Losing faith in Thief...

[Alatar.7364]

> @Cynz.9437 said:

 

> +1/decap can do anyone really, other classes got plenty of mobility buffs for it, not to mention combat wise most of them bring more to the team. But yes, with decent team you can still make good plays with thief.

 

Yup, This.

While Thief will be always a bit faster, I still constantly see Mesmer, even Warrior, do an insane Work on decapping while being so much more to the Team, that I slowly believe that Ratio "decap/team asset" of Thief is no longer "profitable" as much for the Team as having someone else instead.

However stealthing Team is still of utmost importance and I see no one else except Scrapper, that could succeed Thief in this Role.

 

 

 

[Vertep.2498]

> @Alatar.7364 said:

> > @Cynz.9437 said:

>

> > +1/decap can do anyone really, other classes got plenty of mobility buffs for it, not to mention combat wise most of them bring more to the team. But yes, with decent team you can still make good plays with thief.

>

> Yup, This.

> While Thief will be always a bit faster, I still constantly see Mesmer, even Warrior, do an insane Work on decapping while being so much more to the Team, that I slowly believe that Ratio "decap/team asset" of Thief is no longer "profitable" as much for the Team as having someone else instead.

 

dont forget this warrior also is able to keep so long more than 1 player and without problem can face to face any bunkerm whiel thies as is that squishy even bunker can kill thief if he will make just 1 bad/stupid move

 

[bluri.2653]

You can disagree all you want, but theres no class that can decap/+1 as effectively as thief, it was a little different when spellbreaker was overtuned but after the nerfs they are +1able and not really the strongest 1v1'er anymore. A mirage lacks stealth and a mirage does not have the same mobility even if you take portal into account during a whole game. You can also successfully 1v1 a mirage as a DRD, I can perhaps showcase duels with misha just to show you.

[Alatar.7364]

> @bluri.2653 said:

> You can also successfully 1v1 a mirage as a DRD, I can perhaps showcase duels with misha just to show you.

 

I'd like to see that. Not because of any argumentations or 'requiring' proofs, but because I just couldn't get it to work when I tried on Duel servers. Only with few exceptions or when I 'had my day'.

 

 

[Sojourner.4621]

> @bluri.2653 said:

> You can disagree all you want, but theres no class that can decap/+1 as effectively as thief, it was a little different when spellbreaker was overtuned but after the nerfs they are +1able and not really the strongest 1v1'er anymore. A mirage lacks stealth and a mirage does not have the same mobility even if you take portal into account during a whole game. You can also successfully 1v1 a mirage as a DRD, I can perhaps showcase duels with misha just to show you.

 

A mirage lacks stealth only if it chooses to lack stealth. The only stealth mirage lacks is from blasting smoke fields, but for team stealth the curtain and the elite both work; for solo torch works, decoy works. It lacks perma stealth, which is one advantage thief has, but it has enough stealth to be of use to its team in addition to all of the other things mesmer is better at than thief.

[Cynz.9437]

> @bluri.2653 said:

> You can disagree all you want, but theres no class that can decap/+1 as effectively as thief, it was a little different when spellbreaker was overtuned but after the nerfs they are +1able and not really the strongest 1v1'er anymore. A mirage lacks stealth and a mirage does not have the same mobility even if you take portal into account during a whole game. You can also successfully 1v1 a mirage as a DRD, I can perhaps showcase duels with misha just to show you.

 

Surely, in the world of most perfect plays thief is best decapper. In reality it hardly gives you advantage in average games because most pugs can't even play around having thief on team. As far as dueling goes, is it really such a good idea to duel as a thief in a match? Realistically, simply due to thief mechanics, you won't be able to hold point and would waste time. My point stands, other classes can decap/+1 just as good while bringing more to the team and in pve/wvw thief is unwanted, once again because they bring nothing to the team.

 

The game is not balanced around you and Misha, at least it shouldn't be. Right now thief class is extremely punishing and unforgiving. It speaks volumes when players ask you to reroll something else unless you are top 10 thief. I never experienced this on any other class. Ever. If Anet insists on balancing thief around high risk/skillfloor/skillcap (i am leaving troll condi build out of here), then they should do so for other classes which they don't atm <<< this is what bugs me the most (prime example UC vs EM treatment and justification from devs).

[Murmaider.1805]

About to clock in 2k hours now, D/P DD has never let me down. Granted, this season is SOOO HARD as a thief.

 

Mesmers? Pewpew Insta bomb and condis

 

Engis? Pewpew Insta bomb and condis

 

Necro? Pewpew Insta bomb and Condis

 

Warriors? Faceroll over everything with perma stability and 2 shot you after you've exhausted all your resoures. (this one is an exaggeration, but seriously.)

 

Rangers? Pewpew 1-2 you're dead.

 

Guardians? Eh not so bad, but you can only condi cleanse so many burns before you lose to the game of endurance with their full heals, shields, bubbles, etc.

 

It's all so painfully situational and you have to be so quick on a retreat and be trigger happy, always ready to move or run or strike. Moreso than any other time I've played this game.

