Fun or Ordeal?

[Coulter.2315]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > So, which class and build are you having such a hard time with so i can showcase to you that any story content is soloable ?

>

> I'm not, I've been able to clear all the story missions on my first playthrough, in most cases with few or no checkpoint resets (occasionally more than a few, but not always the ones other players have reported). You'd have to ask the thousands of other players that struggle from time to time and dance for them. Or you could understand that they don't want that from you, they would just like to be able to beat the enemy using the build they went into the fight with, and using the skills they have in themselves.

>

> Again, it's not about you. You have no role to play in this other than to say "I understand what you want from this and hope that you get it."

 

I understand what you want from this and hope you don't get it. Here you are trying to use theoretical bad players (again) to nerf game difficulty to the lowest possible point, you tried this with raids and now you've moved on to story instances. I would rather poor players were required to learn and try than your terrible vision of a challengeless "game."

[Ashen.2907]

> @battledrone.8315 said:

> > @takatsu.9416 said:

> > The game is not a casual game. It has a good balance id say that doesn't serve either extreme. But it's not designed for casuals, you actually have to get adequate enough for relatively easy solo story content. And expansion story content is a bit harder because expansions are endgame content. It's designed for you to do after you've mastered the core game which includes things like your core dungeons and the area of Orr, world bosses etc. You should have learned the mechanics. I think the game does need a better tutorial and in game training process. But

> >

> > Right from the very start at the very basics:

> > Dodges. Dodges mean you actually have to do something when you see the red circles of death and the attacks coming. At least it also means you need to be running around and avoiding things. Just doing this and timing it alone will help you master most of the content. I find that a lot of new players from other games namely WoW are dying even while levelling because they think you can just sit and take the damage . I see ranges classes not moving when the mobs get close. This is a simple knowledge issue, maybe a bit of practice to make it a habit

> >

> > Only thing expansion really adds to the kind of damage and attacks you are exposed to in core big content, is extra CCs and conditions . This is why every class has skills with notes like breaks stun, evasion, blocks attacks, shadowstep/blink, condition cleanse, heal and more.

> >

> > This game is not intended for you to take the damage. It is an action combat system and you have to know these skills and respond.

> >

> > I solo all my content on glass DPS classes. I have no problem with surviving it because I make sure I know which skills can be used for defensive purposes and I also add skills on my utilities that usually cater around stunbreaks or damage avoidance.

> >

> > The only thing that needs practice is timing and that is something im sure everyone can master with practice and observation. Most pve content has a big wind up, you will see the attack about to come or you will see red circles and have a short window of time to move out of it.

> >

> > The game doesn't require high skill, it just requires a bit of the basic understandings of the basic combat system

> >

> > The game shouldn't be that easy or else I and many others wouldn't play it. I too am interested in the story but if we don't actually get to flex any fighting muscles or work with mechanics then we might as well just read a book or watch a movie

>

> but it was certainly advertised and sold as a casual game..."play as ýou want"...millions of sold boxes from day 1

> most of the game IS pretty casual..except those nasty story missions and the usual hardcore content

> normally devs find ways to avoid difficulty spikes..anet just revels in them

> lets see how the story progresses

 

None of the advertisements I saw, back before and after launch, said that it was a casual game.

[Mahou.3924]

"5) (This may well be a personal peeve.) There is too much reliance on gimmick mechanics. A little of this might be OK, but I would greatly prefer that crap be largely confined to raids and fractals."

 

I feel the same way. The gimmcky feeling with LS3 never left. And it makes me dread playing through it again, despite the story/LS being one of the main reason to play, in my case. LS3 last episode's final boss felt at tmes like a (toned down) bullet hell game. And I'm probably the worst and laziest player in GW2 in terms of optimizing equpiment (i.e. sigils and runes) and still a keyboard turner and clicker.

[Healix.5819]

> @battledrone.8315 said:

> but it was certainly advertised and sold as a casual game..."play as ýou want"...millions of sold boxes from day 1

 

GW2 was meant to be casual friendly in the sense that your time wasn't being wasted and you could hop in and make meaningful progress in shorter amounts of time. Play how you want simply referred to being able to level by doing practically anything, but that created the problem of people grinding Queensdale for example, which is why masteries force you to play the content. ArenaNet really needs to pick a side and either rely on vertical progression to make old content easier or revert the difficulty of the core game to its original state so it's not a bait and switch.

