A lot of classes and builds are not wanted in parties/squads

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @"Draco.9480" said:

> the problem is the balance team are on drugs and don't bother to balance the special buffs and dps among all classes. if few could be banners(something that replaces the banners with totems, spirit weapons, turrets) so more variety would be (not to stack each other if same buffs). druid shouldn't be the only mighter. others should have the options to be effective as a might buffer efficiently too. other dpsers should also have 20% damage when target stunned so weavers wouldn't be the only best option in fracs. to have balance wise with the damage.i suggested it way before but they don't listen. now ya have just elitism and class discrimination.

 

What I don't understand is there a game I play on and off that has this "Holy Trinity" that is more or less balanced between the three. I'll try and explain it by taking 3 classes from this one game and just replace everything in GW2 terms.

There's the magic/healers which would be in this case the Elementalist and/or Necromancer.

There's long range dps class which in this case I would say Longbow Ranger and/or Deadeye.

There's the close ranged defensive tanker which let's just consider this to be Warrior and/or Guardian.

 

Now if I added the balance of the other game into GW2, I'll just pick one of the 2 of these 6.

The Elementalist does use a lot of powerful magical attacks and also does really well in healing and/or buffing and support.

BUT the class is far from bad in defense. The only issue would be it has less HP than the others would be, but with the way it can also support and heal themselves it balances out.

 

The Deadeye with it's rifle has a long range and for argument sake should would/should have damage at least close to the Elementalist. It can defend itself quite well and, but not as great as the upcomer. The reason being due to it's range allowing it to keep alive a bit longer. The next situation would be that it still has ways to heal itself to not be too dependant on the Elementalist... BUT the help from it will be appreciated still of course.

 

Then comes the Warrior. The "easy for beginners to get into" class. It should have damage closer to Deadeye than Elementalist, but still near the range of the two either way. The heals on this class would be the weakest of the three, but makes up for it quite well with it having some boons and traits to boosts it's defense in being a close ranged class.

 

Putting all 3 in a Raid should compliment each other and the only thing that should come out of it is that they work better with all 3 of them on field together... BUT if you had 2 Elementalist and a Warrior or 3 Deadeyes or 2 Warriors and a Deadeye, it shouldn't be a drastic difference in the outcome/dps for it to really stand out.

 

In PvP putting all 3 head to head should be a neck and neck fight.

You have the Elementalist having magic and supports to keep it alive but heavy hits to keep the other 2 in line.

You have the Deadeye who has Range, some heals, and a bit of defense and maneuvers to keep him in line to try and take on the other 2.

You have the Warrior that might not have great mobility or heals, but has the skills to just roll through some of the stuff that the other 2 has to throw at it and still be a decent challenge.

All it would come down to is the players and how they play the class and how they set their class up.

It would be "oh well this class don't have good dps/support/heal/defense/blahblahblah" it would be all up to the player... that and of course their equipment. Can't have someone in level 1 gear and expect them to do as well as someone with Exotics or Ascended. They should not do completely horrible but not as good as someone with better equipment.

 

WvW would get the same feeling as PvP because now anyone and everyone would be able to hold their own weight. Everyone's class will work.

 

I'm not a balancing dev, but it really shouldn't be hard to take classes that you can sell are not doing great in one instance and boost that and those that shows it's doing a little TOO well than the others to nerf it down a bit.

 

My 2 mains are my 2 1st made characters. One is a Necro and one is a Thief.

There's things on Thief that I know should be buffed BUT I know there's things that could get a nerf on Thief. Same on Necro needs buffing in certain areas, but certain things kind of showing "Hey... I need a little tweaking as I'm a bit strong here."

Same can be said for Engineers and Mesmers and Revenants and whatever else.

 

I should not feel a hit in performance when let's say I go from a Guardian which has some skills to heal/defend/support myself BUT have some good attack/damage from whether Core or Fire or Dragonhunter... then going to a Mesmer and seeing that I do have some things to support and defend... and my damage is good as a Mirage and debatable as a core... but now as a Chrono my damage is... well...

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> > @"arenta.2953" said:

> > considering my main characters are a Knight Soulbeast (power, prec, toughness)

> >

> > a Soldier/Knight Reaper (Power, Prec, Tough, Vit)

> >

> > and a Marauder Deadeye(power,prec,ferocity,vit)

> >

> > it really does suck that so few builds are viable.....

> >

> >

> > GW2 used to be fun, bring what build u want. and if we die, keep trying cause its fun to play (anyone remember Ascalon Catacombs Underwear runs? where we keep running to the boss until we grind him down. usually ending up with all our armor broken)

> >

> >

> > but now...if you don't meet the requriement of this level dps or this specific class/armor set up. you'll be lucky to participate.....

> >

> > durable builds.....suffer =(

>

> I love your builds! :D I think people who say defensive stats are bad never actually tried them and they are the ones who get downed in one hit during meta events while I'm still above 80% HP as a Celestial Engineer, lol.

 

Love my celestial ele, too!

 

Having said that, running arcdps has been a real eye-opener for me. I never considered it impossible for a large group to be carried by a few players. However, I didn't realize that this is usually the case in open world. I've seen some pretty extreme examples (e.g. 47% of damage carried by a single player against a legendary hydra bounty in a 40 man squad!).

 

I almost feel guilty using a tanky build now! And if someone isn't there to bring the damage, I now find myself thinking how much easier this would be if I were dealing more myself.

[Despond.2174]

There is nothing wrong with end-game dificulty having people refined and establish the most efficient way of clearing something. It's always going to be this way, it's impossible to have an extensive class/build system and have everything identical. Also this is for T4, I mean anything under no-one cares what you are, and there are many guilds who take anyone for T4s. So I see no problem other than maybe I agree there could be more diversity for support/tank.

 

At the end of the day, you can create a party with no requirements, but you can't expect it to be as efficient. If people want the best possible chance at doing something faster, that's fine and if you want to play whatever you want regardless of it's viability you're welcome to do that too - just don't expect the same results because it's not possible to balance it this way.

