amplifies the dmg. They can disengage or continue to press on with GS 5-4-3 mind stab combo immediately/afterwards while waiting for the cd resets.

[coglin.1496]

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> Some class have no or close to none counter plays.

 

Link me the build, I will be happy to teach you at least one counterplay per build.

 

>When players say one shot, both party will be glass or very close to one.

 

Do not run a glassy build, then cry if you die quickly. If you cannot handle surviving, being glassy, then you are not good enough to run a glassy build.

 

>You can be tankie but its just a matter if time with mirage mechanics (Jaunt to gap close or disengage. their passive reflects and blurred frenzy). Mirage will need to time "The Prestige" explosion which grant them stealth beforehand as part of the one shot combo to be effective.

 

Please do not slap the words "one-shot" and "combo" next to each other, that is the worst kind of an oxymoron.

 

If you are at a level in which a single off-hand skill on a single elite spec is causing you death PM me, I will be glad to get together in the game and teach you to deal with that simple situation. I would also like to share some information you seem possibly to be unaware of.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

 

That is a wiki page of skills you might find useful.

 

>This will make the opponent unaware or unable to take action which further amplifies the dmg.

 

Can you detail how this skill makes one "unable to take action"? When I was killing mesmers/thieves in WvW last night, or any day in the past, I have never encountered an action that could occur to me that prevented me from taking action. You may need to detail some more specifics as to your meaning.

 

>They can disengage or continue to press on with GS 5-4-3 mind stab combo immediately/ afterward while waiting for the cd resets.

 

Yeah, this is where I either use a leap skill to close the gap or a pull skill. I have never found the mesmers GS to be particularly threatening when used against me.

 

As to the use of skills left available while waiting for cooldown resets, don't we all do that?

 

 

[Eramonster.2718]

Any viable ranger build for wvw?

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> Any viable ranger build for wvw?

Yes, mesmer.

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> Any viable ranger build for wvw?

 

It depends on how lame you want to go, you can run minstrel druid with jacaranda and smokescale doing all your damage while you kite, stealth, heal and proc ancient seeds till the cows come home. You'll never die except from boredom but you'll pretty much win or draw every 1v1. Also means you'll do some serious healing to allies if it escalates but all damage is from pet so don't go zergin.

[Eramonster.2718]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > Any viable ranger build for wvw?

>

> It depends on how lame you want to go, you can run minstrel druid with jacaranda and smokescale doing all your damage while you kite, stealth, heal and proc ancient seeds till the cows come home. You'll never die except from boredom but you'll pretty much win or draw every 1v1. Also means you'll do some serious healing to allies if it escalates but all damage is from pet so don't go zergin.

 

Very much as you described, was for solo purpose. The result of 1vs1 with a Mirage placed me on the defensive cause lack in dmg to put him down (the pets which holds a fair amount of my dmg will be idle, unable to choose a target between the clones and phantasm). Will win fights if the target(single) and squishy & can outruns a Mirage.

 

Tried condi trapper, personally I don't recommend it. Takes forever to stack the condi, Mirage have the upper hand with evades, passive, and reflects. Aside from Mirage, Scourge will be another one of condi trapper concern with their Barrier and boon conversions. Honestly, never actually killed anyone with condi trapper, best I did was to annoy them.

 

Power builds, I would say 50-50 in WvW. But chances of winning using it against a Mirage, will make a 1v3 look easier. So if there's any variant ranger build that can give 50% chance of winning against a Mirage, I'm all ears.

 

PS : Probably a good time and easier to gear up my Spellbreaker. And don't get me wrong, I said it's possible for Mirage to instant burst to kill, did mention both side will be close to glass and it can be prevented with dodges etc. (I did) But it's a matter of time, to be overwhelmed by clones and phantasm (3 clones + phantasm) with Jaunt, there's where things get sticky on ranger.

[Ubi.4136]

I play soulbeast in full marauder armor (scholar runes) with full berserker accessories, use a dps pet, and mesmers rarely kill me. 99% of the time I am bonded with my pet, cause my alt pet is just for yak running. This really is a learn to play issue. People complain they don't want to have to equip 1 skill or trait to not be insta-killed, yet the mesmer is traiting all 3 lines, both weapons and 2 utilities to insta-kill you.

 

Things more broken in the game then mesmer (short list):

Warriors (spellbreaker in particular)

Holosmith

Initiative (yes, thieves really should get cooldowns on their abiliites if they are to ever be balanced)

Every skill that doesn't require line of sight

 

Things I think Anet should fix:

Red keep in EB should be moved further away from smc.

The aoe radius on meteor shower needs reduced. It should not be able to hit the stairs on the OTHER side of the wall while the wall is up, that's poor design.

Insert more stuff.

