Scourge is still breaking WvW...

[MadBomber.3719]

Mass scourge is strong in large numbers but can easily be countered by a skilled guild group. lack of range and inability to push in heavy CCs.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @GottFaust.5297 said:

> > @Aeolus.3615 said:

> > > @GottFaust.5297 said:

> > > > @XenesisII.1540 said:

> > > > > @Shadowresli.3782 said:

> > > > > can someone explain to me, why pirate ship is so bad (or better, disliked)?

> > > >

> > > > Because it makes half the classes useless?

> > > > Melee classes aren't going to push when they get completely boon stripped or boon corrupted, cc'd and then bombed hard on.

> > > > You end up with 20 min standstills of people just throwing red circles into the empty area between them, not exactly "fun".

> > >

> > > Boonball makes the other half useless. Range is useless when there's an invulnerable ball of boonstacked melee destroying literally everything in its path that can't be slowed, cc'd, or broken in any way.

> > >

> > > Pirate shipping is actually not the current most effective strategy. Naval ramming is the most effective. You "pirate ship" around for the first 5-6 seconds of an engagement to soften them up and then ram full force into their group from one side or the other. A group stacked in Firebrands/Spellbreakers will still always beat a group stacked in scourges if lead correctly.

> >

> > That is not how pirate ship works on this game, u simple cant get in melee due the massive aoe spam as self counter to melee group entering in close combat, theres the 111 cleave spam, aoes, no matter even avoiding the redcircles u will be "tackled, condi spammed" while even no one is targeting u directly,

> >

> > GW2 is a game to carry its pve players on other envirotments...

> >

> >

> >

>

> It's cool, don't believe me.

> I honestly could care less if you believe it or not.

>

> The fact is: that's how it works in T1/2 at this time. All of the competitive guild groups are doing pretty much exactly what I describe to great effect. You bait out the bomb, then counterbomb and finally circle to the left and right to ram into then through them. "Pirate Ship Scourge" has some very, very easily exploitable weaknesses.

 

1 or 2 guilds with pre combined build stacking and ktraining does not make the entire game..

i KNOW exectly as well what to do in group enviroment, but that does not defive every one does it as well, whe criticizing somehitng u cant see only for your bidings u need to see the game from the 1 to the last tier.

 

And guild groups are nothing less than stack what is stronger, Scourges, spellbreakers and spambrands.

If a server end witlh less spam due most WvW dont end with the new lame must buys kewl kid gimmick that server is a bit of a problem as well.

 

Im actually from a small server and theres alot of players with core or hot only.

[GottFaust.5297]

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

> > @GottFaust.5297 said:

> > > @Aeolus.3615 said:

> > > > @GottFaust.5297 said:

> > > > > @XenesisII.1540 said:

> > > > > > @Shadowresli.3782 said:

> > > > > > can someone explain to me, why pirate ship is so bad (or better, disliked)?

> > > > >

> > > > > Because it makes half the classes useless?

> > > > > Melee classes aren't going to push when they get completely boon stripped or boon corrupted, cc'd and then bombed hard on.

> > > > > You end up with 20 min standstills of people just throwing red circles into the empty area between them, not exactly "fun".

> > > >

> > > > Boonball makes the other half useless. Range is useless when there's an invulnerable ball of boonstacked melee destroying literally everything in its path that can't be slowed, cc'd, or broken in any way.

> > > >

> > > > Pirate shipping is actually not the current most effective strategy. Naval ramming is the most effective. You "pirate ship" around for the first 5-6 seconds of an engagement to soften them up and then ram full force into their group from one side or the other. A group stacked in Firebrands/Spellbreakers will still always beat a group stacked in scourges if lead correctly.

> > >

> > > That is not how pirate ship works on this game, u simple cant get in melee due the massive aoe spam as self counter to melee group entering in close combat, theres the 111 cleave spam, aoes, no matter even avoiding the redcircles u will be "tackled, condi spammed" while even no one is targeting u directly,

> > >

> > > GW2 is a game to carry its pve players on other envirotments...

