Pay-To-Win specs

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"Offair.2563" said:

> > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > Core Warrior arguably does better than Spellbreaker in roaming and small scale PvP.

> >

> > Spellbreaker very much is a sidegrade rather than upgrade.

>

> Same goes for druid vs soulbeast, i did pay for it but didnt win anything in the end.

 

You don't have to lug your pet around - that's a small win. :D

[Gallows.4318]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > @"Offair.2563" said:

> > > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > Core Warrior arguably does better than Spellbreaker in roaming and small scale PvP.

> > >

> > > Spellbreaker very much is a sidegrade rather than upgrade.

> >

> > Same goes for druid vs soulbeast, i did pay for it but didnt win anything in the end.

>

> You don't have to lug your pet around - that's a small win. :D

 

True. But those examples really exemplifies that it's not a matter of P2W, but simply a general balance issue. Several of the core specs are better than their elite counterparts, just from my own experience with a ton of play time on thief, necromancer and ranger.

[Cobrakon.3108]

It is Pay To Win if Core competes with PoF or HoT. Nothing can change that. Only if Core had a separate pvp mode could u claim it wasn't pay to win. But I guess there are some core specs that are doing okay atm. But I'd say for the most part both expansions blow core out of the water.

[titje.2745]

lol you love the game but dont buy the xpacks, for me its normal when i like a game and it gets new content (xpack) i buy it if i like the base game.

its good that they work on new xpacks because then its worth working on it and the game lives. its better then only give small content or shut down the game because the income is low.

 

and if they make an xpack and the new specs are very bad why would ppl then buy the new xpack. then they create things for nothing. and the price was very good 30 euro, even i didnt buy the basic version.

[Odinens.5920]

Question - how do you expect Anet to make any money if what you're asking them to do is to make expansions free? This is not a P2W game. P2W would be them putting new elite specs in the gem store. Elite specs ARE part of the content you spoke of.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > Full game means having all expansion. You are expected to buy them. If you don't, you are not playing full game which means you can't expect being equal in power to someone playing full game.

>

> Not answering my question, is paying for the expansion paying for an advantage or not? lol. Evidently, it is. Pay-to-win=Paying for an advantage over other players.

 

If i buy the next wow expac do i pay to win over my friend who didnt buy it?

[Zedek.8932]

OP sounds like the boss of a small company and expects his employees to take more responsibility - without paying them more.

Now reverse it and you will see this thread in another shape, but the same meaning.

 

For someone not playing for years and thus skipping a lot, he (or she) seem to think he can just play as usual despite not spending a single dime in that time. As in: "Just wait until I will be back, but don't move, don't.. do anything. I might come back. But keep paying your employees so when I want to come back - maybe - then I want to just skip back in and all the other plays have to mark time, too, no progression please."

 

I think I like the paywall more and more, because to me, it marks a necessary stop to all the freebie cheapskates that buy iPhones and TVs with a high win margin with no deeper thoughts, but when it comes to food or games, they suddenly come up with random statements about why (not) to spend money.. You know that when a thread starts with **"I like the game"** [That's why I quitted for years!].

 

Excelsior.

[Felipe.1807]

> @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> First off I want to say **I love GW2** and I think it is a **great game**. However after coming back from a few years of not playing, I noticed their business model changed radically. Now they are selling specializations?! There's no denying that someone who does not purchase these specs has a severe disadvantage against those who do. Guild Wars 2 was doing great, it's still a great game but.. selling overpowered specs is something I highly disagree with. I am happy to spend money on GW2, I already have purchased the Heart Of Thorns expansion but.. I just feel it is quite wrong, and very pay to win, to sell these specs to players in order to be viable in pvp. They need to find another way to sell expansions to make the business model fair again.

 

Calling GW2 pay to win just shows that you have no idea how a true P2W game works...P2W would be gem store weapons give a "X"% damage boost or armor give "Y"% of armor, or Mounts skins giving extra speed...PoF specs being stronger then core or HoT are a balance issue, if PoF were truly P2W, players would have zero chance against others while playing core builds.

[blambidy.3216]

As far as p2w I doubt it. The elite specs are still balanced to regular traits. Elite specs are just a different way to play your class. As far as better? No. Just different. A daredevil thief that’s d/p is like playing sword and cloak daredevil. Just a different way to play.

 

Ranger condi build Is still a great spec.

Engi condi is great.

 

But b2w specs? Naw. Just today’s age people think that some specs are outdated. But the specs are great no matter how u use them.

 

The only things f2p players don’t have are the expansions and some chat things. And the daily aquirements like laurels. But as far as elites and etc? No. F2P accounts can still get ascended gear. F2P accounts can still do pvp, dungeons, fractals. Etc. but buy to win? No.

 

Some things I do wish arenanet didn’t put but hey. No one wants to put a sub on gw2 so they can put whatever they want. But the items in there aren’t b2w.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

> @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > Game is B2P. You are expected to buy expansions. GW2 is not P2W. Yet.

