Nerf the mesmer already, the relentless clone spam is extremely overpowered.

[Amaranthe.3578]

> @"Hitman.5829" said:

> > @"jportell.2197" said:

> > Nice necroing of the thread. Mesmer has gotten so

> > Many nerfs since this first thread. Hahaha. Omg y'all r so ridiculous.

>

> It is true, they got nerfs, but also they got mostly buffs! And for the record, giving 4 second exhaustion on dodge is not a nerf, it is not even a slap on the wrist. On a 1 vs 1 fight, every class would need to use 2 CC skills within 4 seconds and have a 100% hit chance to cancel this ridiculous trait; and then use more CC every 6 seconds for the entire fight just to cancel this trait completely. If you do the math, you need 11 stuns in one minute with 100% hits landed just to cancel this stupidly OP trait.

>

> On average, the Mesmer can stun break every 5.5 seconds just by dodging. If that does not need nerfing then what?

>

>

 

People are barely running EM after the 6 second exhaustion nerf.

[Abelisk.4527]

TIME & TIME AGAIN, Mesmer mains have been in an outroar that ELUSIVE MIND isn't the problem, MIRAGE CLOAK is. Being physically (not conditionally) invulnerable for a ridiculous amount of time is simply DUMB.

 

EASY FIX: REMOVE Rune of Adventure and Sigil of Energy ASAP! No one likes perma dodge Daredevil or Mirage, there is absolutely fun in dodge spam Arenanet remove those two items and play despacito.

 

edit: while I'm at it lower axe 3 dodge by half, it's just too much on an 8 second cd lol

[Dami.5046]

nerf thief.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Abelisk.4527" said:

> (...)

> edit: while I'm at it lower axe 3 dodge by half, it's just too much on an 8 second cd lol

 

Anet gonna nerf riptide. :lol:

 

 

[Knighthonor.4061]

If only Mesmer was as bad as Ventari Revenants in SPvP.. the world would be a better place.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Abelisk.4527" said:

> TIME & TIME AGAIN, Mesmer mains have been in an outroar that ELUSIVE MIND isn't the problem, MIRAGE CLOAK is. Being physically (not conditionally) invulnerable for a ridiculous amount of time is simply DUMB.

>

> EASY FIX: REMOVE Rune of Adventure and Sigil of Energy ASAP! No one likes perma dodge Daredevil or Mirage, there is absolutely fun in dodge spam Arenanet remove those two items and play despacito.

>

> edit: while I'm at it lower axe 3 dodge by half, it's just too much on an 8 second cd lol

 

Yeah and leave holo and ranger with perma vigor and a +25% endurance regen trait (+75% endurance regen, 100% being a hard cap) and letting wars regain tons from might makes right. These classes have far more dodges now, coupled with either/or/and incredible sustain, boon access and hard damage mitigation that dwarfs mesmer.

 

Sure mirage is stronger than wonky builds but vs current meta builds it's not in a good spot and as fights scale up it becomes less useful where something like a holo, war, in some ways ranger scale better. Scaling 2+ you see scourge+FB being absolutely dominant.

 

But hey, most of the skill in this game left or gave up and just plays meme builds and don't care.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

The problem isn't the number of dodges its mirage cloak. The ability to evade while casting spells, after being stunned (even without EM), or even immobilized is overpowered. There isn't any counter play to that, you can't interrupt any crucial spells. Add onto that the amount of screen clutter and target break mesmer is capable of as well as distortion and it becomes too much. Not to mention the amount of mirage cloak you can poop out with mirrors.

[MikeL.8260]

A question keeps poping up in my mind while reading this Topic; People still use Elusive Mind?

[incisorr.9502]

if mesmer is op and requires no skill you're free to come and 1v1 me on your condi mesmer so i can laugh when you get 30-0'd

[apharma.3741]

> @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> The problem isn't the number of dodges its mirage cloak. The ability to evade while casting spells, after being stunned (even without EM), or even immobilized is overpowered. There isn't any counter play to that, you can't interrupt any crucial spells. Add onto that the amount of screen clutter and target break mesmer is capable of as well as distortion and it becomes too much. Not to mention the amount of mirage cloak you can poop out with mirrors.

