Thief worries me. It will dominate hard.

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > > > > Am I the only one that thinks that making both flanking and larcenous unblockable was a bad idea? Obviously I'm biased as a guardian player but a well-played s/d thief literally hardcounters the entire guardian class no matter how skilled the player.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Anyway, the combination of damage, unblockability, spammability, sustain and mobility of s/d thief leads me to think that something should be nerfed. Imo, since d/p has an established role as burst, I think s/d should be pushed more towards a dps/bruiser role rather than burst and that the damage of larcenous should be the focus of balancing rather than nerfing sustain of s/d thief.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Here are some suggestions and why:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > * Make Larcenous blockable: Would stop s/d thief from hardcountering the entire guardian class. A thief could still wait out a block, use basi, or auto attack (to remove aegis) to work around larcenous being blockable.

> > > > > > > * Reduce the amount of time larcenous strike is available to be used after flanking strike: This could be done in tandem with another nerf or buff.

> > > > > > > * Add a cd to larcenous: a short cd would stop the spammability and force a s/d thief to rely on auto attack a bit more.

> > > > > > > * An alternative to the above - increase initiative cost of larcenous strike by 1 or 2: would stop spam a bit.

> > > > > > > * Reduce the damage on larcenous, increase damage on flanking: This is a rather simple fix that would maintain some dps and decrease burst.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Funny to hear a guardian lobby for thief changes because finally after 5 years of hard countering them you actually have to out play a thief now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I didn't see any "guardian mains" making posts to have themselves nerfed for thieves.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Poetic justice is all this is

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Anyway, my point is that guard never hardcountered thief

> > > >

> > > > I can't take you seriously after this post after reading you down play the longest standing hard counter in the game.

> > > >

> > > > You are losing due to your own skill level not being better than the thief you are fighting. Not b/c you are being hard countered

> > >

> > > Actually he is correct.

> >

> > He's correct in what? That bunker guardian didn't hard counter thief....it just couldn't be killed by it?

> >

> > He killed any argument or point he could ever make on the subject with those statements

>

> Bunker guard could never kill thief, but could just make them run away since they were wasting time. In terms of the current guardian vs thief, thief has every tool to simple dismantle guardian. Traditionally thief didn't have great access to condi removal but now that is not the case, so another one of their weaknesses was removed. With evade spam, mobility, stealth, access to condition removal and extremely high damage a thief should beat a guardian. And this is looking at it from a pure design stand point.

>

> What exactly does guardian currently have to hard counter thief? It use to be block but larcenous strike alone hard counters guardian. Unblockable, high damage AND boon removal. From the current direction the game has headed, only a thief can counter a thief.

>

 

You've never played thief have you

[Aza.2105]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> You've never played thief have you

 

I pretty much play the game to test skills and changes in pvp. What about you?

 

 

[Exciton.8942]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Exciton.8942" said:

> > The sword 3 boon steal behavior should probably get normalized, like bountiful theft.

> >

> > Currently, you steal all stacks of boon and whole duration with sword 3. With bountiful theft, you only get 1 stack with a set duration. I think they really should make sword 3 behave the same as bountiful theft.

> >

> > As for S/D thief in general, I guess it depends on how D/P becomes after the update. People will go D/P if they can kill things easily and as you said, D/P probably beats S/D.

>

> The only reason Bountiful Theft does not steal the whole stack is because it shares the boons with up to 5 allies. The full-stack boon steal absolutely should remain for a self-only steal. What's next? Boon corrupt now only corrupts 1 stack at a time?

 

Scourge has similar trait which also only grants a set stack and duration of a boon.

 

BTW, corrupt also only corrupt into a condition with set duration.

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Is S/D really OP? Or is it just high risk high reward?

 

I'll tell ya, I'm a lot more concerned with Mesmers avoiding nerfs in the proposed changes than I am with S/D Thief.

 

[Velimere.7685]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Is S/D really OP? Or is it just high risk high reward?

