About the new fractal

[Evolute.6239]

> @Bugabuga.9721 said:

> > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

>

> > Basically, no every fractal is not going to go in this direction. We built Amala this way for this specific reason. In my opinion, though she is crazy the first few times you fight her, Amala isn't too difficult to learn, though of course that is subjective.

> >

> > People are mentioning length, keep in mind we built in purposeful trash skips to reward things such as stealth or using the SAS, that I am confident will bring people's average playtime down to our goal as they get used to the fractal.

>

> But we _are_ getting in this direction. Everything is getting longer. Fractal daily used to be 30 minutes for everything. Now we're back to case of "everyone but established groups ignore this particular combo of dailies cause it takes hour plus". I'd be okay if the whole tier was re-configured when this is daily. "Daily T4 is either Oasis + short fractal, or this combo of 3 normal fractals"

>

> And this definitely feels like it's supposed to be a raid but _even longer_ and with bonus trash-mobs but minus the enrage timer. And minus any special raid-level rewards. Why add "skippable" trash mobs? So group would have to bring a daredevil and he/she will get to use shadow refuge? Required composition should also be part of the raid. Was that the logic behind this? Why not just make the final bosses as the actual fractal. And if there is some story-telling reason for prologue, make a story mode that includes additional stages.

>

> Final boss doesn't feel "epic". It feels confusing, frustrating and spammy due to all the aoes and aggroes and telegraphs galore. Plus the new "avengers" are even bigger kick in the behind. You have to kill all of them, you can't rally off of them. Why? Regular avengers weren't pain enough?

>

> The whole thing is just frustrating and makes me want to skip fractals when "new and improved" are on the daily list.

 

Many professions bring steath and smokefields. Any ranger, a thief, or engineer is able to bring stealth and every class has some form of blast finisher really. There are also NPC items you can buy for copper (!) that will give you stealth. Saying it forces raid like compositions is beyond silly and almost makes your entire post ignorable.

 

Fractals are not just and should not devolve into 1 boss 15-minute-finish-your-daily content. That's stupid. Nor should anyone really complain about T4 difficulty when T3-2-1 exist. You can simply go down a difficulty scale and get 3 chests instead of 4 if you're not good enough. Oh no!

 

 

[TwilightSoul.9048]

Amala is so far my favorite opponent in the entire game, I love how fast paced fighting her feels with her jumping around and using so many different attacks and since the AoE's have so many blind spots it doesn't really feel too pressuring, the only thing that I think will make her a little boring over time is how the gods are tied to different phases instead of beeing something she can just shift in and out of. At least that is the case in the T1 Version of the Fractal, I have only played the fractal once on T1 with 2 friends to enjoy the story before we jump into high tier to enjoy the grinding :P

[Mister Asdasd.6194]

Nothing like missing 1 of the million aoe attacks and get stunlocked until you get downed which punishes you with the spawn of an OP "avenger" tht wont despawn until killed and doing massive damage. Yeah, now even getting downed is punished, i despise the new fractal and it is another one of those that will make me skip fractal day if i see them in daily tier, i cant be bothered fidning random people who can or can not do the fractal withing a reasonable amount of time. I miss the days when we could ahve a balance and not everything was a mix of Dark souls/God of War/bullethell style fractal

[CptAurellian.9537]

But we still do have great balance. Some old fractals like Solid Boredom or Aquatic are mind-numbing and, just in case, you can do a lower level if T4 is too demanding.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Bugabuga.9721 said:

> > @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

>

> > Basically, no every fractal is not going to go in this direction. We built Amala this way for this specific reason. In my opinion, though she is crazy the first few times you fight her, Amala isn't too difficult to learn, though of course that is subjective.

> >

> > People are mentioning length, keep in mind we built in purposeful trash skips to reward things such as stealth or using the SAS, that I am confident will bring people's average playtime down to our goal as they get used to the fractal.

>

> But we _are_ getting in this direction. Everything is getting longer. Fractal daily used to be 30 minutes for everything. Now we're back to case of "everyone but established groups ignore this particular combo of dailies cause it takes hour plus". I'd be okay if the whole tier was re-configured when this is daily. "Daily T4 is either Oasis + short fractal, or this combo of 3 normal fractals"

>

> And this definitely feels like it's supposed to be a raid but _even longer_ and with bonus trash-mobs but minus the enrage timer. And minus any special raid-level rewards. Why add "skippable" trash mobs? So group would have to bring a daredevil and he/she will get to use shadow refuge? Required composition should also be part of the raid. Was that the logic behind this? Why not just make the final bosses as the actual fractal. And if there is some story-telling reason for prologue, make a story mode that includes additional stages.

