I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[Aenaos.8160]

If you join a group that asks for meta builds,you are expected to perform and play your class in a very specific way.

I tend to avoid such groups,and there are plenty more casual ones for you to join,or even start your own listing with

any requirements you like,and no one will comment on the way you play in such parties.

The DPS meter had nothing to do with you being called out,they would still see you were switching to water or earth,

even without one.

And tagging other players as elitists is as wrong as tagging them as slackers or newbs.

Not all players want to or can achieve the same level of performance,and they have just as much a right in choosing their

party as everyone else.

 

 

[Blaeys.3102]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @Helbjorne.9368 said:

> > > @Blaeys.3102 said:

> > > It is much deeper than just dps meters. Recent developer decisions have moved GW2 away from being a game about creating a unique character and having fun to one about min-maxing and shaming anyone who doesn't play the "one true and accepted way" to play their profession.

> > >

> > > I have to think that it has something to do with the mass exodus of developers and team leaders we saw last year. It really does feel like the game has changed directions away from the community focused friendly experience that made it so popular, and that is just sad.

> >

> > I've always been a min-maxer, and just because someone wants to be a competitive player, whether it's through PvE or PvP, that doesn't make them an inherently "toxic" or unfun player. The issue is that given the current state of most professions there are clear cut BiS builds that are objectively more efficient than any other build, and not by a small margin either. This falls onto profession balancing, or the lack thereof. Due to poor balancing and outdated traits, skills, and weapons, players are no longer able to 'play their way' and still be relatively competitive. No one's going to care what build you're running if you're pulling 25k+ DPS, but unfortunately the amount of builds that are capable of pulling that for each class are limited to only one or two, and that's a design issue, not a player issue.

>

> Nothing wrong with being a min-maxer if thats what you enjoy. The only issue is the pressure on people to do meta i.e glass cannon by others who cannot see beyond their own goals. 99% of content does not need glass cannon/meta build, and many players couldn't care less that the build they enjoy is not at 25K, but yet even though viable, many players who focus on meta will be rude to others because to them its all about the numbers. If a player does not want to play glass cannon then that should be respected as long as the build is viable. Diversity is healthy, respect is good.

 

> @Helbjorne.9368 said:

> > @Blaeys.3102 said:

> > It is much deeper than just dps meters. Recent developer decisions have moved GW2 away from being a game about creating a unique character and having fun to one about min-maxing and shaming anyone who doesn't play the "one true and accepted way" to play their profession.

> >

> > I have to think that it has something to do with the mass exodus of developers and team leaders we saw last year. It really does feel like the game has changed directions away from the community focused friendly experience that made it so popular, and that is just sad.

>

> I've always been a min-maxer, and just because someone wants to be a competitive player, whether it's through PvE or PvP, that doesn't make them an inherently "toxic" or unfun player. The issue is that given the current state of most professions there are clear cut BiS builds that are objectively more efficient than any other build, and not by a small margin either. This falls onto profession balancing, or the lack thereof. Due to poor balancing and outdated traits, skills, and weapons, players are no longer able to 'play their way' and still be relatively competitive. No one's going to care what build you're running if you're pulling 25k+ DPS, but unfortunately the amount of builds that are capable of pulling that for each class are limited to only one or two, and that's a design issue, not a player issue.

 

I agree completely - there is nothing wrong with min-maxing. I hope my response didn't come across as derisive or critical of those that do.

 

And I also agree that it really is a design fault more than a player fault. There is still an amazing community in GW2.

 

But recent content and design choice by ArenaNet have, unfortunately, empowered the uglier side of the community (no matter how small) - giving them the tools and justifications needed to create the elitist environment many of us hoped would just forget about GW2. And, while it has always been a small part of the game (exclusion of certain professions from some dungeon groups historically), there is no debating that, in the past year, it has reached a very unhealthy and destructive level.

 

While some blame can be handed to the players, I primarily hold Anet and the developers responsible due to VERY bad design decisions and encouraging tools that actually give the trolls and elitists more power.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

This is part of why I have avoided raids since their inception in GW2. It's not because I don't believe I am capable of completing them -- and I am quite certain by now they've become so ingrained into players routines by now that they get completed regularly without issue -- but rather, it's because you're expected to mold to a very specific play style, with a very specific build, fulfilling a very specific role, achieving very specific set measurements of performance (either in terms of damage or otherwise, depending on aforementioned role), which in my mind does go against the spirit of what the game was originally trying to achieve (which was to get rid of stereotype MMO roles).

 

Even the mere thought of it is mentally exhausting, because I can picture situations similar to those mentioned in the OP, with players throwing a fit every time you take a single step out of line. I'm sure this doesn't happen all the time, and I am sure there are some friendly raid groups who are more helpful and less militaristic in their mannerisms, but the idea of encountering the bad apples on a regular basis is unappealing enough that it makes me think I'm better off not bothering at all. It's also rather ironic that it's often the players that die first that complain the most, because they have a tendency to conjure up the sensational argument that their death is somehow someone or everyone else's fault.

