GW2: How to kill a game making it pay 2 win

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> Some people really have no clue about what P2W is and how a real-life business works. You don't even have to pay a monthly fee to get constant content and other updates and you complain about buying a 20-30 dollar expansion every few years. Get a grip man.

>

> GW2-s payment system and F2P component is so much better than any proper MMO out there.

 

If the game was competitive option vs competitive edge, then people would probably complain about this issue less. You can bring up other MMOs, but we are talking about GW2.

 

If the game was not in some way pay-to-win, then even for players that bought both expansions who prefer core builds should be able to have a top-tier rating to their build. The core game does not even have an elite. The name of the specialization (elite) would be indicative of some type of advantage.

 

 

> @"Despond.2174" said:

> Step 1. Pay the ridiculously low price for an MMO expansion and support this franchise. You're not meant to have everything if you don't support the game by at least buying the expansions. It's such a trivial amount for such a large amount of content/changes, we're not here to play everything for free or else we will never see a GW3.

>

> You can more than enough for free to decide if you want to invest time+some money into this game. The essence of P2W does not exist whatsoever, even with gear itself, we have free gold farming methods that make 15-20g/hr, ultra easy farmable trinkets, achievement weapons, everything to get your to the top gear in a few weeks or even a month+ at a slow pace. Oh and the gear you make will be top stats for all of GW2.

>

> There's nothing to complain about, expansions need incentives to make money. The price is shockingly low compared to other MMOs.

 

 

I think you should pay for content, but I think the new skills should be **optional performance, not optimal performance**. Granted, some classes got shafted this last go around.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"cursE.1794" said:

> Step 1: Release an expansion and introduce new subclasses. Make sure the new subclasses are ridiculously overpowered compared to the old ones, but not by simply increasing some numbers. Make sure the new skills turn the entire combat system into a complete mess. Since the old classes can't compete anymore, everyone has to buy the addon, making it pay 2 win.

>

> Step 2: Repeat step 1

>

> Step 3: No further steps needed, the game is already dead.

>

> We're currently somewhere between 2 and 3.

 

Once there is an expansion, **the people that do not purchase the expansion no longer own the full game.** Pay2Win implies that people who spend exorbitant amounts of money have a greater chance to win. It doesn't apply to functionality not acquired by opting out of an expansion.

 

On top of that.

 

Core Warrior is still good.

Core Mesmer is still good.

Core Guard is still good.

Core Ranger is still good.

Core Thief is still good.

Core Ele is still good.

Core Engie still has some use.

I've seen one Core Necro. (lmao, I tried.)

 

All cash shop items can be acquired by using in game money. Lootbox keys drop in game and can be bought with in game money.

 

This is probably one of the only games I've played that actively avoids giving anyone with a fat wallet a tactical or mechanical advantage, the other being warframe.

[Kraitan.8476]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> I would NOT say buying expansions is "P2W" ... ESPECIALLY in a b2p game (without a sub).

>

> You know a better way to kill a game? NEVER MAKE ANY MONEY.

 

Looking at it purely from a pvp perspective (which is this forum right?) it kinda is pay to win.

[pah.4931]

> @"Kraitan.8476" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > I would NOT say buying expansions is "P2W" ... ESPECIALLY in a b2p game (without a sub).

> >

> > You know a better way to kill a game? NEVER MAKE ANY MONEY.

>

> Looking at it purely from a pvp perspective (which is this forum right?) it kinda is pay to win.

 

No. It's not. From any perspective. The free aspect of the game right now is a TRIAL. It was never advertised as "f2p" ... not once! It was always "b2p" in their marketing and they've held to that.

 

In WoW, when they have expansions, do you see that as p2w? Since you're not even allowed to compete at the max level without the expansion?

 

This also ignores the fact that you CAN compete and win with many core professions.

[Xillllix.3485]

When you pay for Weaver you pay to lose and get a brain aneurysm.

[witcher.3197]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> Get a job. Work one hour. Buy the expansion.

 

You don't see the bigger problem. Of course it's not that expensive, but you do have to buy it if you don't want to handicap yourself, which means there's an ever increasing powercreep as a result of the company's business model. In other words,**Anet is willingly degrading the combat system at an unsustainable rate just to force out some money** - which is silly because it's unnecessary as nearly every active player would buy the expansion anyways.

 

At this point I'd pay Anet 60$, twice the price of PoF if I could play on a server that doesn't have PoF. Make it 100 and undo HoT too.

 

Destroying the most important thing of the game because they don't trust their expansion to sell without ridiculous powercreep is what's wrong here, not the 30$ price tag.

