Astralporing.1957 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Miroe.2054" said: > The OP's claim that raids have ruined a game which otherwise has been good doesn't make a lot of sense. It may not have a lot of sense _to you_, but it doesn't mean it's not what has actually happened. You're simply not seeing the big enough picture. No, raids per se didn't make the game worse. The change in game development goals that caused devs to include raids, coupled with change in player mentality caused by inclusion of raids and the strength of apparent dev support for this content however **did** change the game as a whole, and thus could have ruined it for those that liked what it was before. At this moment it doesn't really mean if raids are merely a symptom of deeper problems, or whether their introduction pushed devs to go in directions they didn't consider before. All that matters is that the game started to turn sour at around the same time raids were introduced, and those both things are strongly tied to each other. You, personally, may like the changes, or not care enough to notice them, but other people may have other opinions. Don't try to pretend however that nothing has changed, that there was no shift in game direction, and that if we ignore raids the rest f the game is completely as it was before. The only person you're discrediting that way is yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miroe.2054 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: >And you never discredited anyone. Still nothing? Look, here's someone who can argue your point: > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Miroe.2054" said: > > The OP's claim that raids have ruined a game which otherwise has been good doesn't make a lot of sense. > It may not have a lot of sense _to you_, but it doesn't mean it's not what has actually happened. You're simply not seeing the big enough picture. > > No, raids per se didn't make the game worse. The change in game development goals that caused devs to include raids, coupled with change in player mentality caused by inclusion of raids and the strength of apparent dev support for this content however **did** change the game as a whole, and thus could have ruined it for those that liked what it was before. It changed the game in so far that there was now content that was targeting only a small set of players and elitist behaviour wasn't exclusive to PvP anymore. This change ruined the game for two groups: 1. People who needed a constant stream of new content that was geared specifically to them and didn't like raids. 2. People who would do only random group PvE and now could not get around that new, toxic element within their game mode. Fine, I give you this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotOverlyCheesy.9427 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Only place you can’t avoid this is pug raids. Blaming only dps meters and meta seems silly on it’s own. If you truely enjoyed the game you could’ve played despite those fringe annoyances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Miroe.2054" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > >And you never discredited anyone. > > Still nothing? Look, here's someone who can argue your point: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Miroe.2054" said: > > > The OP's claim that raids have ruined a game which otherwise has been good doesn't make a lot of sense. > > It may not have a lot of sense _to you_, but it doesn't mean it's not what has actually happened. You're simply not seeing the big enough picture. > > > > No, raids per se didn't make the game worse. The change in game development goals that caused devs to include raids, coupled with change in player mentality caused by inclusion of raids and the strength of apparent dev support for this content however **did** change the game as a whole, and thus could have ruined it for those that liked what it was before. > > It changed the game in so far that there was now content that was targeting only a small set of players and elitist behaviour wasn't exclusive to PvP anymore. This change ruined the game for two groups: > > 1. People who needed a constant stream of new content that was geared specifically to them and didn't like raids. > 2. People who would do only random group PvE and now could not get around that new, toxic element within their game mode. > > Fine, I give you this. I already explained in one of comments why raids affect everyone. Feel free to read. You probably skipped it during your unjustified mock up session towards OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genesis.5169 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 So what are you suggesting a full removal of raids out of the game? Do you want open world only content I'm not really following. No ones forcing you to do a raid know ones forcing you to do t4s. And so I'm not entirely sure what you're angry about. If you don't like instanced content don't do it but don't come around here advocating for the removal of Content out of the game that other people play because you don't enjoy it that's not fair and its not just. So what are you suggesting? And it seems to me like you're suggesting the complete removal of completely optional content out of the game because you are not a fan of it. If i am wrong correct me if I'm not then you need to understand that there's more than just one type of player who plays thid game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShiningSquirrel.3751 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 I had a guild that came over from GW1 and several other games. I am also the last surviving member of a 3 guild alliance from GW1. I am still here because I simply play the way I want. I will not play meta, hate the word hate the whole idea of it. I use the build I have the most fun playing and do the content that I have fun doing. I don't like raids, fractals or jumping puzzles, so I simply do not do them. If someone does not want to play with me due to my equipment or build, well that's just fine as I would not want to play with anyone so narrow minded and elitist. There are a lot of bad players out there who believe that you have to do things their way or not at all, just don't play with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notebene.3190 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Started without any friends. Still no friends... :/ ...but still playing. :# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miroe.2054 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > I already explained in one of comments why raids affect everyone. Feel free to read. You probably skipped it during your unjustified mock up session towards OP. You blamed some undefined group of people for your guild not