 

Also, while I agree with the thought that it's the nature of the content itself and the high risk of failure that tends to drive this elitist mindset, I also think DPS meters do perpetuate the problem to a degree. I had a friend who was kicked out of a level 40 Fractal farm (which is not exactly high risk content) because someone said his damage was not quite up to par (which said player apparently discerned through a DPS meter). This is something I find quite distasteful. I mean, I don't mind it if players want to form elite groups with the intention of completing content as efficiently as possible, by all means go ahead, but I also think said players should rather form organized groups with like-minded peers, rather than put a generic party advertisement on the LFG tool, only to kick people afterwards because their pug was not miraculously performing like a perfectly coordinated, well-oiled military force.

[MetalGirl.2370]

I agree that DPS meters is bad, and I even play meta builds always.

But to all people who say "it stops leechers"... I gotta say, you do have the point [kind of] but still, if you know how to play and recognize skills and what people are doing, you can 100% see if someone is doing something useful or leeching by the way they play or skills they use [if they do].

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

> @MetalGirl.2370 said:

> I agree that DPS meters is bad, and I even play meta builds always.

> But to all people who say "it stops leechers"... I gotta say, you do have the point [kind of] but still, if you know how to play and recognize skills and what people are doing, you can 100% see if someone is doing something useful or leeching by the way they play or skills they use [if they do].

 

Don't agree. I have taken a few pugs through dungeon runs practically carrying them. But they tried, I watch them revive eatchother promptly... I see they put effort. And they are noobs in a shit gear underlevel etc.... But they put effort.

 

And even though I did 80% of the work. I Do not believe for one moment that they are leeches.

[Abakk.9176]

> @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> > @MetalGirl.2370 said:

> > I agree that DPS meters is bad, and I even play meta builds always.

> > But to all people who say "it stops leechers"... I gotta say, you do have the point [kind of] but still, if you know how to play and recognize skills and what people are doing, you can 100% see if someone is doing something useful or leeching by the way they play or skills they use [if they do].

>

> Don't agree. I have taken a few pugs through dungeon runs practically carrying them. But they tried, I watch them revive eatchother promptly... I see they put effort. And they are noobs in a kitten gear underlevel etc.... But they put effort.

>

> And even though I did 80% of the work. I Do not believe for one moment that they are leeches.

 

I wish i still could be of use in that way. I would be constantly pulling people through places they otherwise would never see.

 

What is the use of beeing the stronger one if you only use it for your own personal gain.

 

[sorudo.9054]

in the end, when DPS is the problem then Anet has their work cut out for them, a nice nerf to the DPS crowd (like champions that has weaknesses outside DPS but punishes players with high DPS)

GW is suppose to be based on strategic thinking, GW2 is clearly a huge step down from that and turned in to a briandead DPs fest.

[PaxTheGreatOne.9472]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > @PaxTheGreatOne.9472 said:

> > > @Jarvis.9540 said:

> > > Tonight in a t4 fractal PUG I got yelled at for temporarily attuning to water on my meta zerker elementalist (a build I've begrudgingly acquiesced into playing after seeing the party finder messages aimed at keeping my necro main from participating) after 3 of my 5 party members died, and I attempted to heal and rez everyone. I was sternly advised that my tempest is supposed to always be in fire or air. Weird. The main thing I liked about ele is its versatility and ability to hop into defense and save a party as needed. Apparently one of my party members was running "arc dps" (previously unknown to me - a tool that can show every party member's dps to each other) and saw that my dps dropped below his dead body's average numbers because he bursted the fight (ignoring mechanics) right up until he died while I tried to clean everyone up. It's a strange thing to be yelled at by a person that you are trying to save/rez because your dps numbers are dwindling while doing so.

> > >

> > > This is my umpteenth night in a row dealing with folks shouting at each other (even if it's not always directed at me) over parsed dps numbers in higher-level fractals. I'm really tired of it.

> >

> > I run fire / water / tempest regularly when groups fail to stay alive. Or I swap to an actual Auramancer build or Druid. I might consider going zealot as it tends to be enough on auramancers and druids , but I have magi and minstrel as well if a hard carry proves neccesary. But back to elementalist : Only swapping to water during my rotation gives 10 second of very light heals adding to sustain. I can fit this in my noral rotation easily. If needed with some aura's from water 4 and water 2 for vigor and regen and added regen from 5. and maybe even a few auto's and a spike from 3 if needed. If the group dies a lot they clearly have problems running meta without healing, and as such they should not complain you take some time to heal and res ppl up. I prefer to do my fractals in 1 go, even if it requires me to drop some maximum dps for options to reset the group or sustain the group without having to /gg, The gg is an automatic loss for the DPS side.... Trying to prevent a wipe is a wiser course of action then just restarting. Saying DPS is the only thing and commenting shows they cannot use the DPS meter, cause DPS is only nice if you finish an event. if not it's all useless. You can have the highest DPS in guild wars 2 but if you fail to complete content it's pointless.