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > It's cool, don't believe me.

> > I honestly could care less if you believe it or not.

> >

> > The fact is: that's how it works in T1/2 at this time. All of the competitive guild groups are doing pretty much exactly what I describe to great effect. You bait out the bomb, then counterbomb and finally circle to the left and right to ram into then through them. "Pirate Ship Scourge" has some very, very easily exploitable weaknesses.

>

> 1 or 2 guilds with pre combined build stacking and ktraining does not make the entire game..

> i KNOW exectly as well what to do in group enviroment, but that does not defive every one does it as well, whe criticizing somehitng u cant see only for your bidings u need to see the game from the 1 to the last tier.

>

> And guild groups are nothing less than stack what is stronger, Scourges, spellbreakers and spambrands.

> If a server end witlh less spam due most WvW dont end with the new lame must buys kewl kid gimmick that server is a bit of a problem as well.

>

> Im actually from a small server and theres alot of players with core or hot only.

 

There are 5 guilds on just NA-timeblock Dragonbrand+Links that do it. This isn't counting the many, many others from the rest of the T1/2 host servers and various links or the guilds populating other timeblocks on the same servers. It's not a "small elite few" that do it the way I describe. It's pretty much any and all "serious" WvW guilds. I'm speaking from experience here as I've been in both those T4 leader-less groups as well as organized groups of various types.

 

Pirate Ship Scourge is only king of "Cloud Formation" nebulous groups with no leadership to speak of.

 

Speaking to HoT vs PoF elites in the meta: Chrono, Druid, Herald, and Daredevil are all pretty much universally considered better for WvW in their respective class roles than their PoF equivalents. Renegade may creep up to or over Herald with the changes from yesterday, but that remains to be seen.

[Junkpile.7439]

> @Burnfall.9573 said:

> You're right, necromancer is breaking wvw

> (stopped by wvw and this is what we all saw, ele's 1 shotting players and zerges everywhere)

> by the time they nearly wiped out the zerges, no necromancer were found alive

> **Absolutely! None**

>

> I will tell you what is breaking WvW,

> **The Continual Refusal To Deal With The Root Cause Of WvW**

>

>

To be fair he would kill 20 dudes alone if he would play condi scourge. I tested that weaver build in PvE and it was very weak compared trailblazer scourge.

[Svarty.8019]

> @gmmg.9210 said:

> "The reaper specialization from Heart of Thorns™ is seeing a few significant changes in this update, primarily centered around Reaper's Shroud. We drastically increased the damage of all shroud attacks while simultaneously increasing the rate at which life force is lost while in shroud."

>

> Glad to see the HoT Reaper get some changes

Reaper is DEAD. If you see any knocking about they are weak as all hell. Happy hunting.

[Inso.2195]

> @Svarty.8019 said:

> Reaper is DEAD. If you see any knocking about they are weak as all hell. Happy hunting.

 

I just met a Reaper in WwW today, he walk funny, look funny and die in funny way

[Justine.6351]

Scourge doesn't need a nerf too much, the reason its so prominent is because anyone with 2 hands can play it and be quite effective. And so zergs have all the pugs run scourge as a way to make up for the lack of any skill.

 

It was going the same way with reaper, I tried to warn but all I got was backtalk about not knowing what I was talking about.

[coglin.1496]

> @Justine.6351 said:

> Scourge doesn't need a nerf too much, the reason its so prominent is because anyone with 2 hands can play it and be quite effective. And so zergs have all the pugs run scourge as a way to make up for the lack of any skill.

 

Wait, what..........a necro main here demanding their profession is not particularly strong.....say it ain't so.....

 

> It was going the same way with reaper, I tried to warn but all I got was backtalk about not knowing what I was talking about.

 

Well, to be fair, you didn't.