 

You know a lot of classes can trait skills onto dodges right? Know what you can do about a bounding dodge thief going into stealth? pretty much nothing. Know what you can do about a reckless dodge warrior hitting you for 5k or more? Not much other than dodge, same thing as when a mirage is dodging. How about vent exhaust which not only damages you but heals the holo? Yep not much.

 

There's a lot of stuff in this game where you can't do much about it, even more that requires you to have specific counters. If you think mirage shouldn't be able to do anything while dodging then the entire elite spec would have to be redone. I would happily have holosmith, spellbreaker, firebrand or scourge trait lines and mechanics over mirage.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> > The problem isn't the number of dodges its mirage cloak. The ability to evade while casting spells, after being stunned (even without EM), or even immobilized is overpowered. There isn't any counter play to that, you can't interrupt any crucial spells. Add onto that the amount of screen clutter and target break mesmer is capable of as well as distortion and it becomes too much. Not to mention the amount of mirage cloak you can poop out with mirrors.

>

> You know a lot of classes can trait skills onto dodges right? Know what you can do about a bounding dodge thief going into stealth? pretty much nothing. Know what you can do about a reckless dodge warrior hitting you for 5k or more? Not much other than dodge, same thing as when a mirage is dodging. How about vent exhaust which not only damages you but heals the holo? Yep not much.

>

> There's a lot of stuff in this game where you can't do much about it, even more that requires you to have specific counters. If you think mirage shouldn't be able to do anything while dodging then the entire elite spec would have to be redone. I would happily have holosmith, spellbreaker, firebrand or scourge trait lines and mechanics over mirage.

 

Other classes can trait effects onto dodge rolls, this is true, but no other class has full access to their skills while executing a dodge. Can other classes dodge to ensure crucial skills (say your healing skill) complete uninterrupted? Can other classes use dodge rolls after being stunned without using a break stun? Can other classes use dodge after being immobilized (a major counter to holosmith) without first cleansing it?

 

The fact that mirage is capable of all three above puts them at a huge advantage to all the other classes. Its also the reason why mirage is such a forgiving class for less skilled players. It is very difficult to punish a mirage for slipping up.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> > > The problem isn't the number of dodges its mirage cloak. The ability to evade while casting spells, after being stunned (even without EM), or even immobilized is overpowered. There isn't any counter play to that, you can't interrupt any crucial spells. Add onto that the amount of screen clutter and target break mesmer is capable of as well as distortion and it becomes too much. Not to mention the amount of mirage cloak you can poop out with mirrors.

> >

> > You know a lot of classes can trait skills onto dodges right? Know what you can do about a bounding dodge thief going into stealth? pretty much nothing. Know what you can do about a reckless dodge warrior hitting you for 5k or more? Not much other than dodge, same thing as when a mirage is dodging. How about vent exhaust which not only damages you but heals the holo? Yep not much.

> >

> > There's a lot of stuff in this game where you can't do much about it, even more that requires you to have specific counters. If you think mirage shouldn't be able to do anything while dodging then the entire elite spec would have to be redone. I would happily have holosmith, spellbreaker, firebrand or scourge trait lines and mechanics over mirage.

>

> Other classes can trait effects onto dodge rolls, this is true, but no other class has full access to their skills while executing a dodge. Can other classes dodge to ensure crucial skills (say your healing skill) complete uninterrupted? Can other classes use dodge rolls after being stunned without using a break stun? Can other classes use dodge after being immobilized (a major counter to holosmith) without first cleansing it?

>

> The fact that mirage is capable of all three above puts them at a huge advantage to all the other classes. Its also the reason why mirage is such a forgiving class for less skilled players. It is very difficult to punish a mirage for slipping up.

FYI its feature of elite spec ,without it its an empty garbage spec . Or you willing to give mesmer photon forge/Full counter that would recharge all shatters,can we get 15 new skills as FB? etc

Thats really sad . You just want mesmer to be completely trash and dead spec . Let me quote some haters 'enable your brain' and think what mirage would have if they take it away?

What nerf you want to make without nerfing all other broken specs? Those people..