> >

> > **The 1st thing about meta: it's fastest, as long as the group can finish content in 1 go.**

> >

> > If they cannot any party might be faster. Having someone healing is always a loss of DPS. And it can make your party faster if it can avoid a wipe... even with lowered DPS. Ppl who are dead connot DPS at all. Even if they killed 50+% of a boss solo it could still fail if others cannot dps or die to mechanics due to the death of the person, due to ressing or needing to drop to or from other roles to replace the casualty. Having DPS outweigh ressing downed is a very bad consequence of DPS meters, and often a reason for parties to breakup.

> >

> > 1 fail is so much DPS loss and it's unneeded to do pure maxed DPS rotationas long as you do not have a timer in your event.

> > I think: If you'd be runing a group based on only power builds you could use non ferocity builds and still get higher in the end when compared to a META DPS build failing late in an encounter;..... This as ferocity adds to dmg from 150% crits to 220 %crits (ferocity only adding 50% bonus dmg to crits only)... if a meta group dies after killing a boss 50% any non ferocity build would be faster (on average DPS over the total time spend at the encounter) not having ferocity leaves a lot of styat open for heals, bunkering and such lowering chances of dying to a minimum.

> >

> > Why? Because your dps might be high on arcdps , you still took 2 tries making the time used by Arc DPS a wrong figure.

> > Arc dps (or other dps calcualtion options) will not take in account the failed attempt and doesn't reduce the real dps done in the time you had to do the engagement till finish by adding the time of the failed encounter ).

> > If you can do 30k dps/ person and your party dies at 90% of the encounter you will have 30k/1.9 actual duration for 15.7k final dps actual on the encounter... If someone drops 5 or 10 k dps to get up some regen now and then and you get enough sustain and not die you will do 29 or 28 k dps on average and have less stree on finishing your encounter and eventually on your content. Even when a (healer/buffer/mitigator) person only does 5k dps and you drop to 25 k on avarage you'll com out ahead on 1 failed attempt.

> >

> > Oh as an afterthought: In fractals I regurlarly run my necro in necro parties (condi groups or 4 necro 1 druid) They tend to be very stable an potent groups capable of doing t4 in good time. Enourmous sustain. Fails are rare. But I rarely do CM's.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Arcdps resets when encounters reset, it doesn't keep the old values calculated. Just saying.

>

 

Yes. A DPS Meter does reset. It will give you a new fresh DPS at start of your second try.

But since it forgets /resets is values you might not consider your actual time from the DPS over the total time of the encounter is still ticking... And that's precisely the point I tried to make. DPS is only valid if you kill stuff 1st try. If you cannot.... your DPS meter can tell you you are doing the same amount of dmg, but as it doesn't consider the time your avg DPS you have during the times you fought that boss... plumets...

 

If you fail your encounter, the meter resets and you think you are still doing the same dps whcih is accurate for the new fight but not for the time you spend on that boss, a.k.a. the encounter, cause the time you spend on the previous attempts ALSO counts, it contains the first try/tries. Making your effective DPS for that encounter lower.... If you're party wiped at 90% like I suggested above you will kill it 1 time in 1.9 times the time it would take you compared to 1 succesful try and all DPS on the second try should be DPS/1.9 for a valid comparison with a more defensively build group capable of doing content in 1 go no matter what.

 

1st attempt: 30k avg on party, total time is time spend if succesfull: normal calcualtion of ARC DPS, if not succesful this is lost time you did spend on the enconter

2nd attempt: 30k avg on party, total time is time spend + time spend on failed attempt

if you take this added time in consideration, you'll notice your avg DPS for the 2 attempts on the encounter will be reduced....

 

DPS/time at the encounter. = avg DPS you provided over the total time it took you to finish the encounter.

1st try: 30 / 1 = 30 (30k avg on 1 attempt) (DPS meter is right)

2 tries: 30 / 1+??? = less then 30. (30k on how much added time due to fails?) (DPS meter is right for the try, but not accurate for the total time spend on the encounter.)

 

like the example wiping 1st try at 90%.

30 / 1.9 =15.7 (just to show a nearly good attempt ending in a wipe will lower the DPS you did in the 2 tries is potentially a lot lower)

 

Considering above short calculations any failed attempt is a loss of TIME in the content you do, and therefore a loss of DPS

The dmg you dealt might be higher, but is invalidated by the reset, time however keeps ticking.

 

This is what I mean. DPS Meters might be nice, but the need is trivial in all non timed events. DPS meters should not be considered valid information if a person could help with more durability for a party if they cannot complete content in 1 go . Groups and especially PUGs (Pick-Up Groups (LFG GROUPS)) can be unstable and can contain ppl with radical different amounts of experience of encounter s and class... Just focussing everything on MAX DPS can be problematic. As such finishing content effectively and without wipes will be more pleasant then getting confronted with opinions often read from a DPS meter without context .

 

A DPS meter doesn't account for ressing, heals, need to go ooc to heal up and prevent going down , dodges or needing time to do mechanics, nor does it account for wiping or a lot of downtime during encounters.

