Scourge - The Fundamental Problem and Why Numbers Changes Won't Fix It (sPvP)

[Coolguy.8702]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

 

>

> I was voting for the lesser of two evils.I myself don't want scourge nerfed, but i know its going to come.better to have something else like radius reduced or cc or number 3 than 5 or 1 which would wreck scourge 5 would put massive cooldowns on everything including cc, and it would be like reaper all over.

>

> Out of all solutions 3 and 2 are the best ones.

 

He acts like it's just scourge that's op, he plays a frickin Holosmith (which will be nerfed as well). This thread is pointless considering his and all other classes that aren't ele and rev are going to receive some big nerfs which will hopefully make the game semi balanced for once

[Axl.8924]

> @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

>

> >

> > I was voting for the lesser of two evils.I myself don't want scourge nerfed, but i know its going to come.better to have something else like radius reduced or cc or number 3 than 5 or 1 which would wreck scourge 5 would put massive cooldowns on everything including cc, and it would be like reaper all over.

> >

> > Out of all solutions 3 and 2 are the best ones.

>

> He acts like it's just scourge that's op, he plays a frickin Holosmith (which will be nerfed as well). This thread is pointless considering his and all other classes that aren't ele and rev are going to receive some big nerfs which will hopefully make the game semi balanced for once

 

No doubt scourge has its issues, but its a severe problem that can't be cured easily without nerfing other stuff.I think boons will have to be nerfed hard to make boon corrupt become less important.

 

Good luck convincing non necros and Anet not to nerf scourge too hard.

[Aeolus.3615]

I liked solution 3, maybe some minimal uptime of shade can still be aplyed like 3 seconds, bot not 10 sec per ammo.

Or every time a scourge uses shade with the ammo bar filled, those 3 seconds of shade could happen increased CD to 5 when this happens.

[Imperadordf.2687]

Solution #5

 

Remove Sand Savant

Increase Scourge’s damage

[Dristig.9678]

I'd rather see a version of three where Sand Savant doesn't increase the radius of the AOE around the Necromancer too. That aspect of the skill doesn't even make sense.

[hazethetiger.4806]

I really do like your post and the intention you put behind it, great points suggestions and trying to de-fang your come at the "Scourge" problem though I don't understand your thinking behind "I want Scourge to be strong, but not as strong as it is considering how little effort is involved in playing it." This in itself is a double handed slap in the face hidden with an attempt at good intentions.

 

How is there no skill associated with this class once you get past silver? How far have you gotten on playing just scourge in PvP? I know for myself personally I ended up swapping to my Ranger and Warrior after I got into the high gold and low plat ranges because I had an easier time of going up the ranks yet I'm not seeing the humongous cry to nerf Rangers and Warriors, no where near what I see for Scourge. (I'm no where near amazing but you would think I would have some inkling of what is happening in a PvP match when you are in Plat right?!?! I could be wrong though....) People seem to think scourge just sit there and slam their head against the keyboard at all times and get wins raining down from the sky. This may be the case in bronze and silver but not so after the fact, scourge don't have that many fancy dynamic moves to show "skill" most of it is situational awareness and timing, two things that are really REALLY hard to see as an opponent.

 

People seem to only focus on scourge at the climax of their kit where they have full life force, they have themselves situated on a PvP point, and they are going up against a melee 1v1. That apparently is how any PvP match for a scourge plays out in their opponents heads and why people feel enraged and are STILL jumping on the nerf scourge bandwagons. They don't care about the matches where that same scourge that dominated the match before can't even get to a point because a PP / Rifle Thief or Ranger has decided to be their best friend the whole game, they don't see the horrific lack of escapes, evades, and defense that scourge do not have once that life force runs out and they have to build up to begin with, they also seem to forget that every PvP match everyone is hyper focusing on any necro they find because it was OP to start, they don't care about HOW SLOW the class is as a whole. They just know they get bombed with Condi, which everyone hates, and they are super mad about it and claim it's a no skill class that is OP when in reality they can just play smart and to their team comp and easily beat any scourge they come across with that shocking thing called teamwork (this goes for beating any class in the game).