[Zex Anthon.8673]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> > > > The problem isn't the number of dodges its mirage cloak. The ability to evade while casting spells, after being stunned (even without EM), or even immobilized is overpowered. There isn't any counter play to that, you can't interrupt any crucial spells. Add onto that the amount of screen clutter and target break mesmer is capable of as well as distortion and it becomes too much. Not to mention the amount of mirage cloak you can poop out with mirrors.

> > >

> > > You know a lot of classes can trait skills onto dodges right? Know what you can do about a bounding dodge thief going into stealth? pretty much nothing. Know what you can do about a reckless dodge warrior hitting you for 5k or more? Not much other than dodge, same thing as when a mirage is dodging. How about vent exhaust which not only damages you but heals the holo? Yep not much.

> > >

> > > There's a lot of stuff in this game where you can't do much about it, even more that requires you to have specific counters. If you think mirage shouldn't be able to do anything while dodging then the entire elite spec would have to be redone. I would happily have holosmith, spellbreaker, firebrand or scourge trait lines and mechanics over mirage.

> >

> > Other classes can trait effects onto dodge rolls, this is true, but no other class has full access to their skills while executing a dodge. Can other classes dodge to ensure crucial skills (say your healing skill) complete uninterrupted? Can other classes use dodge rolls after being stunned without using a break stun? Can other classes use dodge after being immobilized (a major counter to holosmith) without first cleansing it?

> >

> > The fact that mirage is capable of all three above puts them at a huge advantage to all the other classes. Its also the reason why mirage is such a forgiving class for less skilled players. It is very difficult to punish a mirage for slipping up.

> FYI its feature of elite spec ,without it its an empty garbage spec . Or you willing to give mesmer photon forge/Full counter that would recharge all shatters,can we get 15 new skills as FB? etc

> Thats really sad . You just want mesmer to be completely trash and dead spec . Let me quote some haters 'enable your brain' and think what mirage would have if they take it away?

> What nerf you want to make without nerfing all other broken specs? Those people..

 

Im not advocating for removing mirage cloak entirely. But there is no doubt that it should be toned down. I would be fine with evading while casting, **if that was all it did**. You can't honestly think that evading while stunned or immobilized without break stun or cleansing is balanced.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

Neither I dont think that FB outclass any support and basically have everything . DE slapping people without any preparation for 17-24k unblockable etc.

So what was your point ? One elite spec can do what others can , wow ,very imbalanced!

That extremely dumb to nerf one class to be trash and left others untouched. Hell , have you even seen representation of classes in leaderboard?

Nerfing mirage because others cant learn to play without nerfing other broken crap ? You are genius sir /s

[Zex Anthon.8673]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> Neither I dont think that FB outclass any support and basically have everything . DE slapping people without any preparation for 17-24k unblockable etc.

> So what was your point ? One elite spec can do what others can , wow ,very imbalanced!

> That extremely dumb to nerf one class to be trash and left others untouched. Hell , have you even seen representation of classes in leaderboard?

> Nerfing mirage because others cant learn to play without nerfing other broken kitten ? You are genius sir /s

 

Your missing the point. The problem isn't mirage can do something other classes can't, the problem is mirage can bypass mechanics (cc and immob) that already have other forms of mitigation (**which mirage has access to**).

 

How would removing the ability to dodge when stunned or immobilized nerf mirage to trash? You still have access to stunbreaks. You still have access to condition removal. The ability to dodge while stunned isn't even the design intention of the mechanic. Look at this page on [Mirage Cloak](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak_(effect) "Mirage Cloak"). It doesn't say anywhere that it can be used while stunned or immobilized. The fact that it has this ability is probably just an unfortunate side effect of how it works on the backend to be able to use it while casting. Either Anet doesn't know about it and they would, and should, change it if they knew. Or, they know it exists, and do not know how to fix it, so they try to compensate it by nerfing traits like EM to the point that they are unusable.

 

No where did I say that we should nerf mirage and leave all the other classes untouched. Like you said FB and DE could use some tuning. Almost all classes could use tuning.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

>How would removing the ability to dodge when stunned or immobilized nerf mirage to trash?

