More “paths” to legendary gear...

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > "And I'm asking you what that data would look like? I can't look for it if I have no idea what you want me to find."

>

> In other words, the developers have the data, think everything is fine.

> While random forum poster A says that everything is not fine, but without having any data.

>

> I'm out of here. have fun

 

Wow, do you really think Anet is going to announce "the sky is falling" .. Like.. for real?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> That's faulty logic. Again, it tells what people are doing, but not *why* they are doing it.

 

The *why* is impossible to get even with well designed polls.

You seem to miss the big changes that happened in the game over the years, they started with 1-time events, they figured somehow players didn't like them.

They went to 2-week schedule, they figured it wasn't ideal.

They said no expansions, they changed that.

They added Ascended because for a magical reason they deduced players were leaving because they didn't have anything to do.

It's not like their data hasn't been used in the past. If the same data show them that Raids aren't good for the game, they will stop developing them, the same way they stopped developing dungeons and fractals for a very long time because of the less than ideal reception of Thaumanova and Aetherpath.

Only after Raids did they see a reason to revisit instanced content (and create a NEW team to handle Fractal development)

 

All of their decisions have been data driven so I don't understand why believe that they won't do something if they see an actual problem, like they did so many times in the past. Why would it be different with Raids?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > "And I'm asking you what that data would look like? I can't look for it if I have no idea what you want me to find."

> >

> > In other words, the developers have the data, think everything is fine.

> > While random forum poster A says that everything is not fine, but without having any data.

> >

> > I'm out of here. have fun

>

> Wow, do you really think Anet is going to announce "the sky is falling" .. Like.. for real?

 

When Thaumanova and Aetherpath were released their reception with the community was bad. Both the dungeon and the fractal teams were dissolved early on and for a very long time we got zero instanced content. Do you think that happened for some magical reason or because they had data to suggest that instanced content wasn't working at the time?

On the other hand, after the release of Raids they created a brand new Fractals team that has given us more Fractals since Season 3 started than we got in the rest of the game's lifetime. That change was on a whim or they had data to suggest that players liked instanced content? Thanks to the success of Raids (it's been said by the developers that the percentage of players raiding exceeded their expectations.

It's the same with a bazillion other decisions they've made over the years, their love of e-sports in PVP, their promotion of Stronghold, Edge of the Mists, Desert Borderlands, One time content, temporary content and loads more. When something wasn't working they changed it, why do you think that Raids specifically will be different?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > and since we can't downvote the upvotes are useless.

> > Context seems to be a foreign word to you now doesn't it? The question was "where are all of the people that want to support it?", how many hypothetical downvotes there are is comepletly irrelevant to the topic at hand.

> >

> > It can't be that manny otherwise we would have seen at lest one person direcly arguing agganst the core idea of this thread. Also, I do agree with Ayrilana that many people probably don't care either way but thats beside the point.

>

> Again, you cannot reasonable claim this post is a viewpoint of a majority based on a system where only praise can be showcased.

> It could just as easily be the case that a post has 60 upvotes but would have had 120 downvotes and if that were the case we'd know where the actually support was.

>

 

The thing is, in this case downvotes wouldn't even be relevant. The question is "are people interested in this idea?" Well 60 people are, at least, which seems to be a fairly high number on these boards. The number of people uninterested aren't really relevant. It's like asking "how many of you want pizza?" and only 10% of the crowd raise their hands, well ok, 90% don't want pizza, but still, get that 10% their pizza, the other 90% can get whatever else they want.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > That's faulty logic. Again, it tells what people are doing, but not *why* they are doing it.

>

> The *why* is impossible to get even with well designed polls.

> You seem to miss the big changes that happened in the game over the years, they started with 1-time events, they figured somehow players didn't like them.

> They went to 2-week schedule, they figured it wasn't ideal.

> They said no expansions, they changed that.

> They added Ascended because for a magical reason they deduced players were leaving because they didn't have anything to do.

> It's not like their data hasn't been used in the past. If the same data show them that Raids aren't good for the game, they will stop developing them, the same way they stopped developing dungeons and fractals for a very long time because of the less than ideal reception of Thaumanova and Aetherpath.