>

> Final boss doesn't feel "epic". It feels confusing, frustrating and spammy due to all the aoes and aggroes and telegraphs galore. Plus the new "avengers" are even bigger kick in the behind. You have to kill all of them, you can't rally off of them. Why? Regular avengers weren't pain enough?

>

> The whole thing is just frustrating and makes me want to skip fractals when "new and improved" are on the daily list.

 

Fractal dailies used to be 1.5-2 hours or 1 hour with a good static.

 

Oh wait, you ment the easy mode post HoT fractals which had not been revised in ages and not adjusted to powercreep and elite specs. Yeah I get your confusion.

 

I bet you wished the 4 necro+1 druid braindead meta would be back too right?

 

As is, having T4 fractals actually be a bit challenging is fine. If you can't cut it, drop down to T3. If you absolutely want the loot: git gud. This isn't even challenge mode.

[hornswroggle.8023]

Tried the frac on launch at 16 solo and got all the way to the endboss with little to no problem. She herself nigh imppossible to solo, but that's totally fine for a boss so I left it there.

 

Tried it today on T4 with full premade group and failed. (I was healing on Tempest)

 

Here are a few issues I saw crop up:

- The Defiance on Sand Binders **does not work**. In **any** way.

- The Endboss fight is an absolute firework of skill effects and telegraphs rendering certain attack-combos (or entire fractal vindicators) completely invisible

- The instabilities chosen for this frac are comboing VERY hard. Into themselves and into Oasis mechanics.

- Tornados are impossible to escape at health lower than 80%, because of Hamstrung

- Fractal vindicators are affected by Adrenaline rush making them capable of instantly defeating people.

- Amalias phase with the most damage (Balthazar) is further buffed by Adrenaline rush.

- The lighning barrage in the Dwayna phase does (too) many things: It follows the player, stacks Vuln and Torment and every strike dazes.

- The AoE telegraph on the arena-wide Cyclone is lying. At first it shows safe spots that grow smaller, when in reality once the attack hits there is none.

 

Here are a few things I've noticed that might prove useful to players learning the fight:

- The SAS is a stunbreak and evade on a 5s CD - use it!

- In the Lyssa phase: Amalia only Teleports and doesn't lose targeting, so tag her immediately with Ctrl-T to keep track of her.

- In the Melandru phase: the boulder of the elemental is a normal projectile that can be blocked or reflected as such

- In the Dwayna phase: To evade the arena-covering cyclone just jump over it with the SAS.

- In the Grenth phase: Epidemic or reflects work wonders against the worms.

- In the Balthazar phase: There are 3 different shockwave attacks: Her scythe slam, her fist slam and the meteor. Only the scythe has to be jumped with the SAS. the other 2 can be jumped normally.

- If you wipe on the boss the first time, got back through the fractal and grab another Sigulartity. This way you have 2 during the boss fight.

[Excell.1042]

Personally I feel like a normal mode fractal can only achieve so much, and, while I don't know numbers, is that this fractal release surely wasnt all that interesting for me as the two prior (The Nightmare and the Shattered observatory), I feel like we've come to a point where my type of player (A veteran with thousands of hours) are waiting for the challenging stuff, anything that comes aside from that is fun, but in the end the most time is spent in the more challenging bits. I would preffer if you guys would look into adding more CM's, and adding CM's to older fractals. For example, I feel like with the overhaul of both Mai Trin and Molten Bosses it wouldve been really cool if they got a CM added, the CM would reward the same things, but also have their own loot table (Mai for example could have aetherized weapons for the same price as caustic nightmare skins, aswell as the tonics and monocle, same goes for the Molten Bosses, which could have fused weapon, the jetpack skin and tonics on their loot tables.

 

Personally I feel like, deffinatly when we're close to hitting the 25 different fractals, we need more challengemode fractals to give players a bigger pool of stuff to do at the very end of endgame.