[NeedCoffee.1402]

> @"cursE.1794" said:

> Step 1: Release an expansion and introduce new subclasses. Make sure the new subclasses are ridiculously overpowered compared to the old ones, but not by simply increasing some numbers. Make sure the new skills turn the entire combat system into a complete mess. Since the old classes can't compete anymore, everyone has to buy the addon, making it pay 2 win.

>

> Step 2: Repeat step 1

>

> Step 3: No further steps needed, the game is already dead.

>

> We're currently somewhere between 2 and 3.

 

Is this a serious post?

 

GW2 isn't P2W. Its whoever has the better hacks wins.

[Turin.6921]

So every game out there with PvP and expansions that add new classes or raise the lvl cap are P2W. Ok so basically all of them...Gotcha...

[zalt.8937]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"cursE.1794" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > @"cursE.1794" said:

> > > > You can buy stronger skills for your character and the only way to pay for it is real money. That's the definition of pay 2 win. I'm not blaming them for trying to make money, I'm blaming them for killing the combat while trying to do so.

> > >

> > > Sorry to burst your bubble but this isn't the definition of pay to win. The problem is, people love to look at words literally even though terms are often not the same as the literal definition of the words. In the case of pay to win, it was intended to indicate games where the cash shop (not expansions) sold the greatest power.

> > >

> > > Typical example would be level cap. Almost every game has the level cap go up in an expansion. Guild Wars 2 does not. This means in almost every game you're more powerful with an expansion, even games that charge a monthly fee. If you meet me in WoW on a PvP server in the open world and I'm max level and you're not, you're going to die. It's not even much of a contest. There really is no way to compete.

> > >

> > > At least in WvW and SPVP in Guild Wars 2 there's a chance. By your definition, every MMO is pay to win and the actual definition loses it's meaning.

> > >

> > > Take other games where you have to buy potions with cash and the people who can spam the most potions are going to win any fight 90% of the time. That's the very definition of pay to win. You can look it up in wikipedia and get more specifics. There's plenty of actual research you can do. Your definition of pay to win is just taking some words literally as if that's how they were originally defined. That's not the case at all.

> >

> > Here's an example that proves you wrong: In WoW, if you didn't buy the expansion, you could not play pvp at max level but you could still play pvp at lower levels and there it wouldn't make any difference if players had the expansion or not. So expansion players and vanilla players, when mixed together, had the same chances. In Guild Wars 2, expansion players and vanilla players are mixed together, in spvp as well as in wvw, but the expansion players have a huge advantage which comes from paying real money.

> >

> > Again, pay to win means that paying players have an advantage over not-paying players, especially in competitive games. I did look it up, this is a widely shared definition. It's even considered pay to win if the time it takes to gain the same advantage by simply playing the game is out of scale.

> >

> >

>

> WoW expansions introduce new classes and races with other boni that can be used in low level PvP, so yes WoW is pay to win with your definition.

 

Agreed. Bg's 50-59 when wotlk and DKs came out anyone? Or your brutal gladiator geared 70 vs a 79 twink in wsg. You couldnt even hit them as a 70 caster w/o stacking loads of hit gems. Yeah, not at all at an advantage. This guy is fantastic.

[Majirah.5089]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > Get a job. Work one hour. Buy the expansion. You are paying to play and with the hours you spend in game you get plenty of bang for the buck. If you do not want to pay for the expansions , it your choice. You can still play the content you did pay for and will get all the same boosts to those Core specs that those that buy the expansions get.

> >

> > Go out and buy a Movie Ticket at a theater If you DO buy a ticket to see "The Fantastic Four" it hardly means you can watch that and then be entitled to watch "Star trek". All you paid for was "The Fantastic Four" and its content and that all you entitled to see.

>

> I get what you are saying but very bad example. The new Fantastic Four was a kitten piece of crap movie and many felt entitled to a refund.

 

People feeling entitled is the whole problem. Doesn’t matter if it was the worst movie in the history of movies. People still bought the ticket to go see it. They got what they paid for and have no right to a refund.

 

Some people in this game seem to think they should get everything for free. Honestly I am shocked at how little you have to pay for what you get in this game.

 

If we had less entitled people in the world many many problems would go away (not just related to games).

[Strages.2950]

Why we even entertain these kinds of discussions is beyond me. Game's not P2W. If you say this, you've either never experienced a P2W game, you're horrificly poor (or cheap) and can't dish out 30-50$ every 2 years, or are just blatantly lying to yourself.

 

Balance is a problem in this game, we can all agree on that, but saying that an expansion is P2W is just a ridiculous statement that the whole community should just outright ridicule due to its absurdity.

