Why hasnt Scourge been nerfed yet?

[GottFaust.5297]

> @Coldtart.4785 said:

> Is this the new thread where we stand in red circles, don't use resistance, stability, stun breaks or condi clears and don't dodge then blame op scourges for our loss? Unless you're massively outnumbered or your firebrands don't know how to play you should not be losing to scourges.

 

This. Exactly this.

Good movement and Firebrands are the hard-counter to scourges in zergs.

Scourge in small groups should be self evident.

[juno.1840]

> @Coolguy.8702 said:

> > @"X T D.6458" said:

> > Scourge already got nerfed hard twice in recent updates. Scourge is most powerful when there are groups of them, to maximize boon corruption and barriers. Scourge and Spellbreaker are designed to directly combat the heavy boon spam that came with HoT elite specs, so it is essential that Scourge has this ability. Also scourge does not rely on any specific high damage skill, you basically need to spam your skills to do enough damage, this leaves you drained of life force. Also Torment and burning are the main conditions that a Scourge can inflict, the rest come from core weapon skills and traits. The torment and burning also have low base durations.

>

> Thats a load of kitten, try standing in 1 of their shades and you'll notice at least 8 kinds of condis on you in a second. Also what you dont understand is scourge is way more broken in wvw then everywhere else cause they gain a ton of lifeforce from deaths and theres tons of deathsin zerg fights so they'll *never* be low on life force. Yea HoT had too much boon spam but getting all of your boons corrupted faster than you can reaply isnt fun for anybody. At least spellbreaker is mainly just their elite which is balanced cause it only removes boons and its on a long cd as well. Also scourge didnt even get touched this last balance patch

 

You probably received those conditions because you had a lot of boons and those boons were corrupted into conditions. It's not broken -- that's how it works.

 

Honestly it's time to adapt because boon-corruption is the new meta (and that's not just Scourge).

[intox.6347]

> @coro.3176 said:

>

>

> Example.

>

> Instant 8 condi just for being near melee range of a scourge. There's basically no way to avoid that other than "don't get within x units of a scourge" and that makes for unfun gameplay, which is what people are complaining about in this thread.

>

> Why is an instant pbaoe (bombing with EIGHT conditions and corrupting boons) more deadly than a huge slow wind up attack like Executioner's Scythe?

 

As i see you appear in enemy backline... in time when scourges put some shades... also start spamming Fspam, u have been in range of self shade spam.. so u eat it atleast from 2 scourges ( i saw 4 of them) . Scourge is not strongest range... but its easy one to play ... so easy pick for pvers, newbies or lazy ppl.

 

Also i will not go into big group fights with roaming zerk holo build.. u cant take much in that ...

 

Im playing mostly wvw (80% of time) and after nerf number of scourges is lowered... im now playing more hammer backline rev... CoR build... that dmg u doing to scourges is too big for them to sustain...

Also SB after nerf still strong... resistence and WoD .....

And when i watched some videos from chinese wvw... they playing full range... they have in each party like 25+ hammer revs and just range bombing :D

[Hansen.3264]

> @Crossaber.8934 said:

> It is because Anet still doesn't figure out a way to reserve scourge pve power without ruining every pvp and wvw players' lives. And PvE got a much larger player pool, so to speak.

 

Seperate wvw/spvp from PVE and alot off issusse/problems with ballance can be solved in minuts

[ArchonWing.9480]

The excuse, is always, that balance is handled by one team that does everything, because there aren't enough resources and it's been clear that all its done by halfheartedly balancing for 3 modes is ruining all 3 modes. But because making this excuse is cheaper than anything else, this is why balance will always be a joke.

 

There are most certainly employees that know what is going on. They do play WvW, and in fact have been on teamspeak with the people they run. But they cannot do anything about this, due to the above.

[davidiven.9408]

I admit I hate the condi spam, but scourge right now are getting deleted from 1200 range

[intox.6347]

> @davidiven.9408 said:

> I admit I hate the condi spam, but scourge right now are getting deleted from 1200 range

yop, im running power rev CoR hammer build.... and its countering scourge like nothing else.... range bombs on 1200, i think its now best backline dps, 10-17k hit with CoR no problem, spammable :D

 

 

[Aeolus.3615]

Issue with scourge is how ANet want to carry pve players on pvp ambient, with damage the output, being based on condi bursts or raw damage.

 

Damage output values are stupid high, low effort builds mostly with so much easy access to high crits... reason i dont like to play my rev hammer zerker :S it felt stupid, hammering with close to 250 crit aoe from afar...

 

 

 

lack of quality from ANet....