 

The best you can hope for is smaller frequent balances to try bridge the gaps so the discrepancy isn't so large, in that regards people have a point but it seems larger changes less frequently area more common, and this is too large of a swing.

 

This is what I am doing. I have a couple of geared builds I like to play, they are viable but not cutting edge meta. I can do 3/4 content pug with these builds and with my guild I could do anything - but for the top TIER pugging content I also have 2 meta builds to bring along. So it's possible to have both worlds. The fantasy that an MMO has perfect balance will never happen, but the contrast from worst to best I agree shouldn't be a very large one but you will always have people @ end game wanting the most efficient way possible and that's perfectly fine.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > @"arenta.2953" said:

> > > considering my main characters are a Knight Soulbeast (power, prec, toughness)

> > >

> > > a Soldier/Knight Reaper (Power, Prec, Tough, Vit)

> > >

> > > and a Marauder Deadeye(power,prec,ferocity,vit)

> > >

> > > it really does suck that so few builds are viable.....

> > >

> > >

> > > GW2 used to be fun, bring what build u want. and if we die, keep trying cause its fun to play (anyone remember Ascalon Catacombs Underwear runs? where we keep running to the boss until we grind him down. usually ending up with all our armor broken)

> > >

> > >

> > > but now...if you don't meet the requriement of this level dps or this specific class/armor set up. you'll be lucky to participate.....

> > >

> > > durable builds.....suffer =(

> >

> > I love your builds! :D I think people who say defensive stats are bad never actually tried them and they are the ones who get downed in one hit during meta events while I'm still above 80% HP as a Celestial Engineer, lol.

>

> Love my celestial ele, too!

>

> Having said that, running arcdps has been a real eye-opener for me. I never considered it impossible for a large group to be carried by a few players. However, I didn't realize that this is usually the case in open world. I've seen some pretty extreme examples (e.g. 47% of damage carried by a single player against a legendary hydra bounty in a 40 man squad!).

>

> I almost feel guilty using a tanky build now! And if someone isn't there to bring the damage, I now find myself thinking how much easier this would be if I were dealing more myself.

The tanky builds enable them to do that much damage anyway. Mobs generally focus on toughness, remember? That single player would probably have died if the hydra accidentally sneezed on him.

 

I fail to see why anyone should feel "guilty" running a tank. "Tanks" in GW2 with 2000+ toughness can still have 2000+ power, 30%+ crit chance and 200%+ crit dmg. And thats just power, if you put all that into condi instead you can have like 1800+ condi dmg.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > > @"arenta.2953" said:

> > > > considering my main characters are a Knight Soulbeast (power, prec, toughness)

> > > >

> > > > a Soldier/Knight Reaper (Power, Prec, Tough, Vit)

> > > >

> > > > and a Marauder Deadeye(power,prec,ferocity,vit)

> > > >

> > > > it really does suck that so few builds are viable.....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > GW2 used to be fun, bring what build u want. and if we die, keep trying cause its fun to play (anyone remember Ascalon Catacombs Underwear runs? where we keep running to the boss until we grind him down. usually ending up with all our armor broken)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > but now...if you don't meet the requriement of this level dps or this specific class/armor set up. you'll be lucky to participate.....

> > > >

> > > > durable builds.....suffer =(

> > >

> > > I love your builds! :D I think people who say defensive stats are bad never actually tried them and they are the ones who get downed in one hit during meta events while I'm still above 80% HP as a Celestial Engineer, lol.

> >

> > Love my celestial ele, too!

> >

> > Having said that, running arcdps has been a real eye-opener for me. I never considered it impossible for a large group to be carried by a few players. However, I didn't realize that this is usually the case in open world. I've seen some pretty extreme examples (e.g. 47% of damage carried by a single player against a legendary hydra bounty in a 40 man squad!).

> >

> > I almost feel guilty using a tanky build now! And if someone isn't there to bring the damage, I now find myself thinking how much easier this would be if I were dealing more myself.

> The tanky builds enable them to do that much damage anyway. Mobs generally focus on toughness, remember? That single player would probably have died if the hydra accidentally sneezed on him.

>

> I fail to see why anyone should feel "guilty" running a tank. "Tanks" in GW2 with 2000+ toughness can still have 2000+ power, 30%+ crit chance and 200%+ crit dmg. And thats just power, if you put all that into condi instead you can have like 1800+ condi dmg.

 

LOL

1) Not all mobs go vs highest toughness.

 

2) A person with all celestial won't have 2000 power and 2000 toughness. 30% crit, outside a couple of classes/builds (Dragonhunter and Engineer) is useless. And you'll still underperform.

Don't get me wrong, i used to run soldiers on my guardian for Fractals T4. I had the same logic. Might not do as much damage, but at least i'm allowing others to do damage, and i'm still not that bad.

Except, what i said before, aoes and starting to use ArcDPS, i started to realize that even on my best effort i'd be half of the dps that other builds would put out.

Now i'm using a power DH with a very min-maxed mix of Valk+Assassins+Berzerker, and, except for big condi friendly bosses, i'm usually top dps, and no one dies because stuff melts on a good party. Nothing feels better than T4 bloomhunger phasing before the stun is over.

 

3)What works in open world doesn't really work for instanced content. Except for the new bounties and a few others, most open world bosses are easily overwhelmed by numbers. But more important, a lot of them don't go for max toughness characters, but do random targets instead, not to mention, most of them also have aoe attacks.

But it's open world, and who cares. I have lvl 80 characters with lvl 30 rare trinkets because they didn't drop anything better. That's more than fine for Open World (all my lvl 80's have full HoT and PoF elites unlocked too btw). Even the ones who i had some gear but don't play outside open world have mismatched gear. For example my Necromancer, when i first built him for reaper i built it for power damage (because that's what it seemed it would be good with, until i realized condi was still better), so before friday when i finally gave it a full set of asc vipers armor and a vipers scepter it still had a variegated set of mismatched stats from Berzerkers to Sinisters, with most of it being carrion. My trinkets and back are STILL all over the place (good enough for wvw roams, can still 1v1 most people, even 2v1 sometimes -me being the 1).

