zealex.9410 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > Well.. I missed the WoW Train Wreck .. would have been great see the discussions that happened right before the fall. In either case, I am enjoying watching this train wreck, and seeing the way the game is killing itself. What trainwreck exactly? Legion has prob been the best expac in terms of raiding and one of the best expacs overall in a long long time. And no its not thanks to lfr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > Well.. I missed the WoW Train Wreck .. would have been great see the discussions that happened right before the fall. In either case, I am enjoying watching this train wreck, and seeing the way the game is killing itself. > > What trainwreck exactly? Legion has prob been the best expac in terms of raiding and one of the best expacs overall in a long long time. > > And no its not thanks to lfr. Glad you think so.. so how does WoW feel sans 7 million players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 As a reminder, we're talking about the following observation, which you challenged. > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > After launch, revenue fluctuated through 2013, but the overall trend is down (with a spike up in the 2013 holiday 4th quarter). Once into 2014, the downward trend continues, then plateaus into 2015 with the HoT announcement... > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > Actually, Ok let me help you out, and draw you the Graph. > >  > > Now, take a look, you can see there was a minor decline, more a dip then a trend. > > Then you can see clearly what the earnings looked like after HoT. Now, that is a downward Trend, picture perfect example of it as well. Nice graph. You've managed to compress the y axis by including Q4 12, with its massive box sales, rather than restricting the comparison to 2013 thru 2014, which is the period you challenged. Even so, at no time since Q1 13 is a peak quarter higher than the prior peak quarter until Q4 15, with the HoT release sales numbers. That is what constitutes an overall downtrend. It doesn't have to be continual reductions to qualify. Let's reconnect to the topic, as difficult as that may be at this point. You raise the point that exclusive access to L. Items is bad for the game. You point to the revenue reductions. However, you make no allowances for a variety of mitigating factors: money spent by raiders that would not have been spent absent raids; the percentage of the PvE playerbase who don't care about L. Items; whether the revenue reduction due to Envoy L. Armor lockout is significant (data we just don't have); and the attrition in player numbers seen in a lot of games as those games age. You believe one thing. The raiders believe something else. What's likely is that there is some truth in both sides, with the reality -- were we able to track it -- somewhere in between, though just where on the continuum is anyone's guess. Mine is that the impact on revenue from the departure of the disaffected is there, but _might_ be counterbalanced by revenue brought in due to raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > Well.. I missed the WoW Train Wreck .. would have been great see the discussions that happened right before the fall. In either case, I am enjoying watching this train wreck, and seeing the way the game is killing itself. > > > > What trainwreck exactly? Legion has prob been the best expac in terms of raiding and one of the best expacs overall in a long long time. > > > > And no its not thanks to lfr. > > Glad you think so.. so how does WoW feel sans 7 million players? As i said its the best expac the game had since wrath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rajani Isa.6294 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > > > > > > > > > > "suffer heavily" is due player perception not reality or design choices. Sure its harder and hence less accessible but the degree ppl make it out to be is overblown to say the least. > > > > > > > > Player perception is formed through game-design. MMORPGs are all about manipulating their players. It's also not just purely because of player perception. It's also because of actual design-choices like only having trinity-gameplay in raids, having a strong contrast in difficulty between OW-content and raids (which aren't really hard compared to other MMORPGs), the ability to easily exclude people through the ability to post LI/KP and stuff like the absolutely terrible class-balance in PvE. > > > > > > Class balance is not terrible for 1, kp/li are meassures for players to get ppl of the experiemce they want for the task and theres nothing wrong with that. > > > > > > It is forced perception from the ideas players have of other games and create this image in their heads that is in no way indicative of the actual raid. > > > > > > Also trinity isnt required but for some bosses. > > > > * The class-balance in PvE is absolutely terrible having Chrono and Druid as the worst offenders. Denying this fact is pure nihilism. > > * The KP/LI-stuff is pure bull**it. The discriminating factor should always be skill and both KP/LI are neither a proof of skill nor for the lack of skill. KP/LI "hard"-lock people out of content while people in more traditional MMORPGs are only "soft"-locked out of content since gear-progression is mostly also bound to difficulty-progression. ANet failed to implement a natural and intuitive way into raiding-content. You simply don't have the huge and atrocious pseudo-elitism GW2 offers in most other MMORPGs which are focused on instanced PvE. > > * The trinity is required for every single raid-encounter since the trinity in GW2 isn't just your typical tank/heal/dps-trinity but also the hugely broken support-trinity consisting of the worst offenders of GW2s massive PvE-inbalance. > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > > > > > > Thankfully, wvw and pvp also offer leggy armor. Anyone can do those at a slow pace. Not just raiding. Unless people want the exclusive skins > > > > Not everyone likes to do PvP and/or WvW. Especially WvW is dependent on your own server. There should be accessible legendary armor in every of the three game-modes. I'm not even against raid-locked legendary armor. I'm just against the huge inaccessibility of raiding-content which is a serious problem. > > And i asked for a way to get the exploration gifts, as a wvwer. I dont like open world map exploration, much like an OW pver dislikes wvw. Why should i not get a reward track of map exploration, to do it several times to get what i want, without leaving the game mode i like? Because a Track of Map Exploration would be easier - by far - than the current way of getting the Gifts of Exploration. Even doing the track twice, to get two as you do when doing it now, would be far easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"Rajani Isa.6294" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > "suffer heavily" is due player perception not reality or design choices. Sure its harder and hence less accessible but the degree ppl make it out to be is overblown to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > Player perception is formed through game-design. MMORPGs are all about manipulating their players. It's also not just purely because of player perception. It's also because of actual design-choices like only having trinity-gameplay in raids, having a strong contrast in difficulty between OW-content and raids (which aren't really hard compared to other MMORPGs), the ability to easily exclude people through the ability to post LI/KP and stuff like the absolutely terrible class-balance in PvE. > > > > > > > > Class balance is not terrible for 1, kp/li are meassures for players to get ppl of the experiemce they want for the task and theres nothing wrong with that. > > > > > > > > It is forced perception from the ideas players have of other games and create this image in their heads that is in no way indicative of the actual raid. > > > > > > > > Also trinity isnt required but for some bosses. > > > > > > * The class-balance in PvE is absolutely terrible having Chrono and Druid