[Teofa Tsavo.9863]

> @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

> If there is a problem, it's that MMO's try to disguise their story elements as single player RPG's. Single player games tend to have difficulty sliders, which allow them to appeal to a wider range of player skill and desires. The MMO version is the ability to do story with other people. The problem with that is that since the MMO story is emulating the SPRPG, this generates an expectation on the part of players that they ought to be able to solo the story. RPG's are essentially selling power fantasies. Nothing puts a damper on power fantasies faster than needing other people to get through what is expected to be solo content.

>

> I don't think there's much of a cure for that. The underpinnings needed to allow for elective scaling are just not there. Maybe it would be possible to put in an option to select for number of players, then allow scaling to handle the difficulty adjustment. I don't think, though, that ANet has the time to retrofit that system for all existing story steps. Whether they could do it going forward or not, I cannot comment on.

>

> That said, GW2 story has several things I think are poor design.

>

> 1) The aforementioned penalty box in Hearts and Minds is the most egregious example. Whoever came up with that one was not in any way considering whether it was going to be fun for the player who made a mistake.

> 2) GW2 mobs in general tend to have very limited tactic "suites." This means that they tend to repeat the same tactics over and over and over. When at least one of those tactics is annoying, this results in highly annoying fights. Say one of those moves is a CC. If that's coming every few seconds, the CD's on stun breaks, stability, and avoidance (block, dodge, etc.) are too long, meaning the fight (against a mob that has a lot of health) leaves an aftertaste of annoyance rather than enjoyment.

> 3) Large pattern AoE is way too prevalent. Whether this adds difficulty or not, it certainly adds annoyance.

> 4) There are occasional PoV issues due to walls, getting trapped in morphing infrastructure, etc.

> 5) (This may well be a personal peeve.) There is too much reliance on gimmick mechanics. A little of this might be OK, but I would greatly prefer that crap be largely confined to raids and fractals.

 

Absolutely spot on. I've always felt that directed path, instanced storylines were a thin veneer for inserting a single player game. Cause consoles and the obligatory " I am the ONE"

[takatsu.9416]

> @battledrone.8315 said:

> > @takatsu.9416 said:

> > The game is not a casual game. It has a good balance id say that doesn't serve either extreme. But it's not designed for casuals, you actually have to get adequate enough for relatively easy solo story content. And expansion story content is a bit harder because expansions are endgame content. It's designed for you to do after you've mastered the core game which includes things like your core dungeons and the area of Orr, world bosses etc. You should have learned the mechanics. I think the game does need a better tutorial and in game training process. But

> >

> > Right from the very start at the very basics:

> > Dodges. Dodges mean you actually have to do something when you see the red circles of death and the attacks coming. At least it also means you need to be running around and avoiding things. Just doing this and timing it alone will help you master most of the content. I find that a lot of new players from other games namely WoW are dying even while levelling because they think you can just sit and take the damage . I see ranges classes not moving when the mobs get close. This is a simple knowledge issue, maybe a bit of practice to make it a habit

> >

> > Only thing expansion really adds to the kind of damage and attacks you are exposed to in core big content, is extra CCs and conditions . This is why every class has skills with notes like breaks stun, evasion, blocks attacks, shadowstep/blink, condition cleanse, heal and more.

> >

> > This game is not intended for you to take the damage. It is an action combat system and you have to know these skills and respond.

> >

> > I solo all my content on glass DPS classes. I have no problem with surviving it because I make sure I know which skills can be used for defensive purposes and I also add skills on my utilities that usually cater around stunbreaks or damage avoidance.

> >

> > The only thing that needs practice is timing and that is something im sure everyone can master with practice and observation. Most pve content has a big wind up, you will see the attack about to come or you will see red circles and have a short window of time to move out of it.