 

Thats my two cents, hope it will be picked up on, either way, the fractal was great.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

> @"Mister Asdasd.6194" said:

> Nothing like missing 1 of the million aoe attacks and get stunlocked until you get downed which punishes you with the spawn of an OP "avenger" tht wont despawn until killed and doing massive damage. Yeah, now even getting downed is punished, i despise the new fractal and it is another one of those that will make me skip fractal day if i see them in daily tier, i cant be bothered fidning random people who can or can not do the fractal withing a reasonable amount of time. I miss the days when we could ahve a balance and not everything was a mix of Dark souls/God of War/bullethell style fractal

 

You can't get stunlocked, since you have an SAS that is a 5 second cooldown stunbreak. Make sure you bind the SAS or it's going to be much more difficult for you.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

> @hornswroggle.8023 said:

> Tried the frac on launch at 16 solo and got all the way to the endboss with little to no problem. She herself nigh imppossible to solo, but that's totally fine for a boss so I left it there.

>

> Tried it today on T4 with full premade group and failed. (I was healing on Tempest)

>

> Here are a few issues I saw crop up:

> - The Defiance on Sand Binders **does not work**. In **any** way.

> - The Endboss fight is an absolute firework of skill effects and telegraphs rendering certain attack-combos (or entire fractal vindicators) completely invisible

> - The instabilities chosen for this frac are comboing VERY hard. Into themselves and into Oasis mechanics.

> - Tornados are impossible to escape at health lower than 80%, because of Hamstrung

> - Fractal vindicators are affected by Adrenaline rush making them capable of instantly defeating people.

> - Amalias phase with the most damage (Balthazar) is further buffed by Adrenaline rush.

> - The lighning barrage in the Dwayna phase does (too) many things: It follows the player, stacks Vuln and Torment and every strike dazes.

> - The AoE telegraph on the arena-wide Cyclone is lying. At first it shows safe spots that grow smaller, when in reality once the attack hits there is none.

>

> Here are a few things I've noticed that might prove useful to players learning the fight:

> - The SAS is a stunbreak and evade on a 5s CD - use it!

> - In the Lyssa phase: Amalia only Teleports and doesn't lose targeting, so tag her immediately with Ctrl-T to keep track of her.

> - In the Melandru phase: the boulder of the elemental is a normal projectile that can be blocked or reflected as such

> - In the Dwayna phase: To evade the arena-covering cyclone just jump over it with the SAS.

> - In the Grenth phase: Epidemic or reflects work wonders against the worms.

> - In the Balthazar phase: There are 3 different shockwave attacks: Her scythe slam, her fist slam and the meteor. Only the scythe has to be jumped with the SAS. the other 2 can be jumped normally.

> - If you wipe on the boss the first time, got back through the fractal and grab another Sigulartity. This way you have 2 during the boss fight.

 

The defiance bar should work fine. It prevents a big attack that also applies boons to the boss, and it stuns for 3s or so. I've broken her bar several times since we shipped.

 

Singularities also do not stack. Or, should not.

[Lalainnia.3598]

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of ppl were doing this on t4 without pots.

[Cuon Alpinus.7645]

Yeah, just did this on T4 with a group of pugs and it went fine. Took us a few attempts, but that's because most of them completely forgot about using their Special Action button. In the more chaotic portions of the fight where she tosses AoEs all over the floor, it kinda trivializes the fight. If you use it right, you take substantially less damage. I've also noticed that people still don't understand being marked by the rock golem, though it doesn't pose too much of a threat so long as you have heals.

 

Content doesn't need to be nerfed; people just need to learn the encounter and use the tools available to them. The only actually annoying part of it are the sand twisters, but again, special action key kinda "nopes" you out of there. The only other issue I've had is getting hit / hamstrung causing buggy issues with the special action jump height.

[Sublimatio.6981]

One issue i have with the tornadoes is that stability doesn't work on them. This is especially annoying at the reworked molten boss - previously you could stack stability and not move at all in the knockback arena. now stability has no effect at all and it feels unfair. if i have stability i dont want to be pushed.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

> @Sublimatio.6981 said:

> One issue i have with the tornadoes is that stability doesn't work on them. This is especially annoying at the reworked molten boss - previously you could stack stability and not move at all in the knockback arena. now stability has no effect at all and it feels unfair. if i have stability i dont want to be pushed.

