Apolo.5942 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 The real problem with druid is not its sustain, is its mobility. If you could reliably get on the druids face, their sustain is ok, but they do go down eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 If a Druid had any less sustain or mobility than it has now, it wouldn't be viable anymore amongst the stronger metas. It would lose its strength at the 1 thing it is good at, being a side node monkey. Druids already lose nodes to good Mirages 1v1, eventually. Druids lose nodes to good Spellbreakers, eventually. Druids are pushed off nodes by Scourges immediately, just like any other class. Druids are good at 1v2ing against physical based specs, winning 1v1s against everything except Mirage/Spellbreaker "they can kill a Scourge in time", as they delay a node decap and draw numbers. If you nerfed anything at all on Druid and I mean anything, you won't be seeing Druid players anymore and you'll be seeing a lot more Spellbreakers. Choose your poison wisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falan.1839 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 I think I will bump this thread every time someone makes a nonsense post shouting for nerfs on dogshit tier builds like scrapper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluri.2653 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > If a Druid had any less sustain or mobility than it has now, it wouldn't be viable anymore amongst the stronger metas. It would lose its strength at the 1 thing it is good at, being a side node monkey. > > Druids already lose nodes to good Mirages 1v1, eventually. Druids lose nodes to good Spellbreakers, eventually. Druids are pushed off nodes by Scourges immediately, just like any other class. Druids are good at 1v2ing against physical based specs, winning 1v1s against everything except Mirage/Spellbreaker "they can kill a Scourge in time", as they delay a node decap and draw numbers. > > If you nerfed anything at all on Druid and I mean anything, you won't be seeing Druid players anymore and you'll be seeing a lot more Spellbreakers. Choose your poison wisely. Wrong. Druid > Mirage. Druid stalemates and even in some scenarios beat spellbreakers (see UGO tournament where Lefrere beats Obindo, both obviously top tier on Druid/Spellbreaker) You can literally run around the node vs a spellbreaker and just use regen/troll urgent to sustain urself vs a SB to hold a cap, you don't even have to astral lol The only class on paper that can actually force a druid to lose it's cap is a scourge and in reality that will never happen in a conquest game unless enemy team legit has zero clue about rotations or anything really. I've also heard from various exceptional druids that they beat scourge as well so I might even be wrong in that regard. So no literally everything you said is false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"bluri.2653" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > If a Druid had any less sustain or mobility than it has now, it wouldn't be viable anymore amongst the stronger metas. It would lose its strength at the 1 thing it is good at, being a side node monkey. > > > > Druids already lose nodes to good Mirages 1v1, eventually. Druids lose nodes to good Spellbreakers, eventually. Druids are pushed off nodes by Scourges immediately, just like any other class. Druids are good at 1v2ing against physical based specs, winning 1v1s against everything except Mirage/Spellbreaker "they can kill a Scourge in time", as they delay a node decap and draw numbers. > > > > If you nerfed anything at all on Druid and I mean anything, you won't be seeing Druid players anymore and you'll be seeing a lot more Spellbreakers. Choose your poison wisely. > > Wrong. Druid > Mirage. Druid stalemates and even in some scenarios beat spellbreakers (see UGO tournament where Lefrere beats Obindo, both obviously top tier on Druid/Spellbreaker) You can literally run around the node vs a spellbreaker and just use regen/troll urgent to sustain urself vs a SB to hold a cap, you don't even have to astral lol > > The only class on paper that can actually force a druid to lose it's cap is a scourge and in reality that will never happen in a conquest game unless enemy team legit has zero clue about rotations or anything really. > > I've also heard from various exceptional druids that they beat scourge as well so I might even be wrong in that regard. So no literally everything you said is false You're talking about a single isolated instance concerning a Druid winning vs a Mirage. And a Druid vs Spellbreaker is arguably at disadvantage concerning stalling a decap or full capping, kind of depends on who is the better player in the end. But either way, what I said is true in 95% of other encounters and everyone reading this thread who does not use the multi tool hack program or minion, knows what I mean when I say: * Druids stalemate a Spellbreaker but usually, the Spellbreaker gets the upper hand and the Druid has to peel briefly for a regroup and in that time the node gets decapped. * Druids just lose to Mirages in time. The condi DPS pressure, when distributed in smaller more consistent DPS application rather than large bursting, is unable to be mitigated due to Druid only have 2 full bar condi cleanses rather than many smaller ones that happen more frequently. In the end, you can't dodge roll everything and the Mirage pressure will out DPS the Druid's heal. Judging from the last two 1v1 tournaments we ran in NA, which did involve top players, there is a reason why rules were put in to ban Mirage as a specialization selection. It is not slightly dominant in 1v1, it is clearly dominant in 1v1s. This was decided from much community response, including top players. Druid is the top pick when Mirage is banned though. Hey not saying a Druid cannot beat a Mirage, I do it often myself. But in general, a very good Mirage will win against a very good Druid 90% of engagements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluri.2653 