I say . Its alrdy have plently of counters and if that ever happen they must undo all nerfs they have done xD

Who said its not intended? Are you aneD dev? Even more they disabled mirage cloak on channeling buffs. So you pretty much wrong

EM was nerfed not because anet aware of the 'problem' of low skilled players but because they crying endlessly all the time about EM , even still they want 20s exhaust .

[apharma.3741]

> @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> > > The problem isn't the number of dodges its mirage cloak. The ability to evade while casting spells, after being stunned (even without EM), or even immobilized is overpowered. There isn't any counter play to that, you can't interrupt any crucial spells. Add onto that the amount of screen clutter and target break mesmer is capable of as well as distortion and it becomes too much. Not to mention the amount of mirage cloak you can poop out with mirrors.

> >

> > You know a lot of classes can trait skills onto dodges right? Know what you can do about a bounding dodge thief going into stealth? pretty much nothing. Know what you can do about a reckless dodge warrior hitting you for 5k or more? Not much other than dodge, same thing as when a mirage is dodging. How about vent exhaust which not only damages you but heals the holo? Yep not much.

> >

> > There's a lot of stuff in this game where you can't do much about it, even more that requires you to have specific counters. If you think mirage shouldn't be able to do anything while dodging then the entire elite spec would have to be redone. I would happily have holosmith, spellbreaker, firebrand or scourge trait lines and mechanics over mirage.

>

> Other classes can trait effects onto dodge rolls, this is true, but no other class has full access to their skills while executing a dodge. Can other classes dodge to ensure crucial skills (say your healing skill) complete uninterrupted? Can other classes use dodge rolls after being stunned without using a break stun? Can other classes use dodge after being immobilized (a major counter to holosmith) without first cleansing it?

>

> The fact that mirage is capable of all three above puts them at a huge advantage to all the other classes. Its also the reason why mirage is such a forgiving class for less skilled players. It is very difficult to punish a mirage for slipping up.

 

No instead of having full access to their skills while dodging (the only aspect of mirage that is baseline) the classes mentioned have other things.

 

Holo has photon forge which is 5 exceptional skills and is basically a free kit which can also be traited to an incredible synergy and has some minor traits that are the envy of other classes.

 

Spellbreaker gets full counter, a free 1s no damage taken skill that then does good damage to enemies and interrupts them which synergises very well with the wealth of interrupt sigils added FOR THIS SPEC. Oh and is unblockable.

 

Scourge gets shades which are honestly not great on their own but the new skills that replace the shroud skills (which can be used at the same time as normal skills now and are instant cast) are second to none especially when it was first released or has everyone really forgotten how completely overpowered scourge really was and how much the desert shroud really adds to scourge. Traits are exceptional and much better than mirage line traits.

 

Firebrand I shouldn't have to explain, it got 15 new abilities and synergies that are second only to maybe holo. The tomes do it all, reflects, stab, resistance, heal, cleanse, CC, add damage.

 

I already explained in another thread or earlier that most traits in mirage aren't great or have components where you need other lines to really see the benefits, you can look that up as I don't post much now so won't be hard.

 

Edit: Forgot that 3/4 utilities brought with mirage are almost never used, yes the axe is better than other elite spec weapons but not by a lot and wasn't used for a long time.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> >How would removing the ability to dodge when stunned or immobilized nerf mirage to trash?

> I say . Its alrdy have plently of counters and if that ever happen they must undo all nerfs they have done xD

> Who said its not intended? Are you aneD dev? Even more they disabled mirage cloak on channeling buffs. So you pretty much wrong

> EM was nerfed not because anet aware of the 'problem' of low skilled players but because they crying endlessly all the time about EM , even still they want 20s exhaust .

 

I agree. Some of the nerfs were over the top. EM should only give 3s of exhaustion. Disabling mirage cloak on channeling buffs was a good change. It also falls under the realm of evading ["without interrupting any action"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak_(effect) ""without interrupting any action""). So, it was a known functionality and anet took action to limit it. Being stunned or immobilized is not an action, and yet mirage can dodge freely unlike all the other classes. EM already gives you this functionality too, which makes it redundant. Why shouldn't you have to take EM in order to evade after being stunned or immobilized? Currently id doesn't matter that EM gives 6s exhaustion because IH is better and mirage can already avoid being punished for stuns and immob by default.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> > @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > > @"Zex Anthon.8673" said:

> > >How would removing the ability to dodge when stunned or immobilized nerf mirage to trash?

