GW2: How to kill a game making it pay 2 win

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"pah.4931" said:

 

> But that's bad balance, not P2W. Words have meaning and when you start using them incorrectly, the meaning changes and then conversation becomes really difficult. Expansions are NOT P2W. Adding classes with each expansion, where some are strong in some situations, is NOT P2W. It's just hard to balance.

>

> Personally, I think scourge is a great example. I think Anet THOUGHT they'd be support characters. Bad testing and poorly though out design (especially regarding pvp) has created this mess. Again, the PvP team is NOT the professions team. It's a bummer, but not P2W.

 

So we had a balance patch recently, did necro or reaper come to par with scourge?

 

 

[pah.4931]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

>

> > But that's bad balance, not P2W. Words have meaning and when you start using them incorrectly, the meaning changes and then conversation becomes really difficult. Expansions are NOT P2W. Adding classes with each expansion, where some are strong in some situations, is NOT P2W. It's just hard to balance.

> >

> > Personally, I think scourge is a great example. I think Anet THOUGHT they'd be support characters. Bad testing and poorly though out design (especially regarding pvp) has created this mess. Again, the PvP team is NOT the professions team. It's a bummer, but not P2W.

>

> So we had a balance patch recently, did necro or reaper come to par with scourge?

>

>

 

Did soulbeast come on par with druid? They are bad at balance. It sucks. I with they had a dedicated PvP split and profession designers on that team. They don't. But it's not P2W. But core guardian is still playable in PvP, as it Dragonhunter, as is core thief. I think even some core mesmer, elementalist, or core engineer can hang.

 

The word you're looking for is "powercreep" and "bad balance" ... not p2w.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

make money

buy game

enjoy

[Taltevus.3289]

Not even going to bother reading the replies becasue I know the majority of them are preaching against you.

It's just no one longer cares about GW2 PVP enough to raise hell about it... so they think it isn't the case unless there's some massive outrage against it.

[polvere.2805]

If it was for me people without expansion should not be able to play with those with the expansion. Gw2 is not a free to play game even if officially is so.

They are so nice to let you try a lot of the game without having to buy it, if you like it just spends those money on the game instead of buying the next iphone and support anet.

Pvp has a lot of viable core build (even though as i said at the beginning, players without expansion should not be allowed to play with people with full game) . Pvp is a part of the game that get expanded with expansions. Do you want to play full pvp ? Buy expansion. Seems reasonable to me.

This game is a job for them and honestly i think we all agree that if we work we want to be paid.

[Mad Dog Fargo.7543]

As soon as you go into PvP or WvW, the balance clearly and overwhelmingly favors the new classes. The elites do EVERYTHING better than the core classes. And what is more, they can do so without sacrificing nearly as much.

 

And you bet your @$$ that news of more powerful classes drove sales for people into the competitive side of the game. That's pay to win. No doubt. And MANY people have an ethical problem with that. Those who don't see the problem usually fall into the category of rabid fan making excuses because Anet can do no wrong, or complacent because they have the expansions and hence, the paid-for advantage. But don't try to say it's not a form of pay to win. Anyone who can think for themselves can see it.

 

Proof that Anet both knows better and can do better is in GW1. In Guild Wars 1, Arena Net took steps early on to separate PvE and PvP skill effects. This made it possible to balance both separately. Now, to be fair, they are beginning to do this in GW2. As a long time player of both, it is my hope they will balance the core classes and elites more evenly for PvP / WvW purposes.

 

From the beginning, the core of their marketing was a vision of a game people played because it was engaging, fun, balanced, interesting and artistically pleasing. People would play it because they WANTED to. But now people buy and play because they HAVE to in order to stay relevant. Another indicator of pay to win. And when your friends don't have the expansions or gear to play certain content, you feel it. And don't get me started on how they took away Guild Upgrades from the core game and hid them behind HoT. So now, you have to buy AGAIN to get back content you had BEFORE. That's flat out abusing your customer base. It will destroy loyal customers and kill sales.

 

What Anet doesn't understand is that people would buy the expansions without the OP elites. In fact, if Arena net kept the areas, events, gliding, mounts, story, etc...and turned the elite classes off...people would still buy and play without them. A well done game doesn't need pay to win, or time-gated crafting, or grinding skill unlocks, or temporary features stolen away behind a new pay wall. It well done game would be successful on the merits of just being GOOD. Again, these are points GW1 confirms.

 

Instead, the trend I am seeing among guildies is people playing together less, only coming to grind out requirements needed to play the new content, and just not as eager to buy the latest expansions. And that is not a sign of a good game.

 

If Anet returns to their old development habits and fixes the balance issues, it would be something we'd want to play again. But right now, there are only 2 things that keep people like me coming back. 1) Friends still in the game 2) Existing time/money invested.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

The only thing that can save this mess is gw3. That is until the same thing happens to that game.

[Voltekka.2375]

The amount of people who think pvpers/wvwers leaving the game cause of huge unaddressed balance issues, have no impact on the game's earnings, is astounding...