> Only after Raids did they see a reason to revisit instanced content (and create a NEW team to handle Fractal development)

>

> All of their decisions have been data driven so I don't understand why believe that they won't do something if they see an actual problem, like they did so many times in the past. Why would it be different with Raids?

 

Just because they made a move does not mean that it was the best possible move they could have made, that "the data showed the way." The move they made is just the move they made, and it could have been the best, or worst, or more likely somewhere in between. Remember when they completely overhauled how Traits worked, presumably based on "the data?" And then remember when they completely overhauled them again a year or so later? Why didn't "the data" allow them to get it perfect the first time, if "the data" always leads to infallible decision-making. The data hints at things, but human interpretation decides what to do with the data.

 

It's possible that what the data is tracking is not leading them to believe that there's anything wrong with how raids work. It's possible for them to be wrong about that. It's possible for the data to be leading them to believe that raids have issues, but not the issues that are actually the problem. It's possible that the recognize the actual issues, but still believe that this is the right course of action, and want to try and make it work, iceberg be kittened. I'm not saying that my perspective on this is definitely right, but I believe that it is. All I know is that their perspective isn't definitely right either, it's just the one they're currently working from.

 

>All of their decisions have been data driven so I don't understand why believe that they won't do something if they see an actual problem, like they did so many times in the past. Why would it be different with Raids?

 

It's not different. Data could be leading them to make mistakes with raids just as it's led them to make mistakes in the past. Data is not perfect, much less the interpretation and reaction to that data.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Just because they made a move does not mean that it was the best possible move they could have made, that "the data showed the way."

 

There is no way to get it perfect anyway. All the data is showing is that you need to change something, how they proceed is how they feel is better at the time. The data change as the population also changes, nothing remains static.

 

> It's not different. Data could be leading them to make mistakes with raids just as it's led them to make mistakes in the past. Data is not perfect, much less the interpretation and reaction to that data.

>

 

And? They will believe and trust a forum post instead? If the data lead to mistakes and is not perfect then a forum post asking for a change on the forums has an even lower value.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Just because they made a move does not mean that it was the best possible move they could have made, that "the data showed the way."

>

> There is no way to get it perfect anyway. All the data is showing is that you need to change something, how they proceed is how they feel is better at the time. The data change as the population also changes, nothing remains static.

>

> > It's not different. Data could be leading them to make mistakes with raids just as it's led them to make mistakes in the past. Data is not perfect, much less the interpretation and reaction to that data.

> >

>

> And? They will believe and trust a forum post instead? If the data lead to mistakes and is not perfect then a forum post asking for a change on the forums has an even lower value.

 

Why?

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> They will believe and trust a forum post instead?

 

Why not.. they listened to all the people begging for raids and harder content, didn't they?

 

Your advice is to tell other people to deal or quit.. but you didn't do that..so why should they?

 

(in after thought, give how much sales dropped after HoT.. it does seem like a lot of people did take your sides advice and quit... maybe you and yours will get your wish and the last filthy Casual Hold outs Will also Leave, is that what you want?)

[flog.3485]

Hmm I don't think Anet will make any change based on the back to back arguments of only three players....Who turn out to be the same players that also back to back arguments in the past with the "Announcement of legendary gear as a raid reward" or "raid tiers LFG"

 

Now with the reality of what actually happen in the game from my pov: open world players are the majority of a casual subset of players who are active irl, which means they don't much have time to invest in the game, with no means of efficiently farming the game. They can go for some legendary items in the game but the few amount amount of legendary stuff to grind for in the game is already enough to not warrant legendary armor as a reward for this subset of players. They will go for shiny stuff as well but since they are active with a comfortable income I suppose, they might as well just spend extra money to get some gems. And the thing is, they will eventually do this because they like that little farming meta events that the game provide so much of, with varying degrees of skill and success.

 

Other than that they might as well do a little bit of fractals on the side and casually take their time to reach T4 as long as they can understand how the game is played and be good enough at the game.

 

Frankly it would just be better to have build templates. Since it is already easy to obtain gear in the game.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > If people really feel that legendary armor should be obtainable outside of raids then show how it might be done. **All I see is “we should get legendary armor” but never a solution.**

> > That's because you haven't read the whole thread then.