as the worst offenders. Denying this fact is pure nihilism. > > > * The KP/LI-stuff is pure bull**it. The discriminating factor should always be skill and both KP/LI are neither a proof of skill nor for the lack of skill. KP/LI "hard"-lock people out of content while people in more traditional MMORPGs are only "soft"-locked out of content since gear-progression is mostly also bound to difficulty-progression. ANet failed to implement a natural and intuitive way into raiding-content. You simply don't have the huge and atrocious pseudo-elitism GW2 offers in most other MMORPGs which are focused on instanced PvE. > > > * The trinity is required for every single raid-encounter since the trinity in GW2 isn't just your typical tank/heal/dps-trinity but also the hugely broken support-trinity consisting of the worst offenders of GW2s massive PvE-inbalance. > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > > > > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > > > > > > > > Thankfully, wvw and pvp also offer leggy armor. Anyone can do those at a slow pace. Not just raiding. Unless people want the exclusive skins > > > > > > Not everyone likes to do PvP and/or WvW. Especially WvW is dependent on your own server. There should be accessible legendary armor in every of the three game-modes. I'm not even against raid-locked legendary armor. I'm just against the huge inaccessibility of raiding-content which is a serious problem. > > > > And i asked for a way to get the exploration gifts, as a wvwer. I dont like open world map exploration, much like an OW pver dislikes wvw. Why should i not get a reward track of map exploration, to do it several times to get what i want, without leaving the game mode i like? > > Because a Track of Map Exploration would be easier - by far - than the current way of getting the Gifts of Exploration. > > Even doing the track twice, to get two as you do when doing it now, would be far easier. I would say it would be 1 track for each region. Ascalon Kryta Maguuma Jungle Shiverpeak Mountains Ruins of Orr For core exploration for example. And then you have to finish it 1 time for each map in said region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > Actually, Ok let me help you out, and draw you the Graph. > >  > > Nice graph. You've managed to compress the y axis by including Q4 12, with its massive box sales, rather than restricting the comparison to 2013 thru 2014, which is the period you challenged. Even so, at no time since Q1 13 is a peak quarter higher than the prior peak quarter until Q4 15, with the HoT release sales numbers. That is what constitutes an overall downtrend. It doesn't have to be continual reductions to qualify. > It was just easier to use all the numbers as I had them on file already, try not to read too much into it. But if it bothered you that much, here is a smaller one..that just address what we are talking about, I even added dates to this one to make it a bit more clear. See the rebound curve before HoT.. and then the Dead Drop after. It's pretty clear that something went really wrong after HoT that hurt them fiscally.  > Let's reconnect to the topic, as difficult as that may be at this point. You raise the point that exclusive access to L. Items is bad for the game. You point to the revenue reductions. However, you make no allowances for a variety of mitigating factors: money spent by raiders that would not have been spent absent raids; the percentage of the PvE playerbase who don't care about L. Items; whether the revenue reduction due to Envoy L. Armor lockout is significant (data we just don't have); and the attrition in player numbers seen in a lot of games as those games age. > > You believe one thing. The raiders believe something else. What's likely is that there is some truth in both sides, with the reality -- were we able to track it -- somewhere in between, though just where on the continuum is anyone's guess. Mine is that the impact on revenue from the departure of the disaffected is there, but _might_ be counterbalanced by revenue brought in due to raids. Here is the thing. And these are the facts I have. Sales **Dropped Hard** directly after HoT. This is very clear from the numbers and charts. So, whatever went wrong, it had something to do with HoT directly. Also, funds are in a slow direct decent with zero spikes. PoF, (from the data I have) has much lower sales then HoT. Right now, a lot of things will hinge on the Q1-2018 to get a better look of things, and how trends might be. But, as it stands, Raids have been a issue of contention with this game, So is stands to reason they are at the very least, a part of the problem. With that said, I highly doubt Raids in GW2 are pulling in much in the way of numbers, as to even access them would require someone to buy HoT and, even MO admitted those sales were not as good as they had hoped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"Rajani Isa.6294" said: > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "suffer heavily" is due player perception not reality or design choices. Sure its harder and hence less accessible but the degree ppl make it out to be is overblown to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > > > Player perception is formed through game-design. MMORPGs are all about manipulating their players. It's also not just purely because of player perception. It's also because of actual design-choices like only having trinity-gameplay in raids, having a strong contrast in difficulty between OW-content and raids (which aren't really hard compared to other MMORPGs), the ability to easily exclude people through the ability to post LI/KP and stuff like the absolutely terrible class-balance in PvE. > > > > > > > > > > Class balance is not terrible for 1, kp/li are meassures for players to get ppl of the experiemce they want for the task and theres nothing wrong with that. > > > > > > > > > > It is forced perception from the ideas players have of other games and create this image in their heads that is in no way indicative of the actual raid. > > > > > > > > > > Also trinity isnt required but for some bosses. > > > > > > > > * The class-balance in PvE is absolutely terrible having Chrono and Druid as the worst offenders. Denying this fact is pure nihilism. > > > > * The KP/LI-stuff is pure bull**it. The discriminating factor should always be skill and both KP/LI are neither a proof of skill nor for the lack of skill. KP/LI "hard"-lock people out of content while people in more traditional MMORPGs are only "soft"-locked out of content since gear-progression is mostly also bound to difficulty-progression. ANet failed to implement a natural and intuitive way into raiding-content. You simply don't have the huge and atrocious pseudo-elitism GW2 offers in most other MMORPGs which are focused on instanced PvE. > > > > * The trinity is required for every single raid-encounter since the trinity in GW2 isn't just your typical tank/heal/dps-trinity but also the hugely broken support-trinity consisting of the worst offenders of GW2s massive PvE-inbalance. > > > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > > > > > > > > > > Thankfully, wvw and pvp also offer leggy armor. Anyone can do those at a slow pace. Not just raiding. Unless people want the exclusive skins > > > > > > > > Not everyone likes to do PvP and/or WvW. Especially WvW is dependent on your own server. There should be accessible legendary armor in every of the three game-modes. I'm not even against raid-locked legendary armor. I'm just against the huge inaccessibility of raiding-content which is a serious problem. > > > > > > And i asked for a way to get the exploration gifts, as a wvwer. I dont like open world map exploration, much like an OW pver dislikes wvw. Why should i not get a reward track of map exploration, to do it several times to get what i want, without leaving the game mode i like? > > > > Because a Track of Map Exploration would be easier - by far - than the current way of getting the Gifts of Exploration. > > > > Even doing the track twice, to get two as you do when doing it now, would be far easier. > > I would say it would be 1 track for