> >

> > The game doesn't require high skill, it just requires a bit of the basic understandings of the basic combat system

> >

> > The game shouldn't be that easy or else I and many others wouldn't play it. I too am interested in the story but if we don't actually get to flex any fighting muscles or work with mechanics then we might as well just read a book or watch a movie

>

> but it was certainly advertised and sold as a casual game..."play as ýou want"...millions of sold boxes from day 1

> most of the game IS pretty casual..except those nasty story missions and the usual hardcore content

> normally devs find ways to avoid difficulty spikes..anet just revels in them

> lets see how the story progresses

 

I think some of that is marketing ploy and yes most of the game is pretty casual, as in freedom to do what you want, you don't even have to play the actual content if you don't want to lol. The gear and levelling etc is handed to you easily. Theproblem is when people want to play all the content or most of it and say oh it's so hard. Well yes, if you want to actually do combat, you have to work with the combat system which is not designed to be simple facetank do nothing but spam attacks kind of thing. The combat is not easy mode. But sure you can craft, level, gather materials, farm simple mobs, do low level maps, explore complete maps, chat in the cities, plah with tonics and fashion, so it can be described as casual

[Haishao.6851]

> @battledrone.8315 said:

> > @takatsu.9416 said:

> > The game is not a casual game. It has a good balance id say that doesn't serve either extreme. But it's not designed for casuals, you actually have to get adequate enough for relatively easy solo story content. And expansion story content is a bit harder because expansions are endgame content. It's designed for you to do after you've mastered the core game which includes things like your core dungeons and the area of Orr, world bosses etc. You should have learned the mechanics. I think the game does need a better tutorial and in game training process. But

> >

> > Right from the very start at the very basics:

> > Dodges. Dodges mean you actually have to do something when you see the red circles of death and the attacks coming. At least it also means you need to be running around and avoiding things. Just doing this and timing it alone will help you master most of the content. I find that a lot of new players from other games namely WoW are dying even while levelling because they think you can just sit and take the damage . I see ranges classes not moving when the mobs get close. This is a simple knowledge issue, maybe a bit of practice to make it a habit

> >

> > Only thing expansion really adds to the kind of damage and attacks you are exposed to in core big content, is extra CCs and conditions . This is why every class has skills with notes like breaks stun, evasion, blocks attacks, shadowstep/blink, condition cleanse, heal and more.

> >

> > This game is not intended for you to take the damage. It is an action combat system and you have to know these skills and respond.

> >

> > I solo all my content on glass DPS classes. I have no problem with surviving it because I make sure I know which skills can be used for defensive purposes and I also add skills on my utilities that usually cater around stunbreaks or damage avoidance.

> >

> > The only thing that needs practice is timing and that is something im sure everyone can master with practice and observation. Most pve content has a big wind up, you will see the attack about to come or you will see red circles and have a short window of time to move out of it.

> >

> > The game doesn't require high skill, it just requires a bit of the basic understandings of the basic combat system

> >

> > The game shouldn't be that easy or else I and many others wouldn't play it. I too am interested in the story but if we don't actually get to flex any fighting muscles or work with mechanics then we might as well just read a book or watch a movie

>

> but it was certainly advertised and sold as a casual game..."play as ýou want"...millions of sold boxes from day 1

> most of the game IS pretty casual..except those nasty story missions and the usual hardcore content

> normally devs find ways to avoid difficulty spikes..anet just revels in them

> lets see how the story progresses

 

"Play the way you want" was always about the content you want to play. You can play only PvP, only WvW, or only PvE to get max level and the most powerful gears in the game. You can do only events if you like, you can do only dungeons if you like, You can stay in lv 1-15 zone forever if you want. The game never force you into certain content to progress. You play the way you want.

 

It was never about voluntary ineptitude.

 

[Teofa Tsavo.9863]

So many interesting ways for people to say "Get better, Scrubs". We get it. Attitude is a reason many new players (and some old) avoid group content like the plague.

[Seera.5916]

I'm a mediocre casual player. I run glass cannon elementalist/weaver JUST for the fact that it means that some instances will be hard. Because you learn more from failure than you do from success. You stop and try to figure out what you did wrong when you fail. How often does anyone stop and think how they succeeded if they did it on the first try?

 

As for the don't want to change build discussion:

 

Even single player RPG's have instances that are hard or next to impossible to do if you've got the wrong build. And you have to make adjustments to your usual playstyle to get through it. Change weapons, use more boosts, use cheap tactics, etc.

 

Who knows, the build you adjust to for the difficult fight might end up being one you enjoy more than your current one. And there's no rule that says you can't go right back to your original build after the fight.

[Conncept.7638]

Most players issues aren't with them making the game more difficult, especially since they don't do so with all content but instead with pockets of content within major releases.

 

Most players issues are with _how_ ANet makes content more 'difficult', which is generally with rigidly enforced mechanical requirements within the content that you can only comply with by knowing the mechanics beforehand, and more often than not are better dealt with by altering your build than bettering yourself as a player.