 

I did a warmup game with 4 of my friends in unranked PvP (all of us Plat or above) and we lost to a group of 3 Scourge and 2 SB. By 350 points. I'm going to reiterate all of us are great players, and one of the scourges was returning to the game. They literally said "Wow now I see why people complain about us, this is ridiculous"

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @KonateTheGreat.2549 said:

 

> That's why, as a thief, you always, ALWAYS initiate the fight.

 

This is 90% of gameplay for thief in the current meta. If the opponent sees you coming, or attacks you first, you lose. Retreat immediately. Think like an _actual_ thief. Nobody who gets successfully robbed expects it, and no burglar worth his salt lets people get the drop on him/her.

[Asur.9178]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @KonateTheGreat.2549 said:

>

> > That's why, as a thief, you always, ALWAYS initiate the fight.

>

> This is 90% of gameplay for thief in the current meta. If the opponent sees you coming, or attacks you first, you lose. Retreat immediately. Think like an _actual_ thief. Nobody who gets successfully robbed expects it, and no burglar worth his salt lets people get the drop on him/her.

 

Passives...they're a thing.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @zinkz.7045 said:

> For the most part thief got nerfed because for the first 3 years of this game they balanced virtually entirely around PvP, and for the duration of that there was a thief on nearly every PvP team and was the only class that was permameta, so of course it got nerfs

 

The problem is that the vast majority of nerfs had nothing to do with the Thief being perma-meta.

 

The one and only reason the Thief was perma-meta is because of ONE skill on ONE weapon: Shortbow #5. If you give that to any other profession or take it away from the Thief, the Thief is literally out of meta.

 

You could probably take everything away from the Thief except Shortbow #5 and Dagger auto-attack, and it would hardly have any effect on its meta status.

 

Anet is just terrible at balancing, so it changes silly, unrelated things like removing Ricochet or adding stealth attack delays or giving other professions stealth counters (Revealed skills). Basically, diminishing the Thief's combat effectiveness even though Thieves weren't taken in PvP for their combat abilities... especially post-HoT. And post-HoT, the Thief has definitely gotten hit by the nerf bat with little justification. All while never touching the main issue at all. It is a sad, sad thing.

[Cynz.9437]

> @Kageseigi.2150 said:

> > @zinkz.7045 said:

> > For the most part thief got nerfed because for the first 3 years of this game they balanced virtually entirely around PvP, and for the duration of that there was a thief on nearly every PvP team and was the only class that was permameta, so of course it got nerfs

>

> The problem is that the vast majority of nerfs had nothing to do with the Thief being perma-meta.

>

> The one and only reason the Thief was perma-meta is because of ONE skill on ONE weapon: Shortbow #5. If you give that to any other profession or take it away from the Thief, the Thief is literally out of meta.

>

> You could probably take everything away from the Thief except Shortbow #5 and Dagger auto-attack, and it would hardly have any effect on its meta status.

>

> Anet is just terrible at balancing, so it changes silly, unrelated things like removing Ricochet or adding stealth attack delays or giving other professions stealth counters (Revealed skills). Basically, diminishing the Thief's combat effectiveness even though Thieves weren't taken in PvP for their combat abilities... especially post-HoT. And post-HoT, the Thief has definitely gotten hit by the nerf bat with little justification. All while never touching the main issue at all. It is a sad, sad thing.

 

Pretty much this. Revs were prime example how giving a lot of mobility to other class renders thief useless. Remember when HoT was launched and revs could port around the map like crazy (not to mention reveal on demand and keeping with thief everywhere)? Nobody played thief outside of few hipsters (myself including).

Problem is, Anet once again is moving to direction of giving mobility to everyone and everything. Once there is class that can run around exactly like thief, thief will be deleted from game. We bring nothing to team, we can't even fight most classes (outside of facing inexperienced players).

[Keitaro Dragonheart.9047]

I'll always play the thief, but I no longer have any faith in the balancing team. At this point, I wouldn't even flinch if they just outright deleted the entire class with the next patch.

 

How Anet Balances Thief:

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @Asur.9178 said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @KonateTheGreat.2549 said:

> >

> > > That's why, as a thief, you always, ALWAYS initiate the fight.

> >

> > This is 90% of gameplay for thief in the current meta. If the opponent sees you coming, or attacks you first, you lose. Retreat immediately. Think like an _actual_ thief. Nobody who gets successfully robbed expects it, and no burglar worth his salt lets people get the drop on him/her.

>

> Passives...they're a thing.

 

No doubt passives carry players. I have bad words for those as well, but that doesn't make me think that the actual gameplay is any less engaging.

I was not implying people just need to l2p thief if they feel it sucks. The fact of the matter is it's disadvantaged in the meta for x v x es.

 

Or to put it another way:

 

> @"Keitaro Dragonheart.9047" said:

> I'll always play the thief, but I no longer have any faith in the balancing team.

[GenerationX.9178]

> @CreedOfGod.9764 said:

> I just broke 1k hours, so I'm not new to the class, and have to say it has been a blast up until the past few months. Class feels like it's straight up trash and i'm getting steamrolled in 9/10 fights in WvW with any non thief. I usually play power D/D, which is know isn't great in its current state, but I've also been feeling the heat with other weapon sets. It requires so many skills to set up good bursts, but other classes can use less abilities and get better or the same damage. I could play Mesmer (which can do everything a thief can and more) but Thief has been the only class I really enjoyed playing mechanically.