 

I'm all for fine tuning and adjusting any class, scourge needed it badly when it first came out, but when is the class balanced? In your mind it seems this class, due to its apparent lack of skill needed, should be regulated to not perform beyond a certain level, maybe silver? From there maybe you get gud on another class that the rest of the community likes to fight against with their own preferred main. So again, when is this class balanced? At what point will people say "yep, that seems fair" and leave scourge alone? Cause as I see it they won't be happy till it's dead and gone from PvP which may very well happen.

[Kahyos.1437]

> @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

>

> >

> > I was voting for the lesser of two evils.I myself don't want scourge nerfed, but i know its going to come.better to have something else like radius reduced or cc or number 3 than 5 or 1 which would wreck scourge 5 would put massive cooldowns on everything including cc, and it would be like reaper all over.

> >

> > Out of all solutions 3 and 2 are the best ones.

>

> He acts like it's just scourge that's op, he plays a frickin Holosmith (which will be nerfed as well). This thread is pointless considering his and all other classes that aren't ele and rev are going to receive some big nerfs which will hopefully make the game semi balanced for once

 

Being someone who enjoys rev and ele, I hope so lol.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> >

> > Did you not read all of 3's description? Barrier, condi cleanses, and buffs would still apply to a scourge outside of the sand shade, but no offensive shade skills would apply. And I'd be in favor of buffs to its survivability if such a nerf were chosen. The amount of damage a scourge can put out when stunlocked is ridiculous. There's no counterplay to it.

>

> That wouldn't make any sense at all, that would mean shade skills would have to be reworked. Ever consider the reason why scourge can put out so much damage when stunlocked is because they have the least amount of access to *stability, mobility and stunbreaks* .Try rolling a scourge yourself, the amount of cc people can put on you is kitten stupid (it's like once every .5 seconds) Although I could see Sand Savant being reworked (since that's what most people complain about), in exchange for something worthwhile

 

Every scourge runs trail of anguish and plague signet. Tell me... stability and stunbreaks mean anything to you? They typically don't need to sit in the middle of combat like a melee class, so their stunbreak and stability is more than adequate. The shade skills as they exist are just having their cake and eating it too. Reaper arguably needs better ways to stunbreak/stab than scourge does.

 

Mobility is a separate issue which has always been a problem for necros (and guardians and engineers, the three slowest classes), but has little to do with the design of the shade skills.

 

And I have rolled a scourge, for two seasons even. It was mind-numbingly easy, even after nerfs. The stuns/CC? The same as any other caster class would experience. Thieves are your biggest hassle, but they always have been for necro (natural rock-paper-scissors).

 

> @"Coolguy.8702" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

>

> >

> > I was voting for the lesser of two evils.I myself don't want scourge nerfed, but i know its going to come.better to have something else like radius reduced or cc or number 3 than 5 or 1 which would wreck scourge 5 would put massive cooldowns on everything including cc, and it would be like reaper all over.

> >

> > Out of all solutions 3 and 2 are the best ones.

>

> He acts like it's just scourge that's op, he plays a frickin Holosmith (which will be nerfed as well). This thread is pointless considering his and all other classes that aren't ele and rev are going to receive some big nerfs which will hopefully make the game semi balanced for once

 

Holo can be made balanced with a damage shave, heat increases, and a range reduction. Those are **numbers** changes. The mechanic itself is not broken, it just needs tuning.

 

The problem with scourge is that its entire mechanic is the problem. No number adjustment is going to fix the issue without also breaking the scourge's ability to function. Its mechanic needs a fundamental redesign to encourage skilled play and discourge the current braindead state it exists in. I don't want scourge dead, or broken, or useless. I want it to actually operate like any other class and require a degree of intelligence to use to its utmost.

 

Oh, and no, I don't think Scourge is the only OP class. Spellbreaker, FB, Holo, Shatter Mesmer, and Druid all need reductions in their capabilities. The thing is that with those other specs, they can be fixed with numbers changes. Scourge is the one that stands out because its fundamental mechanic is the problem.

[JETWING.2759]

Barrier!

 

Better scaling formula for Barrier forces the Scourge to choise between "Heal Power" or "CondiDamage".