 

And their doing so has nothing to do with WoW. The devs have stated they believe in designing the game as such that it should be both teaching you to be a better player and challenging you to improve. In my opinion they are rarely successful at this, but that is their aim.

[mauried.5608]

The living stories are all based on speed, ie the fights are all too fast, and that means that if you cant mash keyboard buttons fast enough or move the mouse around fast enough, then you will die REGARDLESS of what build you have or what gear you have .

 

[Nemmar.8491]

> @"Teofa Tsavo.9863" said:

> > @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

> > If there is a problem, it's that MMO's try to disguise their story elements as single player RPG's. Single player games tend to have difficulty sliders, which allow them to appeal to a wider range of player skill and desires. The MMO version is the ability to do story with other people. The problem with that is that since the MMO story is emulating the SPRPG, this generates an expectation on the part of players that they ought to be able to solo the story. RPG's are essentially selling power fantasies. Nothing puts a damper on power fantasies faster than needing other people to get through what is expected to be solo content.

> >

> > I don't think there's much of a cure for that. The underpinnings needed to allow for elective scaling are just not there. Maybe it would be possible to put in an option to select for number of players, then allow scaling to handle the difficulty adjustment. I don't think, though, that ANet has the time to retrofit that system for all existing story steps. Whether they could do it going forward or not, I cannot comment on.

> >

> > That said, GW2 story has several things I think are poor design.

> >

> > 1) The aforementioned penalty box in Hearts and Minds is the most egregious example. Whoever came up with that one was not in any way considering whether it was going to be fun for the player who made a mistake.

> > 2) GW2 mobs in general tend to have very limited tactic "suites." This means that they tend to repeat the same tactics over and over and over. When at least one of those tactics is annoying, this results in highly annoying fights. Say one of those moves is a CC. If that's coming every few seconds, the CD's on stun breaks, stability, and avoidance (block, dodge, etc.) are too long, meaning the fight (against a mob that has a lot of health) leaves an aftertaste of annoyance rather than enjoyment.

> > 3) Large pattern AoE is way too prevalent. Whether this adds difficulty or not, it certainly adds annoyance.

> > 4) There are occasional PoV issues due to walls, getting trapped in morphing infrastructure, etc.

> > 5) (This may well be a personal peeve.) There is too much reliance on gimmick mechanics. A little of this might be OK, but I would greatly prefer that crap be largely confined to raids and fractals.

>

> Absolutely spot on. I've always felt that directed path, instanced storylines were a thin veneer for inserting a single player game. Cause consoles and the obligatory " I am the ONE"

 

That is a simplification that is simply untrue.

Single player content in mmo's is important for those with time restraints.

 

For example, the game that did what you want, FFXI would be completely not worth playing unless you got a couple of hours. Just the process of finding a group to level and getting to the area took you ages. And, because everything is too strong to solo, you end up having to simply stand still and camp a spot while a puller gets a mob for your group to kill.

It's repetitive and boring. You are fooling yourself if you think that is better.

 

There is nothing wrong with having SP and MP content. It's the way it should be. All the story content is soloable by every class, you just need to dodge and take some defensive skills if necessary + knowing what your abilities do.

[Jeknar.6184]

> @mauried.5608 said:

> The living stories are all based on speed, ie the fights are all too fast, and that means that if you cant mash keyboard buttons fast enough or move the mouse around fast enough, then you will die REGARDLESS of what build you have or what gear you have .

>

 

Living Stories based on speed? Tell me about that drag of a fight with the snow beast at Bitter Frostfrontier. Or maybe against Lazarus at the end of Livia's Chapter. If there is one thing these stories aren't it's fast.

[Harper.4173]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> >Yes it is my personal experience that quite literally every story step can be completed with every classes and a very wide ranging varriety of builds. Would you like me to stream one you find "Hard" maybe you'll learn something.

>

> No, because that misses the point entirely. *It's not about you.* It's not about whether you can do it, you don't matter to anyone other than yourself. What matters is that if *another* player is struggling with it, then *that player is struggling.* Different players come into the game with different skill levels and different expectations. The game needs to be as flexible as possible in handling that, providing experiences that adapt to where the player is at, or at least help the player to adapt to the game, rather than just assuming that the player will adapt to the game and punishing them if they don't.

>

>

>

Here's a new concept - not everyone's a winner.