A lot of people do not consider this either. In some cases It might record healing and CC's done, boons gives. But if people only focus DPS this is lost and vital information.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @PaxTheGreatOne.9472 said:

> > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > @PaxTheGreatOne.9472 said:

> > > > @Jarvis.9540 said:

> > > > Tonight in a t4 fractal PUG I got yelled at for temporarily attuning to water on my meta zerker elementalist (a build I've begrudgingly acquiesced into playing after seeing the party finder messages aimed at keeping my necro main from participating) after 3 of my 5 party members died, and I attempted to heal and rez everyone. I was sternly advised that my tempest is supposed to always be in fire or air. Weird. The main thing I liked about ele is its versatility and ability to hop into defense and save a party as needed. Apparently one of my party members was running "arc dps" (previously unknown to me - a tool that can show every party member's dps to each other) and saw that my dps dropped below his dead body's average numbers because he bursted the fight (ignoring mechanics) right up until he died while I tried to clean everyone up. It's a strange thing to be yelled at by a person that you are trying to save/rez because your dps numbers are dwindling while doing so.

> > > >

> > > > This is my umpteenth night in a row dealing with folks shouting at each other (even if it's not always directed at me) over parsed dps numbers in higher-level fractals. I'm really tired of it.

> > >

> > > I run fire / water / tempest regularly when groups fail to stay alive. Or I swap to an actual Auramancer build or Druid. I might consider going zealot as it tends to be enough on auramancers and druids , but I have magi and minstrel as well if a hard carry proves neccesary. But back to elementalist : Only swapping to water during my rotation gives 10 second of very light heals adding to sustain. I can fit this in my noral rotation easily. If needed with some aura's from water 4 and water 2 for vigor and regen and added regen from 5. and maybe even a few auto's and a spike from 3 if needed. If the group dies a lot they clearly have problems running meta without healing, and as such they should not complain you take some time to heal and res ppl up. I prefer to do my fractals in 1 go, even if it requires me to drop some maximum dps for options to reset the group or sustain the group without having to /gg, The gg is an automatic loss for the DPS side.... Trying to prevent a wipe is a wiser course of action then just restarting. Saying DPS is the only thing and commenting shows they cannot use the DPS meter, cause DPS is only nice if you finish an event. if not it's all useless. You can have the highest DPS in guild wars 2 but if you fail to complete content it's pointless.

> > >

> > > **The 1st thing about meta: it's fastest, as long as the group can finish content in 1 go.**

> > >

> > > If they cannot any party might be faster. Having someone healing is always a loss of DPS. And it can make your party faster if it can avoid a wipe... even with lowered DPS. Ppl who are dead connot DPS at all. Even if they killed 50+% of a boss solo it could still fail if others cannot dps or die to mechanics due to the death of the person, due to ressing or needing to drop to or from other roles to replace the casualty. Having DPS outweigh ressing downed is a very bad consequence of DPS meters, and often a reason for parties to breakup.

> > >

> > > 1 fail is so much DPS loss and it's unneeded to do pure maxed DPS rotationas long as you do not have a timer in your event.

> > > I think: If you'd be runing a group based on only power builds you could use non ferocity builds and still get higher in the end when compared to a META DPS build failing late in an encounter;..... This as ferocity adds to dmg from 150% crits to 220 %crits (ferocity only adding 50% bonus dmg to crits only)... if a meta group dies after killing a boss 50% any non ferocity build would be faster (on average DPS over the total time spend at the encounter) not having ferocity leaves a lot of styat open for heals, bunkering and such lowering chances of dying to a minimum.

> > >

> > > Why? Because your dps might be high on arcdps , you still took 2 tries making the time used by Arc DPS a wrong figure.

> > > Arc dps (or other dps calcualtion options) will not take in account the failed attempt and doesn't reduce the real dps done in the time you had to do the engagement till finish by adding the time of the failed encounter ).

> > > If you can do 30k dps/ person and your party dies at 90% of the encounter you will have 30k/1.9 actual duration for 15.7k final dps actual on the encounter... If someone drops 5 or 10 k dps to get up some regen now and then and you get enough sustain and not die you will do 29 or 28 k dps on average and have less stree on finishing your encounter and eventually on your content. Even when a (healer/buffer/mitigator) person only does 5k dps and you drop to 25 k on avarage you'll com out ahead on 1 failed attempt.

> > >

> > > Oh as an afterthought: In fractals I regurlarly run my necro in necro parties (condi groups or 4 necro 1 druid) They tend to be very stable an potent groups capable of doing t4 in good time. Enourmous sustain. Fails are rare. But I rarely do CM's.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Arcdps resets when encounters reset, it doesn't keep the old values calculated. Just saying.

> >

>

> Yes. A DPS Meter does reset. It will give you a new fresh DPS at start of your second try.