 

 

 

[X T D.6458]

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

> Issue with scourge is how ANet want to carry pve players on pvp ambient, with damage the output, being based on condi bursts or raw damage.

>

> Damage output values are stupid high, low effort builds mostly with so much easy access to high crits... reason i dont like to play my rev hammer zerker :S it felt stupid.

>

>

>

> lack of quality from ANet....

>

>

>

 

It is a little different though when comparing the two. Revenant mainly relies on a high damage, low cd aoe range skill. Scourge needs to use multiple skills at once to do enough damage, you just wont get that kind of burst from one skill. I am not a fan of the condi meta, never have been. But I have always hated the boonspam meta as well, and I like that there is finally some counter to it.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"X T D.6458" said:

> > @Aeolus.3615 said:

> > Issue with scourge is how ANet want to carry pve players on pvp ambient, with damage the output, being based on condi bursts or raw damage.

> >

> > Damage output values are stupid high, low effort builds mostly with so much easy access to high crits... reason i dont like to play my rev hammer zerker :S it felt stupid.

> >

> >

> >

> > lack of quality from ANet....

> >

> >

> >

>

> It is a little different though when comparing the two. Revenant mainly relies on a high damage, low cd aoe range skill. Scourge needs to use multiple skills at once to do enough damage, you just wont get that kind of burst from one skill. I am not a fan of the condi meta, never have been. But I have always hated the boonspam meta as well, and I like that there is finally some counter to it.

 

indeed... pitty Anet tryes to solve both with more broken stuff like resistence or tons of boon corruption... :\

 

on my Dh, as stupid this might sound i stoped using stun breakers and stability, due how the stun spam happens and how useless stability has become, due the amount of boon negation and some trough unblockables/domes..

 

Even the guardian domes abosrving the damage the conditions on some skill pass trough... Ç_Ç

 

Anet NEED to revert some skills and condis to hexes -.- and make resistance a effect with a limited fixed duration to avoid hex casting, like spell breaker was on gw1.

[Jski.6180]

Scourge has a few problems with it that need to be address and its going to be painful to do it.

 

Scourge are to tankly. As a necro it should be just as tankly as its life force but because of scourge not "whereing" its mana like pool its able to keep barrier on it self with out giving up its cast much like a core necor dose or reaper. This lets the scourge get heal by there team mate at all times and still have a cover over tool to hid there hp from attks.

 

Scourge gets to many effects out side of its soul effects. Scourge should have a small pipeline to getting its stronger effects out necor core and reaper had this due to there DS going on cd and scourge should get this on there soul pets but due to a scourge getting an aoe hit from them self lets scourge bypass this balancing effect that you see on the other necro classes.

 

There more but these effects i think are the most that makes scourge the end all be all class in pvp settings (most wvw pvp for me).

 

[X T D.6458]

> @Aeolus.3615 said:

> > @"X T D.6458" said:

> > > @Aeolus.3615 said:

> > > Issue with scourge is how ANet want to carry pve players on pvp ambient, with damage the output, being based on condi bursts or raw damage.

> > >

> > > Damage output values are stupid high, low effort builds mostly with so much easy access to high crits... reason i dont like to play my rev hammer zerker :S it felt stupid.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > lack of quality from ANet....

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > It is a little different though when comparing the two. Revenant mainly relies on a high damage, low cd aoe range skill. Scourge needs to use multiple skills at once to do enough damage, you just wont get that kind of burst from one skill. I am not a fan of the condi meta, never have been. But I have always hated the boonspam meta as well, and I like that there is finally some counter to it.

>

> indeed... pitty Anet tryes to solve both with more broken stuff like resistence or tons of boon corruption... :\

 

The problem is the rate of spamming of conditions and boons, that is what needs to be toned down. I am skeptical of adding too much resistance to the game, or making it too available. It is a very powerful boon that makes all conditions have no effect on you, great as that sounds, it completely negates a lot of builds. More reliance on cleanses would be beneficial for groups. Another thing they can do is use the Ammunition system for underpowered cleanse skills to make them more like Mantra of Lore.

 

Stability is the real issue here, I am not opposed to making it an effect rather then having it be a boon, but this would require completely reworking it, as well as taking a look at all skills/traits that grant it, and I don't see that ever happening. Stun Breaks need to be updated, because there is just so much cc spam across game modes that stun breaks become almost useless. They should all grant like a stack of stability when breaking stuns so you can't just be immediately cc'ed again.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

Anet loves condi and they are clueless when it comes to balance. They'll change things, but the condi love and unbalanced play will remain.