each region. > Ascalon > Kryta > Maguuma Jungle > Shiverpeak Mountains > Ruins of Orr > For core exploration for example. > And then you have to finish it 1 time for each map in said region. Brilliant! This is an awesome idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rajani Isa.6294 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. One could argue some POIs and vistas suffer from accessibility issues :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"Rajani Isa.6294" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > One could argue some POIs and vistas suffer from accessibility issues :) > and that would be a very bad argument, as all of them can be done solo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > stuff > It was just easier to use all the numbers as I had them on file already, try not to read too much into it. > > But if it bothered you that much, here is a smaller one..that just address what we are talking about, I even added dates to this one to make it a bit more clear. > > See the rebound curve before HoT My take on that is that the HoT announcement rekindled enough interest in the game to keep people around. > .. and then the Dead Drop after. > It's pretty clear that something went really wrong after HoT that hurt them fiscally. > >  > > Here is the thing. And these are the facts I have. > > Sales **Dropped Hard** directly after HoT. This is very clear from the numbers and charts. So, whatever went wrong, it had something to do with HoT directly. > Also, funds are in a slow direct decent with zero spikes. I don't read too much into that. As games age, it takes renewed interest in the game to generate a revenue spike. There was a steady descent throughout 2014 as well, which ended with a small rebound during the HoT hype. Just as there is a fall followed by a shallower descent once HoT was old news. PoF was announced and released in the same quarter, so any benefit from the hype would be obscured by the actual release numbers. > PoF, (from the data I have) has much lower sales then HoT. Revenue numbers, yes. Box numbers, maybe, but the lower price is also a factor. The thing is, the game has been bleeding players for a long time. Each change to the game has angered some demographic. I very much believe that all of those changes contributed to people leaving and thus lower revenue. HoT brought a lot more changes to the game than just raids and Envoy Armor. I believe the number of players who left due to one aspect of HoT or another is quite significant as a whole. I also doubt whether every one of those changes is -- in itself -- significant. Finally, I believe that the things that were complained about at the time were more significant then than things that are being complained about now. However, whether current complaints will have a significant impact going forward from here is anyone's guess. > Right now, a lot of things will hinge on the Q1-2018 to get a better look of things, and how trends might be. Yes, I am curious to see where revenue goes next. Will higher-priced bundles and individual mount skins help in keeping revenue higher than pre-PoF once PoF box sales are less of a factor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "suffer heavily" is due player perception not reality or design choices. Sure its harder and hence less accessible but the degree ppl make it out to be is overblown to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Player perception is formed through game-design. MMORPGs are all about manipulating their players. It's also not just purely because of player perception. It's also because of actual design-choices like only having trinity-gameplay in raids, having a strong contrast in difficulty between OW-content and raids (which aren't really hard compared to other MMORPGs), the ability to easily exclude people through the ability to post LI/KP and stuff like the absolutely terrible class-balance in PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Class balance is not terrible for 1, kp/li are meassures for players to get ppl of the experiemce they want for the task and theres nothing wrong with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is forced perception from the ideas players have of other games and create this image in their heads that is in no way indicative of the actual raid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also trinity isnt required but for some bosses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * The class-balance in PvE is absolutely terrible having Chrono and Druid as the worst offenders. Denying this fact is pure nihilism. > > > > > > > > * The KP/LI-stuff is pure bull**it. The discriminating factor should always be skill and both KP/LI are neither a proof of skill nor for the lack of skill. KP/LI "hard"-lock people out of content while people in more traditional MMORPGs are only "soft"-locked out of content since gear-progression is mostly also bound to difficulty-progression. ANet failed to implement a natural and intuitive way into raiding-content. You simply don't have the huge and atrocious pseudo-elitism GW2 offers in most other MMORPGs which are focused on instanced PvE. > > > > > > > > * The trinity is required for every single raid-encounter since the trinity in GW2 isn't just your typical tank/heal/dps-trinity but also the hugely broken support-trinity consisting of the worst offenders of GW2s massive PvE-inbalance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankfully, wvw and pvp also offer leggy armor. Anyone can do those at a slow pace. Not just raiding. Unless people want the exclusive skins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not everyone likes to do PvP and/or WvW. Especially WvW is dependent on your own server. There should be accessible legendary armor in every of the three game-modes. I'm not even against raid-locked legendary armor. I'm just against the huge inaccessibility of raiding-content which is a serious problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to play a healer you can play any of the others since only 1 druid is required. If you want to play a tank well yes chrono is meta. If you want to play dps play what ever. Ye sounds terrible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow has achievements blocking you from joining groups in top of gearscore. None is entitled to join every group, ppl have the right to set their own group requirement. If you dont like it make your own group or join groups that dont have so big entey fee. Stop looking for an easy carry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol it is highly suggested that you bring a healer in fractals as well and chrono just makes it easier. You either have a problem with trinity or the classes that said trinity promotes not both. If you hate that bringing a chrono or a druid in a raid is highly highly advised then dont play chrono or druid play one of the other roles in the raid. > > > > > > > > > > > > * Yes, of course I can play other healing-specializations than druid. Will I get accepted that way though? No, of course not, because it's not just that Druid already has the image of being the main-healer of the game, thus people will almost always prioritize Druids over every other healing-specialization, it's also that Druid brings a lot of vital utilities just like Chrono being also over-utilized making these two specializations awfully overpowered in PvE-content. I don't sound terrible, the balance in PvE is in fact horrible. > > > > > > * I'd rather have certain achievements and a certain gearscore (maybe full ascended in the case of GW2) as entry-requirements than a bazillion LI/KP. Yeah, of course people have the right to set their own requirements. Is it healthy for the game and its community though if nearly every single LFG consists of stuff like "100+ LI/20 KP"? No, of course not, since that hard-locks people out of content and disrupts the natural mentoring-circle which is essential for every MMORPG. It's not about being carried through content. It's about the realistic (!) chance to get into content. > > > > > > * Your third point disregards reality. If you'd take a look into the LFG at any time, you'd see that it's mostly Chronos and Druids people search since these specializations don't have adequate alternatives thus locking almost always 4 out of 10 slots. That 2 out of 18 elite-specializations (that's even ignoring core-builds) - 11% - make out 40% (!) of your typical squad-composition is just awful game-design and it's even worse in fractals! The Chrono/Druid-Supremacy is a major problem this game and especially raid-content suffers from. > > > > > > > > > > 3/10 slots*. Also if you cant join a group with 150 li requirement thats fine make a group of your own or find a guild and raid with them. > > > > > > > > > > No matter how much you say it 2 classes being more sought after. 