> But since it forgets /resets is values you might not consider your actual time from the DPS over the total time of the encounter is still ticking... And that's precisely the point I tried to make. DPS is only valid if you kill stuff 1st try. If you cannot.... your DPS meter can tell you you are doing the same amount of dmg, but as it doesn't consider the time your avg DPS you have during the times you fought that boss... plumets...

>

> If you fail your encounter, the meter resets and you think you are still doing the same dps whcih is accurate for the new fight but not for the time you spend on that boss, a.k.a. the encounter, cause the time you spend on the previous attempts ALSO counts, it contains the first try/tries. Making your effective DPS for that encounter lower.... If you're party wiped at 90% like I suggested above you will kill it 1 time in 1.9 times the time it would take you compared to 1 succesful try and all DPS on the second try should be DPS/1.9 for a valid comparison with a more defensively build group capable of doing content in 1 go no matter what.

>

> 1st attempt: 30k avg on party, total time is time spend if succesfull: normal calcualtion of ARC DPS, if not succesful this is lost time you did spend on the enconter

> 2nd attempt: 30k avg on party, total time is time spend + time spend on failed attempt

> if you take this added time in consideration, you'll notice your avg DPS for the 2 attempts on the encounter will be reduced....

>

> DPS/time at the encounter. = avg DPS you provided over the total time it took you to finish the encounter.

> 1st try: 30 / 1 = 30 (30k avg on 1 attempt) (DPS meter is right)

> 2 tries: 30 / 1+??? = less then 30. (30k on how much added time due to fails?) (DPS meter is right for the try, but not accurate for the total time spend on the encounter.)

>

> like the example wiping 1st try at 90%.

> 30 / 1.9 =15.7 (just to show a nearly good attempt ending in a wipe will lower the DPS you did in the 2 tries is potentially a lot lower)

>

> Considering above short calculations any failed attempt is a loss of TIME in the content you do, and therefore a loss of DPS

> The dmg you dealt might be higher, but is invalidated by the reset, time however keeps ticking.

>

> This is what I mean. DPS Meters might be nice, but the need is trivial in all non timed events. DPS meters should not be considered valid information if a person could help with more durability for a party if they cannot complete content in 1 go . Groups and especially PUGs (Pick-Up Groups (LFG GROUPS)) can be unstable and can contain ppl with radical different amounts of experience of encounter s and class... Just focussing everything on MAX DPS can be problematic. As such finishing content effectively and without wipes will be more pleasant then getting confronted with opinions often read from a DPS meter without context .

>

> A DPS meter doesn't account for ressing, heals, need to go ooc to heal up and prevent going down , dodges or needing time to do mechanics, nor does it account for wiping or a lot of downtime during encounters.

> A lot of people do not consider this either. In some cases It might record healing and CC's done, boons gives. But if people only focus DPS this is lost and vital information.

 

Dps isn't determine over the whole time fighting the boss on each encounter of it, it per encounter basis...

 

Actually Arc does acct for all those Boons/heals/ress etc. you can display all of those metrics.... it's not just dps it shows.

 

Again dps only matters on per encounter basis not every attempt on the boss.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

> @Abakk.9176 said:

> > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> > > @MetalGirl.2370 said:

> > > I agree that DPS meters is bad, and I even play meta builds always.

> > > But to all people who say "it stops leechers"... I gotta say, you do have the point [kind of] but still, if you know how to play and recognize skills and what people are doing, you can 100% see if someone is doing something useful or leeching by the way they play or skills they use [if they do].

> >

> > Don't agree. I have taken a few pugs through dungeon runs practically carrying them. But they tried, I watch them revive eatchother promptly... I see they put effort. And they are noobs in a kitten gear underlevel etc.... But they put effort.

> >

> > And even though I did 80% of the work. I Do not believe for one moment that they are leeches.

>

> I wish i still could be of use in that way. I would be constantly pulling people through places they otherwise would never see.

>

> What is the use of beeing the stronger one if you only use it for your own personal gain.

>

 

What do you mean still? Every bit helps and you sound like exactly what this game needs.

[PaxTheGreatOne.9472]

> @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > @PaxTheGreatOne.9472 said: -snip-

> > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: -snip

> > > > @PaxTheGreatOne.9472 said: -snip-

> > > > > @Jarvis.9540 said: -snip-

 

>

> Dps isn't determine over the whole time fighting the boss on each encounter of it, it per encounter basis...

>

> Actually Arc does acct for all those Boons/heals/ress etc. you can display all of those metrics.... it's not just dps it shows.

>

> Again dps only matters on per encounter basis not every attempt on the boss.

 

DPS is only interesting if you want to clear somthing as fast as possible. Inherently this means 1 try and succes.

 

IF you fail DPS (= Damage per second) might be the same for you.

 

For me personally DPS is **Damage for the complete and whole time spend fighting the boss**, including fails and wipes cause I spend those seconds in the end. Including bio times, repair runs, food pickups and drinking pauses and ppl failing to enter.... though not being alert or afk.

 

This makes your DPS a value you can sustain during an encounter with no value of the time you lose during instances you fail....