> >

>

> If you’re going to accuse me of not reading the thread then perhaps you should make sure that you have. This thread has been pretty much about wanting to get legendary armor outside of raids.

>

> All that I have seen is people complaining but they never provide a solution to how it could be implemented in-game so that it requires the same amount of dedication, skills, and effort as in raids.

 

Ofcourse not thats not for them to decide its for anet to figure out.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> (in after thought, give how much sales dropped after HoT.. it does seem like a lot of people did take your sides advice and quit... maybe you and yours will get your wish and the last filthy Casual Hold outs Will also Leave, is that what you want?)

 

And of course going Free 2 Play didn't affect the sales. Nor devaluing gold completely making acquisition of gems much easier. It was only the addition of Raids that led to the lower sales.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Why not.. they listened to all the people begging for raids and harder content, didn't they?

 

They didn't "listen" to all the people asking for Raids though. Long before Raids were added players were running 50+ Fractals and making speed clear dungeon runs.

Both required a level of commitment far above the rest of the game. Those players faithfully stayed in the game for years, running the same content over and over for better times and to see how high they could get in Fractals. Getting to 99 was a tough journey, unlike Raids or how it is now.

 

The decision to add Raids to the game wasn't because of forum posts and requests by players but was supported by the data.

That players were interested in that kind of hard content, only instead of finding near exploit ways of running it, they'd make actual good challenging content for them.

When the first Raid was released they expected a handful of players to play and enjoy it, the same types of players that did solo speed clears and reached level 99 in Fractals.

It was an experiment/risk to add content for that part of the player base, but the risk paid off because according to the developers themselves the participation exceeded their expectations. They also needed a big buzz word to attract new crowd for their expansion, just like how Path of Fire had another mmorpg favorite word: Mounts.

 

It wasn't forum threads that led to the addition of Raids, it was supported by the data that some part of the community liked that kind of challenge, plus they did it for marketing.

[Zappix.7928]

Vent/TS and working with a squad, along with specific builds and roles brings back the trinity in a new form, not so much tank/spank and heal but spank spank tank, buff bot, rinse and repeat this through each raid, a bit like the DoASC/FoWSC/UWSC in the original game. These things detract away from the original message of the game around launch and even post launch. It adds personal pressure to a player that doesn't want that, some gamers funnily enough in an MMO like playing by themselves or if they do group they like to be reclusive, I can be like that from time to time. Now raiding isn't really an issue for me, nor is the fast and efficient way for players to get through the raids. I can see the point OP is making and others. It doesn't harm raiders to expand ways to obtain legendary gear that isn't gated behind something similar to a HoH R-Spike (remember them?) And that's all raiding really is, it doesn't require much skill, you just learn the mechanics of it, know your role and listen to people on vent, sometimes getting a load of screaming because someone (probably them) has messed up. I also understand the people that have obtained legendary gear with LI's don't want to feel like what they've earned is diminished by expanding the ways to obtain this armor. However, maybe like with those legendary bandit executioners, something similar like that could be implemented, that doesn't require a squad, that is open world, that everyone can hop in, a special event of some kind and earn some kind of tribute/token that can be used for various things (for those that already have legendary gear) and used as a way to make legendary gear. Not everyone will be happy about it but expanding ways to make things obtainable isn't a bad thing imo.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Why not.. they listened to all the people begging for raids and harder content, didn't they?

>

> They didn't "listen" to all the people asking for Raids though. Long before Raids were added players were running 50+ Fractals and making speed clear dungeon runs.

> Both required a level of commitment far above the rest of the game. Those players faithfully stayed in the game for years, running the same content over and over for better times and to see how high they could get in Fractals. Getting to 99 was a tough journey, unlike Raids or how it is now.

>

> The decision to add Raids to the game wasn't because of forum posts and requests by players but was supported by the data.

> That players were interested in that kind of hard content, only instead of finding near exploit ways of running it, they'd make actual good challenging content for them.

> When the first Raid was released they expected a handful of players to play and enjoy it, the same types of players that did solo speed clears and reached level 99 in Fractals.