 

> @Coldtart.4785 said:

> Pirate ship is solely because of winds of disenchantment. Scourge is actually really bad at just about everything wvw related but people have managed to convince themselves that it's the cause of all the world's ills.

 

This seems so out of touch with the reality of the situation, I genuinely wonder if you have even stepped foot in WvW in the last few months.> @XenesisII.1540 said:

> > @Shadowresli.3782 said:

> > can someone explain to me, why pirate ship is so bad (or better, disliked)?

>

> Because it makes half the classes useless?

 

How so? Do you mean professions or elite specs?

 

> Melee classes aren't going to push when they get completely boon stripped or boon corrupted, cc'd and then bombed hard on.

 

I am not certain you understand how the game works. there are no dedicated melee professions. There is only specific mele builds within each profession.

 

 

 

 

[Roxanne.6140]

The real kings of pirate ships are zerker hammer revs. have you all Not been playing the game?

[Kaiser.9873]

> @GottFaust.5297 said:

> > @Miyafuji.1340 said:

> > None is invulnerable as the boons can be ripped easily and the moment your stab and resistance is ripped you die instantly to the necro blob. The issue if the necro blobs is how they stack with numbers. If you have one, it suxx, if you have 5, easily beatable range pressure, you have 10, balanced, you have 40 = If they are at least semi competent they one-shot everything that gets in range. The melee kitten in my opinion work only against weak and incompetent enemies, the good ones will save the big stuff for the moment you push and they will just carpetbomb you and you have no real chance. Maybe you can get in if you get lucky spellbreaker incursion and you all dodge perfectly but its not gonna happen. Never seen it happen.

> >

> > 99% Of instant large group wipes Iv seen lately have been either the group pushing in to another that had overwhelming number of necros, or pushed straight in to enemy spellbreaker bubble. Sure there have been some melee pushes that wiped the enemy, but when it worked it was mostly completely incompetent enemy that did not press any skills.

>

> I'm getting the feeling we're playing in completely different tiers on completely different server groups.

>

> On NA T1/2 pretty much every competitive fight is ended by the group that manages to push into and through the enemy after baiting their condi bomb. Yes: if you waltz directly into 40+ scourge bombs you'll get annihilated. The thing is: no one actually does that. You bait it out, then circle around it and hit them from the side with your ram. The only time I've seen what you described there is T4 "cloud formation" pub groups without a competent commander or none what-so-ever. They all just sit in these spread out blob/lines and throw circles in the gulf between themselves and the other group(s). Groups like that last mere seconds against any competitive guild group doing what I described earlier. Firebrand and Spellbreaker are the kings of the current state of WvW.

 

Don't destroy the illusion du jour that Scourge is the bane of WvW. Nevermind that you see fewer Scourges now than 2 weeks ago. Nevermind the nerfs already put in place.

[Zero.3871]

hmm, i looked at scourge and i still dont find:

-blocks

-invuls

-stability

-invis

-mobility

 

like all the other classes have. if you dont use it to fight against scourge its your l2p issue.

 

scourges in wvw are NOTHING without firebrands,eles, revs which carry them heavily.

necro is a dmg dealer, thats the reason you get dmg from him(yes, its so simple). but scourge without firebrand get perma stunned and die, because of massive lack of sustain mechanics... most zergs i see include 40% firebrands/guards. thats the biggest part of every zerg.

 

[Aeolus.3615]

> @Zero.3871 said:

> hmm, i looked at scourge and i still dont find:

> -blocks

> -invuls

> -stability

> -invis

> -mobility

>

> like all the other classes have. if you dont use it to fight against scourge its your l2p issue.

>

> scourges in wvw are NOTHING without firebrands,eles, revs which carry them heavily.

> necro is a dmg dealer, thats the reason you get dmg from him(yes, its so simple). but scourge without firebrand get perma stunned and die, because of massive lack of sustain mechanics... most zergs i see include 40% firebrands/guards. thats the biggest part of every zerg.