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"bluri.2653" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > If a Druid had any less sustain or mobility than it has now, it wouldn't be viable anymore amongst the stronger metas. It would lose its strength at the 1 thing it is good at, being a side node monkey. > > > > > > Druids already lose nodes to good Mirages 1v1, eventually. Druids lose nodes to good Spellbreakers, eventually. Druids are pushed off nodes by Scourges immediately, just like any other class. Druids are good at 1v2ing against physical based specs, winning 1v1s against everything except Mirage/Spellbreaker "they can kill a Scourge in time", as they delay a node decap and draw numbers. > > > > > > If you nerfed anything at all on Druid and I mean anything, you won't be seeing Druid players anymore and you'll be seeing a lot more Spellbreakers. Choose your poison wisely. > > > > Wrong. Druid > Mirage. Druid stalemates and even in some scenarios beat spellbreakers (see UGO tournament where Lefrere beats Obindo, both obviously top tier on Druid/Spellbreaker) You can literally run around the node vs a spellbreaker and just use regen/troll urgent to sustain urself vs a SB to hold a cap, you don't even have to astral lol > > > > The only class on paper that can actually force a druid to lose it's cap is a scourge and in reality that will never happen in a conquest game unless enemy team legit has zero clue about rotations or anything really. > > > > I've also heard from various exceptional druids that they beat scourge as well so I might even be wrong in that regard. So no literally everything you said is false > > You're talking about a single isolated instance concerning a Druid winning vs a Mirage. And a Druid vs Spellbreaker is arguably at disadvantage concerning stalling a decap or full capping, kind of depends on who is the better player in the end. But either way, what I said is true in 95% of other encounters and everyone reading this thread who does not use the multi tool hack program or minion, knows what I mean when I say: > * Druids stalemate a Spellbreaker but usually, the Spellbreaker gets the upper hand and the Druid has to peel briefly for a regroup and in that time the node gets decapped. > * Druids just lose to Mirages in time. The condi DPS pressure, when distributed in smaller more consistent DPS application rather than large bursting, is unable to be mitigated due to Druid only have 2 full bar condi cleanses rather than many smaller ones that happen more frequently. In the end, you can't dodge roll everything and the Mirage pressure will out DPS the Druid's heal. > > Judging from the last two 1v1 tournaments we ran in NA, which did involve top players, there is a reason why rules were put in to ban Mirage as a specialization selection. It is not slightly dominant in 1v1, it is clearly dominant in 1v1s. This was decided from much community response, including top players. Druid is the top pick when Mirage is banned though. > > Hey not saying a Druid cannot beat a Mirage, I do it often myself. But in general, a very good Mirage will win against a very good Druid 90% of engagements. > Misha loses to any good druid in a 1v1 scenario, you have lower sustain than a chrono and your damage as a mirage is burst which is easily cleansed by a druid. So no, you are mistaken. I'll happily have misha duel any druid for you and it will show you the same outcome. Just look at our monthlies when he 1v1 any decent druid he will have to leave with portal. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Spellbreaker does no fucking pressure to druid: incredible regrouping he had to do. This is also for your information PRE NERF spellbreaker when it was on crack Now please do me a favour and stop giving false information when you have no clue what ur talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > Ranger > > Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill. Your changes to nerf Druid also nerf Core Ranger and Soulbeast very hard as well. A common complaint on the ranger forums is the fact that longbow 3 is _too_ hard to hit. Many have suggested that the stealth get applied instantly and the projectile immobilizing or doing something else entirely. There are so many projectile denial and reflects that running longbow in general is considered bad in any scenario other than 1v1. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Instead, I would propose to change Celestial Avatar. The first 4 skills essentially do the same thing. The 1 is a **small heal**. The 2 is a **small heal** with a _small condition cleanse_. The 3 is a **bigger heal** with a _blast finisher_. The 4 is a **big heal** with a _water field_. The 5 is **damage** and _roots you in place_. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1. Cosmic Ray is essentially useless. Removing the healing and adding burning or some sort of damage, while turning it from a insanely hard to land water drop to a projectile/beam would be fantastic. This would lower the personal sustain while giving Celestial Avatar and option to damage as well as support. 2. Seed of Life should have the same radius as the Lunar Impact and cleanse 2 condis instantly instead of 1. The healing can be removed. 3. Lunar Impact should remain the same. 4. Rejuvenating Tides should drop a Minor Healing Spring on the ground for 3 seconds. This no longer channels a large amount of healing, but instead leaves behind a blast-able water field that cleanses 3 conditions if you remain in the radius. 5. Natural Convergence should able to be cast while moving. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I don't think increasing the cast time of Hunter's Shot or Troll Unguent is an effective change. These changes would likely destroy the weapon and heal completely and people would most likely start using Greatsword and We Heal as One instead. Core Rangers and Soulbeasts are fine in terms of their survivability. The issues arise when 4/5 skills on Celestial Avatar ALL heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"bluri.2653" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"bluri.2653" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > If a Druid had any less sustain or mobility than it has now, it wouldn't be viable anymore amongst the stronger metas. It would lose its strength at the 1 thing it is good at, being a side node monkey. > > > > > > > > Druids already lose nodes to good Mirages 1v1, eventually. Druids lose nodes to good Spellbreakers, eventually. Druids are pushed off nodes by Scourges immediately, just like any other class. Druids are good at 1v2ing against physical based specs, winning 1v1s against everything except Mirage/Spellbreaker "they can kill a Scourge in time", as they delay a node decap and draw numbers. > > > > > > > > If you nerfed anything at all on Druid and I mean anything, you won't be seeing Druid players anymore and you'll be seeing a lot more Spellbreakers. Choose your poison wisely. > > > > > > Wrong. Druid > Mirage. Druid stalemates and even in some scenarios beat spellbreakers (see UGO tournament where Lefrere beats Obindo, both obviously top tier on Druid/Spellbreaker) You can literally run around the node vs a spellbreaker and just use regen/troll urgent to sustain urself vs a SB to hold a cap, you don't even have to astral lol > > > > > > The only class on paper that can actually force a druid to lose it's cap is a scourge and in reality that will never happen in a conquest game unless enemy team legit has zero clue about rotations or anything really. > > > > > > I've also heard from various exceptional druids that they beat scourge as well so I might even be wrong in that regard. So no literally everything you said is false > > > > You're talking about a single isolated instance concerning a Druid winning vs a Mirage. And a Druid vs Spellbreaker is arguably at disadvantage concerning stalling a decap or full capping, kind of depends on who is the better player in the end. But either way, what I said is true in 95% of other encounters and everyone reading this thread who does not use the multi tool hack program or minion, knows what I mean when I say: > > * Druids stalemate a Spellbreaker but usually, the Spellbreaker gets the upper hand and the Druid has to peel briefly for a regroup and in that time the node gets decapped. > > * Druids just lose to Mirages in time. The condi DPS pressure, when distributed in smaller more consistent DPS application rather than large bursting, is unable to be mitigated due to Druid only have 2 full bar condi cleanses rather than many smaller ones that happen more frequently. In the end, you can't dodge roll everything and the Mirage pressure will out DPS the Druid's heal. > > > > Judging from the last two 1v1 tournaments we ran in NA, which did involve top players, there is a reason why rules were put in to ban Mirage as a specialization selection. It is not slightly dominant in 1v1, it is clearly dominant in 1v1s. This was decided from much community response, including top players. Druid is the top pick when Mirage is banned though. > > > > Hey not saying a Druid cannot beat a Mirage, I do it often myself. But in general, a very good Mirage will win against a very good Druid 90% of engagements. > > > > Misha loses to any good druid in a 1v1 scenario, you have lower sustain than a chrono and your damage as a mirage is burst which is easily cleansed by a druid. So no, you are mistaken. I'll happily have misha duel any druid for you and it will show you the same outcome. Just look at our monthlies when he 1v1 any decent druid he will have to leave with portal. > > You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Spellbreaker does no kitten pressure to druid: > > > > > > incredible regrouping he had to do. This is also for your information PRE NERF spellbreaker when it was on crack > > Now please do me a favour and stop giving false information when you have no clue what ur talking about In a strict 1v1 build, Mirage beats Druid hands down. Druids only have 2 full condi cleanses. Once those are used, there is generally a 20-30 second window in which our condi removal is weakened (only cleansing 1-2 at a time). All a Mirage has to do is keep sustained condi pressure on a Druid and he'll be forced to retreat or die. Not to mention longbow is completely useless against a well played Mirage and its almost impossible to keep pressure with s/wh without eating massive amounts of conditions in return. As for Spellbreaker vs. Druid, this is a stalemate. A Spellbreaker definitely has an easier time killing a Druid if he messes up. However, a Druid will struggle to out damage a Spellbreaker's sustain. Generally, this fight only ends when someone from either team rotates for the +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 With all the talk of druid I think something needs to be addressed by people who are discussing: Do you want it balanced as team support or 1v1 side node fighter? Cause that will heavily impact changes. If you want it balanced as a support then buff it's healing in CA and feel free to have pet stats scale with player stats. Won't matter if you have a hard time killing the druid if can never kill you either and it's not like you'll have to 1v1 it because it'd be better as a support for teamfights. Then you leave soulbeast as the 1v1 oriented spec for ranger and you can balance it's sustain and such accordingly. If you want druid to remain a duelist then you have to reduce the sustain enough to make druid killable in 1v1 without requiring the ultimate screw up from the ranger. Just saying there's a ton of conflicting suggestions going on and nobody has given any definition of what the end goal of the druid spec should be role wise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corey.6451 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Ario.8964" said: > With all the talk of druid I think something needs to be addressed by people who are discussing: Do you want it balanced as team support or 1v1 side node fighter? Cause that will heavily impact changes. If you want it balanced as a