>

> Are you denying the fact that someone who purchases no expansions at all, has a disadvantage against those who have access to all the elite specs? That is literally paying for an advantage lol. If PAYING FOR AN ADVANTAGE is not pay to win, then NOTHING is.

 

I've been having great fun running core builds against the new spec builds and rolling those people on the new specs. There are some great core builds that counter the new ones fairly well in fact. Ergo, the game is not P2W. Sounds more like a L2P issue.

[Rhyse.8179]

The original game is 100% free. The expansions are Buy To Play and have no subscription. If you want to play it, just buy the expansions already. It's a fair deal and better then a subscription model.

[Etterwyn.5263]

> @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > Game is B2P. You are expected to buy expansions. GW2 is not P2W. Yet.

> >

> > Are you denying the fact that someone who purchases no expansions at all, has a disadvantage against those who have access to all the elite specs? That is literally paying for an advantage lol. If PAYING FOR AN ADVANTAGE is not pay to win, then NOTHING is.

>

> I've been having great fun running core builds against the new spec builds and rolling those people on the new specs. There are some great core builds that counter the new ones fairly well in fact. Ergo, the game is not P2W. Sounds more like a L2P issue.

 

Ugh I hate L2P games! Those are the absolute worst! I'm never giving Anet another dime... stupid stupid L2P games are everywhere these days.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Nope, as far from P2W as can be.

 

As an example, a vanilla ranger with a LB picking their nose would wipe out a PoF scourge quite quickly. Now if before a PvP match started if you could purchase additional things like permanent reflect for the duration of the match, then that my friend, is P2W

 

Would a vanilla ranger beat a Soulbeast? Certainly, if the Soulbeast got knocked down

[Menadena.7482]

While there is a jump from base specializations to the elites it is to ANY elite (as the name implies) and you can only have one of them active. The goal is to have the elites balanced (not that you can always do that). For example, I bought both expansions, looked at the new elites, and decided to play with my mix of base professions and HOT elites.

[Thanathos.2063]

I just want to quickly add that it's not really an argument that you have to buy an expansion to get stronger. It's like arguing that every game with a trial version is pay to win since you don't have access to everything, ergo you can't play / win everything. Some could also say that every game is pay to win since no pay = no play = no win.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Thanathos.2063" said:

> I just want to quickly add that it's not really an argument that you have to buy an expansion to get stronger. It's like arguing that every game with a trial version is pay to win since you don't have access to everything, ergo you can't play / win everything. Some could also say that every game is pay to win since no pay = no play = no win.

 

To be fair, people with only the core game may have paid for it while people playing a trial version of a game did not. I think that there is a significant difference between a trial version player and a paying customer.

 

If one paying customer has an advantage over another paying customer, based on how much they each paid, then an argument of pay to win can be made.

[Despond.2174]

You're receiving less favorable responses because you're trying to argue a technicality.

 

GW2 has the most fairest cash shop and B2P model out of ALL the other top MMOs. You're not meant to have access to EVERYTHING playing for free, but you get MORE than enough playing for free to decide if you want to support this game. Many of the core builds are quite sufficient in all game modes, more than enough for someone to decide if they like this game and willing to actually dedicate their gaming time and a small cash payment to it.

 

Speaking of supporting GW2, the minimal support you have to give if you want to play this game to it's full opportunities is 2 expansions, and 2 expansions with the most ridiculously cheap price out of all the other MMOs. So no, people who support this game which is needed for it to ever continue are MEANT to have access to more. That's fair and has never been denied.

 

GW2 also has the least gear grind of ANY top MMO. There are 2 top tiers of stats @ max level and you're done for the whole duration of GW2. Even at this moment, we have a FREE farm in Istan that is comfortably 15-20g/hr, you could craft a piece of ascended gear every 3-4 hours and that piece will NEVER be beaten stats wise. We have Living World 3 which basically hands you all ascended trinkets in a basket for a very small grind. Even before Istan, SW chest farm was also free, or at worst any LW season a poultry gem price you could farm in a day. You could easily farm 15+g/hr just doing Lake Doric leather runs, there's so many ways to get decent gold for free. Yes, if you use your CC you can skip ahead, but you can more than enough keep up with free farming methods.

 

So we have a massive amount of free trial content for you to decide if you want to support the game, massive free gold farming that requires you to just join an LFG group and pew pew everything near a tag, a near linear gear progression system that makes that ascended GS you craft years ago still the best and will still be the best every year after, AND 2 mega cheap expansions that give you a huge range of bonus content. Sounds awesome to me.

 

There's nothing to complain about, this game is incredibly cheap and new player friendly, that's why you're not going to get much sympathy using "P2W" which has the negative connotation that it's one of these extreme CASH SHOP p2w MMOs that have non-stop gear grind and if you don't use money you WILL constantly fall behind. GW2 gives an incentive for people to buy expansions, that's just common sense because if they don't the game ceases to exist, it's still the most fairest MMO out there for the content it produces. :)

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> If one paying customer has an advantage over another paying customer, based on how much they each paid, then an argument of pay to win can be made.