[Krypto.2069]

For a while now, the most pertinent rule to live by in WvW:

 

You see a fucking JOKO on the battlefield, **YOU KILL IT!** _NO MERCY!_

 

Not 2nd, not 3rd, not 4th...

**PUBLIC ENEMY #1!**

 

I'm so tired of pirate shipping and/or circle dancing. :-1:

[juno.1840]

> @Jski.6180 said:

> Scourge has a few problems with it that need to be address and its going to be painful to do it.

>

> Scourge are to tankly. As a necro it should be just as tankly as its life force but because of scourge not "whereing" its mana like pool its able to keep barrier on it self with out giving up its cast much like a core necor dose or reaper. This lets the scourge get heal by there team mate at all times and still have a cover over tool to hid there hp from attks.

 

The gear makes the condi-build tanky. Technically the scourge is a less tanky due to loss of Death/Reaper's shroud. Yeah there's a barrier but that's a weak replacement for shroud. It's a trade-off for having the shades available all the time.

 

[Swamurabi.7890]

> @Krypto.2069 said:

> For a while now, the most pertinent rule to live by in WvW:

>

> You see a kitten JOKO on the battlefield, **YOU KILL IT!** _NO MERCY!_

>

> Not 2nd, not 3rd, not 4th...

> **PUBLIC ENEMY #1!**

>

> I'm so tired of pirate shipping and/or circle dancing. :-1:

 

Same meta that's been in sPvP since the beginning, FOCUS THE NECRO, except now it's FOCUS THE NECRO AT RANGE.

[Solori.6025]

> @juno.1840 said:

> > @Jski.6180 said:

> > Scourge has a few problems with it that need to be address and its going to be painful to do it.

> >

> > Scourge are to tankly. As a necro it should be just as tankly as its life force but because of scourge not "whereing" its mana like pool its able to keep barrier on it self with out giving up its cast much like a core necor dose or reaper. This lets the scourge get heal by there team mate at all times and still have a cover over tool to hid there hp from attks.

>

> The gear makes the condi-build tanky. Technically the scourge is a less tanky due to loss of Death/Reaper's shroud. Yeah there's a barrier but that's a weak replacement for shroud. It's a trade-off for having the shades available all the time.

>

 

This^

 

Problem starts back when they introduced Dire gear and Traiblazer for condi classes.

 

One of two things will need to happen.

Lower the amount of conditions put on a player per second,

Or change the condi+toughness gear to something else.

 

The introduction of tank gear and burst condi's ( which shouldn't exist ever) was a long term ,horrible mistake and hopefully they correct it sooner rather than later.

How long has the condi meta been going on now? 2 years? 3?

[DeadlySynz.3471]

No nerf needed; what needs to be nerfed is 100% uptime to condition immunity. Also, the LoS obstructed message now attached to the shades for even a slight terrain differential needs to be fixed as well.

 

I keep telling people, go jump on a ranger or deadeye and tear the scourges a new one, it's just that easy. If players or groups are unwilling to utilize these classes against them, that is their own problem.

 

I hadn't played my ranger in nearly a year, but decided to jump on mine to give enemy scourges some grief. It was perfect, as we were outnumbered anyway so why not make a few enemy players lives miserable and prove a point in the process. Scourge after scourge after scourge decimated; absolutely no defense against range classes, notta, none, zilch. On average one would last less than 7 seconds, even when barrier was activated. Zerg would retreat once all their scourges dead. It came to the point where their scourges now were relegated to the back line completely incapacitated. Still weren't safe, still were in range, and still were getting mowed down.

 

It's not that hard people. If you are complaining about Scourges, it's a L2P issue and an extreme one at that.

[Kyon.9735]

> @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

 

> I hadn't played my ranger in nearly a year, but decided to jump on mine to give enemy scourges some grief. It was perfect, as we were outnumbered anyway so why not make a few enemy players lives miserable and prove a point in the process. Scourge after scourge after scourge decimated; absolutely no defense against range classes, notta, none, zilch. On average one would last less than 7 seconds, even when barrier was activated. Zerg would retreat once all their scourges dead. It came to the point where their scourges now were relegated to the back line completely incapacitated. Still weren't safe, still were in range, and still were getting mowed down.

 

So basically pirate ship meta?

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @Kyon.9735 said:

> > @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

>

> > I hadn't played my ranger in nearly a year, but decided to jump on mine to give enemy scourges some grief. It was perfect, as we were outnumbered anyway so why not make a few enemy players lives miserable and prove a point in the process. Scourge after scourge after scourge decimated; absolutely no defense against range classes, notta, none, zilch. On average one would last less than 7 seconds, even when barrier was activated. Zerg would retreat once all their scourges dead. It came to the point where their scourges now were relegated to the back line completely incapacitated. Still weren't safe, still were in range, and still were getting mowed down.