 

I'm not trying to tell you how to play the game. If you're viable and competent with your build, i won't judge. Heck i've carried people through T4 fractals that were under-dpsing the support classes, without complaining. As long as the run goes smooth, i don't care. I've taken Friends with like 50 AR to T4 fractals, knowing they'd be dead and useless most of the time (i did pick days where all of the fractas were from the original set that only have Agony on specific attacks from the boss so he could help more).

But if you want to do that, if you chose to not have the best build possible for the situation. If you choose to be a potential liability for a group. You can't complain when the group chooses not to have you with them.

It's all a matter of choice. Some people choose to maximize what they do with your time. You chose to take a more leisurely approach and a more quirky and "fun" build ("fun" because that's subjective as hell), but that's your **personal** approach. If others don't want or can't afford to take your leisurely approach, or are unwilling to carry your less than optimal build, you can't really take offence, you made the conscious choice of taking that approach.

 

That doesn't mean that any class isn't viable in any area of the game. It just means, some are Optimal, and by definition, not all of them can be.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Vault Girl.6792" said:

> Here is a screenshot from lfg for T4 fractals, that's something I see everyday. Almost everyone wants a party that consists of 3 BS, one mesmer and one druid. Well, some parties are just looking for dps, but even they aren't really happy when a thief or a necro joins them. Often parties wait for more than 30 minutes just because they don't want to start without a mesmer/druid, though it can be done even without these classes.

> In WvW rangers, engineers and thieves sometimes get kicked from squads when there is not enough space for guards and scourges.

> 2 years ago it was a problem only for raids (something I don't even want to mention here), and now almost everything is affected.

>

> 

>

> What's the point in adding new specializations, when most of them are not needed anyway?

> It doesn't look like balance changes can fix this, it's only getting worse. Do you see any solutions to this problem?

>

> (I apologize for any mistakes, English isn't my first language.)

 

That picture only tells me that those parties are incomplete and advertising. There could very well be dozens and dozens of teams that are not like the ideal set-up but they are actually inside the instance, participating in the content.

 

The question should be, is the time invested to get the ideal set-up equivalent to the safety/speed achieved from said set-up?

[notebene.3190]

Not the fault of specializations. Fault of people.

 

I remember when I was like in 6th grade, everyone was wearing OP stuff. If you weren't wearing OP, you were lame. They were shirts. And shorts. Lots of other shirts and shorts. Perfectly fine. Nice patterns. Covered your body. But the cool kids were "LF more OP".

 


 

[Mea.5491]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> 2) A person with all celestial won't have 2000 power and 2000 toughness. 30% crit, outside a couple of classes/builds (Dragonhunter and Engineer) is useless. And you'll still underperform.

 

Actually, Cele Ele can have 2k Power in Fire attunement, 2k Toughness in Earth and 45% crit all the time (unbuffed) with a Signet build and Sigil of Accuracy. :D Source: my Cele Ele. Just saying for fun, not trying to argue or anything. x) And sure, it's still not "optimal" (for damage) but it's hella fun!

For some reason I really hate dying in games... I can't explain why but I find it embarassing when my character begs for help on the ground! Cele builds make me invincible, that's why I love them so much. Also, I 'm quite clumsy, I honestly can't handle glass cannon builds, lol.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

I made a LFG myself for T4s, It filled and we did all t4 dailies with no problem, is it so hard to make your own lfg?

[STIHL.2489]

I am sure others have said this But, their group, their rules.

 

During Tixx, I would put up LFM's that said "Snazzy Dressers only" and I'd kick anyone that didn't look like they put effort into their look. Not being rude, I set what I wanted, either meet it or move on.

 

If someone wants to make a group and say "Female Carrs Guardians Only" unless you are playing a female charr guard, pass on that. It does not matter how long they wait, that is on them. .just move on and join some other group or make your own.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > 2) A person with all celestial won't have 2000 power and 2000 toughness. 30% crit, outside a couple of classes/builds (Dragonhunter and Engineer) is useless. And you'll still underperform.

>

> Actually, Cele Ele can have 2k Power in Fire attunement, 2k Toughness in Earth and 45% crit all the time (unbuffed) with a Signet build and Sigil of Accuracy. :D Source: my Cele Ele. Just saying for fun, not trying to argue or anything. x) And sure, it's still not "optimal" (for damage) but it's hella fun!

> For some reason I really hate dying in games... I can't explain why but I find it embarassing when my character begs for help on the ground! Cele builds make me invincible, that's why I love them so much. Also, I 'm quite clumsy, I honestly can't handle glass cannon builds, lol.

 

Not both at once. So, it's useless. And it's a single very niche case where you had to sacrifice better traits for that.

If you can't play a glass cannon, why the hell are you playing Ele? I rarely die with necro or Ranger (Except falls). You don't see people playing Zerker ele or whatever dying all the time either. You just need to play better.

Cele stats is a crutch that you're using to keep your play-style stale and under-performing. You're holding yourself back from actually enjoying the game, the accomplishment of mastering a class because you're using the most useless stat combo outside of pvp. Celestial isn't even a tanky stat... It's just the middle of the road stat that isn't one thing or the other... And like a wise man once said:

 

 

[Nykravis.8342]

I've mained a ranger since almost launch. I was hacked when they turned us into clerics, and refuse to play druid. but if you don't then you'll get instntly kicked from any group. At the same time before HoT, you couldn't get in a group as a ranger to save your life. Either way it's complete fail. If you won't play the way someone else wants you to play (aka "meta") then you can't get into upper level content.

 

 

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > 2) A person with all celestial won't have 2000 power and 2000 toughness. 30% crit, outside a couple of classes/builds (Dragonhunter and Engineer) is useless. And you'll still underperform.