 

Stability still has a ton of utility outside of the tornados. The tornados aren't a CC in that you can still use all your skills, which is why stability won't counter it. Its worth noting I'm decreasing the wind radius for tornados as I feel it is too large compared to the AoE, and I'm increasing the evade duration of the SAS since it's too small to avoid the Balthazar meteor sometimes, which feels bad.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

Okay I can report now a bit

 

I done it one T2 it was hard but doable with some good players.

I tried it today on T3 I joined a "we stay at the final boss group" I would say 3-5 groups tried this particular fractal.

 

I couldn't either its the same stuff like observatory I won't vine about it is just depressing

 

We got it under 14% problem is the tornado wipes the whole group. To be more specific in T2 we burst through this phase which wasn't possible with this group.

Similar to observatory(75) in B3 with the 33% phase no real tactic only a soft enrage timer. (Chaos fractal Boss and then Arkk making the same damage as the Boss out of uncategorized you have to be quick)

 

This is so bad as design.

 

Edit: Okay I didn't saw the last post from Benjamin Arnold.3457

 

[Vagrant.7206]

My main issues with the new fractal (played on t4) are fourfold:

 

1. At T4 the boss has an obscene amount of health. By dragging out the length of this encounter, the chances for a screw up that snowballs are greatly increased, even if everybody is doing their part.

2. It is nearly impossible to get an ally back up if they get downed. This has a serious snowball effect. And I don't think it will get better with experience (IE Bloomy, Chaos). It's usually simpler to /gg in the first 40% of health than try to get them up.

3. The visual clutter is out of this world. I can't tell where I'm aiming half my skills because there's just so much going on. This also makes it harder to track allies who need help. Ironically, the visual clutter is worst during the Balthazar phase, when you really need the most focus.

4. This is more a general observation, but why are fractals increasing in difficulty without corresponding increases in rewards? Makes the mode feel more like punishment for no particular reason.

[Rennie.6750]

> @"Benjamin Arnold.3457" said:

> Wonderful feedback! It's good to hear people's different experiences. I'm gonna paste something I wrote on reddit to give some context behind Amalas design:

>

> "Amala was special in that the aesthetic we wanted for her was to be a crazy powerful dervish with godlike powers, and we wanted her to feel fast, not sluggish. For this reason we spent a lot of time making sure her attacks all felt epic. Her mechanics themselves are very simple, but her skillset is not. She's got the most skills built for any boss in all of gw2 by a long shot, and that's specifically because of the aesthetic we wanted for her. Future bosses will have different aesthetics, and so will play different and will have different skills (read, fewer)

>

> Some of the orange effects can get lost when player skills are overlapping, especially with the lighting, so we will make it more of a focus that telegraphs are readable on boss platforms.

>

> Tldr; This isn't AoE spam for the sake of AoE spam, this is an attempt at creating the most powerful looking dervish of all time."

>

> Basically, no every fractal is not going to go in this direction. We built Amala this way for this specific reason. In my opinion, though she is crazy the first few times you fight her, Amala isn't too difficult to learn, though of course that is subjective.

>

> People are mentioning length, keep in mind we built in purposeful trash skips to reward things such as stealth or using the SAS, that I am confident will bring people's average playtime down to our goal as they get used to the fractal.

 

OK I understand your point, but I'm still maintaining that it's significantly harder than most other fractals and that the rewards should be higher as a consequence. The balthazar part is probably the hardest one of the final fight.

 

As someone quite light sensitive, all I can say is that the visual mess is really frustrating. I normally have trouble seeing the thin red line aoes under normal circumstances when my team uses spells with obnixious animations and visuals, but this is really nearly unplayable to me. I normally rely on my memory and knowledge of the encounters to compensate but this time well there's a lot to know and the pacing makes this kind of tricky.

 

As for the trash part, well I never understand why game devs put stuff that is meant to be skipped. I just don't see the point at all.

 

Last but not least, trash or not, it's really long. I prefer the old 10-12 mins fractals, the longer they are, the more i'm tempted to make a decent gold/hour somewhere else. Content is fun, but the rewards structure for the newer ones is completely outdated.