>

 

well i think the sustain mechanics more like a gimmicks, stacks resistance max possible and cover it with tons of boon spamming.

 

its ugly :scream:

[XenesisII.1540]

> @coglin.1496 said:

> I am not certain you understand how the game works. there are no dedicated melee professions. There is only specific mele builds within each profession.

 

No kidding sherlock.

Do you understand the discussion going on here?

 

[Cerby.1069]

> @Coldtart.4785 said:

> Pirate ship is solely because of winds of disenchantment. Scourge is actually really bad at just about everything wvw related but people have managed to convince themselves that it's the cause of all the world's ills.

 

Or maybe its just a case of one person who doesn't know what they are talking about? maybe

[Burnfall.9573]

> @Junkpile.7439 said:

> > @Burnfall.9573 said:

> > You're right, necromancer is breaking wvw

> > (stopped by wvw and this is what we all saw, ele's 1 shotting players and zerges everywhere)

> > by the time they nearly wiped out the zerges, no necromancer were found alive

> > **Absolutely! None**

> >

> > I will tell you what is breaking WvW,

> > **The Continual Refusal To Deal With The Root Cause Of WvW**

> >

> >

> To be fair he would kill 20 dudes alone if he would play condi scourge. I tested that weaver build in PvE and it was very weak compared trailblazer scourge.

 

I tested it in wvw and pvp: i was able to 1 shot more than 1 players including Necromancer. What completely blew me always is having players accusing me of exploiting and hacking. Talk about ignoring the core problem of wvw+pvp lol

 

So Anet buffs Necromancer yet ignoring one of gw2 crucial core problems>1 shotting??

 

Not only their Favorite Classes: Thief+Mesmer can already 1 shot players: they reintroduce and included 1 shot Elementalist into their balance philosophy. Not only that, Anet took 1 shotting even further by making Elementalist 1 shot more than 1 players at the same time.

 

**UNBELIEVABLE!!**

 

What competitive game company would dare allow this incompetent balance design in their game?

 

(When Necromancer make it into the list of 1 shotting, let me know)

 

Until than,

 

**Off to Gw2 competitors' with more gw2 former players including more new players. Gw2 Competitors who prioritize and take healthy, fun, mechanical skill Input with Risk+Reward and challenge into their game seriously**

 

-- **MAKING EXCLUSIONS, EXCEPTIONS, SHOWING FAVORITISM AND IGNORING CORE PROBLEMS, ARE WHAT WILL TAKE GW2 QUICKLY INTO ITS OWN GRAVE**

 

**COMPETITOR"S AWAITS WITH SOLUTIONS**

[CrimeMaker.8612]

Scourge is not breaking WvW. You know what breaks WvW? when people run around with perma boon uptime and just ball around the map which is no fun. Spellbreaker bubble and scourge actually gave smaller guilds decent tools to work with now and bring back zerg busting which was the backbone of fight guilds back in the days. Scourges already got nerfed quite a bit. Scourge damage isnt that crazy its the corrupts but you need the corrupts because the boonshare HoT brought was too crazy and needed a solution hence Spell bubble and scourge.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @Burnfall.9573 said:

> > @Junkpile.7439 said:

> > > @Burnfall.9573 said:

> > > You're right, necromancer is breaking wvw

> > > (stopped by wvw and this is what we all saw, ele's 1 shotting players and zerges everywhere)

> > > by the time they nearly wiped out the zerges, no necromancer were found alive

> > > **Absolutely! None**

> > >

> > > I will tell you what is breaking WvW,

> > > **The Continual Refusal To Deal With The Root Cause Of WvW**

> > >

> > >

> > To be fair he would kill 20 dudes alone if he would play condi scourge. I tested that weaver build in PvE and it was very weak compared trailblazer scourge.

>

> I tested it in wvw and pvp: i was able to 1 shot more than 1 players including Necromancer. What completely blew me always is having players accusing me of exploiting and hacking. Talk about ignoring the core problem of wvw+pvp lol

>

> So Anet buffs Necromancer yet ignoring one of gw2 crucial core problems>1 shotting??