>

> Actually, Cele Ele can have 2k Power in Fire attunement, 2k Toughness in Earth and 45% crit all the time (unbuffed) with a Signet build and Sigil of Accuracy. :D Source: my Cele Ele. Just saying for fun, not trying to argue or anything. x) And sure, it's still not "optimal" (for damage) but it's hella fun!

> For some reason I really hate dying in games... I can't explain why but I find it embarassing when my character begs for help on the ground! Cele builds make me invincible, that's why I love them so much. Also, I 'm quite clumsy, I honestly can't handle glass cannon builds, lol.

 

I hate dying in games too! Thats why I run full glass cannon and git gud. So that way i can be top dps AND not dead.

[Faaris.8013]

And then there's me, who just joins these groups if they ask for dps. I would have joined 3 of the 6 groups depicted in the OPs post. I'm mainly playing power Daredevil, and yes, sometimes people leave when I join their party. There are many people who have prejudices against thieves, and I actually get where they are coming from.

 

A few days ago a thief joined a party I started (I'll tell you why starting your won party doesn't work) and my immediate thought was why he did that in the first place? I would never join a party that already has a thief in it, it just makes no sense to have two thieves in a fractal T4 party. If you play druid healer you see there's already a druid in the group, you simply dont join. That guy did anyway, and hell he had an ego. He seemed to feel the urge to prove himself, assured us that this never happened before when he made a mistake, was rushing the content, not caring at all about the rest of the group. I was the one who coordinated who does the heat room in Thaumanova and the consoles in Aetherblade. He would have just ignored that there is another thief in the group and done his thing. He left us alone dealing with mobs to rush to the next part, which annoyed the rest of the group and kept people from switching traits and controlling cooldowns. And of course he didn't forget to tell us that he's only X steps away from getting legendary armor. That guy was a nuisance and that is probably the reason why he has to pug T4s. His dps was similar to mine btw, and I was playing a thief with exotic armor. If that is your experience with thieves, I fully agree that it sucks. But trust me, it's the player, not the class. Those people give thieves a bad image.

 

Yesterday and today I got into groups with druid + chrono and it was a breeze. We had a weaver and dps berserker, the latter out-damaged me, the weaver didn't. If you just look at the class, you are so wrong. Most weavers you get in T4 pugs are mediocre, I rarely meet any weaver in T4s that outdamages my Power DD (in full berserker ascended gear), and I give cc in addition and do mechanics that other classes cannot do.

 

There is a good reason why people want a healer and a chrono in a group, but the dps classes are exchangeable. Even the healer druid can be easily replaced by a firebrand healer in fractals. There is a pattern with people. First they don't know anything, then they read into their class and in class combinations. Then they follow those recommendations religiously. Some stop development at that point and never get out of the meta. I've seen "meta-thieves" who lectured me about which traits to set as thief in fractals, and then I saw them doing 60% of my dps. Then some people start to think of their own, and realize that the meta set up by qtfy or metabattle is made for 10-player groups with two druids and a chrono (or two) + CPS, but that you only have 5 people in a group in fractals and sometimes no chrono or druid at all. And that fractal potions change the whole game for some classes. I don't rely on Spotter or Banner of Discipline to max my crit chance at all, I can do it all by myself. With a druid and banner warrior in the group, I can even change some stats to get more health and still have 100% crit chance. Not meta at all.

 

Creating your own LFG does not solve the issue. Try to create an LFG as a thief a few times and see what happens. People don't join your LFG, simple as that. You are better off joining an LFG than creating your own. I also play a thief with very little AP (in addition to my main thief), and we had three people join and leave the LFG. I'm pretty sure that was about me, people looking at the class and the AP and assume that you must suck.

 

With the squishiness and the little support thief gives, the class deserves more dps capability. I once maxed out at 34k dps at Ensolyss with my Power DD, when my buddy peaked at 54k with Power Holosmith. You have to be very aware and quick as thief to not get one-shot, and in return, you should deal more damage than a much more tankier class like berserkerr or holosmith. I only play thief because I love the assassin class in games, not because it's the best class.

[Draco.9480]

> @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > the problem is the balance team are on drugs and don't bother to balance the special buffs and dps among all classes. if few could be banners(something that replaces the banners with totems, spirit weapons, turrets) so more variety would be (not to stack each other if same buffs). druid shouldn't be the only mighter. others should have the options to be effective as a might buffer efficiently too. other dpsers should also have 20% damage when target stunned so weavers wouldn't be the only best option in fracs. to have balance wise with the damage.i suggested it way before but they don't listen. now ya have just elitism and class discrimination.

>

> What I don't understand is there a game I play on and off that has this "Holy Trinity" that is more or less balanced between the three. I'll try and explain it by taking 3 classes from this one game and just replace everything in GW2 terms.

> There's the magic/healers which would be in this case the Elementalist and/or Necromancer.

> There's long range dps class which in this case I would say Longbow Ranger and/or Deadeye.

> There's the close ranged defensive tanker which let's just consider this to be Warrior and/or Guardian.

>

> Now if I added the balance of the other game into GW2, I'll just pick one of the 2 of these 6.

> The Elementalist does use a lot of powerful magical attacks and also does really well in healing and/or buffing and support.

> BUT the class is far from bad in defense. The only issue would be it has less HP than the others would be, but with the way it can also support and heal themselves it balances out.

>

> The Deadeye with it's rifle has a long range and for argument sake should would/should have damage at least close to the Elementalist. It can defend itself quite well and, but not as great as the upcomer. The reason being due to it's range allowing it to keep alive a bit longer. The next situation would be that it still has ways to heal itself to not be too dependant on the Elementalist... BUT the help from it will be appreciated still of course.

>

> Then comes the Warrior. The "easy for beginners to get into" class. It should have damage closer to Deadeye than Elementalist, but still near the range of the two either way. The heals on this class would be the weakest of the three, but makes up for it quite well with it having some boons and traits to boosts it's defense in being a close ranged class.