1 more so than the other doesnt make the balance horrible. because at the end out of the 10 raid spots they take 3 spots and u dont even need them to complete the content. > > > > > > > > No, 4 out of 10 slots since your second subgroup also needs a healer and that will almost always be druid to make perma-might easier. (3 out of 10 is already awful.) You also seem to forget basic human nature and especially what the general MMORPG-audience has degenerated into. People mostly play games for the feeling of progress/being rewarded nowadays and not for the general gaming-experience anymore. Just look at stuff like the "monday clear"-mentality or people who are whining when they need more than an hour for daily fractals and cms. For a lot of people, MMORPGs sadly have become some sort of second job. Couple that with the general design of GW2 which doesn't force people to carry their own weight in most parts of the game and you'll see why the raiding-community is as secluded as it is. Decent players will probably always be suspicious about LFGs without some sort LI/KP-requirement. Finding a decent raiding-guild is also comparatively hard since almost every guild requires you to play multiple classes and that you already have a certain number of LI/KP. That's why this game is in dire need of a decent guild-browser (also considering the upcoming WvW-restructuring), because forums are always only used by a minority. > > > > > > > > ...and yeah, probably the majority of people will agree with me that the game is utterly unbalanced in regards of the Chrono/Druid-Supremacy. I mean, it isn't just the overtuned offensive support which approx. doubles everyones dps, it's also the overtuned defensive support and utilities. > > > > > > I agree that a guild browser would be bae but thats quite diff from "make an easy mode and give lgenedary armor from there too" > > > > Again: It's not about easy-mode-raids, it's about the realistic chance to get into raiding-content in the first place. > > Its pretty high just join a training guild and get the first few li from there. Upload some log on the raiding thingy so you get a name out for your performance and then join a group. It's not high. This game is missing publicity. You rarely find training-guilds via forum since the forum is only used by a mostly hardcore-minority. Even then, most training-guilds are looking for your typical "shortage"-classes like Chrono and Druid (yes, the game is unbalanced) or started to have LI/KP-requirements too. It's not different ingame either: The LFG-tool is far from being helpful and even if people are looking for members that way, the LFGs suffer from the same issues like the LFGs in the forum. To make the situation worse: The job-mentality the modern MMORPG-community has also leads to even training-groups wanting to clear every possible wing thus raiding during the week is mandatory which is often fairly impossible if you aren't a NEET. Not just that, groupfinding also suffers from the inavailability of a "world-chat" and the megaserver-architecture GW2 offers. To increase publicity and to increase accessibility, - again - this game is in dire need of a decent guild-browser. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > Well.. I missed the WoW Train Wreck .. would have been great see the discussions that happened right before the fall. In either case, I am enjoying watching this train wreck, and seeing the way the game is killing itself. > > What trainwreck exactly? Legion has prob been the best expac in terms of raiding and one of the best expacs overall in a long long time. > > And no its not thanks to lfr. Legion is one of the worst expansions WoW has to offer, especially in terms of raiding. Legendaries with RNG-stats led to people having to raid with multiple characters of the same class to increase their chance to get decent gear. People had to play the game as a job rather than for fun which is obviously not healthy for the game. It's not just that, it's also the skill-pruning that led to your damage being mostly dependant on gear rather than skill. It's no wonder Activision Blizzard had to give in to finally open up Vanilla-servers after Legion ultimately flopped. > @"Rajani Isa.6294" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > One could argue some POIs and vistas suffer from accessibility issues :) > Please what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "suffer heavily" is due player perception not reality or design choices. Sure its harder and hence less accessible but the degree ppl make it out to be is overblown to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Player perception is formed through game-design. MMORPGs are all about manipulating their players. It's also not just purely because of player perception. It's also because of actual design-choices like only having trinity-gameplay in raids, having a strong contrast in difficulty between OW-content and raids (which aren't really hard compared to other MMORPGs), the ability to easily exclude people through the ability to post LI/KP and stuff like the absolutely terrible class-balance in PvE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Class balance is not terrible for 1, kp/li are meassures for players to get ppl of the experiemce they want for the task and theres nothing wrong with that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is forced perception from the ideas players have of other games and create this image in their heads that is in no way indicative of the actual raid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also trinity isnt required but for some bosses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * The class-balance in PvE is absolutely terrible having Chrono and Druid as the worst offenders. Denying this fact is pure nihilism. > > > > > > > > > * The KP/LI-stuff is pure bull**it. The discriminating factor should always be skill and both KP/LI are neither a proof of skill nor for the lack of skill. KP/LI "hard"-lock people out of content while people in more traditional MMORPGs are only "soft"-locked out of content since gear-progression is mostly also bound to difficulty-progression. ANet failed to implement a natural and intuitive way into raiding-content. You simply don't have the huge and atrocious pseudo-elitism GW2 offers in most other MMORPGs which are focused on instanced PvE. > > > > > > > > > * The trinity is required for every single raid-encounter since the trinity in GW2 isn't just your typical tank/heal/dps-trinity but also the hugely broken support-trinity consisting of the worst offenders of GW2s massive PvE-inbalance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankfully, wvw and pvp also offer leggy armor. Anyone can do those at a slow pace. Not just raiding. Unless people want the exclusive skins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not everyone likes to do PvP and/or WvW. Especially WvW is dependent on your own server. There should be accessible legendary armor in every of the three game-modes. I'm not even against raid-locked legendary armor. I'm just against the huge inaccessibility of raiding-content which is a serious problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to play a healer you can play any of the others since only 1 druid is required. If you want to play a tank well yes chrono is meta. If you want to play dps play what ever. Ye sounds