[Rennie.6750]

> @Excell.1042 said:

> Personally I feel like a normal mode fractal can only achieve so much, and, while I don't know numbers, is that this fractal release surely wasnt all that interesting for me as the two prior (The Nightmare and the Shattered observatory), I feel like we've come to a point where my type of player (A veteran with thousands of hours) are waiting for the challenging stuff, anything that comes aside from that is fun, but in the end the most time is spent in the more challenging bits. I would preffer if you guys would look into adding more CM's, and adding CM's to older fractals. For example, I feel like with the overhaul of both Mai Trin and Molten Bosses it wouldve been really cool if they got a CM added, the CM would reward the same things, but also have their own loot table (Mai for example could have aetherized weapons for the same price as caustic nightmare skins, aswell as the tonics and monocle, same goes for the Molten Bosses, which could have fused weapon, the jetpack skin and tonics on their loot tables.

>

> Personally I feel like, deffinatly when we're close to hitting the 25 different fractals, we need more challengemode fractals to give players a bigger pool of stuff to do at the very end of endgame.

>

> Thats my two cents, hope it will be picked up on, either way, the fractal was great.

 

That's another problem, but as long as the devs don't find a way to substantially increase the CM population, it's not going to be a priority. I could totally do CMs myself, I'd just need an hour or two of practice but then what would I do? LFG groups require 50+ kp which is absurd, you know an encounter or you don't, and that's why I haven't even bothered practising at all. Not going to do 50 practice runs because we can't fake KPs with chat codes once you understand how it works.

[Benjamin Arnold.3457]

What I've gathered so far:

 

1. Some people think it's too hard.

2. Some people thing it's too easy/boring.

3. Some people think it's too long.

4. Some people think it's good length.

5. Some people like the trash skips.

6. Some people hate the trash skips.

7. Many people think it's visually noisy.

8. Some people like the visuals.

 

It's still really soon, I'm interested to see how feedback evolves over time, as it has with previous fractals. I'll of course be watching our metrics for info on average playtime and failure/success rate.

[zealex.9410]

A tip i ahve during the lyssa phase is that if you get the moa aoe you can use special action key and the aoe will dissapear for the durr of the jump.

[Silmar Alech.4305]

I'm one of the "...hate the trash skips" people, but if you spend time on working on this fractal, I'm perfectly fine if you prioritize work on balancing the final boss encounter instead on the trash mob encounters ;)

 

But if you plan future fractals, I'd like very much see less singular legendary boss encounters but rather encounters where you fight a larger amount of lesser mobs at the same time. The PoF story fights where you infiltrated the forged camp was cool, or the final story stages where you fight your way up to Balthazar.

[Nevermore.1089]

I loved the old fractals in that they were doable by pug's (of whatever characters people want to play). Basically, join random squad and have fun. I am also semi-ok that the newer CM versions are more raid-like in that you have to be a little more particular in the builds or classes that come along. However, this being a non-CM should be easy with a pug (if you know the mechanics), but it feels like it not. For the fractal itself, the Balthazar phase feel a little too punishing @ T4... there is so much going on that w/o a healer the group is going to have an extra challenge.

 

Ben, I do have to ask a question, when designing the new fractals, are you keeping the pug's in mind... or do you design based of meta/raid squads? Does the team ever go back in and play with the pug's on an individual basis? I have a feeling, the group is creating content for specialized groups, knows exactly everything about the instance and how to get past each phase (well because the programmed it to the n'th degree), playtests with those specialized groups, claim this is awesome & good to go. People that play in specialized groups say... yup easy (because they are awesome you know), and those that play in pug's say wth.

 

This is what I don't like... say back in the early dungeon/fotm days, you had two types of groups (lets say both are familiar w/ the instance...so not talking about newbies here). 1, The people doing the instance casually for the rewards & 2, the meta speed runners. People from the 1st group had fun (because they could clear it and get rewards), people in the 2nd group had fun (because they could get more rewards from clearing faster). However, 2nd group started saying... it's too easy so the dev's had to throw more at them to keep them interested, but it doesn't seem like the dev's really care about the 1st group... because it seems more are more content is being developed to challenge the 2nd group than the 1st. For every mechanic that is defeated by the 2nd, the 1st takes the punishment. For example, the typical chrono/druid combo... with this these classes the others in the group can defeat/ignore most mechanics thrown at them w/o much issue... so much so, that it's the norm to run them by the 2nd group.

 

The reason I mention this is because during development of fotm's I don't believe the dev's should be coding for meta. Code for the pug's, let the meta teams get thru it faster and create a CM for meta.