>

> Putting all 3 in a Raid should compliment each other and the only thing that should come out of it is that they work better with all 3 of them on field together... BUT if you had 2 Elementalist and a Warrior or 3 Deadeyes or 2 Warriors and a Deadeye, it shouldn't be a drastic difference in the outcome/dps for it to really stand out.

>

> In PvP putting all 3 head to head should be a neck and neck fight.

> You have the Elementalist having magic and supports to keep it alive but heavy hits to keep the other 2 in line.

> You have the Deadeye who has Range, some heals, and a bit of defense and maneuvers to keep him in line to try and take on the other 2.

> You have the Warrior that might not have great mobility or heals, but has the skills to just roll through some of the stuff that the other 2 has to throw at it and still be a decent challenge.

> All it would come down to is the players and how they play the class and how they set their class up.

> It would be "oh well this class don't have good dps/support/heal/defense/blahblahblah" it would be all up to the player... that and of course their equipment. Can't have someone in level 1 gear and expect them to do as well as someone with Exotics or Ascended. They should not do completely horrible but not as good as someone with better equipment.

>

> WvW would get the same feeling as PvP because now anyone and everyone would be able to hold their own weight. Everyone's class will work.

>

> I'm not a balancing dev, but it really shouldn't be hard to take classes that you can sell are not doing great in one instance and boost that and those that shows it's doing a little TOO well than the others to nerf it down a bit.

>

> My 2 mains are my 2 1st made characters. One is a Necro and one is a Thief.

> There's things on Thief that I know should be buffed BUT I know there's things that could get a nerf on Thief. Same on Necro needs buffing in certain areas, but certain things kind of showing "Hey... I need a little tweaking as I'm a bit strong here."

> Same can be said for Engineers and Mesmers and Revenants and whatever else.

>

> I should not feel a hit in performance when let's say I go from a Guardian which has some skills to heal/defend/support myself BUT have some good attack/damage from whether Core or Fire or Dragonhunter... then going to a Mesmer and seeing that I do have some things to support and defend... and my damage is good as a Mirage and debatable as a core... but now as a Chrono my damage is... well...

 

do ya really think ranging is effective? if ya range ya don't get the buffs. also ya don't balance pve around health bar. it's not practical. people jsut take squishy classes and get healed anyway and chrono aggros the boss. ya don't really understand how actual end game content pve works here, do ya? all the weavers go melee cuz they need to use LH, they need the boons, the aegis, the buffs and etc. it's irrelevant if ya can pew pew harder than a warr or a guard. ya should make more classes that can be at the same level as holo/dh/weaver and nerf weaver a bit since he has that power creep in fracs and KC that called "tempest defense" 20% damage against stunned enemies, like really? that's one of the reasons top speed clears are done with weavers and tempest in the past.

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Trise.2865" said:

> Are you sure that's the problem highlighted here? Look again. You see all those lfg posts saying "meta only" or using gibberish acronyms? they're STILL WAITING. They're sitting around doing nothing, hoping to find a perfect team instead of playing the game.

>

> Look at who is NOT waiting around to play. Do you see any "lfg-any" groups waiting around to fill? Nope, not a one. Are there none being made? or are they filling up INSTANTLY and are ALREADY PLAYING?

>

> Let them wait. Enjoy your game. F the meta.

 

Those other groups are busy getting wiped. I know first hand that joining an LFG that simply says "T4 dailies" has a very high chance of failure. The minimum you need to have is pots + food. I rather wait another 10 minutes for a chrono than wiping with a bunch of noobs for 30 minutes. Good players join the LFGs that ask for pots + food and for specific classes, that's why these groups end up filled with good players that don't wipe.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @"Draco.9480" said:

> > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said:

> > > @"Draco.9480" said:

> > > the problem is the balance team are on drugs and don't bother to balance the special buffs and dps among all classes. if few could be banners(something that replaces the banners with totems, spirit weapons, turrets) so more variety would be (not to stack each other if same buffs). druid shouldn't be the only mighter. others should have the options to be effective as a might buffer efficiently too. other dpsers should also have 20% damage when target stunned so weavers wouldn't be the only best option in fracs. to have balance wise with the damage.i suggested it way before but they don't listen. now ya have just elitism and class discrimination.

> >

> > What I don't understand is there a game I play on and off that has this "Holy Trinity" that is more or less balanced between the three. I'll try and explain it by taking 3 classes from this one game and just replace everything in GW2 terms.

> > There's the magic/healers which would be in this case the Elementalist and/or Necromancer.

> > There's long range dps class which in this case I would say Longbow Ranger and/or Deadeye.

> > There's the close ranged defensive tanker which let's just consider this to be Warrior and/or Guardian.

> >

> > Now if I added the balance of the other game into GW2, I'll just pick one of the 2 of these 6.

> > The Elementalist does use a lot of powerful magical attacks and also does really well in healing and/or buffing and support.

> > BUT the class is far from bad in defense. The only issue would be it has less HP than the others would be, but with the way it can also support and heal themselves it balances out.

> >

> > The Deadeye with it's rifle has a long range and for argument sake should would/should have damage at least close to the Elementalist. It can defend itself quite well and, but not as great as the upcomer. The reason being due to it's range allowing it to keep alive a bit longer. The next situation would be that it still has ways to heal itself to not be too dependant on the Elementalist... BUT the help from it will be appreciated still of course.

> >

> > Then comes the Warrior. The "easy for beginners to get into" class. It should have damage closer to Deadeye than Elementalist, but still near the range of the two either way. The heals on this class would be the weakest of the three, but makes up for it quite well with it having some boons and traits to boosts it's defense in being a close ranged class.

> >

> > Putting all 3 in a Raid should compliment each other and the only thing that should come out of it is that they work better with all 3 of them on field together... BUT if you had 2 Elementalist and a Warrior or 3 Deadeyes or 2 Warriors and a Deadeye, it shouldn't be a drastic difference in the outcome/dps for it to really stand out.