And this makes my DPS a value which is based upon a continous time in encounters.

 

If I'd had a CM fractal for example and I did perfect dps, but I had to try to kill some bosses 2 times , while a group doing good sustainable ok but not special dps and had no wipes or retries at all. Would my DPS during this fractal be higher or lower in the time both groups played over the whole fractal if I'd take longer completing the fractal at the end? Even if my DPS meter number were higher? NO. It would not. Both encounters had to kill the same amount of HP.

 

Cause even though the second group did lower dps in fight they finished ahead. Damage per second can be extended beyond the 1 try of a fight. This is a problem when running DPS meters. This is not considered. IF you fail 1 time in an encounter a huge amount of other builds not doing perfect DPS with more sustain can be used tgo complete content in the time you need to complete your content + the failed attempt.

 

Non killed bosses have still 100% health when retrying, so time spend there remains, but DPS during that time is 0, zero. Time starts ticking when you enter a raid wing and stops when you leave. If you killed no boss in raids you effectively did 0 DPS. even if you got him to 2% 4 times. So resetting of time in DPS meters might be nice for your damage comparison, but is trivial when looking over the complete encounter. Unless you kill all enemies in 1 go. And even then you neeed to travel.

 

Speedrunning dungeons is not only about the fast kill of bosses but also about the fast and efficent navigation of the dungeon itself also time spend.

 

**The 1st thing about meta: it's fastest, as long as the group can finish content in 1 go**

 

The "1 go" is the prime thing here. not "the meta" and it's DPS benches.... they are actually pretty trivial

 

[David.5974]

After I saw name of title , I believe that this must be player who play tempest - and It is true!!

 

I tell you something - over 1 year I was struggle with my engi because nobody believe that I can put better/same dps in raids / fotm then tempest. Now I have tool no no tool ... Weapon !! To show them how wrong they are. Finally It is about skill - not meta class

[sephiroth.4217]

I didn't do much PvE in this game to begin with but I dropped PvE altogether once those meters came out. Most of my PvE builds are something that I find useful for me and not 100% berserker.

Ontop of that is the general rage I normally I receive when I try PvE, HoT for instance.... I could not explore the new maps in first person mode and thoroughly enjoy the scenery without someone yelling at me because I'm not doing the META event.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Dps Meters, Ppl selling Raids, Fractals T4 kills. nice direction this game is going. Gold Sellers love it.

Many years ago, I met Gw2 by a friend who is a Gold Seller predator, he only stayed 1 week in the game and gave up. I ended up liking it and stayed for many years. he left because he did not see at the time, in the game, any "elite farm".

 

[Abakk.9176]

> @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> What do you mean still? Every bit helps and you sound like exactly what this game needs.

 

Its not that hard really. All you need is the desire to help others and enjoy it. Anyone can do it.

 

Since a few years I have a health problem that killed off my response time among a bunch of other problems. If there is fire or any other bad stuff you can be certain im standing in it. :)

 

I do well enough for my own purpose in PvE, outside of instances and groups. But i am of no use to any sort of group doing an instance.

 

The harshness with wich people get booted out is sometimes nausiating. I'm well done with that and have no desire to return to that scene.

 

Fortunately in GW2 you are able to play a support role in events. No checkups, no leader screaming in your ear that you are standing in the fire, no painful verbal abuse when you forget what you were doing.

 

I found a 'Paladin' build on the Internet for my Guardian and try to res, heal and buff (boon) as much as possible during events, while also trying to get the attention of any bad guy during a fight so that the DPS has an easier time to kill it off. I realise any given fight can have a just as happy ending without me around but i still enjoy the idea of having helped.

 

I am still tweaking the build to suit my needs better. Still quite new to this game so mistakes are made and im slow to pick up , but it is fun to do and now i am trying to do the same in other Professions.

 

So basically i am still at it... :)

 

 

 

 

 

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

> @Abakk.9176 said:

> > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> > What do you mean still? Every bit helps and you sound like exactly what this game needs.

>

> Its not that hard really. All you need is the desire to help others and enjoy it. Anyone can do it.

>

> Since a few years I have a health problem that killed off my response time among a bunch of other problems. If there is fire or any other bad stuff you can be certain im standing in it. :)

>

> I do well enough for my own purpose in PvE, outside of instances and groups. But i am of no use to any sort of group doing an instance.

>

> The harshness with wich people get booted out is sometimes nausiating. I'm well done with that and have no desire to return to that scene.

>

> Fortunately in GW2 you are able to play a support role in events. No checkups, no leader screaming in your ear that you are standing in the fire, no painful verbal abuse when you forget what you were doing.

>

> I found a 'Paladin' build on the Internet for my Guardian and try to res, heal and buff (boon) as much as possible during events, while also trying to get the attention of any bad guy during a fight so that the DPS has an easier time to kill it off. I realise any given fight can have a just as happy ending without me around but i still enjoy the idea of having helped.