 

Only if one stretches the meaning of "pay to win" to include expansion features, like new professions (or in GW2's case, specializations).

 

The problem with this thread and threads like it is that people keep using the same phrases to mean very different things. The OP uses a definition of "pay to win" that isn't historically relevant. The words "advantage" & "benefit" can be construed in all sorts of ways. What do people mean by "win" or even "pay"? It's not consistent within this thread (sometimes even from one post to a subsequent post by the same person).

 

From a purely technical point of view, of course paying more means you have access to more. And of course that's an advantage. What's odd or wrong about that?

 

When people use "pay to win" seriously to raise concerns, it's not about getting more or having more, it's about fairness. It's about whether the person who paid less has a reasonable chance to experience the same type of game as the one who paid more.

 

In BDO, there's no "autolooting" unless you spring for extras (a type of mini pet in that game). That's absolutely an advantage conferred via RL cash. But is it unfair? Well, it made the game less enjoyable for me personally, to the point where I didn't enjoy playing. But unfair? Not in the least. The game played fine, I had plenty of opportunity to enjoy the game.

 

In GW2, people who buy expansions have access to all sorts of features that F2P and Core players do not. Is that unfair? I don't think so. And I don't think anyone has made a strong case that it is unfair.

[Gandrogh.1530]

Easy fix : remove the free game access like it was before. No more whiners about p2w gw2

[Gallows.4318]

I am more concerned with general balance, than balance between Expansion and core components. The general balance of GW2 is very good. Incredibly good actually when you compare to other MMOs. ESO for instance has some fundamental balance issues of core game mechanics - some specific builds, rotations and tricks can make you absolutely invulnerable to other builds that are still in top tier gear. While ESO has a lot of freedom in terms of builds, many builds are absolutely useless - you need specific things to play PvP. GW2 is on a whole other level of fine balance, so complaining about the small differences between elite and core specs is silly.

[Retsuko.2035]

Funny enough, keeping yourself to core specs instead of the expansion ones doesn't make you any stronger really. Some core builds are still very viable and good to use. So buying expansion for the specs can not be considered p2w at all.

The new stats however, like trailblazer, viper, minstrel etc. Those I would say make the real difference in WvW and PvP, or even in PvE if you care enough. But like everyone already says, it's kinda silly to consider gw2 as a p2w game. You're basically paying for content. New specs or new statted armor/weapons is part of that content.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> Facts: Paying for an expansion gives you an advantage in PvP over those who have not paid for these specs.

> Pay-To-Win: Paying for an advantage.

> That is literally the definition.

 

Tell that to the core specs that are doing well in PvP and WvW and Raids and everywhere in game....

[Gallows.4318]

I am still waiting for an example of a MMO with better PvP balance than GW2. I'll Trade my personal copy of the 1865 map of the fairy treasure Islands for a great example.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Gallows.4318" said:

> I am still waiting for an example of a MMO with better PvP balance than GW2. I'll Trade my personal copy of the 1865 map of the fairy treasure Islands for a great example.

 

Online Tetris.

 

I’ll take that map now.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > If one paying customer has an advantage over another paying customer, based on how much they each paid, then an argument of pay to win can be made.

>

> Only if one stretches the meaning of "pay to win" to include expansion features, like new professions (or in GW2's case, specializations).

>

> The problem with this thread and threads like it is that people keep using the same phrases to mean very different things. The OP uses a definition of "pay to win" that isn't historically relevant. The words "advantage" & "benefit" can be construed in all sorts of ways. What do people mean by "win" or even "pay"? It's not consistent within this thread (sometimes even from one post to a subsequent post by the same person).

>

> From a purely technical point of view, of course paying more means you have access to more. And of course that's an advantage. What's odd or wrong about that?

>

> When people use "pay to win" seriously to raise concerns, it's not about getting more or having more, it's about fairness. It's about whether the person who paid less has a reasonable chance to experience the same type of game as the one who paid more.

>

> In BDO, there's no "autolooting" unless you spring for extras (a type of mini pet in that game). That's absolutely an advantage conferred via RL cash. But is it unfair? Well, it made the game less enjoyable for me personally, to the point where I didn't enjoy playing. But unfair? Not in the least. The game played fine, I had plenty of opportunity to enjoy the game.

>

> In GW2, people who buy expansions have access to all sorts of features that F2P and Core players do not. Is that unfair? I don't think so. And I don't think anyone has made a strong case that it is unfair.

 

I dont think that it is a stretch to make the argument if one can spend real money to get an advantage in PvP. That said, I dont think it is unfair even if I would rather have not seen elite specs, in some (if not all) cases, implemented as upgrades from core specs.