 

[DeadlySynz.3471]

"The shade skills are offense, defense, healing, and utility all crammed into one, and cannot be countered in any way, shape, or form. There is no counterplay to them,"

 

Yes there is, it's called ranged. It's by design, for a class that has little to no mobility, no defense against ranged, and very little means to break CC, it seems fitting that the best defense is a good offense. The very counter to the shade is to have it between you and the necro and you pepper the kitten out of them with ranged attacks. But as people fail to realize time and time again, the way you deal with Scourge is a ranged class, which I know, people gasp at the idea of playing a ranger or a ranged spec'd thief.

 

The behavior of the scourge right now is no different than the brain-dead melee ball we had to suffer through for years, where they'd leap in and spam 1, skilled game play at it's finest with no counter-play. You playing as an engineer (if you played the first 3 years when WvW came out), should know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

Something players need to realize, not every class has a hard counter to every other class. Scourge is a hard counter to melee, not even against an engineer. The hard counter to a scourge is ranged, and the hard counter to the ranged is melee. We can't expect a class to have a supreme all mighty counter to every class or build in the game. If people have a problem with scourge, get on a ranged class.

 

I would love it if Anet just blocked the use of warriors, guardians, revs, ele's, and mesmers, and imposed the use of only rangers, thieves, and necros for a month, both in PvP and WvW. Players need to understand there are other classes in the game, because it seems many of you forget rangers or thieves even exist.

[Shaogin.2679]

Option 3 needs to happen. Personally don't think they need any benefits of shade skills if they are not within range of their shades. If shade skills didn't pulse from the Scourge himself, then it would require the player to actually put consideration into where and when he should place a shade, and possibly even consider taking something other than Sand Savant.

[Nico Cunen.2589]

Number 3 for sure. As a mainly Necro player, I think it would shave a good amount of the"OPness", while still being enjoyable to play (if not even more so than right now).

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> "The shade skills are offense, defense, healing, and utility all crammed into one, and cannot be countered in any way, shape, or form. There is no counterplay to them,"

 

> Yes there is, it's called ranged. It's by design, for a class that has little to no mobility, no defense against ranged, and very little means to break CC, it seems fitting that the best defense is a good offense. The very counter to the shade is to have it between you and the necro and you pepper the kitten out of them with ranged attacks. But as people fail to realize time and time again, the way you deal with Scourge is a ranged class, which I know, people gasp at the idea of playing a ranger or a ranged spec'd thief.

 

Ranged is not actually "counterplay" to the shade skills. Why?

 

* Not every class has good ranged options. Engineer and warrior in particular have some of the worst ranged options right now.

* Scourge also has ranged capabilities. Manifest sand shade is 900 range, meaning your ranged must be >900 range to have maximum potential against a scourge. If I run a pistol engineer (lul!), I'm still getting slammed by sand shades. Only a few classes have this viability at that large a distance. Why does Scourge get to have its cake and eat it too?

* Designing your build to be effective at ranged often means severe limitations on your potential elsewhere, particularly melee. Why is scourge so different from every other spec in that it demands only a single form of counterplay?

* If you get caught at melee range by a scourge, you don't magically appear at ranged distance, providing little counterplay for scenarios such as that. The only class that can "magically" do that is thief, which already tends to have a natural advantage against thief.

 

I get that necros don't generally have a lot of defenses against ranged damage, but only a few specs do.

 

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> The behavior of the scourge right now is no different than the brain-dead melee ball we had to suffer through for years, where they'd leap in and spam 1, skilled game play at it's finest with no counter-play. You playing as an engineer (if you played the first 3 years when WvW came out), should know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

I don't play WvW. I'm talking strictly about sPvP. And I played a condi engineer in PvP prior to HoT -- which almost invariably died to necro then too. :tongue:

 

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Something players need to realize, not every class has a hard counter to every other class. Scourge is a hard counter to melee, not even against an engineer. The hard counter to a scourge is ranged, and the hard counter to the ranged is melee. We can't expect a class to have a supreme all mighty counter to every class or build in the game. If people have a problem with scourge, get on a ranged class

>

> I would love it if Anet just blocked the use of warriors, guardians, revs, ele's, and mesmers, and imposed the use of only rangers, thieves, and necros for a month, both in PvP and WvW. Players need to understand there are other classes in the game, because it seems many of you forget rangers or thieves even exist.