>

> So basically pirate ship meta?

 

You might say that. You might say an inability to adjust.

 

Commanders don't want rangers. Well.., they might actually have a place. Just in a different kind of support role.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

> @Kyon.9735 said:

> > @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

>

> > I hadn't played my ranger in nearly a year, but decided to jump on mine to give enemy scourges some grief. It was perfect, as we were outnumbered anyway so why not make a few enemy players lives miserable and prove a point in the process. Scourge after scourge after scourge decimated; absolutely no defense against range classes, notta, none, zilch. On average one would last less than 7 seconds, even when barrier was activated. Zerg would retreat once all their scourges dead. It came to the point where their scourges now were relegated to the back line completely incapacitated. Still weren't safe, still were in range, and still were getting mowed down.

>

> So basically pirate ship meta?

 

Which is more interesting that melee ball/boon meta. There was no counter for that, it was both wrong and boring. At least now there is a hard counter to that, but with the addition, once the hard counters are eliminated, players can freely ball up again in melee and run in. The play is far more dynamic now but players are unwilling to adapt and utilize the classes for what they are meant for.

 

It comes down to players stuck in their old ways of wanting to run around with endless stability and boons with impunity pressing 1. But I get it, not everybody wants to play ranged classes, but not everybody also wants to play melee classes. The beauty of PvP and WvW is you can have a comp of different classes, but some groups/commanders don't want any part of certain classes. Frankly that's there problem.

 

My example above was me doing it. I didn't recall any other rangers or deadeyes around, and we were outnumbered at least 2 to 1. I had zero issues rendering the enemy scourges useless, and I believe there was at least 7 of them. 7 rendered useless by 1 ranger.. think about it...

 

 

[Tongku.5326]

Having played necro since the game launched off and on as main in all game modes, I feel like A-Net shot themselves in the foot with the scourge. The way they made it is indeed extremely hard to balance.

 

If you actually build for full support, then the whole class/spec becomes irrelevant due to how much better the other support classes are. The only thing that keeps it afloat is barrier stacking from multiple scourges, but that becomes less relevant the smaller scale things get.

 

Also, the barrier + shades are not good defensive replacements for shroud. They kinda suck in this regard. Shroud was already kinda sucky when compared with stealth, invulns, evade spam, etc. All it was is just an additional health sponge with occasional stunbreak if traited at expanse of offense. The scourge mechanics are much worse.

 

So the scourge is basically a one trick pony, its corrupt / condi spam / barrier stack or nothing. They can't fully nerf this or as noted above it will become ineffective vs boonspam and the overall DPS output will become too greatly reduced.

 

And they can't really nerf barriers anymore, they're already bad the less stacking there is. They could actually buff the base barrier, but reduce number of targets or give the barriers diminishing returns per target affected.

 

I think they really do need to go back to the drawing board on this. Provide necros / scourges with some better defenses then nerf some of the offense. All done so that it doesn't become too OP when stacked while being decent in solo or small scale.

[Galmac.4680]

Then also "fix" condi-mesmer, condi-revs, condi-warriors, condi-thiefs etc... But we all know that won't happen, ANet loves conditons.

[Loki.7690]

Oh dear,

Ok guys, you know that marks and shades are static yes? You can GET OUT OF RED CIRCLE, dodge, leap, tp etc. Necro still have worse mobility in the game, he won't chase you or won't run away, only in some rare situations. About condi, if you take out condi dmg while running for example trailblazer gear, necro stays with NOTHING, no dmg at all. Moreover scourges DS don't works the same way as reaper's or core necro, we don't get pool of life force but a barrier which drains a lot faster than DS. Condi dmg is slower than power dmg, so we need more time do get nice numbers. Some one already said, 1200 range is good for wrecking scourges, so pls stop whining and think when you fight.

[SWI.4127]

> @coro.3176 said:

>

>

> Example.

>

> Instant 8 condi just for being near melee range of a scourge. There's basically no way to avoid that other than "don't get within x units of a scourge" and that makes for unfun gameplay, which is what people are complaining about in this thread.

>

> Why is an instant pbaoe (bombing with EIGHT conditions and corrupting boons) more deadly than a huge slow wind up attack like Executioner's Scythe?

 

It is incredibly annoying. Way too much AoE spam in WvW. The worst part is they did this *without even looking at you or knowing you were there*. This is not skill-based gameplay. This is spam. Insta-cast AoE condition spam.