> It was an experiment/risk to add content for that part of the player base, but the risk paid off because according to the developers themselves the participation exceeded their expectations. They also needed a big buzz word to attract new crowd for their expansion, just like how Path of Fire had another mmorpg favorite word: Mounts.

>

> It wasn't forum threads that led to the addition of Raids, it was supported by the data that some part of the community liked that kind of challenge, plus they did it for marketing.

 

yah.. data and marketing.. notice that drop in sales over the past 2 years since HoT and raids came out... That went well... Must have been all that data telling them it was gonna be a great idea to lose 8 million per quarter on average.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> yah.. marketing.. notice that drop in sales over the past 2 years since HoT and raids came out... That went well.. Must have been all that data telling them it was gonna be a great idea to lose 8 million per quarter on average.

 

I wonder if the game went free at around that same time.

Oh it did.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > yah.. marketing.. notice that drop in sales over the past 2 years since HoT and raids came out... That went well.. Must have been all that data telling them it was gonna be a great idea to lose 8 million per quarter on average.

>

> I wonder if the game went free at around that same time.

> Oh it did.

 

Why yes it did.. an LOOK.. no one Bought HoT with it's Raids the way they bought Core... with it's cake walk easy content. Hummm.. yup.. Data told them it was gonna be a GREAT idea.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

> @"Shard.4791" said:

> How about raiders get their raid only legendaries (legendary armor is not raid only) and jumping puzzle players get their own (dead serious). The only crowd that's hard to create a legendary for is roleplayers.

 

- Walking instead of running everywhere

- Staying in one place for an extended period of time and using emotes

- Always consuming food and drink in a timely fashion

- Frequent use of the phrase "well met traveller"

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > yah.. marketing.. notice that drop in sales over the past 2 years since HoT and raids came out... That went well.. Must have been all that data telling them it was gonna be a great idea to lose 8 million per quarter on average.

> >

> > I wonder if the game went free at around that same time.

> > Oh it did.

>

> Why yes it did.. an LOOK.. no one Bought HoT with it's Raids the way they bought Core... with it's cake walk easy content. Hummm.. yup.. Data told them it was gonna be a GREAT idea.

 

How would anyone know how Raids were without buying the game? Oh wait they couldn't.

On the other hand now that players didn't have to BUY Core to try the game and instead tried it for free, got bored and quit playing.

Players getting bored and leaving because the free version couldn't grab their attention (too easy/casual)

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > yah.. marketing.. notice that drop in sales over the past 2 years since HoT and raids came out... That went well.. Must have been all that data telling them it was gonna be a great idea to lose 8 million per quarter on average.

> > >

> > > I wonder if the game went free at around that same time.

> > > Oh it did.

> >

> > Why yes it did.. an LOOK.. no one Bought HoT with it's Raids the way they bought Core... with it's cake walk easy content. Hummm.. yup.. Data told them it was gonna be a GREAT idea.

>

> How would anyone know how Raids were without buying the game? Oh wait they couldn't.

> On the other hand now that players didn't have to BUY Core to try the game and instead tried it for free, got bored and quit playing.

> Players getting bored and leaving because the free version couldn't grab their attention (too easy/casual)

 

Core is Free anyone can just Log in and play. Socialize, talk, join a guild, etc.

 

With that said... Do you realize that you just told me that your demographics is incapable of having the social skills to learn about HoT even after they logged into the game?

 

Ok.. I guess I'll just have to take your word on that.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Core is Free anyone can just Log in and play. Socialize, talk, join a guild, etc.

>

 

Core is free means no money for Anet. The Guild Wars 2 Heroic Edition was still selling when the game went free to play and that revenue stream was cut.

Core going free also meant players didn't have to spend money before they could test the game.

 

 

[Xillllix.3485]

I wish they would just make the new precursors drop as well as make it possible to sell the new legendary. Also dungeons, raids, fractals: they all need difficulty settings with relative rewards.