 

Please go save 2$ a month until the next expac and then come back and play; spare us all this whiny bs.

[Dabrixmgp.4758]

If someone doesnt make enough money to be able to afford the expansion every 2 years then they shouldnt be playing games and need to work more. Hell some street plebs make more than that in a day begging.

[Cobrakon.3108]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> I would NOT say buying expansions is "P2W" ... ESPECIALLY in a b2p game (without a sub).

>

> You know a better way to kill a game? NEVER MAKE ANY MONEY.

 

The reason it is Pay to Win is because they share the same competitive mode. If a game has a game mode where old abilities and new more powerful abilities compete with each other and you need to pay to get the new abilities... you guessed it. Pay to Win.

[Arheundel.6451]

Why is there even a discussion?

It's an established truth that F2P games rely on underhanded strategies to finance their development, be it through a multitude of micro-transactions or a set of DLC which brings more powerful abilities....and in GW2 we have both

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> Why is there even a discussion?

> It's an established truth that F2P games rely on underhanded strategies to finance their development, be it through a multitude of micro-transactions or a set of DLC which brings more powerful abilities....and in GW2 we have both

 

Yes there is no discussion needed.

 

1. GW2 is _not_ F2P. It is buy to play with a really big trial.

2. P2W games offer you an unbeatable advantage (in almost all cases more stats) for real money not obtainable ingame. Not the case in GW2. With your defintion _all_ MMORPGs that sell expansions are P2W.

 

How is selling an expansion an underhanded strategy? The community wanted expansions, they got it. The plan from ArenaNet was Living World content. It was perfectly clear that expansions would cost money and won't be available for gems.

 

There are too many freeloaders around that think League of Legends is the holy grail of game design and marketing (which is awful designed, look at Dota 2 if you want an actual f2p game).

 

Is there anyone around here that played GW1 and thinks that GW2 is f2p? Why is GW2 p2w and GW1 was not?

[pah.4931]

> @"Cobrakon.3108" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > I would NOT say buying expansions is "P2W" ... ESPECIALLY in a b2p game (without a sub).

> >

> > You know a better way to kill a game? NEVER MAKE ANY MONEY.

>

> The reason it is Pay to Win is because they share the same competitive mode. If a game has a game mode where old abilities and new more powerful abilities compete with each other and you need to pay to get the new abilities... you guessed it. Pay to Win.

 

Incorrect. This is like saying Hearthstone is P2W ... or, shoot, Magic the Gathering is P2W. Or... damn, any game that has any sort of free trial is P2W.

 

Did you ever get to play in a free beta weekend and then later you had to buy the game? GOSH DARN P2W!

 

It's the business model. Anet is not a not-for-profit company. You have to buy the full game to play the full game. A game which was never advertised EVER as a free-to-play game.

 

Your perspective is just wrong. The game is pay-to-play. Like most games. And thank god that it is, otherwise this game would have shuttered already.

[Crab Fear.1624]

But we buy the expansions, why do the skills have to be more powerful than the core skills, or the previous expansion? You are buying an advantage, and you can spin it anyway you like, but when you buy an advantage, the game is Pay to Win. If the skills were different and just an option to be effective, coupled with the content, it would be fine.

If the skills were not advantageous, would we not see less of Spell Breaker, Scourge, and Firebrands in competitive game modes?

 

Granted, a few got screwed lol.

[pah.4931]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> But we buy the expansions, why do the skills have to be more powerful than the core skills, or the previous expansion? You are buying an advantage, and you can spin it anyway you like, but when you buy an advantage, the game is Pay to Win. If the skills were different and just an option to be effective, coupled with the content, it would be fine.

> If the skills were not advantageous, would we not see less of Spell Breaker, Scourge, and Firebrands in competitive game modes?

>

> Granted, a few got screwed lol.

 

Y'all are crazy. This is such absurd logic. It's like saying you have an advantage over people who didn't buy the game at all (what chance do they stand, those poor fools who have never heard of GW2!?!?)

 

You're trying to turn Anet's terrible balance into pw2 tactics? Newsflash, their class design team does NOT work on pvp content. The pvp team has to request changes from the professions design team. Heralds and Revenants and even Renegades aren't killer OP. Berserkers aren't anywhere near PvP. Scrappers are rarely seen. And Reapers are pretty weak (though they might be making a comeback?). Weavers and Deadeyes aren't generally OP in pvp. It's just the circle of life and balancing SO MANY classes.