> >

> > In PvP putting all 3 head to head should be a neck and neck fight.

> > You have the Elementalist having magic and supports to keep it alive but heavy hits to keep the other 2 in line.

> > You have the Deadeye who has Range, some heals, and a bit of defense and maneuvers to keep him in line to try and take on the other 2.

> > You have the Warrior that might not have great mobility or heals, but has the skills to just roll through some of the stuff that the other 2 has to throw at it and still be a decent challenge.

> > All it would come down to is the players and how they play the class and how they set their class up.

> > It would be "oh well this class don't have good dps/support/heal/defense/blahblahblah" it would be all up to the player... that and of course their equipment. Can't have someone in level 1 gear and expect them to do as well as someone with Exotics or Ascended. They should not do completely horrible but not as good as someone with better equipment.

> >

> > WvW would get the same feeling as PvP because now anyone and everyone would be able to hold their own weight. Everyone's class will work.

> >

> > I'm not a balancing dev, but it really shouldn't be hard to take classes that you can sell are not doing great in one instance and boost that and those that shows it's doing a little TOO well than the others to nerf it down a bit.

> >

> > My 2 mains are my 2 1st made characters. One is a Necro and one is a Thief.

> > There's things on Thief that I know should be buffed BUT I know there's things that could get a nerf on Thief. Same on Necro needs buffing in certain areas, but certain things kind of showing "Hey... I need a little tweaking as I'm a bit strong here."

> > Same can be said for Engineers and Mesmers and Revenants and whatever else.

> >

> > I should not feel a hit in performance when let's say I go from a Guardian which has some skills to heal/defend/support myself BUT have some good attack/damage from whether Core or Fire or Dragonhunter... then going to a Mesmer and seeing that I do have some things to support and defend... and my damage is good as a Mirage and debatable as a core... but now as a Chrono my damage is... well...

>

> do ya really think ranging is effective? if ya range ya don't get the buffs. also ya don't balance pve around health bar. it's not practical. people jsut take squishy classes and get healed anyway and chrono aggros the boss. ya don't really understand how actual end game content pve works here, do ya? all the weavers go melee cuz they need to use LH, they need the boons, the aegis, the buffs and etc. it's irrelevant if ya can pew pew harder than a warr or a guard. ya should make more classes that can be at the same level as holo/dh/weaver and nerf weaver a bit since he has that power creep in fracs and KC that called "tempest defense" 20% damage against stunned enemies, like really? that's one of the reasons top speed clears are done with weavers and tempest in the past.

 

I said right in the beginning if I took another online game I play on and off and took their balance into GW2.

What I said does not work in GW2, but it should've if they didn't want this crap being so not balanced.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Of course there is a solution for this, an easy one, Anet should simply impose randomized groups. No "LfG" per say for fractals; you go into que, and are matched up with others who want to participate at the same level. Then ban the people if they leave their fractal groups (because they're unhappy) until next day's reset.

 

Does this mean people can't play with friends? Likely yes, but it's a case of too bad so sad; players brought this on themselves.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > 2) A person with all celestial won't have 2000 power and 2000 toughness. 30% crit, outside a couple of classes/builds (Dragonhunter and Engineer) is useless. And you'll still underperform.

> >

> > Actually, Cele Ele can have 2k Power in Fire attunement, 2k Toughness in Earth and 45% crit all the time (unbuffed) with a Signet build and Sigil of Accuracy. :D Source: my Cele Ele. Just saying for fun, not trying to argue or anything. x) And sure, it's still not "optimal" (for damage) but it's hella fun!

> > For some reason I really hate dying in games... I can't explain why but I find it embarassing when my character begs for help on the ground! Cele builds make me invincible, that's why I love them so much. Also, I 'm quite clumsy, I honestly can't handle glass cannon builds, lol.

>

> Not both at once. So, it's useless. And it's a single very niche case where you had to sacrifice better traits for that.

> If you can't play a glass cannon, why the hell are you playing Ele? I rarely die with necro or Ranger (Except falls). You don't see people playing Zerker ele or whatever dying all the time either. You just need to play better.

> Cele stats is a crutch that you're using to keep your play-style stale and under-performing. You're holding yourself back from actually enjoying the game, the accomplishment of mastering a class because you're using the most useless stat combo outside of pvp. Celestial isn't even a tanky stat... It's just the middle of the road stat that isn't one thing or the other... And like a wise man once said:

>

>

>

 

You'll eventually figure out that life isn't like a Shonen Anime where the young boy just has to train hard to get better and break all bounds of reality and skill. Some people cannot just "get better" or do not have the time to or do not possess the equipment to or find the notion of forcing ones self to perform actions within a more and more narrow bound of compatibility to gain a specific outcome unfun thus the anti-thesis of playing a game.

[Sarge shot Grif.6450]

A prime example for why I keep myself as far as physically possible from pvp/raids/fractals.

[Chris McSwag.4683]

> @"Vault Girl.6792" said:

> Here is a screenshot from lfg for T4 fractals, that's something I see everyday. Almost everyone wants a party that consists of 3 BS, one mesmer and one druid. Well, some parties are just looking for dps, but even they aren't really happy when a thief or a necro joins them. Often parties wait for more than 30 minutes just because they don't want to start without a mesmer/druid, though it can be done even without these classes.

> In WvW rangers, engineers and thieves sometimes get kicked from squads when there is not enough space for guards and scourges.

> 2 years ago it was a problem only for raids (something I don't even want to mention here), and now almost everything is affected.

>

> 

>

> What's the point in adding new specializations, when most of them are not needed anyway?

> It doesn't look like balance changes can fix this, it's only getting worse. Do you see any solutions to this problem?

>

> (I apologize for any mistakes, English isn't my first language.)

 

 

Where is your group welcoming everyone?