terrible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wow has achievements blocking you from joining groups in top of gearscore. None is entitled to join every group, ppl have the right to set their own group requirement. If you dont like it make your own group or join groups that dont have so big entey fee. Stop looking for an easy carry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol it is highly suggested that you bring a healer in fractals as well and chrono just makes it easier. You either have a problem with trinity or the classes that said trinity promotes not both. If you hate that bringing a chrono or a druid in a raid is highly highly advised then dont play chrono or druid play one of the other roles in the raid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Yes, of course I can play other healing-specializations than druid. Will I get accepted that way though? No, of course not, because it's not just that Druid already has the image of being the main-healer of the game, thus people will almost always prioritize Druids over every other healing-specialization, it's also that Druid brings a lot of vital utilities just like Chrono being also over-utilized making these two specializations awfully overpowered in PvE-content. I don't sound terrible, the balance in PvE is in fact horrible. > > > > > > > * I'd rather have certain achievements and a certain gearscore (maybe full ascended in the case of GW2) as entry-requirements than a bazillion LI/KP. Yeah, of course people have the right to set their own requirements. Is it healthy for the game and its community though if nearly every single LFG consists of stuff like "100+ LI/20 KP"? No, of course not, since that hard-locks people out of content and disrupts the natural mentoring-circle which is essential for every MMORPG. It's not about being carried through content. It's about the realistic (!) chance to get into content. > > > > > > > * Your third point disregards reality. If you'd take a look into the LFG at any time, you'd see that it's mostly Chronos and Druids people search since these specializations don't have adequate alternatives thus locking almost always 4 out of 10 slots. That 2 out of 18 elite-specializations (that's even ignoring core-builds) - 11% - make out 40% (!) of your typical squad-composition is just awful game-design and it's even worse in fractals! The Chrono/Druid-Supremacy is a major problem this game and especially raid-content suffers from. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3/10 slots*. Also if you cant join a group with 150 li requirement thats fine make a group of your own or find a guild and raid with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > No matter how much you say it 2 classes being more sought after. 1 more so than the other doesnt make the balance horrible. because at the end out of the 10 raid spots they take 3 spots and u dont even need them to complete the content. > > > > > > > > > > No, 4 out of 10 slots since your second subgroup also needs a healer and that will almost always be druid to make perma-might easier. (3 out of 10 is already awful.) You also seem to forget basic human nature and especially what the general MMORPG-audience has degenerated into. People mostly play games for the feeling of progress/being rewarded nowadays and not for the general gaming-experience anymore. Just look at stuff like the "monday clear"-mentality or people who are whining when they need more than an hour for daily fractals and cms. For a lot of people, MMORPGs sadly have become some sort of second job. Couple that with the general design of GW2 which doesn't force people to carry their own weight in most parts of the game and you'll see why the raiding-community is as secluded as it is. Decent players will probably always be suspicious about LFGs without some sort LI/KP-requirement. Finding a decent raiding-guild is also comparatively hard since almost every guild requires you to play multiple classes and that you already have a certain number of LI/KP. That's why this game is in dire need of a decent guild-browser (also considering the upcoming WvW-restructuring), because forums are always only used by a minority. > > > > > > > > > > ...and yeah, probably the majority of people will agree with me that the game is utterly unbalanced in regards of the Chrono/Druid-Supremacy. I mean, it isn't just the overtuned offensive support which approx. doubles everyones dps, it's also the overtuned defensive support and utilities. > > > > > > > > I agree that a guild browser would be bae but thats quite diff from "make an easy mode and give lgenedary armor from there too" > > > > > > Again: It's not about easy-mode-raids, it's about the realistic chance to get into raiding-content in the first place. > > > > Its pretty high just join a training guild and get the first few li from there. Upload some log on the raiding thingy so you get a name out for your performance and then join a group. > > It's not high. This game is missing publicity. You rarely find training-guilds via forum since the forum is only used by a mostly hardcore-minority. Even then, most training-guilds are looking for your typical "shortage"-classes like Chrono and Druid (yes, the game is unbalanced) or started to have LI/KP-requirements too. It's not different ingame either: The LFG-tool is far from being helpful and even if people are looking for members that way, the LFGs suffer from the same issues like the LFGs in the forum. To make the situation worse: The job-mentality the modern MMORPG-community has also leads to even training-groups wanting to clear every possible wing thus raiding during the week is mandatory which is often fairly impossible if you aren't a NEET. Not just that, groupfinding also suffers from the inavailability of a "world-chat" and the megaserver-architecture GW2 offers. To increase publicity and to increase accessibility, - again - this game is in dire need of a decent guild-browser. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > Well.. I missed the WoW Train Wreck .. would have been great see the discussions that happened right before the fall. In either case, I am enjoying watching this train wreck, and seeing the way the game is killing itself. > > > > What trainwreck exactly? Legion has prob been the best expac in terms of raiding and one of the best expacs overall in a long long time. > > > > And no its not thanks to lfr. > > Legion is one of the worst expansions WoW has to offer, especially in terms of raiding. Legendaries with RNG-stats led to people having to raid with multiple characters of the same class to increase their chance to get decent gear. People had to play the game as a job rather than for fun which is obviously not healthy for the game. It's not just that, it's also the skill-pruning that led to your damage being mostly dependant on gear rather than skill. It's no wonder Activision Blizzard had to give in to finally open up Vanilla-servers after Legion ultimately flopped. > > > @"Rajani Isa.6294" said: > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > @"Alehin.3746" said: > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > > > > > > Irrelevant what else is out there.. if I wanted the Armor that is what I would need to do.. so either I do without.. which is a great way to bleed off players, or I am forced to do content I may hate.. another great way to bleed players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So.. well.. Anet loses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I guess no one cares about that as long as you get your loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not that no one cares, it's that it's not possible for Anet to sit there and try and claw back players on the fringe of leaving the game anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was why they made raids to start with.. Just saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If getting Leg gear is the ONLY thing you have to play for and you don't like the ways you play to get it ... you SHOULD leave the game. If Leg Gear is the only thing you are playing for, then the game doesn't have much to offer you in the first place anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aww pumpkin.. it's not about getting the gear.. it's about being able to get the gear. Keeping it within my reach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and... well.. it seems many have taken your advice about jumping ship. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end.. Anet still will lose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and I'll say it again.. You don't care, as long as your get your shinies, if you cared, you would feel that keeping your precious loot special was not worth hurting the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IT IS withing your reach tho. You just don't wanna do what is necessary and that's not the game's fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > That is like saying "Being a Billionaire is within your reach, you just don't want to do what is necessary" > > > > > > > > > > Compairing getting decent at a video game to making billions.... sigh > > > > > > > > His comparison is disingenuous to begin with. These guys continue to paint the picture that they are excluded from leg gear. The fact is that they choose to not participate in the activities that allow them to get it. > > > > > > I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that due to certain game-design-choices, certain content - namely raids - suffer heavily from accessibility-problems. > > One could argue some POIs and vistas suffer from accessibility issues :) > > > > Please what? Something that the top guilds did in wow to get the best result does not speak for tue majority of the raiders. Also idk about training guilds and job mentality. Some ppl want efficiency and thats fine, when i was doing raid training i joined when i could and didnt when i couldnt. We grouped opened the wing we wanted and practiced. No anything to complicating or anything to hard. Iv been in the crossroads discord for a while and i havent seen any li or kp requirements to join the a raid. The higher tier groups will have requirements such as know a second class and do well in it but thats hardly anything unheard of and in any mmo the higher u go the more competent with diff classes/specs you are advised to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > stuff > > It was just easier to use all the numbers as I had them on file already, try not to read too much into it. > > > > But if it bothered you that much, here is a smaller one..that just address what we are talking about, I even added dates to this one to make it a bit more clear. > > > > See the rebound curve before HoT > > My take on that is that the HoT announcement rekindled enough interest in the game to keep people around. Ok, but keep in mind that is purely speculation on your part. > > > .. and then the Dead Drop after. > > It's pretty clear that something went really wrong after HoT that hurt them fiscally. > > > >  > > > > Here is the thing. And these are the facts I have. > > > > Sales **Dropped Hard** directly after HoT. This is very clear from the numbers and charts. So, whatever went wrong, it had something to do with HoT directly. > > > > Also, funds are in a slow direct decent with zero spikes. > > I don't read too much into that. Well, you should. If you are going to talk numbers, you don't get to read in whatever you want and just dismiss whatever does not agree with your hypothesis. This reminds me of a Joke. > A Science Professor gets a report Chart Back. > Professor: _See, the dip here, is just as we expected, it means our theory of weight to mass conversion is correct!_ > Student: _Umm Professor, the chart is upside down._ > The Professor turns the chart around. > Professor: _Ahh yes, see this spike here, is just as we expected, it means our theory of weight to mass conversion is correct!_ So.. Lets just stick to the numbers we have, and not try to play them around to mean what we want. In the end, something happened with HoT as there were also no follow up rebound sales. Like the "rebound" sales leading up to HoT. Meaning, HoT did not even hold interest in spending for a single quarter. > Yes, I am curious to see where revenue goes next. Will higher-priced bundles and individual mount skins help in keeping revenue higher than pre-PoF once PoF box sales are less of a factor? I predict a direct, harsh dead drop like HoT just further down. Maybe down to the 10 million mark. And PoF and HoT are or were about the same price and offered the same kind of packages. Just I think people bought the larger HoT packs because they had more faith and trust in the company to do right by them, and Anet dropped that ball hard, so when PoF came around, they were a lot more jaded about parting with their cash as they had no idea if they would like this expansion or not. And while that is speculation on my part, that is also based on what some of the people who were returning to the game told me, they had Pre-Ordered the $100 HoT pack with complete faith.. and upon coming back.. bought the $10 dollar PoF pack.. just in case it was as bad as HoT. Trust like that is a fickle thing, it's very hard to get it back. While I know PoF brought a lot of players back (at least momentarily), I still expect to see more higher priced items, like the Mount skins, or More RNG items to discourage Gold to Gem purchases, which is exactly why they put in the higher prices to start with, but, I doubt that will prevent the downward trend, as from what I have seen, they have done very little retain their original core player base or give players a solid reason to stay around, play and spend money. Now, Do I think raiders functioned as stop-gap to the spending losses? No, as anyone who has the free time and skill to turn a game into a job or work, also has the means to farm gold to buy whatever the want from the gem store, hence the whole inflated Mount Skin price issue to start with, MO directly said it was to get people to spend real money. In the end.. I think they put themselves in a bad position with HoT even trying to cater to the "I want challenge" crowed. They should have kept to their niche group of casuals,and continued to try and break away from the mold of other MMO's, and allowed PvP/WvW to be their "End Game Challenge" content, put some "Prestige" rewards there as opposed to letting that game mode wilter and die for years like they did. They said originally they wanted to avoid the pitfalls and traps other MMO's fall into with GW2.. and then jumped right into the most toxic of them with HoT. What did they really think was going to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > My take on that is that the HoT announcement rekindled enough interest in the game to keep people around. > > Ok, but keep in mind that is purely speculation on your part. As it is speculation on yours that L. Item access is a significant reason for post HoT revenue drops. > > > > I don't read too much into that. > > Well, you should. If you are going to talk numbers, you don't get to read in whatever you want and just dismiss whatever does not agree with your hypothesis. > So.. Lets just stick to the numbers we have, and not try to play them around to mean what we want. In the end, something happened with HoT as there were also no follow up rebound sales. Like the "rebound" sales leading up to HoT. > > Meaning, HoT did not even hold interest in spending for a single quarter. Pot, meet kettle. Also, "follow-up rebound sale"? What is that? You dismiss speculation that the pre-HoT upturn is due to renewed interest generated by the XPac announcement. Perhaps you'd care to explain what exactly the pre-HoT upturn is a rebound _from_. > > Yes, I am curious to see where revenue goes next. Will higher-priced bundles and individual mount skins help in keeping revenue higher than pre-PoF once PoF box sales are less of a factor? > > I predict a direct, harsh dead drop like HoT just further down. Maybe down to the 10 million mark. > > And PoF and HoT are or were about the same price and offered the same kind of packages. Just I think people bought the larger HoT packs because they had more faith and trust in the company to do right by them, and