>

> I am still tweaking the build to suit my needs better. Still quite new to this game so mistakes are made and im slow to pick up , but it is fun to do and now i am trying to do the same in other Professions.

>

> So basically i am still at it... :)

>

>

>

>

>

 

Let me know if you need anything in game. Always mail message me, I am a notorious DR afker so don't always get whispers.

 

Always good to play with people like this. I could be doing raids but I find it much more satisfying picking berries and killing level 4 bandits, I'm down for good company.

[Abakk.9176]

> @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> Let me know if you need anything in game. Always mail message me, I am a notorious DR afker so don't always get whispers.

>

> Always good to play with people like this. I could be doing raids but I find it much more satisfying picking berries and killing level 4 bandits, I'm down for good company.

 

Thanks for the offer.

 

I may take you up on it soon. I hear them lvl 4 bandits are a pain so you might need a hand with them ;)

 

 

[Syktek.7912]

> @David.5974 said:

> After I saw name of title , I believe that this must be player who play tempest - and It is true!!

>

> I tell you something - over 1 year I was struggle with my engi because nobody believe that I can put better/same dps in raids / fotm then tempest. Now I have tool no no tool ... Weapon !! To show them how wrong they are. Finally It is about skill - not meta class

 

Yep, it's pretty funny how most Tempests are absolute trash and can't do the simple rotation. Same ones who don't like being called out for it I'd say. Doing 8k DPS when you should be doing 40k on KC is inexcusable. No one wants to carry you.

[Demeth.5816]

Arcdps is a tool, not a weapon. Report that kind of behaviors, anet hates them as much as you do.

 

Don't put everyone in the same basket please.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

> @Syktek.7912 said:

> > @David.5974 said:

> > After I saw name of title , I believe that this must be player who play tempest - and It is true!!

> >

> > I tell you something - over 1 year I was struggle with my engi because nobody believe that I can put better/same dps in raids / fotm then tempest. Now I have tool no no tool ... Weapon !! To show them how wrong they are. Finally It is about skill - not meta class

>

> Yep, it's pretty funny how most Tempests are absolute trash and can't do the simple rotation. Same ones who don't like being called out for it I'd say. Doing 8k DPS when you should be doing 40k on KC is inexcusable. No one wants to carry you.

 

Well, if other players weren't dying, the tempest wouldn't have had to go out of their rotation to try heal/revive them. And even then, the tempest doing 8k dps is still running laps around the downed/dead player with zero dps who can do nothing but complain.

[zealex.9410]

@"WARIORSCHARGEING.2637" I mean anet let the proism and elitism come into the game when the released it.

 

@"Jarvis.9540" " a word to you. It's fine to tune in water/earth when it's absolutely needed to ress or keep alive your group and that tempest was prob a scrub for telling u otherwise.

 

But that's not an issue with the dps that's an issue with him personally. Do you think if there weren't dps metters, he wouldn't rage seeing you attune to water and ressing?

 

This behaviour has existed since lauch and just continueously changes forms.

 

But lets take a look from a diff prespective. If you so chose to go in that group and ask to play as a necro claiming you can pull your weight, the meter would show that hence giving you the right.

 

Tools like raid heroes that save your performance on fractals/raids on the internet for everyone to see helps you show that "hey im playing necro and pulling my weight".

 

Before the metter u would never see something other than the meta comp and instead of asking for "Dps" in lfg allowing for a variety of diff classes to join would only ask for ele.

 

The lack of proof ppl would have to show that they are pulling their w8 and are being meaningful assets to their group would lead ppl to kick the guard, the necro and the thief out of ignorance, even if the guard/necro, thief where top dps (higher than the proclaimed top dps eles).

 

Meters have allowed ppl to see that you can do just as well with diff classes and hence strive to achieve that bringing finally some much needed diversity into the game.

 

U cant view a dps meter as a tool to only promote bad behaviour elitism etc as you can't view a kitchen knife as a tool to hurt others. It obviously depends on the beholder and how rational/knowledgeable he is.

 

Iv been in the hardest content that Pve can offer at times when the most frustration could be experience and ppl manage to remain calm and collected while using such tools.

 

 

[sigur.9453]

 

> Well, if other players weren't dying, the tempest wouldn't have had to go out of their rotation to try heal/revive them. And even then, the tempest doing 8k dps is still running laps around the downed/dead player with zero dps who can do nothing but complain.

 

Well, and now it´s the time to argue:

 

Did the other die because the ghost add wasn´t killed fast enough because of lacking dmg?

Because 9 Ppl tried to work together build/skill wise and only one is so egocentric that he HAS to play his own build because he simple likes it?

 

Personaly i think dps meters have improved the whole playerbase. I thought i was a good ele, god was i wrong. But i worked on it, so did countless others, and that makes every encounter much more easier.

 

Raids and fractals are a team effort, where i expect everyone i run with took as much dedication as i did. Same if you play in a amateur sports team. Sure there are better and worst player but at least someone can show effort (= right build/class and actually fullfilling his role)

 

Sure, you can play whatever you want but you should defenitly check out with all other before, because everyone has there own expectations.