[Torolan.5816]

As I already mentioned before, data collection campaigns are not like a device for clairvoyancy. Companies back themselves into corners quite often, have to suffer under chief operatives with visions and they also have to make educated guesses from available data. If not, no company over a certain size would ever go bancrupt, just ask anyone from Lehmann Brothers how being a giant bank of all businesses worked out for them in that aspect.

 

Regarding Anet, look how long it took them to give up on ESport. Or how long they tried to push people into harder content and still do. In my personal opinion that is not healthy for a game that wanted to provide a come as you are philosophy, and for the sake of my enjoyment and the general direction of the game I hope raids stop to get support. I know that this sucks for some players, but that´s how i feel.

 

Maybe the time of casual MMOs on PCs is up, and I simply fail to see how a portable game the size of a pill box that you play while sitting in the bus is superior to a game with a real screen and time at your disposal. But I am not ready to give up yet.

[Rikkagin.9472]

Before I came to GW2 I was playing a game that had exclusive, best, items obtainable ONLY by doing the latest raid cluster.

I accepted it silently, since that was the way of ALL MMORPGs I had played. Then I discovered GW2, a game in which I could get the best gear, exotics, then later ascended, by playing solo/ casual. I could even get a legendary this way by accumulating gold and buying it, if I wanted to.

 

This is no longer the case. GW2 has changed, and in my opinion, not for the better. I left the former game because of it's archaic reward structure to GW2, and adherence to an outmoded MMORPG paradigm. GW2 was once a breath of fresh air to a stale gaming genre, but that is fully true.

 

I am currently playing another game, one with a different reward structure. Can't really say when, or if, I'll return to GW2.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Rikkagin.9472" said:

> Before I came to GW2 I was playing a game that had exclusive, best, items obtainable ONLY by doing the latest raid cluster.

> I accepted it silently, since that was the way of ALL MMORPGs I had played. Then I discovered GW2, a game in which I could get the best gear, exotics, then later ascended, by playing solo/ casual. I could even get a legendary this way by accumulating gold and buying it, if I wanted to.

>

> This is no longer the case. GW2 has changed, and in my opinion, not for the better. I left the former game because of it's archaic reward structure to GW2, and adherence to an outmoded MMORPG paradigm. GW2 was once a breath of fresh air to a stale gaming genre, but that is fully true.

>

> I am currently playing another game, one with a different reward structure. Can't really say when, or if, I'll return to GW2.

 

Unlike other games, legendary tier weapons/armor offer no stat advantages over ascended. All players get are unique skins (which every mode has others locked behind it) and the ability to stat swap out of combat. You currently can stat swap ascended using the mystic forge at a cost that is much less than it costs to acquire the legendary unless you swaps stats often.

[Lunateric.3708]

> @"Rikkagin.9472" said:

> Before I came to GW2 I was playing a game that had exclusive, best, items obtainable ONLY by doing the latest raid cluster.

> I accepted it silently, since that was the way of ALL MMORPGs I had played. Then I discovered GW2, a game in which I could get the best gear, exotics, then later ascended, by playing solo/ casual. I could even get a legendary this way by accumulating gold and buying it, if I wanted to.

>

> This is no longer the case. GW2 has changed, and in my opinion, not for the better. I left the former game because of it's archaic reward structure to GW2, and adherence to an outmoded MMORPG paradigm. GW2 was once a breath of fresh air to a stale gaming genre, but that is fully true.

>

> I am currently playing another game, one with a different reward structure. Can't really say when, or if, I'll return to GW2.

 

That's cool but legendary is stat-wise identical to ascended in every way so you should clarify in your argument it's an aesthetic need rather than paint it as a gear upgrade.

 

Enjoy your other game!

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> Unlike other games, legendary tier weapons/armor offer no stat advantages over ascended.

 

Nobody cares about that. It offers unique skins, that's the important part, and if anyone disagrees that this is something that non-raiders should care about, then surely they would be 100% fine with non-raiders being able to obtain them elsewhere.

 

>All players get are unique skins (which every mode has others locked behind it) and the ability to stat swap out of combat.

 

Which they want, and resent having these things kept from them for good reason.

 

>You currently can stat swap ascended using the mystic forge at a cost that is much less than it costs to acquire the legendary unless you swaps stats often.

 

Irrelevant to the conversation.