Anet dropped that ball hard, so when PoF came around, they were a lot more jaded about parting with their cash as they had no idea if they would like this expansion or not. And while that is speculation on my part, that is also based on what some of the people who were returning to the game told me, they had Pre-Ordered the $100 HoT pack with complete faith.. and upon coming back.. bought the $10 dollar PoF pack.. just in case it was as bad as HoT. You could at least get the numbers right. The three PoF packs were $20US lower than the three HoT packs. That's hardly "about the same price." Also, where can I find the $10 PoF pack? Is that a mistype for $30? > While I know PoF brought a lot of players back (at least momentarily), I still expect to see more higher priced items, like the Mount skins, or More RNG items _to discourage Gold to Gem purchases, which is exactly why they put in the higher prices to start with_, but, I doubt that will prevent the downward trend, as from what I have seen, they have done very little retain their original core player base or give players a solid reason to stay around, play and spend money. > > Now, Do I think raiders functioned as stop-gap to the spending losses? No, as _anyone who has the free time and skill to turn a game into a job or work, also has the means to farm gold to buy whatever the want from the gem store_, Did you realize that, other than seeding the exchange with both gems and gold at launch to get the ball rolling, the gems in the exchange come from players who bought them with real money? Higher-priced items in the store mean the gold exchangers need to spend more gold to get the gems to buy the items they want. More gems coming out means the amount of gold earned by each gem exchanged goes up. That serves as incentive to gem exchangers. > ... hence the whole inflated Mount Skin price issue to start with, MO directly said it was to get people to spend real money. What he said was. "Mount skins are style items, and style items have some unique challenges. They’re subject to individual taste, so except for the very flashiest items, individual style items will have limited sales. Also, GW2 isn’t setup to support an enjoyable experience of browsing through a large catalog of style items, so players tend not to do that. What our data shows is that higher-priced flashy individual items can work, and lower-average-price-per-item bundles can work, but lower-priced individual items generally don’t generate meaningful revenue to support the game. And the whole point of these items is to support the game." The reason offered is the limited appeal of cosmetic items (people have different tastes). There is no mention of "real money." Unless you can offer a different quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said: > > > > > > My take on that is that the HoT announcement rekindled enough interest in the game to keep people around. > > > > Ok, but keep in mind that is purely speculation on your part. > > As it is speculation on yours that L. Item access is a significant reason for post HoT revenue drops. > Yes it is, but it is speculation based off what I have been reading on these forums, so it is not purely of my own devising. > > > > > > I don't read too much into that. > > > > Well, you should. If you are going to talk numbers, you don't get to read in whatever you want and just dismiss whatever does not agree with your hypothesis. > > So.. Lets just stick to the numbers we have, and not try to play them around to mean what we want. In the end, something happened with HoT as there were also no follow up rebound sales. Like the "rebound" sales leading up to HoT. > > > > Meaning, HoT did not even hold interest in spending for a single quarter. > > Pot, meet kettle. Also, "follow-up rebound sale"? What is that? Well, much like Pre-Expansion rise in sales that you credit to _Pre-Expansion Hype_, the Follow-Up sales are the Post-Expansion boost in sales that should result in increased player activity due to the expansion, with their longevity being contingent upon the staying power of the expansion. We see clearly that HoT did not even last a Quarter in. Now, keep in mind that HoT was launched at the start of the Quarter, so. with that put out,we know that Q4-2015 was the PER-Order Sales, and Q1-2016, was the _Launch Sales_ and _Post-Expansion Hype Sales_. What that means is that by January (2 months in) past HoT's launch, people were _done with the Hype_. Now, you might try to dismiss that abrupt drop, but keep in mind, you have credited 3 quarters of sales, to Pre-HoT hype. You have directly credited 9 months of increased sales to HoT hype. So that drop after less then 2 months.. _looks REALLY bad_ by comparison. > You dismiss speculation that the pre-HoT upturn is due to renewed interest generated by the XPac announcement. Perhaps you'd care to explain what exactly the pre-HoT upturn is a rebound _from_. > Well I explained above, but to be honest, I think you are dismissing the effect of the LW episodes on sales. I mean one of their larger Spikes, Q4-2013 (which you have been trying to dismiss as _Holiday Sales_ or some such nonsense), coincides with the Launch of Cut Throat Politics, The Queens Jubilee, and Clockwork Chaos, which.. come on.. the Invasion of Scarlet Brier on Lions Arch.. from what I understand, that was pretty epic. And would explain the vast increase in sales during that quarter. So the rise in sales prior to HoT could have just come from just well received LW episodes that got people more involved with the game. Having played them.. they were pretty good.. a bit drawn out.. and got a lot worse towards the end.. which.. again would reflect the dip in sales right before the Launch of HoT. So I am going to go with LW episodes eliciting interest in the game. Which also explains why LW has little to no impact following HoT, as from what I understand, a substantial amount of the casual _story mode_ players took a "break from the game" > > > Yes, I am curious to see where revenue goes next. Will higher-priced bundles and individual mount skins help in keeping revenue higher than pre-PoF once PoF box sales are less of a factor? > > > > I predict a direct, harsh dead drop like HoT just further down. Maybe down to the 10 million mark. > > > > And PoF and HoT are or were about the same price and offered the same kind of packages. Just I think people bought the larger HoT packs because they had more faith and trust in the company to do right by them, and Anet dropped that ball hard, so when PoF came around, they were a lot more jaded about parting with their cash as they had no idea if they would like this expansion or not. And while that is speculation on my part, that is also based on what some of the people who were returning to the game told me, they had Pre-Ordered the $100 HoT pack with complete faith.. and upon coming back.. bought the $10 dollar PoF pack.. just in case it was as bad as HoT. > > You could at least get the numbers right. The three PoF packs were $20US lower than the three HoT packs. That's hardly "about the same price." Also, where can I find the $10 PoF pack? Is that a mistype for $30? No idea.. I could have sworn I only paid $10 PoF (might have paid $20, I know I just bought the smallest POST-Launch, pack they had) and I saw $100 packs for PoF, just like HoT, so.. like anything maybe the numbers changed. > > > While I know PoF brought a lot of players back (at least momentarily), I still expect to see more higher priced items, like the Mount skins, or More RNG items _to discourage Gold to Gem purchases, which is exactly why they put in the higher prices to start with_, but, I doubt that will prevent the downward trend, as from what I have seen, they have done very little retain their original core player base or give players a solid reason to stay around, play and spend money. > > > > Now, Do I think raiders functioned as stop-gap to the spending losses? No, as _anyone who has the free time and skill to turn a game into a job or work, also has the means to farm gold to buy whatever the want from the gem store_, > > Did you realize that, other than seeding the exchange