[Blaeys.3102]

The idea of profession diversity in GW2 died years ago. It's worse here than it ever was in most other MMOs.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> I believe this is a community problem, but it does stem from the game mechanics. As some other people have said, when it comes to Fractals and Raids, Anet have ham-fisted a pseudo-trinity combat system into a game that was never designed to cater for it in the first place. This forces players to take a healer and tank into their groups when they previously didn't need to, thus limiting the amount of spaces available to everyone else. This means that instead of having 5 spaces in a group, you now have 3 because the perception is that you always need to have a healer (druid) and a tank (chrono).

>

> The other main issue is the way the content is the lack of content and the way it is set-up. Most PvE players who have been around for awhile have done each fractal countless times to the point where it's no longer fun for them. So why do they do it? For the rewards. T4 daily fractals are very efficient gold farming activities, and are a good way of acquiring acended gear for your alts inbetween raids. So even though players are very bored with them, they do them every day for the rewards. We used to do the exact same thing in WoW with heroics. On days where you weren't raiding, you would log in, do your dailies and then log off again. Obviously if you are in this scenario you want to get through the daily content as fast as possible, which in this case means running with the best possible team comp.

>

> How do we solve this problem? The devs can't introduce new content fast enough to keep up with the players, so there would need to be another way of stopping people farming t4 fractals out of boredom purely for the rewards. You could take away the raid lock and reset mechanic so that teams could complete the same raid encounters multiple times each week. Of course, then you would still have to limit the amount of rewards players got from raids, meaning you would be expecting players to kill raid bosses with no rewards. Some might be ok with this if they were still learning the mechanics, but it would also drive a lot of veterans away from raiding. Either way it doesn't fix the problem of the trinity system in a game that was never designed for it, but I have a feeling that trying to change it now would be too big of a task to manage.

 

I agree, raiding is tuned around min-maxing around the trinity and that raiding effect is bleeding into other areas of GW2 to its detriment. Instead of making fractal fights more raid like, stick with the AR model and extend AR cap. Fractals is not a raiding, it doesn't have to be tuned so the fight requires weeks or rote memorization of ever more complex boss triggers and events, that's not the goal of small party instances at all.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > @"Trise.2865" said:

> > Are you sure that's the problem highlighted here? Look again. You see all those lfg posts saying "meta only" or using gibberish acronyms? they're STILL WAITING. They're sitting around doing nothing, hoping to find a perfect team instead of playing the game.

> >

> > Look at who is NOT waiting around to play. Do you see any "lfg-any" groups waiting around to fill? Nope, not a one. Are there none being made? or are they filling up INSTANTLY and are ALREADY PLAYING?

> >

> > Let them wait. Enjoy your game. F the meta.

>

> Those other groups are busy getting wiped. I know first hand that joining an LFG that simply says "T4 dailies" has a very high chance of failure. The minimum you need to have is pots + food. I rather wait another 10 minutes for a chrono than wiping with a bunch of noobs for 30 minutes. Good players join the LFGs that ask for pots + food and for specific classes, that's why these groups end up filled with good players that don't wipe.

 

I never ask for pots and food... Good players know to have those on. If i have to remind them, then i don't want them...

I rarely wipe, and usually there's this one guy in the group that blusters AF, and when he quits/gets kicked, usually its a one try affair after.

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Of course there is a solution for this, an easy one, Anet should simply impose randomized groups. No "LfG" per say for fractals; you go into que, and are matched up with others who want to participate at the same level. Then ban the people if they leave their fractal groups (because they're unhappy) until next day's reset.

>

> Does this mean people can't play with friends? Likely yes, but it's a case of too bad so sad; players brought this on themselves.

 

No we didn't. No one brought this on anyone. People that actually do fractals daily, consistently, don't have any issues. People that want to get carried, those are the ones creating an issue.

Ruining a game type because of the people that can't give a damn about others and just want to do things their way, because everyone else is wrong but them Is beyond idiotic.> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > > 2) A person with all celestial won't have 2000 power and 2000 toughness. 30% crit, outside a couple of classes/builds (Dragonhunter and Engineer) is useless. And you'll still underperform.

> > >

> > > Actually, Cele Ele can have 2k Power in Fire attunement, 2k Toughness in Earth and 45% crit all the time (unbuffed) with a Signet build and Sigil of Accuracy. :D Source: my Cele Ele. Just saying for fun, not trying to argue or anything. x) And sure, it's still not "optimal" (for damage) but it's hella fun!

> > > For some reason I really hate dying in games... I can't explain why but I find it embarassing when my character begs for help on the ground! Cele builds make me invincible, that's why I love them so much. Also, I 'm quite clumsy, I honestly can't handle glass cannon builds, lol.

> >

> > Not both at once. So, it's useless. And it's a single very niche case where you had to sacrifice better traits for that.

> > If you can't play a glass cannon, why the hell are you playing Ele? I rarely die with necro or Ranger (Except falls). You don't see people playing Zerker ele or whatever dying all the time either. You just need to play better.

> > Cele stats is a crutch that you're using to keep your play-style stale and under-performing. You're holding yourself back from actually enjoying the game, the accomplishment of mastering a class because you're using the most useless stat combo outside of pvp. Celestial isn't even a tanky stat... It's just the middle of the road stat that isn't one thing or the other... And like a wise man once said:

> >

> >

> >

>

> You'll eventually figure out that life isn't like a Shonen Anime where the young boy just has to train hard to get better and break all bounds of reality and skill. Some people cannot just "get better" or do not have the time to or do not possess the equipment to or find the notion of forcing ones self to perform actions within a more and more narrow bound of compatibility to gain a specific outcome unfun thus the anti-thesis of playing a game.

 

Dude, i'm a 36 year old with a full time job, and i can get better and improve. If other people can't is because they didn't try. And that's the whole problem here.. Most people complaining about this stopped giving a damn, settled for the lowest common denominator, and now expect everyone else to bow to their mediocrity.

So people that actually give a damn not to be a anchor weighing down the rest of the group are the bad guys now, because people actually expect you to at least make an effort.