>

> Alright i'm done with the crybaby rant, so what are some of the fun/op builds you guys are running right now? Not including steath+malice stack deadeye. kitten's lame yo.

 

I totally get you I have been playing thief pretty long time. Can't say I am good but decent. I am have good burst but problem is staying alive. Lot the times I get revealed or don't have enough dodges with amount of cc's/burst skills in builds now days destroys. Dagger Dagger I feel has no defensive abilities (unless your condition spamming 3) or blinds and such. DP is pretty much the build everyone runs and just spams dodges and blinds. Honestly Dagger Dagger is my favorite weapon set but mean you could be the best thief and feel you would still have trouble. Just doesn't work way it ran when started. I don't think ANET will do anything about it because from the passed balance patches I feel they then to work on builds that are "META" . All see played now days on thief is either Sword Dagger, Dagger Pistol. Maybe the will read this post and give some Dagger Dagger love <3 PLEASE

 

P.S Also been testing different things but Dagger Dagger relies heavily on steal and cloak and dagger that if you miss just few times your done. Thought Dagger Dagger may work with Deadeye but the Deadeye's Mark is nothing compared to Steal.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @Alatar.7364 said:

> I am not running anything special, D/P mostly, Staff is my Main but not when I want to get Serious, D/D Power when I wanna have challenging fun, S/P just for the fun and banter.

>

> About your topic though, as you mentioned, past few months I really felt the weight of this absolutely unsubstantiated attention Thief got. However I can put up with that, always was up for a challenge, but what I really can't stand anymore is the insane hate it generates and supports.

> Everywhere I go I feel hated. PvE players hate Thief, WvW hates Thief, PvP despises Thief. Deleted from any usefulness, hell people don't even want us as Scouts anymore. All because of the Nerfs that were based on salty whines rather than actual constructive criticism.

 

You're a profession that is supposed to fight dirty and be slippery as hell. And the players who are good with thieves do. This is what makes us so god damn hated, and why we get so many god damn unjustified nerfs. Meanwhile, we got mesmers creeping into our territory and no one complains about them!

[GenerationX.9178]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @Alatar.7364 said:

> > I am not running anything special, D/P mostly, Staff is my Main but not when I want to get Serious, D/D Power when I wanna have challenging fun, S/P just for the fun and banter.

> >

> > About your topic though, as you mentioned, past few months I really felt the weight of this absolutely unsubstantiated attention Thief got. However I can put up with that, always was up for a challenge, but what I really can't stand anymore is the insane hate it generates and supports.

> > Everywhere I go I feel hated. PvE players hate Thief, WvW hates Thief, PvP despises Thief. Deleted from any usefulness, hell people don't even want us as Scouts anymore. All because of the Nerfs that were based on salty whines rather than actual constructive criticism.

>

> You're a profession that is supposed to fight dirty and be slippery as hell. And the players who are good with thieves do. This is what makes us so god kitten hated, and why we get so many god kitten unjustified nerfs. Meanwhile, we got mesmers creeping into our territory and no one complains about them!

 

Lot people hate a classes that meant to be played sneaky and annoying. One wrong move and we die but they don't think it's the case.

[bluri.2653]

> @Alatar.7364 said:

> > @bluri.2653 said:

> > You can also successfully 1v1 a mirage as a DRD, I can perhaps showcase duels with misha just to show you.

>

> I'd like to see that. Not because of any argumentations or 'requiring' proofs, but because I just couldn't get it to work when I tried on Duel servers. Only with few exceptions or when I 'had my day'.

>

>

 

[

"https://youtu.be/FXqaBSnwM38?t=7118")

 

obviously he disengages before but if he would stay it's a kill, even tho i even miss the initial steal. I can try to record some duels if i have the time, as i said so far the only mirage who successfully destroys me at times is misha

[Cynz.9437]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @Alatar.7364 said:

> > I am not running anything special, D/P mostly, Staff is my Main but not when I want to get Serious, D/D Power when I wanna have challenging fun, S/P just for the fun and banter.

> >

> > About your topic though, as you mentioned, past few months I really felt the weight of this absolutely unsubstantiated attention Thief got. However I can put up with that, always was up for a challenge, but what I really can't stand anymore is the insane hate it generates and supports.

> > Everywhere I go I feel hated. PvE players hate Thief, WvW hates Thief, PvP despises Thief. Deleted from any usefulness, hell people don't even want us as Scouts anymore. All because of the Nerfs that were based on salty whines rather than actual constructive criticism.

>

> You're a profession that is supposed to fight dirty and be slippery as hell. And the players who are good with thieves do. This is what makes us so god kitten hated, and why we get so many god kitten unjustified nerfs. Meanwhile, we got mesmers creeping into our territory and no one complains about them!

 

Actually there are plenty of complains about mirages. Because they were left untouched (at least where it mattered) while thief saw nerfs to both specs.

[babazhook.6805]

can not delete and posted inw orng thread