Not everyone is competent. Not everyone makes it.

If a player is struggling he can:

1. Get better.

2. Not get better and ask someone who is better to help.

It's really not that hard. The game is making a wrong choice by having a "one size fits all instance". Ideally it should have different difficulty tiers with different rewards.

 

Also how is assuming the player will adapt to the game wrong? It's a game - an interactive system that requires you to adapt and modify your behavior patterns and input in order to obtain the desired output from the game. A video game is exactly the kind of thing that you adapt to.

Just because you're not winning doesn't mean you're being punished. Not everyone has to be a winner.

 

[Khisanth.2948]

@jmrathbun.7263 said:

> I read that AN had been making the game more difficult out of deference to WoW refugees who like things more hard-core. Not every player agrees. Older players, those coming back after a vacation of a year or more, casual players looking for the story more than an exhausting ordeal may feel overwhelmed and drop out.

>

> I've previously completed three toons here: an ele, a warr, and a hunter. None of them was a world-beater, but I had fun with each. I took a few years off and returned recently because I heard the Path of Fire expansion was worthwhile. I've been struggling to relearn my ele and get him back on the story path. It took me several days to progress to the point of making it through Dry Top. I found myself playing the World Summit story, which I had previously completed on at least one of my later toons.

>

> My ele's a bit of a glass cannon. That works in team play and in open world if I choose my ground and don't try to tackle too many enemies at once. In each of the story instances, I've needed a tank and healer to survive. AN thoughtfully provided such until the climax dragon fight in the world tree. That was catastrophic!

>

> There's an overwhelming amount of adversity in that scenario. Damage comes from all directions, you have to kill the three shoots and then hit the dragon, rinse and repeat for a total of at least four cycles. You're constantly being crippled so you can't run away from damage. And when you inevitably die, it offers to restart you from a check point but DOESN'T RESTORE YOUR ARMOR!

>

> So there I am, running around stark naked, getting off a couple of hits before they knock me down and stomp me again. It was the opposite of fun.

>

> This is a plea to broaden your base by making the story instances easier. As regards the open world part of the game, Dry Top is a horror for a soloist, which is what you'll be if you go in

> off-peak hours. And it's a long, dreary way back from the nearest waypoint if you screw up.

>

> Maybe you would consider some settings for casual vs hard-core players that would make the game more fun for those of us who are less talented or driven. That's most of the world, btw.

 

World Summit and glass cannon ele is fine assuming you know the encounter. That means know how to avoid the dragon's attacks as well as how the vine and other mobs behave works. If you are going in blind ... well you are going to have to learn the fight somehow. I actually got slightly annoyed with how fast I was phasing the dragon because it would change phase before I can even finish casting my usual set of skills.

 

> @Chickenooble.5014 said:

> Always carry a few Instant Repair Canisters if you're doing instanced content.

 

I find Instant Repair Canisters to be nearly worthless because of how infrequently they are needed(you have to die 8 times in a row before you need repair). >

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Harper.4173 said:

> Here's a new concept - not everyone's a winner.

 

Fun concept, not at all relevant here. This is a game, there's no benefit to them kittening off any more customers than they have to. They want to provide a fun experience to everyone, even the ones who "aren't a winner."

 

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Harper.4173 said:

> > Here's a new concept - not everyone's a winner.

>

> Fun concept, not at all relevant here. This is a game, there's no benefit to them kittening off any more customers than they have to. They want to provide a fun experience to everyone, even the ones who "aren't a winner."

>

>

 

No but what they said, that you've conveniently ignored is entirely relevant. A game is an interactive medium that relies on people executing upon set interactions. Even the most basic of games Snake adheres tot his and guess what ? There's not multiple modes for that, it' has a baseline difficulty (much like GW2) that expands upon itself the longer you play.

 

It's almost like if you're still unable in stories at this point in the games life, it's not the game. Maybe just maybe instead of being that guy who tries to childproof literally everything until the game is nothing but an plug and play slideshow you should advocate people actually LEARNING.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > @Harper.4173 said:

> > > Here's a new concept - not everyone's a winner.

> >

> > Fun concept, not at all relevant here. This is a game, there's no benefit to them kittening off any more customers than they have to. They want to provide a fun experience to everyone, even the ones who "aren't a winner."