support then buff it's healing in CA and feel free to have pet stats scale with player stats. Won't matter if you have a hard time killing the druid if can never kill you either and it's not like you'll have to 1v1 it because it'd be better as a support for teamfights. Then you leave soulbeast as the 1v1 oriented spec for ranger and you can balance it's sustain and such accordingly. > > If you want druid to remain a duelist then you have to reduce the sustain enough to make druid killable in 1v1 without requiring the ultimate screw up from the ranger. > > Just saying there's a ton of conflicting suggestions going on and nobody has given any definition of what the end goal of the druid spec should be role wise For druid. One simple nerf. Just increase the cool down from celestial avatar form from 15s to 20s, or even 25-30s. That way, we cant spam the ca form anymore, this will open up a counter play against the druid, and druid will only use it at the right time if not, it is a mistake on their side. Because at the moment, if even the druid not in real danger he just use it like it is not a big deal because of the really short cool down on them ca form. And move druidic clarity to grandmaster trait and move lingering light to minor trait. This way you have to choice of either offensive or deffensive or a buff on grandmaster trait. Same goes for the minor trait. I always druidic clarity is too strong to be minor trait and same for lingering light but the other way. I always think minor and grandmaster should have these 3 basic philosophy which is OFFENCE/DEFENSE/BUFF. and master trait should be utility enhancement. NO PASSIVE EVER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"corey.6451" said: > > @"Ario.8964" said: > > With all the talk of druid I think something needs to be addressed by people who are discussing: Do you want it balanced as team support or 1v1 side node fighter? Cause that will heavily impact changes. If you want it balanced as a support then buff it's healing in CA and feel free to have pet stats scale with player stats. Won't matter if you have a hard time killing the druid if can never kill you either and it's not like you'll have to 1v1 it because it'd be better as a support for teamfights. Then you leave soulbeast as the 1v1 oriented spec for ranger and you can balance it's sustain and such accordingly. > > > > If you want druid to remain a duelist then you have to reduce the sustain enough to make druid killable in 1v1 without requiring the ultimate screw up from the ranger. > > > > Just saying there's a ton of conflicting suggestions going on and nobody has given any definition of what the end goal of the druid spec should be role wise > > For druid. One simple nerf. Just increase the cool down from celestial avatar form from 15s to 20s, or even 25-30s. That way, we cant spam the ca form anymore, this will open up a counter play against the druid, and druid will only use it at the right time if not, it is a mistake on their side. Because at the moment, if even the druid not in real danger he just use it like it is not a big deal because of the really short cool down on them ca form. > > And move druidic clarity to grandmaster trait and move lingering light to minor trait. This way you have to choice of either offensive or deffensive or a buff on grandmaster trait. Same goes for the minor trait. I always druidic clarity is too strong to be minor trait and same for lingering light but the other way. > > I always think minor and grandmaster should have these 3 basic philosophy which is OFFENCE/DEFENSE/BUFF. and master trait should be utility enhancement. NO PASSIVE EVER. That's all well and good but you still haven't defined the role druid is supposed to take with these changes. Is this supposed to balance it towards 1v1 or for teamfighting? What do you see the ranger doing in a team after this change is put through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallun.2071 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 Theres no point discussing mirage vs druid matchup when one side assumes the meta 5v5 comp mirage that will always lose to a druid, and others are assuming a 1v1 mirage spec that was used in a 1v1 tournament but is completely useless in 5v5s where you need to rotate. Also you guys keep mentioning my changes to ranger as nerfing soulbeast and core ranger, but don't really make any argument for why that is bad. Soulbeast isn't that bad, it just doesn't fit a specific role and is overshadowed by druid. My changes are not even massive nerfs, they are just small cast time increases. You understand that the difference between an animation being dodgeable/interuptable and being completely uninteractable is only around half a second. Thats it. If you spam troll unguent next to someone YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED if they have an interupt ready. If you're in melee range of a ranger, hunter's shot should not be an instant stealth for them to escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corey.6451 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Ario.8964" said: > > @"corey.6451" said: > > > @"Ario.8964" said: > > > With all the talk of druid I think something needs to be addressed by people who are discussing: Do you want it balanced as team support or 1v1 side node fighter? Cause that will heavily impact changes. If you want it balanced as a support then buff it's healing in CA and feel free to have pet stats scale with player stats. Won't matter if you have a hard time killing the druid if can never kill you either and it's not like you'll have to 1v1 it because it'd be better as a support for teamfights. Then you leave soulbeast as the 1v1 oriented spec for ranger and you can balance it's sustain and such accordingly. > > > > > > If you want druid to remain a duelist then you have to reduce the sustain enough to make druid killable in 1v1 without requiring the ultimate screw up from the ranger. > > > > > > Just saying there's a ton of conflicting suggestions going on and nobody has given any definition