living up to your expectations. You added nothing to the OP's point exept maybe some passive aggressive cry for compassion, which I sincerely have for your situation. Also I propose you google the term "mockup". > @"Astralporing.1957" edited: > You, personally, may like the changes, or not care enough to notice them, but other people may have other opinions. Don't try to pretend however that nothing has changed, that there was no shift in game direction, and that if we ignore raids the rest f the game is completely as it was before. The only person you're discrediting that way is yourself. A lot of things have changed. Some things have been taken out of the game but raids have only ever added to it. As I already said this might in the big picture have ruined the game for A: people who need so much content of a certain kind that the developers focussing on something different at times makes them lose interest and B: People without guilds who are at the mercy of the group finder. But this is a long shot from the "data-driven, rotation-locked, mmorpg experience" the OP claims we all play now. I know you want everybody else to pay attention to this issue. But it really isn't that relevant to anyone in neither of these two subgroups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wmtyrance.3571 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Jarvis.9540" said: > DPS meters, raid-mentality, and meta-obsession were all things that were against the original design philosophy of this game. As soon as ANET caved and started giving into that crowd, they immediately lost sight of their own vision for the game. This is the reason my friends and I no longer play it. If we wanted a data-driven, rotation-locked, mmorpg experience, there are plenty of other games to choose from. Yup same thing happened with my 9 friends that started at launch. Everyone was so hyped about that vision which turned out to be a lie because all the players complaining it wasn't like Wow. So they just caved. Why i can't stand most of the people that play this game anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Miroe.2054" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > I already explained in one of comments why raids affect everyone. Feel free to read. You probably skipped it during your unjustified mock up session towards OP. > You blamed some undefined group of people for your guild not living up to your expectations. You added nothing to the OP's point exept maybe some passive aggressive cry for compassion, which I sincerely have for your situation. Also I propose you google the term "mockup". > > > @"Astralporing.1957" edited: > > You, personally, may like the changes, or not care enough to notice them, but other people may have other opinions. Don't try to pretend however that nothing has changed, that there was no shift in game direction, and that if we ignore raids the rest f the game is completely as it was before. The only person you're discrediting that way is yourself. > > A lot of things have changed. Some things have been taken out of the game but raids have only ever added to it. As I already said this might in the big picture have ruined the game for A: people who need so much content of a certain kind that the developers focussing on something different at times makes them lose interest and B: People without guilds who are at the mercy of the group finder. But this is a long shot from the "data-driven, rotation-locked, mmorpg experience" the OP claims we all play now. I know you want everybody else to pay attention to this issue. But it really isn't that relevant to anyone in neither of these two subgroups. That's not true. It's relevant to people outside those subgroups as well. And i have already explained why. Also, while it may be _a long shot from the "data-driven, rotation-locked, mmorpg experience"_, but it's still much closer to it than it was before. For many, it may be _too_ close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Jarvis.9540" said: > DPS meters, raid-mentality, and meta-obsession were all things that were against the original design philosophy of this game. As soon as ANET caved and started giving into that crowd, they immediately lost sight of their own vision for the game. This is the reason my friends and I no longer play it. If we wanted a data-driven, rotation-locked, mmorpg experience, there are plenty of other games to choose from. A data driven, rotation locked, mmorpg experience is available to choose, if one so desires, in GW2, but is not mandatory. One has to actually go looking for it. If one actively goes looking for something to be offended by one will always find it, no matter where one is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torolan.5816 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Anet made some stuff pretty well at the beginning, and they do many good things today. But in my perception they failed to keep Anet an outstanding game. Outstanding in a way that you could say: "This is what makes GW2 stand out beside combat abilities and you will find no other game that does it too." It is actually still a fine game. But on a scale of Very Rare - Rare - Uncommon and Common, I would give it an Uncommon stamp today where it was surely a very rare shinning example around ls1. Today it lacks the strict all are equal so come and play as you are philosophy, it has some hard to circumvent cliffs for race additions(personal story, clipping issues), the story is often nonsensical fanservice, it already disappointed right from the start with the promise of a dynamic world and a wvw that is of any consequence of whatsover if not for some meager boni for pve. Of course you cannot hope for everything, and I personally would have been satisfied when they had aimed for a majority of these things. I am mainly interested in an exciting story, a wvw that tells the tale of heroic defenders of the realm and an immersive, moving(contrary to expanding) world. Everything else I listed is wanted but more or less optional. In the current game, I see neither of that. The story is of course a subjective experience, so I can´t really blame Anet for that, it just adds to my perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miroe.2054 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > That's not true. It's relevant to people outside those subgroups as well. And i have already explained why. Also, while it may be _a long shot from the "data-driven, rotation-locked, mmorpg experience"_, but it's still much closer to it than it was before. For many, it may be _too_ close. You have argued that there was a shift in player mentality. But a competitive mentality has already existed within PvP. And you can still choose the players you are playing with. You don't have to put up with any elitist behaviour