>

> I'll tell ya, I'm a lot more concerned with Mesmers avoiding nerfs in the proposed changes than I am with S/D Thief.

 

S/D eats Mesmers for breakfast and also has more evasion uptime, so less risk per reward.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Is S/D really OP? Or is it just high risk high reward?

>

> I'll tell ya, I'm a lot more concerned with Mesmers avoiding nerfs in the proposed changes than I am with S/D Thief.

>

 

It is no risk high reward if you’re not trash.

I also find comments above here very funny people claiming s/d is trash, probably because they think they’re some god tier player and not ever out of gold because of bad matchmaking and if THEY can’t make it work, who can?

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

It's over-performing a bit currently with double-unblockable, but the big thing is that it's dominant solely because every single other build/class can't deal with FB+Scourge on point. It's literally the only thing in the game capable of dispatching a FB without a total slog of a fight.

 

Larcenous is so strong only because everyone has so many boons these days. A few years ago, capping boons was unheard of without multiple players getting involved or playing something like cele ele. So stealing 25 might and long protection was a big play that didn't happen as frequently. Boons and boon builds being overpowered is more of the issue here than the act of stealing boons/stacks. We're at the point boon powercreep is so drastic it's carrying builds to win on nearly every profession. It used to be a busted gimmick for cele ele which brought necros and S/D to the meta to begin with, but basically every class is doing this, except better, and with more defenses in terms of blocks/invulns/etc.

 

With the nerfs to sustain, it may warrant it being reverted. We still don't know exactly what will change.

 

There may also be some pretty hefty indirect nerfs depending on what changes in the meta. The current iteration of S/D runs core thief using CS/Tr/Acro in most cases. With the nerf to Pain Response's cooldown, many thieves may opt into Daredevil for EA's cleanse, which pretty much mandates dropping CS. This has big implications because CS alone accounts for like 30% of the damage a thief can deal on a given hit, sometimes more, which means unblockable FS/LS damage and AA pressure gets cut pretty drastically on top of what are already some AA nerfs. Burst-cleanses are a big deal for this build because of scourge's weakness application. PR removing all DoTs and Withdraw removing all movement-impairing effects allows IReturn or one of the cleanse sigils to pretty much guarantee weakness cleansing when being condi bombed while also just generally keeping the thief alive.

 

The Shadow Shot and HS changes are really quite surprising of all things. D/P isn't out of the meta because it's innately too weak so much as FB shuts everything else down except S/D, so S/D is played to beat FB to carry a team to a win.

 

I wouldn't necessarily declare that thief will dominate anything yet, though. The changes aren't set in stone and are likely to be a bit different come the actual patch.

[Alatar.7364]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> It's over-performing a bit currently with double-unblockable, but the big thing is that it's dominant solely because every single other build/class can't deal with FB+Scourge on point. It's literally the only thing in the game capable of dispatching a FB without a total slog of a fight.

>

> Larcenous is so strong only because everyone has so many boons these days. A few years ago, capping boons was unheard of without multiple players getting involved or playing something like cele ele. So stealing 25 might and long protection was a big play that didn't happen as frequently. Boons and boon builds being overpowered is more of the issue here than the act of stealing boons/stacks. We're at the point boon powercreep is so drastic it's carrying builds to win on nearly every profession. It used to be a busted gimmick for cele ele which brought necros and S/D to the meta to begin with, but basically every class is doing this, except better, and with more defenses in terms of blocks/invulns/etc.

>

> With the nerfs to sustain, it may warrant it being reverted. We still don't know exactly what will change.

>

> There may also be some pretty hefty indirect nerfs depending on what changes in the meta. The current iteration of S/D runs core thief using CS/Tr/Acro in most cases. With the nerf to Pain Response's cooldown, many thieves may opt into Daredevil for EA's cleanse, which pretty much mandates dropping CS. This has big implications because CS alone accounts for like 30% of the damage a thief can deal on a given hit, sometimes more, which means unblockable FS/LS damage and AA pressure gets cut pretty drastically on top of what are already some AA nerfs. Burst-cleanses are a big deal for this build because of scourge's weakness application. PR removing all DoTs and Withdraw removing all movement-impairing effects allows IReturn or one of the cleanse sigils to pretty much guarantee weakness cleansing when being condi bombed while also just generally keeping the thief alive.