of what the end goal of the druid spec should be role wise > > > > For druid. One simple nerf. Just increase the cool down from celestial avatar form from 15s to 20s, or even 25-30s. That way, we cant spam the ca form anymore, this will open up a counter play against the druid, and druid will only use it at the right time if not, it is a mistake on their side. Because at the moment, if even the druid not in real danger he just use it like it is not a big deal because of the really short cool down on them ca form. > > > > And move druidic clarity to grandmaster trait and move lingering light to minor trait. This way you have to choice of either offensive or deffensive or a buff on grandmaster trait. Same goes for the minor trait. I always druidic clarity is too strong to be minor trait and same for lingering light but the other way. > > > > I always think minor and grandmaster should have these 3 basic philosophy which is OFFENCE/DEFENSE/BUFF. and master trait should be utility enhancement. NO PASSIVE EVER. > > That's all well and good but you still haven't defined the role druid is supposed to take with these changes. Is this supposed to balance it towards 1v1 or for teamfighting? What do you see the ranger doing in a team after this change is put through? 1v1. Because the only thing we can do is heal to support, we dont have any meaningfull boon application and condition clense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corey.6451 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Please stop. If you know me. You will know that im a druid main(90% of my pvp match is with ranger), even i think the current S tier meta is the strongest 1v1, it dosent lose to anything 1v1, either you win or you wont die. And why i said this. Because im not bias and want the game to be better, not telling anet to buff my main all the time. As soon as people stop being bias anet will listen to the community more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link.1049 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I've given up on achieving a more balanced game. Anet's made it pretty clear they've stopped caring as well. If everyone just switches to the most OP classes and throws away their other characters they've spent hundreds of hours on, then everyone will be OP..so no one will be OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corey.6451 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Falan.1839" said: > I think I will bump this thread every time someone makes a nonsense post shouting for nerfs on kitten tier builds like scrapper. Ikr. The reason i dont post any balance sugestion about the other class other than ranger is because i dont fully understand the other classes, with ranger i main it since launch so i know the class inside out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbroe.4329 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Lazze.9870" said: > > @"jcbroe.4329" said: > > @"Vallun.2071" > > For the Druid suggestions, I think you have the right idea, although I'm not sure touching the LB is a change that would really solve anything in the long run. > > > > I'm sure you've noticed people are jumping at the opportunity to try and throw more ICDs on traits and rip functionality out of options they perceive to be too strong in a bubble because they don't understand how builds/classes work. > > > > So I was just wondering if your list would be agreeable to some of my suggestions to target the overperformance of the particular Druid metabuild trait combination by reducing it's crazy resource (Astral Force) generation compared to a build that isn't running Wilderness Survival (Rugged Growth) and Troll Unguent. > > > > Something like: > > * Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. This would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with: > > * Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced). > > > > > > Druids balancing factor/mechanic has always been that it's a resource mechanic, and unlike previous iterations of popular Druid builds that had to actively engage in fights while making sure they distributed Regen at a time when it wouldn't got stolen/ripped to actually generate enough AF to even think about using CF on cooldown, the WS/NM trait combination has removed all of the characteristics of prior Druid builds that made them counterplayable. > > > > If people were still running around trying to make the shout build work and the current build didn't exist, I don't think that Druid would even be on serious discussion tables for nerfs. > > > > That's why I'm hoping that people will realize that it's a very particular trait setup and skillbar that abuses the balancing factors/mechanics of Druid, and that those should be addressed so that overperforming builds get nerfed appropriately without hurting other Druid and other Ranger specs. > > Except you are hurting core ranger and other spec. Regen abilities have much higher values for, lets say, a power ranger build with longbow than what a trait that would improve the effect of protection would have. Ranger isn't a class designed to take hits, parts of its core kit revolve around lots of access to regen (and different regen sources that overlap) and evade on weapon skills. > > Make both Druid Clareity and Celestial Shadow master traits. Move the glyph trait to adept and give that seed thing back its two condition cleanses. Same exact question to you; how do you imagine that the changes I suggested are nerfs? Same total Healing from Troll Unguent and just an entirely different function for Rugged Growth that resembles the old Bark Skin. Please explain what the nerf is. So please, given this for reference (again): * Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. This would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with: * Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced). Explain the nerf. Matter of fact, let's get some more opinions going on this. @"bluri.2653" glad to see you chiming into the conversation. You have a grasp of the Ranger/Druid class and how the game mechanics work, thoughts? I hate to ask again but @"Vallun.2071", same boat and reasoning, do you feel that these changes "nerf Ranger and Soulbeast into the ground without touching Druid?" @"shadowpass.4236" @"Shadelang.3012" fellow, respected Ranger mains, care to input/comment? I'm genuinely trying to generate some logical, constructive conversation on the topic, so please, any input would be fantastic. (An earlier response I gave was to a person who has a history of non-constructive anti Druid rhetoric and verbally dismissing/attacking peoples position, if it at all seemed hostile). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > Theres no point discussing mirage vs druid matchup when one side assumes the meta 5v5 comp mirage that will always lose to a druid, and others are assuming a 1v1 mirage spec that was used in a 1v1 tournament but is completely useless in 5v5s where you need to rotate. Also you guys keep mentioning my changes to ranger as nerfing soulbeast and core ranger, but don't really make any argument for why that is bad. Soulbeast isn't that bad, it just doesn't fit a specific role and is overshadowed by druid. My changes are not even massive nerfs, they are just small cast time increases. You understand that the difference between an animation being dodgeable/interuptable and being completely uninteractable is only around half a second. Thats it. If you spam troll unguent next to someone YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED if they have an interupt ready. If you're in melee range of a ranger, hunter's shot should not be an instant stealth for them to escape. Just like when Anet increased Arc Divider's cast time by .25 seconds and the only way to somewhat reliably hit it was with quickness? Hunter's Shot is the only defensive mechanism we have on longbow. If it doesn't hit due to the myriad of projectile hate being thrown around, we're left wide open. Increasing the cast time to an already easy to predict skill that finds its uses in _many_ core ranger and soulbeast builds, is obviously a really hard nerf to builds that aren't even overperforming. If you have a problem with Druid's sustain, nerf Druid. Don't throw out a nerf to one of our weapon sets just because one of our two elite specs has too much sustain. Why not add a cast time to Infiltrator's Arrow? _"Thieves have too much mobility and you should be punished if they have an interrupt ready. If you're in melee range of a thief, Infiltrator's Arrow should not be an instant teleport for them to escape."_ So what did Anet do? They nerfed Dash spamming instead of shortbow because Dash only affects the problem builds while a nerf to shortbow affects Core Thief _and_ Deadeye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallun.2071 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > Theres no point discussing mirage vs druid matchup when one side assumes the meta 5v5 comp mirage that will always lose to a druid, and others are assuming a 1v1 mirage spec that was used in a 1v1 tournament but is completely useless in 5v5s where you need to rotate. Also you guys keep mentioning my changes to ranger as nerfing soulbeast and core ranger, but don't really make any argument for why that is bad. Soulbeast isn't that bad, it just doesn't fit a specific role and is overshadowed by druid. My changes are not even massive nerfs, they are just small cast time increases. You understand that the difference between an animation being dodgeable/interuptable and being completely uninteractable is only around half a second. Thats it. If you spam troll unguent next to someone YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED if they have an interupt ready. If you're in melee range of a ranger, hunter's shot should not be an instant stealth for them to escape. > > Just like when Anet increased Arc Divider's cast time by .25 seconds and the only way to somewhat reliably hit it was with quickness? > > Hunter's Shot is the only defensive mechanism we have on longbow. If it doesn't hit due to the myriad of projectile hate being thrown around, we're left wide open. Increasing the cast time to an already easy to predict skill that finds its uses in _many_ core ranger and soulbeast builds, is obviously a really hard nerf to builds that aren't even overperforming. If you have a problem with Druid's sustain, nerf Druid. Don't throw out a nerf to one of our weapon sets just because one of our two elite specs has too much sustain. > > Why not add a cast time to Infiltrator's Arrow? > _"Thieves have too much mobility and you should be punished if they have an interrupt ready. If you're in melee range of a thief, Infiltrator's Arrow should not be an instant teleport for them to escape."_ > So what did Anet do? They nerfed Dash spamming instead of shortbow because Dash only affects the problem builds while a nerf to shortbow affects Core Thief _and_ Deadeye. Terrible analogies. Arc divider's nerf was a good change because it could not be dodged due to its quick animation. Also not only does infiltrators arrow have a cast time it has a delayed shadowstep afterwards. Hunters shot has absolutely 0 animation. If you want "free" escapes then you want to be not punished for bad positioning on a class that already has so many get out of jail free buttons (look at signets). I still don't see why longbow 3 shouldn't be nerfed if soulbeasts can use it too. I don't think a soulbeast should have a no animation stealth either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikki.7891 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Ranger longbow does have some subtle animations when firing the projectile. They could improve on that by making it more noticeable as I am sure it scapes those inexperienced with the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Someone ping the devs to pass this thread on the class balance team :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obindo.6802 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > Arc divider's nerf was a good change because it