if you aren't reliant on PuGs. The second thing you have argued is that there is developer support for those parts of the game, which means that raids are replacing or delaying other priorities. It takes some kind of entitlement to demand a dev team can never do something different to keep its game fresh just so all ressources are flowing into the things oneself cares about. But I understand the thought process. Is there anything specific I have missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 At a guess, a huge percentage of those unhappy about the existence of raids are unhappy because Legendary items locked behind raid participation are not available in general PvE. Were raid rewards "only" better access to Ascended items and a few titles, people would have been much more willing to ignore raids. If there's anything that the history of GW2 shows, it is that ANet was unable to establish the "because it's fun" motivation to repeat content in the absence of pixelated rewards as a mainstay for enough of the game population to sustain high interest. GW2 is now about 5.5 years old. A lot of vets have obtained a lot of the non-Legendary rewards that are available just via play (i.e., not play for gold to convert to gems). A major carrot like Legendary Armor (the skin, and/or functionality for those who don't want to PvP/WvW) being locked behind niche PvE content was very much a change in the game's reward philosophy. This change was always going to affect more players than the existence of raids -- or the acceptance of a DPS meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Solution remove raids and amor and fractals and breakbars from game and most of pve and pvp and wvw community will love it XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rauderi.8706 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"notebene.3190" said: > Started without any friends. Still no friends... :/ > > ...but still playing. :# I wonder what would happen with all these peeps with no friends made a guild. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > Solution remove raids and**_ amor_** and fractals and breakbars from game and most of pve and pvp and wvw community will love it XD If you remove the amor, how can there be any love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bish.8627 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 I fully agree with OP, even when fractals came out I said it was the wrong direction along with ascended. But the game went that way. However I would say, even though the elitism present in raiding and fractals, PvP to an extent even WvW puts me off. I still enjoy the game finding my own corner to do what I want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianmiguel.8517 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Jarvis.9540" said: > DPS meters, raid-mentality, and meta-obsession were all things that were against the original design philosophy of this game. As soon as ANET caved and started giving into that crowd, they immediately lost sight of their own vision for the game. This is the reason my friends and I no longer play it. If we wanted a data-driven, rotation-locked, mmorpg experience, there are plenty of other games to choose from. You're ridiculous. Like 95% of the players in the game don't give a crap about any of the things you just mentioned. Don't let the door hit ya on the way out <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Miroe.2054" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > I already explained in one of comments why raids affect everyone. Feel free to read. You probably skipped it during your unjustified mock up session towards OP. > You blamed some undefined group of people for your guild not living up to your expectations. You added nothing to the OP's point exept maybe some passive aggressive cry for compassion, which I sincerely have for your situation. Also I propose you google the term "mockup". Even if it's true (it isn't) it's still better than your meming. Also, there is nothing to add really. Raid content triggered chain of events for OP's guild to break up which I experienced myself and that's why I will always consider this is worst addition to GW2 ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"Jarvis.9540" said: > > DPS meters, raid-mentality, and meta-obsession were all things that were against the original design philosophy of this game. As soon as ANET caved and started giving into that crowd, they immediately lost sight of their own vision for the game. This is the reason my friends and I no longer play it. If we wanted a data-driven, rotation-locked, mmorpg experience, there are plenty of other games to choose from. > > A data driven, rotation locked, mmorpg experience is available to choose, if one so desires, in GW2, but is not mandatory. One has to actually go looking for it. If one actively goes looking for something to be offended by one will always find it, no matter where one is. Devs already started balancing the game about meta solutions. If this continues the trend of unhappy customers will be growing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blambidy.3216 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 So your saying out of all the content those three made you leave? You still have fractals, dungeons, legendary armor for eye candy. Story. Masteries, achievements. Collections. Guild hall. Crafting. Pvp. Wvw. That’s more than enough fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blambidy.3216 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Raiding, and metas are a non have to thing. I love those but saying you guys forced to do it? No one forced you to do it. Still many things to do in the game. Jumping puzzles. Races etc. it’s nothing different than any other mmo. Which these are staples in other mmos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Jarvis.9540" said: > If we wanted a data-driven, rotation-locked, mmorpg experience, there are plenty of other games to choose from. but the data also shows how unrealistic the benchmark numbers are ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 It was a sunny day. I wanted to go out for a nice walk after a fairly cold winter. My (now ex) girlfriend at the time wanted to go shopping together (for a new spring wardrobe). We argued over which preference to pursue. It devolved into complaints about who always got their way. Then there was the state of our finances, which meant that the shopping trip, if we went, would not involve much in the way of spending on new clothing. Resentment, recrimination, and ongoing squabbling ensued. Apparently, according to the logic expressed in this thread, the sun broke up my relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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