 

It´s simply to easy to call the community toxic because there are always more sides to look at.

 

 

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @Zacchary.6183 said:

> > @Razor.9872 said:

> > It's so weird. I've played more than my fare share of fractals, raids, and endgame content ever since launch back in 2012, but I've only had this happen to me once in all my hours of play. Is it really this common? If so, how have I been avoiding it so consistently? :confused:

>

> Might depend on the server.

 

Megaservers ???

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

> @sigur.9453 said:

>

> > Well, if other players weren't dying, the tempest wouldn't have had to go out of their rotation to try heal/revive them. And even then, the tempest doing 8k dps is still running laps around the downed/dead player with zero dps who can do nothing but complain.

>

> Well, and now it´s the time to argue:

>

> Did the other die because the ghost add wasn´t killed fast enough because of lacking dmg?

> Because 9 Ppl tried to work together build/skill wise and only one is so egocentric that he HAS to play his own build because he simple likes it?

>

> Personaly i think dps meters have improved the whole playerbase. I thought i was a good ele, god was i wrong. But i worked on it, so did countless others, and that makes every encounter much more easier.

>

> Raids and fractals are a team effort, where i expect everyone i run with took as much dedication as i did. Same if you play in a amateur sports team. Sure there are better and worst player but at least someone can show effort (= right build/class and actually fullfilling his role)

>

> Sure, you can play whatever you want but you should defenitly check out with all other before, because everyone has there own expectations.

>

> It´s simply to easy to call the community toxic because there are always more sides to look at.

>

>

>

>

 

Of course there are more sides to look at, but I cannot speculate on what happened, I can only go by what information is provided to us. In this case, the OP is specifically relating to a situation that occurred in a T4 fractal (not a raid), and mentions how 3 our of their 5 teammates were dead or dying and how they were scolded for trying to rescue the situation by switching out of dps to try and heal/revive their team.

 

So, if we discuss this particular situation within its context, I would say that when half of your team has wiped, flaming about one of the two remaining players not doing enough dps is a bit folly by that stage, given that the three wiped players, one of whom is the complainant, are doing zero damage themselves. You see, this isn't just a case of whether or not the OP was pulling their weight. It's a case where the mere thought of a dead player complaining about a live players dps is just beyond stupid. It's like a Formula 1 driver complaining that their teammate isn't in first place after crashing their own car. If you're going to criticize others, at least ensure you're in a better position yourself first.

 

Lastly, if you have unrealistic expectations for pug groups, be prepared to be disappointed. When playing with pugs, you should be ready to deal with unexpected situations or less than perfect team compositions, and if you don't want to deal with that from time to time, then form organized groups instead, it's simple. Of course, there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism or trying to help other players better themselves by pointing out what they might be doing wrong, but there's a difference between criticism or advice, and simply flaming. A dead guy complaining to their live teammate for not having 40k dps would definitely fall under the latter. Ultimately, DPS meters may indeed help players better themselves, but like many tools, they can also be used for abusive purposes. Some players treat them like the holy bible on player performance, and don't' consider that sometimes you have to adapt your play style to accommodate situational changes that might not be your fault to begin with.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

 

> So, if we discuss this particular situation within its context, I would say that when half of your team has wiped, flaming about one of the two remaining players not doing enough dps is a bit folly by that stage, given that the three wiped players, one of whom is the complainant, are doing zero damage themselves. You see, this isn't just a case of whether or not the OP was pulling their weight. It's a case where the mere thought of a dead player complaining about a live players dps is just beyond stupid. It's like a Formula 1 driver complaining that their teammate isn't in first place after crashing their own car. If you're going to criticize others, at least ensure you're in a better position yourself first.

>

 

As in the light of information we have it is indeed beyond stupid behavior by the dead player.

But honestly, i don´t see the point in making a forum post and starting this whole "elistism,dps meter,meta..." disscusion again.

I don´t know how many fractal grps are formed each day but i guess quite a lot.

 

If we would have a general problem with the community we would see way more threads like this.

There are bad apples everywhere, and "isolatet incidents" can happen.

 

Sure it everyones right to complain publicly, but sometimes you can simply swallow your pride, leave the grp and carry on.

 

> Lastly, if you have unrealistic expectations for pug groups, be prepared to be disappointed. When playing with pugs, you should be ready to deal with unexpected situations or less than perfect team compositions, and if you don't want to deal with that from time to time, then form organized groups instead, it's simple. Of course, there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism or trying to help other players better themselves by pointing out what they might be doing wrong, but there's a difference between criticism or advice, and simply flaming. A dead guy complaining to their live teammate for not having 40k dps would definitely fall under the latter. Ultimately, DPS meters may indeed help players better themselves, but like many tools, they can also be used for abusive purposes. Some players treat them like the holy bible on player performance, and don't' consider that sometimes you have to adapt your play style to accommodate situational changes that might not be your fault to begin with.

 

 

So were AP points. No reason to remove them from the game though.