 

Anet is not a huge company with tons of money rolling in. I get a sense that their team is quite small. You should be thanking all the people who are "paying to win" because they are "paying so you can keep playing" ... Imagine if Anet hadn't released any expansions in the last 5 years. You think this game would still be going? Or worse, what if they released these elites professions without asking for money. The game would be done-zo.

 

The game is pay2play, like any game, but Anet chose to do just expansions instead of a sub or an even worse cash shop (or actual p2w aspects).

 

If anything, you shouldn't be allowed to compete in PvP unless you have an expansion. It's a gift you're even allowed to keep playing for free. Support the game! ;)

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Cobrakon.3108" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > I would NOT say buying expansions is "P2W" ... ESPECIALLY in a b2p game (without a sub).

> >

> > You know a better way to kill a game? NEVER MAKE ANY MONEY.

>

> The reason it is Pay to Win is because they share the same competitive mode. If a game has a game mode where old abilities and new more powerful abilities compete with each other and you need to pay to get the new abilities... you guessed it. Pay to Win.

 

Which includes every game with open world PvP and a raised level cap which is virtually every MMO out there, including WoW. This is NOT the definition of pay to win. I wish people would stop taking words literally and actually do some research on what they mean.

[Crossaber.8934]

In pve RAID prospective, elite spec is better because dps and optimal is what elite players are after, 2nd best dps is not acceptable, you can find tons of post complaining they do no damage while actually their class is totally viable, meta is player issue instead of class.

 

But pvp aspect, many core class is still very competitive, like core warrior, guardian, mesmer, thief, ranger, ele are still able to beat thier elite spec counter part, player skill over spec most of the time.

 

If it is Pay to win, core should be 100% losing to elite spec no matter skill level. This is hardly pay to win, it is pay to have more options.

[MarshallLaw.9260]

It seems that perhaps too many people have a black or white mindset. Of course GW2 exists to create jobs/money for developers/staff but that is not its **sole** purpose. All those claiming that ANet is a moneygrabbing firm should consider that the main aim of the company is to create content for the consumer and be adequately compensated for it - i.e. paid for the work done.

Do people honestly believe that all ANet employees have gone into this business with no passion or pride in their product? Also "forcing players" is an ugly and often misused term regarding this topic (in my opinion).

 

Addressing the P2W aspect, this is actually a subjective view with many shades of grey and different people will view it differently.

The way I would best explain why I do not see the GW2 as P2W is this:

A P2W system is one where the more cash you put in, the better the outcome, and the cap on the improvements you can buy is very high or in some cases unreachable.

E.g. if you spent 100$ you would be 10% better (in stat terms), a further 200$ would give you another 10% and so on.

Having played a P2W MMO before, the GW2 model looks completely different. The previous game I played had top CSers (cash shoppers) dumping up to $15,000 (total) to gear out just one character and be close to max. Not to mention that 1-2 times a year, the developers would move the stat ceiling up a fraction and with a system of diminishing returns, the "elite" would have to pump a lot more cash to get to (the new) maximum. I could go into this more but the post would be way too long.

................

In conclusion, I know some might disagree but personally I don't see releasing expansions for a few £s every 2-3 years can qualify as a P2W system. In addition, addressing the title of the post, expansions are far from "killing the game", if anything, they draw new and returning players back to GW2 which is positive for everyone.

 

 

edit: corrected some spelling errors

 

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> But we buy the expansions, why do the skills have to be more powerful than the core skills, or the previous expansion? You are buying an advantage, and you can spin it anyway you like, but when you buy an advantage, the game is Pay to Win. If the skills were different and just an option to be effective, coupled with the content, it would be fine.

> If the skills were not advantageous, would we not see less of Spell Breaker, Scourge, and Firebrands in competitive game modes?

>

> Granted, a few got screwed lol.

 

Weaver is not better than tempest

Renegade is not better than Herald

Mirage is not better than Chrono

Deadeye is not better than Daredevil

Soulbeast is not better than Druid

 

That's almost half of the classes right there. If they were absolutely truthful to their "P2W" scheme, ALL of the classes would have had a major upgrade from PoF (which they didn't).

 

When you look at a lot of the specs, they are not exactly better, they are what Anet had said: An alternative way of playing.

 

The only reason why the HoT specs are not played as much is because of balancing issues on their part, but you can't exactly say it is an upgrade either.

 

From Core>HoT

Yea sure, Core is considered a 'trial' technically for the expansions.

 

From HoT>PoF?

Eh, not entirely. Maybe three classes at best, but a lot of them were either tuned down too much or we're already gutted because people screeched for it.