[Ultimatepwr.9562]

I have a question Ben, what is your teams perspective on stealth only skips? I ask this as a hypothetical, as I actually don't know anything about the twilight oasis' skips.

 

In my eyes, stealth skips aren't gameplay. In essence, a stealth skip is just walking through an area, with no real difference between walking through a empty space except that it requires a couple of specific classes. (Exception of course made for stealth gameplay that is designed in with truesight mobs, like for example Underground Facility). Since there are some legitimate reasons why a group wouldn't have stealth, and stealth isn't something that effects actual gameplay, at best a stealth only skip will make it feel bad for people to play classes they actually like, and at worst stealth skips will cause people to not be able to play at all because they want to play a class they like. And unlike healing, which is its own gameplay style, there is no benefits to the players. Plus, in certain places, most notably Urban Battleground, stealth completely breaks the lore and feel of what the dungeon is supposed to be.

 

So basically, do you feel different about it? Do you see inherent gameplay value in stealth skips? Do you like creating non-stealth based skips? Do you agree/disagree with any of my opinions? And as someone quite attuned to the community, especially the dungeon community, what do you think the communities opinion is as a whole?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

New fractal has been out less than a week. I think it's too soon to insist it's easier than this or harder than that.

[Randulf.7614]

> @Nevermore.1089 said:

> I loved the old fractals in that they were doable by pug's (of whatever characters people want to play). Basically, join random squad and have fun. I am also semi-ok that the newer CM versions are more raid-like in that you have to be a little more particular in the builds or classes that come along. However, this being a non-CM should be easy with a pug (if you know the mechanics), but it feels like it not. For the fractal itself, the Balthazar phase feel a little too punishing @ T4... there is so much going on that w/o a healer the group is going to have an extra challenge.

>

> Ben, I do have to ask a question, when designing the new fractals, are you keeping the pug's in mind... or do you design based of meta/raid squads? Does the team ever go back in and play with the pug's on an individual basis? I have a feeling, the group is creating content for specialized groups, knows exactly everything about the instance and how to get past each phase (well because the programmed it to the n'th degree), playtests with those specialized groups, claim this is awesome & good to go. People that play in specialized groups say... yup easy (because they are awesome you know), and those that play in pug's say wth.

>

> This is what I don't like... say back in the early dungeon/fotm days, you had two types of groups (lets say both are familiar w/ the instance...so not talking about newbies here). 1, The people doing the instance casually for the rewards & 2, the meta speed runners. People from the 1st group had fun (because they could clear it and get rewards), people in the 2nd group had fun (because they could get more rewards from clearing faster). However, 2nd group started saying... it's too easy so the dev's had to throw more at them to keep them interested, but it doesn't seem like the dev's really care about the 1st group... because it seems more are more content is being developed to challenge the 2nd group than the 1st. For every mechanic that is defeated by the 2nd, the 1st takes the punishment. For example, the typical chrono/druid combo... with this these classes the others in the group can defeat/ignore most mechanics thrown at them w/o much issue... so much so, that it's the norm to run them by the 2nd group.

>

> The reason I mention this is because during development of fotm's I don't believe the dev's should be coding for meta. Code for the pug's, let the meta teams get thru it faster and create a CM for meta.

 

Agreed or at least T1 (and poss T2) at least should should be throw together teams done in 10-15mins as per the core pillar of design fractals were always to be. I haven't played this one yet (hopefully this week), but Nightmare was probably the closest of the new set to fit the original philosophy. Chaos wasn't too far off and Observatory was completely off course (imo) in length and suitability of mechanics.

 

Whilst I don't think anything should be designed for meta ever, T4/CM is where that would belong

[Lalainnia.3598]

Not that I'm looking to be mean but when I see comments like it's difficult I would love to get some insight on what the group make up looked like were people in nothing but toughness gear without any sort of offensive stats? Were ppl helping each other rez right away if possible bringing any sort of cc or helpful team utility? What about boons any sort of party sources of might Prot goes a long way to help sustain a group even without a healer. What kinda of builds were ppl running full zerk party with lilttle to no boon support or immunites/block skills or extra evades? Did ppl take advantage of the special action key? Taking note of what each type of mob did and Boss abilities after a wipe and instead of just charging back into it?

 

Most of my general wipe experiences in pug fractals tend to be because of the reasons above and becomes even more apparent in newly released content because ppl panic.