> >

> >

>

> No but what they said, that you've conveniently ignored is entirely relevant. A game is an interactive medium that relies on people executing upon set interactions. Even the most basic of games Snake adheres tot his and guess what ? There's not multiple modes for that, it' has a baseline difficulty (much like GW2) that expands upon itself the longer you play.

>

> It's almost like if you're still unable in stories at this point in the games life, it's not the game. Maybe just maybe instead of being that guy who tries to childproof literally everything until the game is nothing but an plug and play slideshow you should advocate people actually LEARNING.

 

I advocate people playing how they'd like to play, not shoehorning them into how *I'd* want them to play.

[TexZero.7910]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > @Harper.4173 said:

> > > > Here's a new concept - not everyone's a winner.

> > >

> > > Fun concept, not at all relevant here. This is a game, there's no benefit to them kittening off any more customers than they have to. They want to provide a fun experience to everyone, even the ones who "aren't a winner."

> > >

> > >

> >

> > No but what they said, that you've conveniently ignored is entirely relevant. A game is an interactive medium that relies on people executing upon set interactions. Even the most basic of games Snake adheres tot his and guess what ? There's not multiple modes for that, it' has a baseline difficulty (much like GW2) that expands upon itself the longer you play.

> >

> > It's almost like if you're still unable in stories at this point in the games life, it's not the game. Maybe just maybe instead of being that guy who tries to childproof literally everything until the game is nothing but an plug and play slideshow you should advocate people actually LEARNING.

>

> I advocate people playing how they'd like to play, not shoehorning them into how *I'd* want them to play.

 

No, you advocate literally watering down content to the lowest possible denominator and have said as much in this very thread.

 

 

[battledrone.8315]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > @Harper.4173 said:

> > > Here's a new concept - not everyone's a winner.

> >

> > Fun concept, not at all relevant here. This is a game, there's no benefit to them kittening off any more customers than they have to. They want to provide a fun experience to everyone, even the ones who "aren't a winner."

> >

> >

>

> No but what they said, that you've conveniently ignored is entirely relevant. A game is an interactive medium that relies on people executing upon set interactions. Even the most basic of games Snake adheres tot his and guess what ? There's not multiple modes for that, it' has a baseline difficulty (much like GW2) that expands upon itself the longer you play.

>

> It's almost like if you're still unable in stories at this point in the games life, it's not the game. Maybe just maybe instead of being that guy who tries to childproof literally everything until the game is nothing but an plug and play slideshow you should advocate people actually LEARNING.

 

okay, then they have to remove login rewards..most of the farm zones..level scaling...go back to need and greed loot system with one lootbox for all..

all the material nodes have to be redesigned, so there is only one player, who gets lucky

all of those are super casual, and if you really mean, what you write, you wont use any of it

[TexZero.7910]

> @battledrone.8315 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > @Harper.4173 said:

> > > > Here's a new concept - not everyone's a winner.

> > >

> > > Fun concept, not at all relevant here. This is a game, there's no benefit to them kittening off any more customers than they have to. They want to provide a fun experience to everyone, even the ones who "aren't a winner."

> > >

> > >

> >

> > No but what they said, that you've conveniently ignored is entirely relevant. A game is an interactive medium that relies on people executing upon set interactions. Even the most basic of games Snake adheres tot his and guess what ? There's not multiple modes for that, it' has a baseline difficulty (much like GW2) that expands upon itself the longer you play.

> >

> > It's almost like if you're still unable in stories at this point in the games life, it's not the game. Maybe just maybe instead of being that guy who tries to childproof literally everything until the game is nothing but an plug and play slideshow you should advocate people actually LEARNING.

>

> okay, then they have to remove login rewards..most of the farm zones..level scaling...go back to need and greed loot system with one lootbox for all..

> all the material nodes have to be redesigned, so there is only one player, who gets lucky

> all of those are super casual, and if you really mean, what you write, you wont use any of it

 

What are you even on about ?

 

There's a difference between being casual and being well intentionally obtuse. There's really no other way to phrase that.

The game does everything it needs to do to teach you the fundamentals starting from level 1-80 and beyond with masteries. If you're still the type of person who plays the stand in fire DPS higher game, then nothing this game does can help you. If you're the kind of person who mindlessly rushes into combat without looking at and reading the in game UI elements, that's on you. If you're the kind of player whose primary strategy is to continually repeat the same mistakes, that's on you.

 

Complaining that the story is hard... please. I've asked for an example from you two already and all i get it the tried and true Dwayne Johnson deflection strategy of it doesn't matter.