with both gems and gold at launch to get the ball rolling, the gems in the exchange come from players who bought them with real money? But that does not generate current market sales, and MO was very transparent about this. See, the Gems someone is buying today with gold, for anyone knows could have been put into the market during the spike in Q4-2013, as such that does not generate them current income, as they have already spent that money years ago. > Higher-priced items in the store mean the gold exchangers need to spend more gold to get the gems to buy the items they want. More gems coming out means the amount of gold earned by each gem exchanged goes up. That serves as incentive to gem exchangers. > Not really, See, just having a better price is not an incentive to exchange Gems into Gold, unless you first Got the Gems with Gold, and are trying to make a profit on the exchange, otherwise, players need to have a reason to exchange gems into gold.. like.. something worth spending real money on to them. Form my small sampling the only object on the market that I have seen people plunk down cash for, are G1 Legendary weapons. Which.. of course, feeds support for my speculation that restricting Legendary Access is hurting them fiscally. > > ... hence the whole inflated Mount Skin price issue to start with, MO directly said it was to get people to spend real money. > > What he said was. "Mount skins are style items, and style items have some unique challenges. They’re subject to individual taste, so except for the very flashiest items, individual style items will have limited sales. Also, GW2 isn’t setup to support an enjoyable experience of browsing through a large catalog of style items, so players tend not to do that. What our data shows is that higher-priced flashy individual items can work, and lower-average-price-per-item bundles can work, but lower-priced individual items generally **don’t generate meaningful revenue to support the game**. And the whole point of these items is to support the game." > > The reason offered is the limited appeal of cosmetic items (people have different tastes). There is no mention of "real money." Unless you can offer a different quote? He says directly _generating meaningful revenue to support the game_ .. it's clear as day that he talking about **Making REAL Money** and paying the real bills here to keep the lights on for the game. Not gold sales, not gem conversions, but people plunking down real world cold hard cash for the items in the store.. to keep the game going. So.. again.. No.. I don't think Raiders who have the time and means to convert gold into gems functioned as a stop gap, and right from what you quoted.. it's clear that neither does Anet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 Reading on the forums is in no way, an appropriate method to correlate a drop in revenue to Leg. Item Access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Reading on the forums is in no way, an appropriate method to correlate a drop in revenue to Leg. Item Access. Well, considering drawing a basic trendline is "meddling and playing with numbers".. anything else will be considered an appropiate better method. Why use simple yet "super manipulative" math when you can correlate arbitrary dissatisfactories to these numbers instead. Just shows the level argumentation imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Reading on the forums is in no way, an appropriate method to correlate a drop in revenue to Leg. Item Access. > > Well, considering drawing a basic trendline is "meddling and playing with numbers".. anything else will be considered an appropiate better method. Why use simple yet "super manipulative" math when you can correlate arbitrary dissatisfactories to these numbers instead. > > Just shows the level argumentation imo. Yeah, that's my point too. If 'reading the forums' is enough to make an informative argument, then the bar is set WAY to low to even come to the table to discuss what's good or not for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Reading on the forums is in no way, an appropriate method to correlate a drop in revenue to Leg. Item Access. FYI, not just these forums, but, regardless, Enlighten me, what method did you use to come to your conclusions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > Reading on the forums is in no way, an appropriate method to correlate a drop in revenue to Leg. Item Access. > > FYI, not just these forums, but, regardless, Enlighten me, what method did you use to come to your conclusions? What conclusions are you referring to exactly? To be fair here, we are talking about the statement you made ... you're speculating based on what you read on the forum. Why would any logical approach lead you to think that's a good source to speculate on? I'm not speculating based on reading the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 You can also gather from the forums that several people became upset about the imbalance that the especs brought to pvp and wvw. Are those game modes factored in or is your speculation purely in a pve perspective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Reading on the forums is in no way, an appropriate method to correlate a drop in revenue to Leg. Item Access. > > > > FYI, not just these forums, but, regardless, Enlighten me, what method did you use to come to your conclusions? > > What conclusions are you referring to exactly? Well let me hold your hand here, see, your conclusion is that Legendary Armor and Raids have not contributed to the fiscal decline (unless you plan to change that stance, and then you would be agreeing with me, which would be rather ironic at this point). So with that explained and done. Well thank you, It's good to know you came about that conclusion without any actual method, perhaps some _feels_ , maybe not even that. Thank you for your time. Your method of Speculation and Conclusion are Duly noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > You can also gather from the forums that several people became upset about the imbalance that the especs brought to pvp and wvw. Are those game modes factored in or is your speculation purely in a pve perspective? Yes, many were upset about the x-pac, some even went so far as to call it P2W, (Then again, Mount Skins were also called P2W, so.. I don't put any weight into those kinds of claims on these forums at least). But truth be told, WvW has been bleeding players since launch due to massive neglect of the game mode. Any of the die-hard WvW players that endured being that tossed aside, no doubt also suffered though the imbalances.. those poor kittens. But, I will predict, that when either CU or CF launch, WvW will take a very debilitating hit to their population. In no way do I think it will crippled the game, as I doubt that there is even a large enough WvW population left to do any real fiscal damage to the game even if they all left, but, it will make the game mode far more vacant then it currently is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > Reading on the forums is in no way, an appropriate method to correlate a drop in revenue to Leg. Item Access. > > > > > > FYI, not just these forums, but, regardless, Enlighten me, what method did you use to come to your conclusions? > > > > What conclusions are you referring to exactly? > > Well let me hold your hand here, see, your conclusion is that Legendary Armor and Raids have not contributed to the fiscal decline (unless you plan to change that stance, and then you would be agreeing with me, which would be rather ironic at this point). So with that explained and done. > > Well thank you, It's good to know you came about that conclusion without any actual method, perhaps some _feels_ , maybe not even that. > > Thank you for your time. Your method of Speculation and Conclusion are Duly noted. I suppose thats just a longwinded way of saying "but you too are using speculation without any actual method and feels!". Disregarding the truth of that, I would call it progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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