 

Thief has always been a natural rock-paper-scissors winner against necro. Deadeye continues the trend. That alone is nothing new.

 

Your solution is to have us all play rangers and thieves? I'm not sure that's a solution. You can't switch classes mid-match, and when I watch/play AT's, scourge tends to get countered by other scourges, not as much rangers or thieves as you would suggest. Scourge is perhaps the only spec asking us to change our fundamental build design and team composition around it. You can build counters for every other class into your build, but scourge? Nah, go roll something else brah.

[Math.5123]


This is not healthy for the game. Just remove the Sand Savant trait.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> 

> This is not healthy for the game. Just remove the Sand Savant trait.

 

My eyes burn.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

I'll add my own coin to this by picking the third solution ... BUT not removing the necro centered shade but just making the increased range trait not affecting the scourge just the summoned sandshade :) (and increasing maybe by 2-3 sec the cd before being able to cast another sandshade)

[MithranArkanere.8957]

The solution is splitting all that power into the 3 grandmaster traits.

 

The scourge would still have all their powers, but the would greatly reduced with less barrier, longer cooldowns and less spammability, and one trait would bring back the large barriers, one the condition spam, and the other the boon removal spam.

[padreadamo.3986]

Light Fields should remove all offense fields under it or at least render the area safe. There needs to be counter-play.

[Abazigal.3679]

I'm going to say my old argument, but remove any slowing down condition from scourges and it will fix 75% of the issue. The big problem is that you usually can't run away if you did 1 mistake ( which is sometimes simply being hit..) since you have either crippling either cold. The same when you try to revive a teammate. You notice scourge was there, you get xx conditions + can't run away.

 

So obviously, some builds can deal with that problem, but not every single build can..

[Highlie.7641]

> @"padreadamo.3986" said:

> Light Fields should remove all offense fields under it or at least render the area safe. There needs to be counter-play.

 

I like the idea, There is a game called divinity out, where you can remove or Move fields, it add's alot of depth.

Removing fields / stealing fields, should be the job of reverant. as they really don't have a unique feature atm.

[zabandija.9623]

> @"psyt.9415" said:

> Lower radius. The fact it completely envelops the capture circles is stupid. Take resistance off the conversion table and option 3. Problem solved.

 

Besides all metrics, the radius is insane. You go to pvp: all the floor is lava, you go to wvw: all the world is lava.

[MyPuppy.8970]

I'd be fine with just removing access to 1 or 2 conditions. Same with specs that can fart every boon in the game in one button press. There was a time when boons and conditions had to be managed properly to be effective. There is just too much of everything in one single skill nowadays. Make the team combos and beautiful moves more valuable.

[Axl.8924]

> @"MyPuppy.8970" said:

> I'd be fine with just removing access to 1 or 2 conditions. Same with specs that can fart every boon in the game in one button press. There was a time when boons and conditions had to be managed properly to be effective. There is just too much of everything in one single skill nowadays. Make the team combos and beautiful moves more valuable.

 

Scourges were already nerfed in condis.Problem is that a lot of people have millions of boons so it turns into millions of conditions.

[Erzian.5218]

The real mystery is how a class that is designed to spam AoE is supposed to be healthy for a game mode where your goal is to stand in small circles.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Fortunately, anet is trying to improve it. The delay was a MASSIVE step in the right direction.

 

But honestly scourge is just bad game design and should have been scrapped at conception. The fact that scourge can still dish out 6+ condi bombs **while the scourge is CCed** should have raised a red flag taller than Mt.Everest to the balance team. Shade skills can't be interrupted, Can't be blocked if the scourge is any good ( They will just disrupt the block ), Can't be killed, and before the last update couldn't be reliably dodged either. Things that lack realistic counterplay are always bad for PvP not just because they are unbalanced but because they remove skill from the game making it less fun.

 

I'm all for reworking it until it's fine, but frankly would not be sad in the least bit if this spec just got smiters booned out of existence and reaper buffed to compensate.