could not be dodged due to its quick animation. Arc divider was perfectly dodgable. Berserker needed nerf but that change was just stupid. Same with headbutt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > Theres no point discussing mirage vs druid matchup when one side assumes the meta 5v5 comp mirage that will always lose to a druid, and others are assuming a 1v1 mirage spec that was used in a 1v1 tournament but is completely useless in 5v5s where you need to rotate. Also you guys keep mentioning my changes to ranger as nerfing soulbeast and core ranger, but don't really make any argument for why that is bad. Soulbeast isn't that bad, it just doesn't fit a specific role and is overshadowed by druid. My changes are not even massive nerfs, they are just small cast time increases. You understand that the difference between an animation being dodgeable/interuptable and being completely uninteractable is only around half a second. Thats it. If you spam troll unguent next to someone YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED if they have an interupt ready. If you're in melee range of a ranger, hunter's shot should not be an instant stealth for them to escape. > > > > Just like when Anet increased Arc Divider's cast time by .25 seconds and the only way to somewhat reliably hit it was with quickness? > > > > Hunter's Shot is the only defensive mechanism we have on longbow. If it doesn't hit due to the myriad of projectile hate being thrown around, we're left wide open. Increasing the cast time to an already easy to predict skill that finds its uses in _many_ core ranger and soulbeast builds, is obviously a really hard nerf to builds that aren't even overperforming. If you have a problem with Druid's sustain, nerf Druid. Don't throw out a nerf to one of our weapon sets just because one of our two elite specs has too much sustain. > > > > Why not add a cast time to Infiltrator's Arrow? > > _"Thieves have too much mobility and you should be punished if they have an interrupt ready. If you're in melee range of a thief, Infiltrator's Arrow should not be an instant teleport for them to escape."_ > > So what did Anet do? They nerfed Dash spamming instead of shortbow because Dash only affects the problem builds while a nerf to shortbow affects Core Thief _and_ Deadeye. > > Terrible analogies. Arc divider's nerf was a good change because it could not be dodged due to its quick animation. Also not only does infiltrators arrow have a cast time it has a delayed shadowstep afterwards. Hunters shot has absolutely 0 animation. If you want "free" escapes then you want to be not punished for bad positioning on a class that already has so many get out of jail free buttons (look at signets). I still don't see why longbow 3 shouldn't be nerfed if soulbeasts can use it too. I don't think a soulbeast should have a no animation stealth either. Hunter's Shot is a black-purple smoky arrow that fires after the bow is rapidly brought up. The cast time is faster than the auto attack, so dodge when you see the bow twitch. I've been doing ranger vs. ranger duels for years. One of the ways to gain an advantage is dodging the Hunter's Shot so your opponent can't stealth. It is relatively predictable and the arrow is a lot darker than the rest of the projectiles. It's not a no animation stealth. If you pay attention, you can dodge it. At least this stealth can be avoided. Black Powder + Bound is still one of the most annoying combos to deal with because it CANNOT be stopped due to the evade giving stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallun.2071 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > Theres no point discussing mirage vs druid matchup when one side assumes the meta 5v5 comp mirage that will always lose to a druid, and others are assuming a 1v1 mirage spec that was used in a 1v1 tournament but is completely useless in 5v5s where you need to rotate. Also you guys keep mentioning my changes to ranger as nerfing soulbeast and core ranger, but don't really make any argument for why that is bad. Soulbeast isn't that bad, it just doesn't fit a specific role and is overshadowed by druid. My changes are not even massive nerfs, they are just small cast time increases. You understand that the difference between an animation being dodgeable/interuptable and being completely uninteractable is only around half a second. Thats it. If you spam troll unguent next to someone YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED if they have an interupt ready. If you're in melee range of a ranger, hunter's shot should not be an instant stealth for them to escape. > > > > > > Just like when Anet increased Arc Divider's cast time by .25 seconds and the only way to somewhat reliably hit it was with quickness? > > > > > > Hunter's Shot is the only defensive mechanism we have on longbow. If it doesn't hit due to the myriad of projectile hate being thrown around, we're left wide open. Increasing the cast time to an already easy to predict skill that finds its uses in _many_ core ranger and soulbeast builds, is obviously a really hard nerf to builds that aren't even overperforming. If you have a problem with Druid's sustain, nerf Druid. Don't throw out a nerf to one of our weapon sets just because one of our two elite specs has too much sustain. > > > > > > Why not add a cast time to Infiltrator's Arrow? > > > _"Thieves have too much mobility and you should be punished if they have an interrupt ready. If you're in melee range of a thief, Infiltrator's Arrow should not be an instant teleport for them to escape."