 

Do you two really want help or would you rather be the modern incarnation of the boy who cried wolf.

[Edelweiss.4261]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

>

> What are you even on about ?

>

> There's a difference between being casual and being well intentionally obtuse. There's really no other way to phrase that.

> The game does everything it needs to do to teach you the fundamentals starting from level 1-80 and beyond with masteries. If you're still the type of person who plays the stand in fire DPS higher game, then nothing this game does can help you. If you're the kind of person who mindlessly rushes into combat without looking at and reading the in game UI elements, that's on you. If you're the kind of player whose primary strategy is to continually repeat the same mistakes, that's on you.

>

Your presence in this thread has only been hostile and elitist. It is clear from saying things such as "still the type of person who plays the stand in fire DPS" that you are either arguing in bad faith or grossly misreading what is written. You even plainly misrepresent Ohoni's position. The point is that, for some people, the level of difficulty detracts from their enjoyment. Additionally, there's only so much better you can get by learning. Knowledge of how to do something does not guarantee the ability to do it. I'm sure that some people will never become able to complete the content on their own because of no fault of their own. Yes, they can ask for help. Unfortunately, a good chunk of players will respond to this with hostility and elitism.

 

> Complaining that the story is hard... please. I've asked for an example from you two already and all i get it the tried and true Dwayne Johnson deflection strategy of it doesn't matter.

>

> Do you two really want help or would you rather be the modern incarnation of the boy who cried wolf.

 

Your request for an example was rude, elitist, and entirely missed the point. On the chance that you truly don't understand, just because you can do something does not mean that others can. Therefore, showing that you can do it is completely pointless and only derails the conversation. Also, I don't think they were asking for help. They noticed potential difficulty in their completion and thought about how it might impact others. I'd say that's quite admirable.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > > @Harper.4173 said:

> > > > > Here's a new concept - not everyone's a winner.

> > > >

> > > > Fun concept, not at all relevant here. This is a game, there's no benefit to them kittening off any more customers than they have to. They want to provide a fun experience to everyone, even the ones who "aren't a winner."

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > No but what they said, that you've conveniently ignored is entirely relevant. A game is an interactive medium that relies on people executing upon set interactions. Even the most basic of games Snake adheres tot his and guess what ? There's not multiple modes for that, it' has a baseline difficulty (much like GW2) that expands upon itself the longer you play.

> > >

> > > It's almost like if you're still unable in stories at this point in the games life, it's not the game. Maybe just maybe instead of being that guy who tries to childproof literally everything until the game is nothing but an plug and play slideshow you should advocate people actually LEARNING.

> >

> > I advocate people playing how they'd like to play, not shoehorning them into how *I'd* want them to play.

>

> No, you advocate literally watering down content to the lowest possible denominator and have said as much in this very thread.

>

>

 

Yes, same thing. Keep in mind that I also advocate allowing *options* for players to increase difficulty that *want* that experience, but yes, the lowest available denomination for should be for the lowest common denominator.

 

>The game does everything it needs to do to teach you the fundamentals starting from level 1-80 and beyond with masteries.

 

It really doesn't. The game doesn't do a terribly great job about teaching mechanics at all. Best you could say is that it presents "opportunities" for you to *fail* if you don't figure out the mechanics for *yourself,* but it really *teaches* very little. It would basically be equivalent to a history class with no textbook or lectures, they just hand you a test on day one, presumably you'd fail most of it and they'd mark it as such, and then there'd be another test on day two and so on until you either got a passing grade or failed out.

 

>Do you two really want help or would you rather be the modern incarnation of the boy who cried wolf.

 

You keep acting as if anyone asked you for help. Nobody asked for your help. Nobody wants your help. This is not about asking for help, this is asking for *change.* You keep "offering" help because you would prefer to help others be more like you than to have the game adapt *to* other players, but don't pretend that this is what *they* want, it's what *you* want.

[Coulter.2315]

> @Edelweiss.4261 said:

>You even plainly misrepresent Ohoni's position.

 

I've argued with Ohoni for years, Tex is accurately representing Ohoni's beliefs.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Coulter.2315 said:

> > @Edelweiss.4261 said:

> >You even plainly misrepresent Ohoni's position.

>

> I've argued with Ohoni for years, Tex is accurately representing Ohoni's beliefs.

>

 

Maybe ask him?