> > I say . Its alrdy have plently of counters and if that ever happen they must undo all nerfs they have done xD

> > Who said its not intended? Are you aneD dev? Even more they disabled mirage cloak on channeling buffs. So you pretty much wrong

> > EM was nerfed not because anet aware of the 'problem' of low skilled players but because they crying endlessly all the time about EM , even still they want 20s exhaust .

>

> I agree. Some of the nerfs were over the top. EM should only give 3s of exhaustion. Disabling mirage cloak on channeling buffs was a good change. It also falls under the realm of evading ["without interrupting any action"](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mirage_Cloak_(effect) ""without interrupting any action""). So, it was a known functionality and anet took action to limit it. Being stunned or immobilized is not an action, and yet mirage can dodge freely unlike all the other classes. EM already gives you this functionality too, which makes it redundant. Why shouldn't you have to take EM in order to evade after being stunned or immobilized? Currently id doesn't matter that EM gives 6s exhaustion because IH is better and mirage can already avoid being punished for stuns and immob by default.

 

The heck you complainting about even? Its feature given by elite spec that otherwise is straight garbage. Its doesnt have any new mechanic like FB gets 15 new abilities and having superior support capabilies compred to any class in the game etc. And what mirage gets,dodge without animation and meme ambush which cost entire dodge bar but nerfed vigor while holos/thieves swim in it?

EM is dead trait now , dodge bleed trait NEVER EVER been taken for any game mode, neither PVE/PVP/wvw because guess what... its trash. Now ppl go after only 1 viable trait left .

I dont mind anet to re-introduce entire elite spec and making a new one instead of this

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I don't know what game some of you are playing but this one is plagued with skills with an evade built in.

Other professions have more evades than mirage.

For the guy arguing about EM, EM is trash no one plays it, exhaustion works with thief because they have access to endurance gain skills, it doesn't work with mirage, if ANet wants it to work with Mirage should slap in some endurance gain on some deception skills.

The part about dodging while stunned could be removed for all I care, said this once but will say it again, you're not losing due to this, instead of dodging mirages will use a stunbreak, jaunt, staff 2 or distortion.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @Majic.4801 said:

> > Please, _please_ say "Thief"! =)

>

> Don't you redirect this to us! D:

> Mesmers have slowly been bleeding into our territory! THEY TOOK OUR JERBS!

 

I remember the day thief was a hard counter to mesmer ... it was the good old damn time

 

More seriously, countering mesmer is harder now with mirage mechanics than it was back to that day :) being able to dodge while stun (not break stun so without EM) shouldn't be a thing. Same for target break ... those two mechanics (for my point of view) shouldn't be part of the game.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Yes and mirage should have to use stunbreak, jaunt, staff 2, or distortion instead of getting free dodges. Mirage condi spam is annoying and hard to avoid but it can be avoided. But, when I stun or immobilize a mirage they should have to use the tools already in place to deal with it instead of freely dodging to avoid the incoming burst.

 

The ability to stomp whilst evading is also broken. The closest thing to it is elixir s to stomp. The difference being elixir s has a long cooldown and uses a utility slot. Mirage cloak is tied to endurance which has a much lower equivalent cooldown and doesnt take up a utility slot. I would say at least give exhaustion when evading while executing a stomp.

[phokus.8934]

These nerf mirage threads are just red herrings and the people posting any complaint about mirage are bananas.

[Lucentfir.7430]

I still say Mirages shouldn't be able to dodge/mirage cloak while hard CC'd without Elusive Mind. It should have been that way from the get go. Doing actions while being in evade frames is one thing, not being punished for misplays by dodging for taking hard CC setup isn't something that should be a thing

[jportell.2197]

> @"Lucentfir.7430" said:

> I still say Mirages shouldn't be able to dodge/mirage cloak while hard CC'd without Elusive Mind. It should have been that way from the get go. Doing actions while being in evade frames is one thing, not being punished for misplays by dodging for taking hard CC setup isn't something that should be a thing

 

Most mesmer mains would agree with you. That is the only problem with mirage cloak to us.