>

> Not only their Favorite Classes: Thief+Mesmer can already 1 shot players: they reintroduce and included 1 shot Elementalist into their balance philosophy. Not only that, Anet took 1 shotting even further by making Elementalist 1 shot more than 1 players at the same time.

>

> **UNBELIEVABLE!!**

>

> What competitive game company would dare allow this incompetent balance design in their game?

>

> (When Necromancer make it into the list of 1 shotting, let me know)

>

> Until than,

>

> **Off to Gw2 competitors' with more gw2 former players including more new players. Gw2 Competitors who prioritize and take healthy, fun, mechanical skill Input with Risk+Reward and challenge into their game seriously**

>

> -- **MAKING EXCLUSIONS, EXCEPTIONS, SHOWING FAVORITISM AND IGNORING CORE PROBLEMS, ARE WHAT WILL TAKE GW2 QUICKLY INTO ITS OWN GRAVE**

>

> **COMPETITOR"S AWAITS WITH SOLUTIONS**

 

*waves*

 

Seriously though, have fun. This game evidently is frustrating and maddening to you. Don't play it. Leave it for a few months. See if it improves.

 

It isn't going back to pre HoT anytime (or anytime soon.)

 

 

[Esprit Dumort.3109]

Scourge is a high risk high reward class. With little to no mobility, stability, or teleports, the class does heavy damage and counters the high boon spam, and relying on the support from the team. In addition, the Shades are static and a highly mobile zerg can easily avoid the Sand Shades.

 

OP, you didn't even explain why you think Scourge is game breaking in WvW, but make claims that it is. Please detail why you think so.

[Coldtart.4785]

What do you think scourge can do in a pirate ship meta? How do you plan on getting to 900 range and putting a shade on someone when you can be bombed the moment you reach 1200? The only thing scourge has going for it is its boonstrip, which is utterly obsoleted by spellbreaker. If you're getting killed by scourges at all you need to stop pretending that melee still exists in wvw and get pirate shipping. A full shade bomb isn't even as much damage as a single CoR, which does its damage instantly.

[ilmau.9781]

> @Burnfall.9573 said:

> > @Junkpile.7439 said:

> > > @Burnfall.9573 said:

> > > You're right, necromancer is breaking wvw

> > > (stopped by wvw and this is what we all saw, ele's 1 shotting players and zerges everywhere)

> > > by the time they nearly wiped out the zerges, no necromancer were found alive

> > > **Absolutely! None**

> > >

> > > I will tell you what is breaking WvW,

> > > **The Continual Refusal To Deal With The Root Cause Of WvW**

> > >

> > >

> > To be fair he would kill 20 dudes alone if he would play condi scourge. I tested that weaver build in PvE and it was very weak compared trailblazer scourge.

>

> I tested it in wvw and pvp: i was able to 1 shot more than 1 players including Necromancer. What completely blew me always is having players accusing me of exploiting and hacking. Talk about ignoring the core problem of wvw+pvp lol

>

> So Anet buffs Necromancer yet ignoring one of gw2 crucial core problems>1 shotting??

>

> Not only their Favorite Classes: Thief+Mesmer can already 1 shot players: they reintroduce and included 1 shot Elementalist into their balance philosophy. Not only that, Anet took 1 shotting even further by making Elementalist 1 shot more than 1 players at the same time.

>

> **UNBELIEVABLE!!**

>

> What competitive game company would dare allow this incompetent balance design in their game?