We have bigger issues, etc.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> While I do think mesmers ability to spike is a bit too high for all the survivability given from the mirage spec the actual burst hasn't really changed too much in damage except being able to double shatter with duel, illu and mirage but that comes at a reduction in damage from not having dom.

>

> On the other hand lets say you "reduce mesmer dps by 25%" as someone mentioned above, what will happen? Mesmer can't burst past the healing being put out by most classes and it now lacks the sustained damage to do much of anything. Put simply you would effectively delete it from the game.

>

> The solution we need is a reduction in damage *of all classes* as well as nerfing the flat healing and upping the cool downs of a lot of defences a bit too, not a huge amount just 5-10s. We have had the same base health pools since launch but damage has just been escalating with the expansions (just look at PvE dps figure trends) yet no increase to base health at all to help with this, not that I think that's what is needed. If you think mirage is imba but think FB, Scourge, SB, Rev, Holo, Druid and Thief are fine then you're only showing your bias, doubly so all those saying FB is fine.

 

You're absolutely right, but good luck convincing almost anybody left playing this game to give up their busted spec/build. There are people still complaining that firebrand doesn't have enough defense and scourge is weak in the PvP formats because it does low damage.

 

And I don't think ANet's profession devs could recognize bad class design if it slapped them in the face. I mean, the entirety of Deadeye's design is literally "just cheese them by abusing stealth for the OHKO," and that's the byproduct of sending them a document explaining specifically why we'd end up with what we have if we were to allow exactly what they implemented to exist, and how to get around it.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> > > Any viable ranger build for wvw?

> >

> > It depends on how lame you want to go, you can run minstrel druid with jacaranda and smokescale doing all your damage while you kite, stealth, heal and proc ancient seeds till the cows come home. You'll never die except from boredom but you'll pretty much win or draw every 1v1. Also means you'll do some serious healing to allies if it escalates but all damage is from pet so don't go zergin.

>

> Very much as you described, was for solo purpose. The result of 1vs1 with a Mirage placed me on the defensive cause lack in dmg to put him down (the pets which holds a fair amount of my dmg will be idle, unable to choose a target between the clones and phantasm). Will win fights if the target(single) and squishy & can outruns a Mirage.

>

> Tried condi trapper, personally I don't recommend it. Takes forever to stack the condi, Mirage have the upper hand with evades, passive, and reflects. Aside from Mirage, Scourge will be another one of condi trapper concern with their Barrier and boon conversions. Honestly, never actually killed anyone with condi trapper, best I did was to annoy them.

>

> Power builds, I would say 50-50 in WvW. But chances of winning using it against a Mirage, will make a 1v3 look easier. So if there's any variant ranger build that can give 50% chance of winning against a Mirage, I'm all ears.

>

> PS : Probably a good time and easier to gear up my Spellbreaker. And don't get me wrong, I said it's possible for Mirage to instant burst to kill, did mention both side will be close to glass and it can be prevented with dodges etc. (I did) But it's a matter of time, to be overwhelmed by clones and phantasm (3 clones + phantasm) with Jaunt, there's where things get sticky on ranger.

 

SB is super easy to gear up, I run marauder armour with durability runes then everything else zerk. I'm no pro warrior, not even close but I have 0 issues fighting outnumbered unless I severely overextend or don't pay any attention, fought some decent mirages on it and won but that's more my knowledge of mirage than skill on war.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

I mean...[what can go wrong right?](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/25400/damage-in-wvw-needs-nerf/p1 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/25400/damage-in-wvw-needs-nerf/p1")

[Zantal.4798]

What people are complaining about is that if you already have your mind on something else, and don't notice the 0.5s graphic tell that damage is incoming you will be downed. happened to me quite often as of lately.

 

If you are dueling the mesmer and you know what to look for (and you use your evades correctly) it is actually really easy to counter.

[Eramonster.2718]

Yes. The one shot is actually a combo of damage happening at the same time. The damage spike/ combined can happen instantaneously, bypassing threshold killing the player before immunity skill triggers. The recent patch changes made mesmer lose out constant dps, unintentionally increased the burst instead(phantasm). This put mesmers & mirage top tier in WvW roaming. Try not to be over defensive, when I was just trying to explain the one-shot.

 

> If you are dueling the mesmer and you know what to look for (and you use your evades correctly) it is actually really easy to counter.

Yes, failing will pay a hefty price. There are many ways to start the "one shot". Usually with stealth, surprising the enemy & giving no target the enemy is unable to take action which will amplifies the dmg taken(trait).

 

One of the memorable recent combat. A mirage was distorting/evading my projectile and went stealth. Baited my dodge with a duelist, magic bullet stun and shattered. The combat went into his favor after.

Ps : The first shatter could've probably one shot glass, and duelist can deal up to 8k crit.