[Mal.1670]

Power creep is an integral part of most multiplayer online games. If you like the game there's absolutely no reason why you wouldn't be picking up the expansions anyway. Otherwise give us a suggestion of how to address this that makes everyone happy, and you can't say "get rid of elite specs" because they're an obvious mainstay to expansions that players look forward to. Paying players that want to continue supporting development of the game at least.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

Wow, this thread was really worth reviving.. geez

[choovanski.5462]

I mean, yeah it's not P2W by the official definition

 

but you can't deny that anet makes each expansion more powerful than the last and nerfs previous specs to make way (best example was berserker being neutered for spellbreaker. but there are those daredevil nerfs, as well as others.)

 

so yeah, I mean anyone who isn't playing at the level where core ranger is viable (lol what even is that level hot join?) basically has to buy PoF unless they play druid or thief (which tbh I don't think was anets intention, I just think they failed to make deadeye and soulbeast viable w buffs/nerfs). so yeah I can see how it feels P2W. it's certainly a very greedy and cynical thing to do, basically balancing your game around expansion sales

 

gw2 has had two expansions of powercreep and it's ruined the game. base health and mechanics cannot keep up with all the new bloat and spam

 

if it's P2W or not is kind of irrelevant. like, this is a similar situation to a MOBA releasing a set of skins for all it's characters every year that give them huge buffs that you need to buy w real money. it's yearly purchased powercreep. each year you pay cash to get stronger.

 

personally I couldn't care less if that actually counts as P2W or not. it's still a company ruining their game with powercreep because they are greedy for more money.

[Sylosi.6503]

> @"Mal.1670" said:

> Power creep is an integral part of most multiplayer online games. If you like the game there's absolutely no reason why you wouldn't be picking up the expansions anyway.

 

That doesn't really apply when the said expansions make what a lot of people liked about the game (the combat), worse.

 

 

[mortrialus.3062]

I genuinely don't see the harm in letting F2P players use Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire specializations in sPvP. I really can't imagine it effecting their bottom line to such a degree as to justifying creating a large difference in potential viable specs between free players and expansion players.

[TheMaverick.6104]

 

> @"cursE.1794" said:

> > @"Adenin.5973" said:

> >

> >

> > If the pvp centric people that don't think the game is worth another few dollars for an expansion every 2 years leave, I personally don't care that much and I don't think it will really hurt the games overall playerbase in numbers or affect anets earnings.

> >

> > And if you play the base game that is for free and have so little fun playing it that you think it isn't worth buying the expansions I don't think you will suffer that much by leaving the game either.

>

> That's actually one of my viewpoints: No need to make the game pay 2 win, people will buy the expansion anyway if you add good pve content.

>

> > @"Sombra.3246" said:

> > > @"cursE.1794" said:

> > > Step 1: Release an expansion and introduce new subclasses. Make sure the new subclasses are ridiculously overpowered compared to the old ones, but not by simply increasing some numbers. Make sure the new skills turn the entire combat system into a complete mess. Since the old classes can't compete anymore, everyone has to buy the addon, making it pay 2 win.

> > >

> > > Step 2: Repeat step 1

> > >

> > > Step 3: No further steps needed, the game is already dead.

> > >

> > > We're currently somewhere between 2 and 3.

> >

> > The real game killers are the players like you, spreading fake information in the community to less informed players trying to convince them that the game is dead.

> > 1. To clarify things GW2 is not P2W, what you are trying to insinuate is just false. There are no advantages you can buy with real money. All gemstore and gold items have to do with cosmetic features.

> > 2. The GW2 model is a B2P model, GW2 does not charge a monthly subscription, the way it is set up people buy the expansions to support the game and also to get the extra content associated with the expansion. All micro transaction have nothing to do with giving you an edge in game they are all cosmetic.

> > 3. Stop spreading misleading or fake information on this forum or on any other platform if you care for this game.

>

> You're the one spreading misinformation by saying there are no advantages you can buy with real money. The new specs give you a clear advantage over players who didn't buy them.

 

Most of the time im pve, but i came into pvp a bit after HoT as a way to get dungeon tokens at times when getting a dungeon parties was slow. I do play dragonhunter and i do know that newer specs can be powerful, but i havent found my way through firebrand yet, so i play DH as long as im not trying to test a build for firebrand. I find it quite satisfying that i can still thrash other players even in their PoF specs. My point is, knowing what to do helps more than what build you have once you have sone experience with it. By your logic this wouldnt be possible.

[MarshallLaw.9260]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I genuinely don't see the harm in letting F2P players use Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire specializations in sPvP. I really can't imagine it effecting their bottom line to such a degree as to justifying creating a large difference in potential viable specs between free players and expansion players.

 

Some people only play PvP. If they were given 100% of content in PvP, there would be little incentive to buy the expacs.

I don't know why someone resurrected this thread after 2 months of no comments and no changes in game, but my stance is still the same.

1) there are plenty of core specs still viable - warrior, guard and thief all have builds utilizing only the core trait lines. I'm sure some in this thread will shoot down those ideas because "they are not listed as meta on metabattle". A selection of players assume that if it's not META, it must be unplayable.

2)Expac =/= P2W. There are 2 expacs with a tonne of content for a very reasonable price over the last _six_ years. Elite specs are just part of that content. P2W is usually an endless climb where cash items give you an advantage and the more you pay, the more you gain.

 

I don't think ANet purposely make new Elites better than old to make expacs more attractive, it's just sometimes new specs are found to be more useful in certain circumstances.