>

> (When Necromancer make it into the list of 1 shotting, let me know)

>

> Until than,

>

> **Off to Gw2 competitors' with more gw2 former players including more new players. Gw2 Competitors who prioritize and take healthy, fun, mechanical skill Input with Risk+Reward and challenge into their game seriously**

>

> -- **MAKING EXCLUSIONS, EXCEPTIONS, SHOWING FAVORITISM AND IGNORING CORE PROBLEMS, ARE WHAT WILL TAKE GW2 QUICKLY INTO ITS OWN GRAVE**

>

> **COMPETITOR"S AWAITS WITH SOLUTIONS**

 

[Cerby.1069]

> @"Esprit Dumort.3109" said:

> Scourge is a high risk high reward class. With little to no mobility, stability, or teleports, the class does heavy damage and counters the high boon spam, and relying on the support from the team. In addition, the Shades are static and a highly mobile zerg can easily avoid the Sand Shades.

>

> OP, you didn't even explain why you think Scourge is game breaking in WvW, but make claims that it is. Please detail why you think so.

 

You have to be a pirate ship to counter scourge atm, that's where the problem lies as others have stated. SOme people sseeee that as a problem, some people dont. thus the discussion.

 

 

And in terms of utilizing the shades.....there are plenty of ways to do this. Just cause ur generic zerg always holds the w key all the time doesn't mean its not powerful.

 

I don't think its really apt to call them high risk high reward without a disclaimer. If you are in a group larger than ur opponent...there is no risk, just high reward with sourge. The only times you have risk is when being hunted by a super large group that would run over anyone or when you get isolated from ur own group and ganged on. I mean...these are thing all classes have to deal with though, you won't find much sympathy.

 

If they died when you finally killed them I wouldn't care. Just all t hey do is run towards you and go into downed state erecting a giant fortress of aoe around themselves. So you just sit there and try to pirate ship their downed state down, but if any ally comes they are at a HUGE advantage over you unless you can do heavy aoe attacks of your own. This is what makes them so stupidly powerful in zergs, the ability to function so well as a group when they are in downed state. You can double or triple their damage and tank for all I care! Their suicidal run forward while being killed strategy is just dumb......dumb because its the most effective way to use them.

[gmmg.9210]

> @"Esprit Dumort.3109" said:

> Scourge is a high risk high reward class. With little to no mobility, stability, or teleports, the class does heavy damage and counters the high boon spam, and relying on the support from the team. In addition, the Shades are static and a highly mobile zerg can easily avoid the Sand Shades.

>

> OP, you didn't even explain why you think Scourge is game breaking in WvW, but make claims that it is. Please detail why you think so.

 

Here's why:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scourge_-_Condition_Scourge

It pretty much speaks for itself. Unload such an unbelievable amount of condi bombs that no one can withstand them.This build and those like it are breaking the balance in WvW

[Justine.6351]

> @Coldtart.4785 said:

> What do you think scourge can do in a pirate ship meta? How do you plan on getting to 900 range and putting a shade on someone when you can be bombed the moment you reach 1200? The only thing scourge has going for it is its boonstrip, which is utterly obsoleted by spellbreaker. If you're getting killed by scourges at all you need to stop pretending that melee still exists in wvw and get pirate shipping. A full shade bomb isn't even as much damage as a single CoR, which does its damage instantly.

 

No one cares about scourge damage. They care about losing all boons and having all conditions because the people who picked up the game yesterday learned from other average players how to press f1-f5 simultaneously.

 

If there were half as many necromancers and scourge shade skills had a global cooldown people wouldn't be half as moody about the current wvw scene. Scourge ratio is both the cause and symptom of an extremely rewarding and easy to play build.

[SWI.4127]

> @Roxanne.6140 said:

> The real kings of pirate ships are zerker hammer revs. have you all Not been playing the game?

 

Somehow still flying under the nerf radar

[Justine.6351]

> @SWI.4127 said:

> > @Roxanne.6140 said:

> > The real kings of pirate ships are zerker hammer revs. have you all Not been playing the game?

>

> Somehow still flying under the nerf radar

 

Amusing considering hammer rev would do -40% damage if scourges wernt corrupting protection and even less damage if your scourges were corrupting enemy rev's might into weakness.