_ > > > So what did Anet do? They nerfed Dash spamming instead of shortbow because Dash only affects the problem builds while a nerf to shortbow affects Core Thief _and_ Deadeye. > > > > Terrible analogies. Arc divider's nerf was a good change because it could not be dodged due to its quick animation. Also not only does infiltrators arrow have a cast time it has a delayed shadowstep afterwards. Hunters shot has absolutely 0 animation. If you want "free" escapes then you want to be not punished for bad positioning on a class that already has so many get out of jail free buttons (look at signets). I still don't see why longbow 3 shouldn't be nerfed if soulbeasts can use it too. I don't think a soulbeast should have a no animation stealth either. > > Hunter's Shot is a black-purple smoky arrow that fires after the bow is rapidly brought up. The cast time is faster than the auto attack, so dodge when you see the bow twitch. > > I've been doing ranger vs. ranger duels for years. One of the ways to gain an advantage is dodging the Hunter's Shot so your opponent can't stealth. It is relatively predictable and the arrow is a lot darker than the rest of the projectiles. > > It's not a no animation stealth. If you pay attention, you can dodge it. At least this stealth can be avoided. Black Powder + Bound is still one of the most annoying combos to deal with because it CANNOT be stopped due to the evade giving stealth. You're avoiding my points completely. In melee range there is no projectile, so there is no animation. Also you would never ever want to stealth in the ranger vs ranger matchup because you would just lose cap progess. More evidence that your opinions are based on 1v1 duel server balance and not 5v5 conquest balance which is the whole premise of this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > > > > Theres no point discussing mirage vs druid matchup when one side assumes the meta 5v5 comp mirage that will always lose to a druid, and others are assuming a 1v1 mirage spec that was used in a 1v1 tournament but is completely useless in 5v5s where you need to rotate. Also you guys keep mentioning my changes to ranger as nerfing soulbeast and core ranger, but don't really make any argument for why that is bad. Soulbeast isn't that bad, it just doesn't fit a specific role and is overshadowed by druid. My changes are not even massive nerfs, they are just small cast time increases. You understand that the difference between an animation being dodgeable/interuptable and being completely uninteractable is only around half a second. Thats it. If you spam troll unguent next to someone YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED if they have an interupt ready. If you're in melee range of a ranger, hunter's shot should not be an instant stealth for them to escape. > > > > > > > > Just like when Anet increased Arc Divider's cast time by .25 seconds and the only way to somewhat reliably hit it was with quickness? > > > > > > > > Hunter's Shot is the only defensive mechanism we have on longbow. If it doesn't hit due to the myriad of projectile hate being thrown around, we're left wide open. Increasing the cast time to an already easy to predict skill that finds its uses in _many_ core ranger and soulbeast builds, is obviously a really hard nerf to builds that aren't even overperforming. If you have a problem with Druid's sustain, nerf Druid. Don't throw out a nerf to one of our weapon sets just because one of our two elite specs has too much sustain. > > > > > > > > Why not add a cast time to Infiltrator's Arrow? > > > > _"Thieves have too much mobility and you should be punished if they have an interrupt ready. If you're in melee range of a thief, Infiltrator's Arrow should not be an instant teleport for them to escape."_ > > > > So what did Anet do? They nerfed Dash spamming instead of shortbow because Dash only affects the problem builds while a nerf to shortbow affects Core Thief _and_ Deadeye. > > > > > > Terrible analogies. Arc divider's nerf was a good change because it could not be dodged due to its quick animation. Also not only does infiltrators arrow have a cast time it has a delayed shadowstep afterwards. Hunters shot has absolutely 0 animation. If you want "free" escapes then you want to be not punished for bad positioning on a class that already has so many get out of jail free buttons (look at signets). I still don't see why longbow 3 shouldn't be nerfed if soulbeasts can use it too. I don't think a soulbeast should have a no animation stealth either. > > > > Hunter's Shot is a black-purple smoky arrow that fires after the bow is rapidly brought up. The cast time is faster than the auto attack, so dodge when you see the bow twitch. > > > > I've been doing ranger vs. ranger duels for years. One of the ways to gain an advantage is dodging the Hunter's Shot so your opponent can't stealth. It is relatively predictable and the arrow is a lot darker than the rest of the projectiles. > > > > It's not a no animation stealth. If you pay attention, you can dodge it. At least this stealth can be avoided. Black Powder + Bound is still one of the most annoying combos to deal with because it CANNOT be stopped due to the evade giving stealth. > > You're avoiding my points completely. In melee range there is no projectile, so there is no animation. Also you would never ever want to stealth in the ranger vs ranger matchup because you would just lose cap progess. More evidence that your opinions are based on 1v1 duel server balance and not 5v5 conquest balance which is the whole premise of this post. You never want to stealth in general on a point because you'd lose cap progress... That's one of the downsides to CA and running longbow. After stealthing 3 times, the point ends up neutral. There is still a projectile and the animation is still there. Just because you're in melee range doesn't mean you gain stealth automatically. Maybe I have a lot more experience fighting rangers than you, but while the projectile isn't easy to dodge, it's not that hard either. There is a noticeable animation. If you can react fast enough, you can dodge it. I led an all ranger guild with 250+ members for 2 years. One of the types of training I offered to them was how to effectively fight against and counter a ranger. I focused a lot on avoiding Point Blank Shot and Hunter's Shot on a point. It's doable. I'm not against nerfing a Druid's sustain. But longbow is definitely _not_ the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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