>

> The Shadow Shot and HS changes are really quite surprising of all things. D/P isn't out of the meta because it's innately too weak so much as FB shuts everything else down except S/D, so S/D is played to beat FB to carry a team to a win.

>

> I wouldn't necessarily declare that thief will dominate anything yet, though. The changes aren't set in stone and are likely to be a bit different come the actual patch.

 

I agree with most of that, except Thieves running CS/Tr/Acro.

Almost never seen a Thief run a CS, especially with S/D. Isn't running CS a bit of a wasting of a Swindler's Equilibrium in terms of DMG and Utility, both?

I like to run CS in weirdo builds for Fun from time to time, but when stuff needs to be done, especially in Meta, I am quite sure the DA performs better.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Depends on priorities. I find CS quite common, but it could vary by what the thief is trying to do. SE still gives resets to Klepto and SoH which are pretty big. Aside from Mug, Sword pretty much either covers all of what DA does except poison (Immob on IStrike compares to Panic Strike, Weakness on AA3 compares to Lotus Poison), so CS is just better at dealing damage and nuking through firebrands for as much as possible. Improv has a 20s cooldown so the resets on SE are wasted, and the damage from Executioner is pretty much pointless when comparing it to CS as a whole.

 

Both work, and DA may be able to flex more burst into non-FB/block matchups, but there's huge value in putting higher burst emphasis on the FS/LS combo than maybe having Mug blocked and effectively waste a trait line. I guess Mug is good into some matchups running crit immunity like ele and balanced stance war, but tbh these are pretty fringe for what S/D thief should be trying to do.

 

 

[babazhook.6805]

S/d works with a number of combinations of traitlines and I find this the case moreso than many other thief weapon set. TR would likely be the most common traitline in every build and SA likely the least but I think everything else is there in more or less equal measure. CS, DD, DA, DE and Acro all have good things going for them in an S/d build and of those five I think DA the least of the them overall.

 

It remains to be seen what the higher ICD on PR and Instant reflexes will do. It my opinion the line still worth taking albeit It will certainly not be as effective. Obiously this all depends on how many of the proposed changes in fact implemented and what others might be added.

 

I would point out that DE using S/d gives access to mercy which is another steal reset. SOH and Unforgiving with BV as elite gives access to a lot of stuns with quickness and a major reason i like the DE line in my own s/d build. I am likely to keep Acro even if the proposed changes implemented due to swindlers and immob immunity via don't stop. The sword #2 add of swiftness makes don't stop much more effective.

 

The changes to Malice have helped to make Malicious restoration a bit more usable. While I currently use withdraw if those changes to PR come through and make those cleanses less reliable I might rely on Don't stop more and try out Malicious restoration to get some Condition cleanse back. It a wait and see,

[ImperialWL.7138]

....Who the fuck runs critical strikes on SD thief......? Hello?

[ImperialWL.7138]

What the fuck are you all running, like seriously pain response? You need condi cleanse on SD thief.. ? Lmao

[Elxdark.9702]

> @"ImperialWL.7138" said:

> What the kitten are you all running, like seriously pain response? You need condi cleanse on SD thief.. ? Lmao

 

im pretty sure those guys are wvw players.

 

Anyway s/d is fine just decrease or even remove the 20% damage boost on LS I personally think it's unnecessary.

[shadowpass.4236]

Infiltrator's Strike needs to teleport and then have a slash animation that applies the immobilize. The teleport shouldn't be the attack because that means that the only way to avoid it is through prediction rather than reaction (which is a bad design).