 

So technically the reason why, at least, a lot of the previous elites are not seen is because:

A: People are bandwagoners

B: A lot of you guys want a lot of the stronger HoT specs gutted.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > But we buy the expansions, why do the skills have to be more powerful than the core skills, or the previous expansion? You are buying an advantage, and you can spin it anyway you like, but when you buy an advantage, the game is Pay to Win. If the skills were different and just an option to be effective, coupled with the content, it would be fine.

> > If the skills were not advantageous, would we not see less of Spell Breaker, Scourge, and Firebrands in competitive game modes?

> >

> > Granted, a few got screwed lol.

>

> Y'all are crazy. This is such absurd logic. It's like saying you have an advantage over people who didn't buy the game at all (what chance do they stand, those poor fools who have never heard of GW2!?!?)

>

> You're trying to turn Anet's terrible balance into pw2 tactics? Newsflash, their class design team does NOT work on pvp content. The pvp team has to request changes from the professions design team. Heralds and Revenants and even Renegades aren't killer OP. Berserkers aren't anywhere near PvP. Scrappers are rarely seen. And Reapers are pretty weak (though they might be making a comeback?). Weavers and Deadeyes aren't generally OP in pvp. It's just the circle of life and balancing SO MANY classes.

>

> Anet is not a huge company with tons of money rolling in. I get a sense that their team is quite small. You should be thanking all the people who are "paying to win" because they are "paying so you can keep playing" ... Imagine if Anet hadn't released any expansions in the last 5 years. You think this game would still be going? Or worse, what if they released these elites professions without asking for money. The game would be done-zo.

>

> The game is pay2play, like any game, but Anet chose to do just expansions instead of a sub or an even worse cash shop (or actual p2w aspects).

>

> If anything, you shouldn't be allowed to compete in PvP unless you have an expansion. It's a gift you're even allowed to keep playing for free. Support the game! ;)

 

I pay for the content, but the new specs shouldn't automatically be new meta.

Also even the website says you don't need the last expansion to play this one(I already knew this), and also some people still have paid core accounts, (I have an alt that is).

 

Pay for content, not an advantage.

[pah.4931]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > But we buy the expansions, why do the skills have to be more powerful than the core skills, or the previous expansion? You are buying an advantage, and you can spin it anyway you like, but when you buy an advantage, the game is Pay to Win. If the skills were different and just an option to be effective, coupled with the content, it would be fine.

> > > If the skills were not advantageous, would we not see less of Spell Breaker, Scourge, and Firebrands in competitive game modes?

> > >

> > > Granted, a few got screwed lol.

> >

> > Y'all are crazy. This is such absurd logic. It's like saying you have an advantage over people who didn't buy the game at all (what chance do they stand, those poor fools who have never heard of GW2!?!?)

> >

> > You're trying to turn Anet's terrible balance into pw2 tactics? Newsflash, their class design team does NOT work on pvp content. The pvp team has to request changes from the professions design team. Heralds and Revenants and even Renegades aren't killer OP. Berserkers aren't anywhere near PvP. Scrappers are rarely seen. And Reapers are pretty weak (though they might be making a comeback?). Weavers and Deadeyes aren't generally OP in pvp. It's just the circle of life and balancing SO MANY classes.

> >

> > Anet is not a huge company with tons of money rolling in. I get a sense that their team is quite small. You should be thanking all the people who are "paying to win" because they are "paying so you can keep playing" ... Imagine if Anet hadn't released any expansions in the last 5 years. You think this game would still be going? Or worse, what if they released these elites professions without asking for money. The game would be done-zo.

> >

> > The game is pay2play, like any game, but Anet chose to do just expansions instead of a sub or an even worse cash shop (or actual p2w aspects).

> >

> > If anything, you shouldn't be allowed to compete in PvP unless you have an expansion. It's a gift you're even allowed to keep playing for free. Support the game! ;)

>

> I pay for the content, but the new specs shouldn't automatically be new meta.

> Also even the website says you don't need the last expansion to play this one(I already knew this), and also some people still have paid core accounts, (I have an alt that is).

>

> Pay for content, not an advantage.

 

But that's bad balance, not P2W. Words have meaning and when you start using them incorrectly, the meaning changes and then conversation becomes really difficult. Expansions are NOT P2W. Adding classes with each expansion, where some are strong in some situations, is NOT P2W. It's just hard to balance.

 

Personally, I think scourge is a great example. I think Anet THOUGHT they'd be support characters. Bad testing and poorly though out design (especially regarding pvp) has created this mess. Again, the PvP team is NOT the professions team. It's a bummer, but not P2W.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Lilyanna.9361" said:

 

> Mirage is not better than Chrono

 

yes, now. took about 4 or 5 months lol