It's not hard to do well. If you can't do it with elementalist, since it's actually a very complicated class for high tier content like T4 and Raids, use a different class for that content and play with ele on Open world. But if you can't put in the effort then don't blame others for not wanting your company in that content. Simple as that.

You're not playing alone, and other players aren't your servants to carry you through the content. You say its unfun for you to put in the effort to improve your gameplay. I can understand that. But for me it's also unfun to wipe 5 times on a fractal because the ele is doing little more damage than the Magi Druid and dying 300 times in the process because he's tanking when he shouldn't.

I don't impose on how you play, but somehow a lot of people seem to think they should impose how they play onto others.

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > I believe this is a community problem, but it does stem from the game mechanics. As some other people have said, when it comes to Fractals and Raids, Anet have ham-fisted a pseudo-trinity combat system into a game that was never designed to cater for it in the first place. This forces players to take a healer and tank into their groups when they previously didn't need to, thus limiting the amount of spaces available to everyone else. This means that instead of having 5 spaces in a group, you now have 3 because the perception is that you always need to have a healer (druid) and a tank (chrono).

> >

> > The other main issue is the way the content is the lack of content and the way it is set-up. Most PvE players who have been around for awhile have done each fractal countless times to the point where it's no longer fun for them. So why do they do it? For the rewards. T4 daily fractals are very efficient gold farming activities, and are a good way of acquiring acended gear for your alts inbetween raids. So even though players are very bored with them, they do them every day for the rewards. We used to do the exact same thing in WoW with heroics. On days where you weren't raiding, you would log in, do your dailies and then log off again. Obviously if you are in this scenario you want to get through the daily content as fast as possible, which in this case means running with the best possible team comp.

> >

> > How do we solve this problem? The devs can't introduce new content fast enough to keep up with the players, so there would need to be another way of stopping people farming t4 fractals out of boredom purely for the rewards. You could take away the raid lock and reset mechanic so that teams could complete the same raid encounters multiple times each week. Of course, then you would still have to limit the amount of rewards players got from raids, meaning you would be expecting players to kill raid bosses with no rewards. Some might be ok with this if they were still learning the mechanics, but it would also drive a lot of veterans away from raiding. Either way it doesn't fix the problem of the trinity system in a game that was never designed for it, but I have a feeling that trying to change it now would be too big of a task to manage.

>

> I agree, raiding is tuned around min-maxing around the trinity and that raiding effect is bleeding into other areas of GW2 to its detriment. Instead of making fractal fights more raid like, stick with the AR model and extend AR cap. Fractals is not a raiding, it doesn't have to be tuned so the fight requires weeks or rote memorization of ever more complex boss triggers and events, that's not the goal of small party instances at all.

 

According to you that is... Because according to Arena net, the game and the community in general, that's not the case.

Speed Runs, Full zerker requirements for dungeons, AP requirements for Fractals, etc. Have been a part of the game wayyy before Raids even got announced. Heck you even had already people asking for stuff like all warrior zerker stat groups in dungeons for speed clears before fractals came out.

Every T4 fractal is hard, not because they were made raid like, but because they're supposed to be hard. Go do T4 Urban Battleground, Underground fractal, or any of the original fractals that haven't been reworked and take only people with all celestial gear, and then tell me how it goes.

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> The tanky builds enable them to do that much damage anyway. Mobs generally focus on toughness, remember? That single player would probably have died if the hydra accidentally sneezed on him.

>

> I fail to see why anyone should feel "guilty" running a tank. "Tanks" in GW2 with 2000+ toughness can still have 2000+ power, 30%+ crit chance and 200%+ crit dmg. And thats just power, if you put all that into condi instead you can have like 1800+ condi dmg.

 

I'm afraid your first statement is inaccurate. The presence of other players splits the boss's attention, generally making it easier to play more aggressively. However, because players have no meaningful way of manipulating threat, toughness only serves to protect the individual and does little to aid nearby allies. While toughness is almost certainly a factor in GW2 threat mechanics, I don't believe it's true that mobs generally go after the target with the highest toughness.

 

I feel guilty because my primary contribution in a squad as any class/build other than support is to deal damage. I do believe there is some value to staying alive longer via toughness. However, ultimately, that is only helpful **to the squad** if the amount of damage I deal using a tanky build exceeds what I am able to manage using a glass build. Unfortunately, that is unlikely because, as using arcdps has illuminated for me, the DPS disparity between tanky builds and glass builds is quite large.

 

I didn't have a proper tanky condi set handy to perform this test, so I threw on celestial ascended (I kept my weapons Viper) with undead runes and appropriate food/utility. The celestial build does quite well, but still only produces about half the DPS of the viper build. Also, consider that I am still using fully offensive traits, celestial has a significant amount of offense on it, and my weapons are still viper stats. In other words, take this as something closer to a best-case scenario for a tanky build.

 

Tanky (Celestial w/ Viper weapons):

 

Glass (Full Viper):

 

Obviously, the tankier build is perfectly adequate, defeating the boss well before the timer. However, the viper build is twice as fast. In the context of a large group event, taking twice as long to complete the event is a very big deal. The fact is that many open world events that fail do so because there are no strong damage dealers in the squad. Frustratingly, many events that succeed do so largely on the damage output of a small fraction of the squad (sometimes even just 1 player out of an entire squad!).

 

Unfortunately, my hardware is insufficient to record useful video of large boss encounters (I can barely record solo videos!), so we'll have to settle for an image. This is pretty typical of open world squads, in my experience. This is a 20+ player squad and yet the top 3 DPS carried nearly half the damage and the top DPS carried about a quarter of damage!

 


 

I hope that helps to shed some light on what I meant by feeling "guilty". That boss had 3:32 left on the timer, so if you took away those top 3 DPS the event would almost certainly have failed, despite the best efforts of ~20 other players. Even removing just the #1 DPS from the picture would make for a very close call! When I bring my tanky builds to these types of squads, I often have to sit back and watch as we fail, knowing that if I had brought my glass build we probably would have won. Feels bad man.