 

Flanking Strike's hit shouldn't be unblockable, but connecting with the ability should turn it into Larcenous Strike. This prevents both attacks from hitting but still allows for counterplay from both parties.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Infiltrator's Strike needs to teleport and then have a slash animation that applies the immobilize. The teleport shouldn't be the attack because that means that the only way to avoid it is through prediction rather than reaction (which is a bad design).

>

> Flanking Strike's hit shouldn't be unblockable, but connecting with the ability should turn it into Larcenous Strike. This prevents both attacks from hitting but still allows for counterplay from both parties.

 

Fun fact it the teleport on Infiltraor’s Strike isnt what applies the immob, and already works as you propose, it has to land the actual attack after the teleport to cause the immob.

[Turk.5460]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > Infiltrator's Strike needs to teleport and then have a slash animation that applies the immobilize. The teleport shouldn't be the attack because that means that the only way to avoid it is through prediction rather than reaction (which is a bad design).

> >

> > Flanking Strike's hit shouldn't be unblockable, but connecting with the ability should turn it into Larcenous Strike. This prevents both attacks from hitting but still allows for counterplay from both parties.

>

> Fun fact it the teleport on Infiltraor’s Strike isnt what applies the immob, and already works as you propose, it has to land the actual attack after the teleport to cause the immob.

 

Yeah and it's fairly simple to dodge the actual hit by reaction if you know that the enemy Thief is using Sword.

[joeherbert.6431]

Thieves are sneaky and competitive, especially the really good ones... but I haven't noticed anything I would consider overpowered or "dominating hard" -- they seem to be in a good place based on my encounters with them.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"ImperialWL.7138" said:

> What the kitten are you all running, like seriously pain response? You need condi cleanse on SD thief.. ? Lmao

 

If you are in the Acro line anyways, whether it WvW or PvP you have to take something in the first slot. If in WvW PR is great because you see more conditions. If in PvP you would likely want instant rflexes. Both of those have proposed changes incoming. That said even in Pvp PR in s/d along with withdraw or don't stop likely means you need no other cleanses.

 

One reason to take CS over DA (and there are others) is for added quickness. TOTC becomes moot if you have a near full uptime of Fury and CS can add both fury and might meaning BOA or uncatchable freed up in TR. I really like quickness in s/d. After a BV stun on opening you can lay in a lot of damage with quickness running.

 

I would point out tha even on the Metabattle site it suggest PR can be used in place of Instant reflexes and that s/d build uses sigils that are providing might stacks which CS can grant you via Assassins fury. Taking one traitline over another is also about what sigils runes and utility spots can be freed up for others .

[Lighter.5631]

tbh fair, most passive defenses are required because thief/mesmer exists anyway, so they nerf those = buff thief/mesmer

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

 

> > Anyway, my point is that guard never hardcountered thief

>

> I can't take you seriously after this post after reading you down play the longest standing hard counter in the game.

>

> You are losing due to your own skill level not being better than the thief you are fighting. Not b/c you are being hard countered

 

Since you clearly can't be bothered to read a thorough post, lemme tl;dr it for you:

 

Classes do NOT counter classes. Specific builds counter specific builds. Medi guard/medi trapper countered marauder's thief and marauder's DD regardless of trait setup, or utilities, I'll give you that. However, condi thief running perplexity runes was a hard counter for medi guard and after the sword/panic strike/shortbow buffs, condi thief was a soft-counter to most any guard builds. Additionally, after sword buffs, S/D power thief played well completely hard-countered any guard build (if medi-trapper and core guard can't beat it, honestly nothing else on guard even has the potential to do so).

[Jinks.2057]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

>

> > > Anyway, my point is that guard never hardcountered thief

> >

> > I can't take you seriously after this post after reading you down play the longest standing hard counter in the game.

> >

> > You are losing due to your own skill level not being better than the thief you are fighting. Not b/c you are being hard countered

>

> Since you clearly can't be bothered to read a thorough post, lemme tl;dr it for you:

>

> Classes do NOT counter classes. Specific builds counter specific builds. Medi guard/medi trapper countered marauder's thief and marauder's DD regardless of trait setup, or utilities, I'll give you that. However, condi thief running perplexity runes was a hard counter for medi guard and after the sword/panic strike/shortbow buffs, condi thief was a soft-counter to most any guard builds. Additionally, after sword buffs, S/D power thief played well completely hard-countered any guard build (if medi-trapper and core guard can't beat it, honestly nothing else on guard even has the potential to do so).

 

And I am saying in the previous 5 years if my child lost to a thief while playing Guardian I would get them tested for a mental handicap. The counter is that hard.

 

Pretty much threw out your entire argument after the whole perplexity runes thing since we aren't talking WvW here.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> >

> > > > Anyway, my point is that guard never hardcountered thief

> > >

> > > I can't take you seriously after this post after reading you down play the longest standing hard counter in the game.

> > >

> > > You are losing due to your own skill level not being better than the thief you are fighting. Not b/c you are being hard countered

> >

> > Since you clearly can't be bothered to read a thorough post, lemme tl;dr it for you:

> >

> > Classes do NOT counter classes. Specific builds counter specific builds. Medi guard/medi trapper countered marauder's thief and marauder's DD regardless of trait setup, or utilities, I'll give you that. However, condi thief running perplexity runes was a hard counter for medi guard and after the sword/panic strike/shortbow buffs, condi thief was a soft-counter to most any guard builds. Additionally, after sword buffs, S/D power thief played well completely hard-countered any guard build (if medi-trapper and core guard can't beat it, honestly nothing else on guard even has the potential to do so).

>

> And I am saying in the previous 5 years if my child lost to a thief while playing Guardian I would get them tested for a mental handicap. The counter is that hard.

>

> Pretty much threw out your entire argument after the whole perplexity runes thing since we aren't talking WvW here.

 

From what I recall, condi thief wasn't hard-countered by guard in pvp either. It's not a very fast victory for the thief, if at all since damage is all-round lower in pvp but it's definitely not as one-sided as medi guard vs. power d/p thief.

 

And my last point about S/D thief most definitely holds true in pvp, probably moreso than in wvw.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > @"Arcaedus.7290" said:

> > >

> > > > > Anyway, my point is that guard never hardcountered thief

> > > >

> > > > I can't take you seriously after this post after reading you down play the longest standing hard counter in the game.

> > > >

> > > > You are losing due to your own skill level not being better than the thief you are fighting. Not b/c you are being hard countered

> > >

> > > Since you clearly can't be bothered to read a thorough post, lemme tl;dr it for you:

> > >

> > > Classes do NOT counter classes. Specific builds counter specific builds. Medi guard/medi trapper countered marauder's thief and marauder's DD regardless of trait setup, or utilities, I'll give you that. However, condi thief running perplexity runes was a hard counter for medi guard and after the sword/panic strike/shortbow buffs, condi thief was a soft-counter to most any guard builds. Additionally, after sword buffs, S/D power thief played well completely hard-countered any guard build (if medi-trapper and core guard can't beat it, honestly nothing else on guard even has the potential to do so).

> >

> > And I am saying in the previous 5 years if my child lost to a thief while playing Guardian I would get them tested for a mental handicap. The counter is that hard.

> >

> > Pretty much threw out your entire argument after the whole perplexity runes thing since we aren't talking WvW here.

>

> From what I recall, condi thief wasn't hard-countered by guard in pvp either. It's not a very fast victory for the thief, if at all since damage is all-round lower in pvp but it's definitely not as one-sided as medi guard vs. power d/p thief.

>

> And my last point about S/D thief most definitely holds true in pvp, probably moreso than in wvw.

 

A slow victory for the thief is an actual victory for the other class because the thief can't sit on the node like a guard would.

 

Another comment about thief from ppl who clearly don't understand the class

[bluri.2653]

Pls buff teef we are very weak sd noob build cant kill ppl

[Kondor.2904]

Remove ecto from the game. Thank you.